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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 22:01:39 GMT -5
Ggold... No problem... starting a separate thread like his just made sense. I've collected a lot of positive memes over the last few years, and I know that they have helped me to either change my thinking or to stay focused on better thoughts or truths.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 21:55:22 GMT -5
Awesome! I'm glad you've reached that point, Ggold. One thing you *can* control is to focus on yourself and do (a lot) more things on "becoming a better you". Regular weekly exercise I think is the #1 best thing people can do. This is advice I would give to *anybody*, having gone through what I have and having done that myself. Forget about where you're at (e.g. if you're currently in good physical shape or not)... just start doing it. You *will* feel *physically* better the more you exercise, which helps you feel *mentally* and *emotionally* better as well. And regardless of whether your current marriage / relationship lasts, any spouse / partner (e.g. your current one, or the next one if that situation plays out) will find you to be a bit more desirable if you're in better physical shape. AND you may cause your current spouse / partner to pause and start thinking about what's going on (e.g. is my refused spouse starting to become more attractive for *someone else*? Is my spouse flirting with *someone else*? If you plant the seed that there may be some competition, your refuser spouse just *may* start to act a little differently and *give you some lovin'* that you need. TL2 Oh no!!!! I don't want any lovin' from him!!! That's way over!! Doh! Well, OK then... Pardon my ignorance there. Glad you're on a better path, no matter what. I've been sporadic when popping in here on this forum so I apologize for not knowing what stage you were at. I guess I was just thinking back to when I first started making some changes like that... and didn't care if the marriage necessarily worked out or not... I was determined to focus on becoming a better me, which helps you either way the marriage works out. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 15:01:13 GMT -5
I think a good test is, "Do they make you want to be a better person?" I think it's a fair expectation that marriage should give energy, not drain it. A la, "The whole should be greater than the sum of the parts." I'm so broken from being in a SM. If anyone wants to make me be a better person, it's ME. My marriage definitely is draining my energy. I find uplifting energy from sources outside my marriage. (friends, hobbies, exercising, my kids, my work, etc.) Awesome! I'm glad you've reached that point, Ggold. One thing you *can* control is to focus on yourself and do (a lot) more things on "becoming a better you". Regular weekly exercise I think is the #1 best thing people can do. This is advice I would give to *anybody*, having gone through what I have and having done that myself. Forget about where you're at (e.g. if you're currently in good physical shape or not)... just start doing it. You *will* feel *physically* better the more you exercise, which helps you feel *mentally* and *emotionally* better as well. And regardless of whether your current marriage / relationship lasts, any spouse / partner (e.g. your current one, or the next one if that situation plays out) will find you to be a bit more desirable if you're in better physical shape. AND you may cause your current spouse / partner to pause and start thinking about what's going on (e.g. is my refused spouse starting to become more attractive for *someone else*? Is my spouse flirting with *someone else*? If you plant the seed that there may be some competition, your refuser spouse just *may* start to act a little differently and *give you some lovin'* that you need. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 14:48:53 GMT -5
I like these sort of uplifting statements. But the unfortunate fact seems to be that it is the negative motivation an ILIASM shithole produces that is the trigger to get out - rather than the positive motivation of hope for a better future life. - I'd like to find a meme that would put the fear of God into a refused spouse about the consequences of staying. Hmm... Baz, if I see a meme that anywhere resembles that idea I'll be sure to post. The original meme I posted above... is kind of the "nice version" of what I was feeling when I stepped up to the plate and started shaking things up with my marriage. I told myself I wasn't going to take this s*** any longer. So the nicer phrased version: "I am not going to stay where I am..." Some version of that thought is the first step of either changing the fundamentals of your relationship or getting out of the relationship. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2016 17:25:18 GMT -5
ggold just posted a meme she was going to print out / keep front and center as a motivational reminder. That got me wondering if anyone posted a thread on motivational memes yet. I didn't see a thread established yet for that idea. So, I guess I'll start one. Here's a meme that I think starts with step #1 of dealing with a SM. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2016 16:58:03 GMT -5
Very true. That reminded me of the following meme someone else sent me a while back.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 3, 2016 16:29:27 GMT -5
I originally posted this story on EP 3 years ago. Given the holiday weekend I thought it was appropriate to re-post. For those who don't know, my situation has since changed and it's no longer a SM. We've been having sex about once a week for a few years now. This story shows some common frustration I think many of us have when we're refused for a ridiculous reason. I wrote this story about 4 months before I put my foot down and started refusing my refuser the daily "kisses and hugs" she needed from me. I'll re-post the story below and also include the original EP link with comments if anyone's interested. www.experienceproject.com/stories/Live-In-A-Sexless-Marriage/3294275TL2 4th Of July - No "Fireworks" TonightThere are so many good analogies to fireworks and loveā¦ But there are no "fireworks" happening with us this evening... or tomorrow night I'm sure. This evening my wife and I and our two kids are going out to see a fireworks show, so it will be a somewhat late-night and I'm sure my wife will not be in the mood for sex. Why should she? We've only had sex twice this year (nothing in the last 4 months) and I'm sure she'll be tired tonight after the fireworks. Too bad we can't create our own fireworks. That spark never crosses her mind. Well, if the evenings don't work, then the mornings should be good, right? Wrong. Case in point: When her alarm went off this morning at 6:00 and the kids were sleeping in until 8:00, she was awake but there was "no time" for sex. In fact, on a holiday / the 4th of July, there was barely enough time for some kissing, snuggling, and holding each other in bed. She told me that "she needed to get going and start the day" at about 6:20am (after half-heartedly holding each other and some pillow talk)... because there are only a couple of hours in the day when the kids aren't up yet and she can get a lot of things done more easily. She also said that she doesn't want to just kiss and cuddle for 20 minutes, she wants to "do something" with me. HMMM... I can think of a physical activity that we're lacking... but I'll stop there. Shame on me for having my mind in the gutter. However, I do think if I said "let's go for a walk around the neighborhood" that she would find the time to do that. Maybe I'll test that theory tomorrow morning. Tomorrow EVENING will also present another GOLDEN opportunity: my parents are taking the kids for most of the day and we won't see them until the following morning. What do I think the odds are of us making love tomorrow night? Zero. I know how my wife thinks. There will be things to "get done". What do you all think - Should I even "ask" tomorrow? In a way, this is a similar follow up to my story, "No Chance Tonight - Even with the Kids Away." The kids will be away again but I know my wife would say she doesn't feel emotionally connected *enough* to have sex. Forget the fact that we haven't had sex in 4 months and that we had NO sex in 2012... that doesn't enter into the equation.... and that I feel emotionally disconnected from her BECAUSE we haven't had sex in 4 months (and only twice in the last 18+ months). Thanks for listening. Rather than the "fireworks of love" that should be going off in the next day or two, I think our marriage is about to "blow up" pretty soon if nothing changes. I think I will still try to be romantic tomorrow night by going out to dinner and even being romantic afterwards, but I'm not getting any hopes up. There are only so many times you can be rejected and crushed without looking or feeling like a fool. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 29, 2016 23:21:36 GMT -5
Litnerd - I'm going to mention something that seems kind of obvious, but it was something that didn't really sink in with me until my W and I went to counseling. You are your own person. Your spouse is their own person. Your marriage relationship is its own "thing" too... and you BOTH must feed it in order for it to be normal and healthy and survive. If only one person gives to the relationship / feeds the relationship, it will eventually die. You mention that you sometimes haven't brought up certain subjects with your H because you don't want to rock the boat. Well, you really need to do the opposite. You can't put off the difficult conversations forever. Those situations just get worse the longer you put things off. Often times you get the most growth after talking through and working through difficult situations. TL2 This is exactly what I've been working on in therapy. And probably one of my biggest concerns. I've been spending a lot of time and effort working on myself, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage better, but I get really afraid that he won't want/do the same. I know that's not a legitimate excuse to leave things unsaid, which is why my therapist and I have been addressing my communication issues. It's great that you're going to counseling / seeing a therapist, at a minimum. But what you really need - for the best chance at changing things more quickly - is for you both to go to couples counseling. He needs to make a sincere effort at making some changes too, otherwise it's not going to work / you're not going to get what you need. Tell him you need him - in order for your relationship to work - to either go to counseling or to agree to make some changes to make you happy (and you'll make some changes too). Marriages are the prime example of there having to be some give and take / compromise. Marriages work best when each spouse *gives* to the other (unselfishly) what that other person needs (not what *you* need, but what *they* need). Accept that you are different people and you will likely have some different needs. Going to couples counseling should have a much better chance at accelerating the process of reaching some resolution to your issues (rather than just you going). My example: We started going on a weekly basis, and for the first 2 weeks, our counselor saw each of us *separately* to better understand what was wrong from each of our perspectives and what we wanted / needed to change. After the first 2 weeks we started going to joint counseling sessions. After a total of 6 weeks my W / refuser finally saw the light and initiated sex with me for the first time since the early days of our 20 year marriage. Had we not gone to couples counseling, I honestly don't think my W would have changed and we would be divorced right now. There is something about an independent person saying things and challenging both of you on your thinking that can create change. Obviously there is no way you could *physically* force your H to go to counseling, but you could highly encourage it. You need to find out where you have some practical leverage. You need to stop and think about what your H is "getting" out of your marriage relationship... what he really wants or needs. Logically, if a person isn't "getting" enough out of a relationship that person will leave. So he must be getting *enough* where he is staying in the relationship right now. In my situation... How did I highly encourage my refuser / W to go to counseling? I realized that she was "happy enough" by kissing me and hugging me a few times throughout the day.. at morning, at night, and maybe one or two in between. That was her daily "fix" from me. That's what she needed. She didn't (at the time) need sex the way that I needed sex. So I told her in a calm voice one evening (when she was looking for a kiss/hug): "I will no longer kiss you, and I will no longer hug you, until we go to counseling." I didn't kiss her that night, and when I left for work the next morning, saying very few words and walking right out the door without the kiss/hug.. I could see her tears starting to build. I'm sure she cried for a bit when I drove away. And *that* is exactly what she needed to experience... a little bit of pain... a small fraction of the pain that I had been feeling for so many years. After a week or so of that (me refusing her kisses and hugs) we were each getting names of counselors and we were on our way to turning things around. You should really stop and think about your situation and see if you can pull off something similar. We both knew our relationship was in the crapper and we had tried for years to work out things ourselves but we never were successful. Our arguments were always the same and we never got things resolved. An independent counselor is what (primarily) did it. Other helpful things were taking off my wedding ring for a year, and showing her The Bed Song video by Amanda Palmer approximately a week after we started counseling. I also told her (before counseling) that I had told a few friends about our SM (friends that we both knew / were friends with)... so there was an implicit peer pressure kind of thing working too. Hope this gives you some more ideas / hope this helps. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 29, 2016 14:57:10 GMT -5
Litnerd - I'm going to mention something that seems kind of obvious, but it was something that didn't really sink in with me until my W and I went to counseling. You are your own person. Your spouse is their own person. Your marriage relationship is its own "thing" too... and you BOTH must feed it in order for it to be normal and healthy and survive. If only one person gives to the relationship / feeds the relationship, it will eventually die. You mention that you sometimes haven't brought up certain subjects with your H because you don't want to rock the boat. Well, you really need to do the opposite. You can't put off the difficult conversations forever. Those situations just get worse the longer you put things off. Often times you get the most growth after talking through and working through difficult situations. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 28, 2016 21:29:03 GMT -5
Honestly, it sounds like a pressure cooker for both of you. *** We've talked a very little bit. I haven't brought up the porn yet because I just found out a few days ago, but I'm hoping to find some time to talk soon. He works nights, so we don't usually get much time together while the kids are asleep...which is the only chance we have for talking about things. He works nights... and you rarely get to spend time together at night?! Does he work with any females? It's not what you want to hear, but I'm just trying to help peel back the layers of the onion to help you think about and get to the truth. He obviously wasn't being truthful about the libido thing... It was really porn. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 28, 2016 21:25:30 GMT -5
If he's wacking it to porn, he still has a sex drive. He's lying to you about not having a libido. Litnerd - Ditto Angryspartan's comments above. That's the first thing I was thinking as I was reading through your story... was waiting for the bombshell about porn. Bingo. There is usually a reason for sex falling off quickly. I've been reading stories like this for 5 years. The low libido thing... he was covering for something else. I'd also bet that porn is a symptom of some other underlying issues you two need to work through. Get a marriage counselor involved if you want to give a shot at saving your marriage. Ditto the comment about sexless marriage (SM) being a marriage cancer... That's the conclusion I came to years ago and I've been telling people that for years too. If you want any chance at saving your marriage, you've got to treat it as aggressively as actual cancer. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 27, 2016 21:38:27 GMT -5
***
Hope these thoughts help. Sorry you're part of the club, but welcome nonetheless. And in the immortal words of Jimmy Buffet... Why don't we (all) get drunk and screw? LOL!! Great questions and thanks for guiding me into some self reflection.
TL2
I think if you've been around some good websites like this one and the old EP for a year or more you should probably be given an honorary degree in psychology and/or counseling. Glad the questions helped with some self reflection. That is where all changes start, big or small. I think that somehow, if your H is able to surround himself with more positive things and positive messages and positive friends/people, and believes that he can make / accomplish positive changes in his life every day or week (even if slowly), then it may have a spill over effect on other areas too. The hardest steps of a long journey are the first ones. Once you get a little momentum, the following steps get easier. But it starts with digging deep within yourself and making a commitment to doing *something* different. Last year I made a resolution to work out at the gym a minimum of 3 times a week. I've kept that commitment (on average) and I've found that the exercise helps me to be more positive and helps me get through the bad times / times that aren't that great. It sounds like your H already works out, but maybe there's another healthy habit that he might be able to get excited about "accomplishing". If you keep accomplishing things I think you start feeling better about life in general. Re: positive messages, I have my computer change its background to a new positive message meme every 5 minutes (I've accumulated plenty over the years). It helps me to keep some good positive messages fresh in my mind throughout the day. So if I start thinking negative thoughts, these memes often will help "pull me out" before I get stuck in some negative thinking. More random thoughts. Hope they help! TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 27, 2016 16:25:40 GMT -5
[TL2's - HIGHLIGHTS]I have been reading everyone's stories and posts now for days and thought I should go ahead and say hi.... **** Quick intro: Third marriage (2nd was a mulligan and doesn't really count). We've been married 5 years and he is 56 and I am 50. *** now 5 years in with a twice a year frequency *** Physically he works fine, takes testosterone for body building strength, and overall is exceptionally fit. He's happy enough and comfortable with small bits of affection and I am not even really angry at him because I finally understand this is just who he is. *** The last time we really talked about the lack of sex was almost 2 years ago. He explained he's not happy with life, where he lives, his boring job.. *** I warned him my concerns were his lack of interests vs. my strong needs could drive me to seek elsewhere. A few months later an ex contacted me and opened that door. *** My "outsourcer" is married. We met 10 years ago when he was separated from his wife and he ended up returning to the marriage for all the same reasons we all know. Kids were young, etc... We connected during one other time when I was single for awhile and then now for the last year and a half. But, we barely have time to see each other and have only managed every couple of months. *** If physical intimacy is my love language I understand I cannot separate feelings from sex so why after 10 years of a truly spectacular connection with my lover why is he still too uncertain to leave his unhappy marriage? Emma, There are millions of us in this club who have suffered greatly. Your original post is great / has good detail but I pared it down (quoted above) to focus on some points as I see them. Some thoughts in no particular order (feel free to respond to some or all - in whatever detail floats your boat): - Is this a 2nd or 3rd marriage for your H?
- Is he very religious and/or does he have different religious views than you?
- Sounds like he's depressed for several reasons. Any idea on what the 1 or 2 biggest things you or he could do *this month* to change that? Has he ever seen a counselor?
- Has he ever seen a *career* counselor? A lot of men define themselves with their careers. What kind of an industry is he in? Is the Montana move a retirement dream, or something that could be supported with his job / line of work? Would your job allow for such a move?
- Do you make more money than he does?
- Is he otherwise "happy" with your marriage? Any signs that, perhaps for different reasons, he might "regret" having gotten married again?
- Are there other family situations creating stress (parents, siblings, in-laws of any kinds from any marriages, kids' issues, etc.)
- Do you have any other family members living in the home (other than your 1 teen)?
- The last time you talked about sex was 2 years ago. From personal experience, the only way I made progress in my SM was through continued, difficult conversations, with the help of a counselor. I never realistically thought when we started with a counselor that it would make a difference, but it did, and without it I'm sure we'd be in the same terrible place today.
- What do you like most about your H? If the SM were fixed somehow, would you still want to stay with him for the rest of your life, knowing what you know now?
- On the opposite end of the spectrum, what do you dislike the most about your relationship with your H (other than the sex)? No relationship is perfect. Is the combination of this thing, plus the lack of sex, if they both remain unfixed for another year, enough to divorce?
- What do you think H likes most about you? What do you think H gets the most out of his relationship with you?
- On the opposite end of the spectrum, what do you think H dislikes the most about you or your relationship?
Why won't your lover leave his current W? Again, some thoughts in no particular order:
- Life is complicated. I know this all too well because my current situation is still very complicated. Your lover may see your quarterly flings as being the least complicated solution for now that still maintains his sanity and fulfills his intimacy needs.
- It might be possible that your lover has more than 2 women in his life. (I have no idea... just thinking outside the box for possible reasons). If so, might he be trying to figure out *who* he wants to leave his W for... once all of his kids are grown? You mentioned that 10 years ago you reconnected with him, then you weren't involved with him (but perhaps he was involved with a 3rd woman during this time?), and now you reconnected a few years ago? This theory would fit that situation.
- He might simply be waiting for the the kids to be old enough (e.g. graduate HS) where it won't be as difficult for them.
- Could be many other reasons. Again, life is complicated.
Hope these thoughts help. Sorry you're part of the club, but welcome nonetheless. And in the immortal words of Jimmy Buffet... Why don't we (all) get drunk and screw?
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 27, 2016 0:25:47 GMT -5
My mother is arriving tomorrow for a long visit. This means I will behave and pretend because I don't want the lecture on how perfect H is. She adores him. *** This means he is sleeping in my bed so the guest room is open. *** cc - Just curious... When did you start sleeping in different bedrooms? TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 27, 2016 0:15:14 GMT -5
cc a "good guy" does not allow his life's partner to feel lonely and frustrated due to his actions/inactions. It is not you - its him. *** After you make your decision about what you intend to do, you must be very direct with him. No threats, just lay out the facts of the situation and the consequences as you see them. *** You can tell relatives and friends that yes, he is a good guy - he just doesn't love me. And I need to be loved. I've held on dearly for my CPR efforts to work. I think it's made me very ugly and hateful on my bad days. This has made him use this as fuel why it's me and not him. cc - One thing that is *absolutely* true in a dysfunctional marriage: It's both of you that need to change. Even if it's 90% him that needs to change, there's still a little bit of you that could change to be better. Nobody is "perfect". I am saying this because when my refuser W and I went to counseling, we both knew our marriage was in the crapper and neither one of us was happy. Even though I felt that it was 90% my refuser that needed to change, my disillusioned refuser didn't think so.... so I had to at least *say* that out loud (e.g. admit that I could change too, and would work on things). Most people in a dysfunctional relationship don't want to change until the OTHER person goes first. So it's a game of chicken, so to speak. But if you get an independent counselor involved and you both sincerely say that you are both willing to change a bit, THEN your refuser will have the greatest potential to actually change. In my case, all trust was broken / gone because my refuser had refused me our entire marriage (e.g. she had only initiated ONCE in nearly 20 years)(until we turned things around a few years ago). So I really needed her to change first. She had to initiate. I wanted her to want me. Then once she did, I was more than willing to change some things about me too. TL2
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