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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 4, 2016 12:03:51 GMT -5
I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom... timeforliving2 : I appreciate and agree with your reply. But I wanted to add just a personal note. (This may or may not be the angle in which cagedtiger also means it.) *** So... I find that I find myself thinking -- like cagedtiger 's sentiments -- at least I don't want to be "that guy" who was "lying and cheating up 'til the day he got his divorce". In this period, I'm trying to do what is right for my family, get myself in shape: physically and emotionally, financially. I want to become the "me" that would impress the woman that I'd like to meet. I think this is very much in the spirit of JMX 's post " do something kind for future you". **** Dan - I totally understand what you're saying and your position here too. If my situation hadn't turned around I would probably do something similar. Go become the "you" that would be attractive to the next woman you'd like to meet. Go do what seems right for both you and your family. When the cheating aspect comes up I just like to share that nugget of wisdom from when I connected the dots years ago. It helps us to feel empowered to take whatever action we feel is right for us and it properly frames the source of where our marriage issues probably started, especially if someone has been in a SM from the very beginning like I have. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 29, 2016 0:58:52 GMT -5
I think that's true in a lot of cases, but not mine. Before we started dating, my wife was completely single and totally celibate for about 7 years, and that actually started in her last relationship before she called it off. Even at our most sexual, she was still very rarely masturbating (less than once a week), and has never really been very sexually aggressive or assertive. I know that because of her very, very strongly held religious views, she would absolutely never, ever cheat. I am really upset at institutional religion... messed up my marriage too. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 29, 2016 0:45:02 GMT -5
Wow the ultimate bait and switch. I'm a little unclear, are you divorced or separated? Because if you're separated and don't want a no fault divorce, no fault doesn't mean agreeing no one did anything wrong. It just means you don't need to prove any wrongdoing to get a divorce. Either way, wow, it would be hard for me to forgive her too. By "no fault" I did not mean legally, but most people here give their spouses a pass on their enforced celibacy. But most people had at least a few good years. If my wife had changed years after the marriage it would be a more difficult problem. But given the facts of my deal, her motivations were quite clear. Interestingly she emphatically denies she's a golddigger. She also emphatically denies she's asexual. I am separated. On the way out the door I had a 6 hour discussion about our sexless marriage, concentrating on the honeymoon since that removed the opportunity to dredge up everything "wrong" I ever said or did in the ensuing sexless decades. After spending those hours dispensing with all the gaslighting and outright lies and bullshit, I thought I had her backed into a corner where she had no option other than to tell me the truth. She gave me the coldest look I've ever gotten from her and she said..."I had my reasons but I'm never going to tell you"That was all the validation I was to ever get for 3 decades of enforced sexlessness and 15 years of total celibacy. And that was the last time I ever tried to talk about our marriage. I just left. So much for Why Chasing... Beachguy - I felt the chills through the computer screen when I read this. My first reaction is that she may also have been a controlling type of person and this was her one last shot at you to F*** with your head. There may be a reason or on the other hand it may be a bluff and out of spite for you ending the relationship (e.g. she lost control) she is just messing with you. And getting back to your honeymoon... Damn, that's a similar story to mine. There was so much "to do and see" on our honeymoon that we didn't have time for sex. I was young and naive when I got married and, even though we messed around in other respects, I fell for the "let's wait until marriage" line about sex (both of our families were traditionalists / religious). I was an idiot. I liked so many other things about her, though, and it otherwise "felt" right, so I proposed after only a year of dating. Anyway, I feel your pain. Our marriage was a virtual SM right out of the box too. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 29, 2016 0:24:42 GMT -5
CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 ^^^^^ This x1000 BeachGuy - Thanks. As I just mentioned to BBallGirl it took me a long time to connect those dots. Many others on EP helped me to get to that point of realization. Once you do realize this, though, you are very close to being free and/or changing your deal. The balance of power starts to shift. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 29, 2016 0:09:05 GMT -5
CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 Hey TL2, Reading this comment brought back memories and emotions for me. I clearly remember your words on EP and I remember the realization that he broke the vows first. Those words inspired me to outsource which eventually helped me to free myself. So I thank you for those words of wisdom. Bballgirl Bballgirl... You're welcome! We're all here to help each other out right? I can't tell you how many months of reading, responding, writing stories, etc. on EP that it took me to connect all of the dots and put that statement together in that way. As Baz always said, a SM f**ks with your head and for so long we, the refused, think and believe we're the guilty party, that we're doing something wrong (all else being equal). No... we all know now that is not the case. We certainly have rights and choices about what we want to do about the situation, but if we decide to outsource it is clearly *in response to* our refuser's unfaithfulness / cheating, which came first. If our spouses were being faithful to the marriage, we would not be outsourcing, separating, divorcing, etc. I'm so glad you have freed yourself! While I am doing better as well due to reasonably regular sex these last few years, and I have chosen to stay in my marriage, my situation is also complicated as I alluded to on EP and there are parts of my life that are still screwed up as a result of the previously-SM and I still have to keep working at to make better. I think you and I both had a 20 year SM going... and there's no doubt it changes you forever when it goes on that long. Meaning, there are things you will never forget... new beliefs and attitudes that become a new part of you as you battle your way out of the SM, etc. For example, I used to believe that marriage is forever... because I was raised in a family that was fairly religious (though not extreme) and no one else really got divorced in the extended family. But now I realize and believe that marriage is a choice... a *daily* choice. There is no forever, and I reserve the right at any time to leave if things get bad enough in the future. Kind of sad in a way... the first view that marriage is forever seems kind of magical as you go into it. Then once you get into it you may realize that you may have more differences than you thought and this relationship is going to take a lot more work than you thought. So yes, being in any kind of relationship, even marriage, is a daily choice. We always have the right to leave it, end it, or change the terms. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 28, 2016 15:43:32 GMT -5
What are you worried about if you did end up with this friend, even for a brief time? Is that worse than what happens if you do nothing and don't reconnect? Because, like you, I don't want to be the cheating, lying husband. And I'm also still here for a variety of reasons that need time to resolve for a lot of reasons . CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 26, 2016 21:50:06 GMT -5
CagedTiger,
On the theme of honesty... you've got to be true to yourself first by not saying anything you don't mean. And you did a decent job of it. I've been there... through the counseling stage. And it was the time where I was finally decided I wasn't going to hold anything back. I was going to lay it all on the line - and to be honest - otherwise counseling would not work and I wouldn't get what I *NEEDED* out of the marriage.
Some other possible responses to situations like that (e.g. I need you to miss me what I'm gone, etc.): 1. I have needs too. 2. We're working though a difficult time in our marriage. I need to feel loved by you before I can miss you. 3. Thank you for sharing how you feel. We need to have honest communication if this counseling and our rebuilding efforts are going to have any chance of success. [Stop there - be vague] OR [At this time I feel differently.] OR [My feelings are complicated right now.] 4. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Your telling me that you want me to miss you... seems to either mean: a. You telling me how you wish and *hope* how I will feel. b. You leading me / nudging me / pushing me / guilting me on how I *should* feel What do you mean by that? If it's the first one (a), that's OK. That deals with your feelings and you're entitled to them and I want you to be honest about your feelings. If it's more of the second one (b), then that's not OK / not right. No one should tell any other person how they *should* feel. Your feelings are what they are. My feelings are what they are. And (see above) my feelings are complicated right now. I'll try to clarify my thoughts and feelings when you return.
CT - Some things I did that "encouraged" my refuser to go to counseling (and set the tone for where our relationship honestly was at): * I told my W / refuser that I would not hold her or kiss her until we go to counseling (implied with this was that I could no longer say "I love you")(and I didn't say it if I didn't mean it)(and "I miss you" would fall into the same category) * I took off my wedding ring (actually many months earlier). Then during counseling, and even after we started having sex again, when she asked me about wearing my wedding ring again, I told her that I would do so when I felt *married* again / like a loved spouse again. (I told her I didn't want reset sex). I loved this answer of mine because now *I* was dishing back to *her* the same kind of stuff she had been dishing at me for years. (e.g. Refuser: I will have sex with you when *I* feel loved enough)(now I was saying: I will wear the wedding ring again when *I* feel loved enough)(e.g. enough continual physical intimacy / sex)
I say these things to give you some ideas. You could take your ring off. You could tell her that you honestly can't say you love her or that you miss her until *she* makes you feel loved enough. So the burden is on her to do the right things that make you feel happy / loved. The thing that took me so long to truly understand is that each spouse may have *different* key needs and if you truly love your spouse or want to act in a loving way (e.g. you're making an effort to love), then you will *give* the other person what he/she needs, even if you don't want it yourself. It's a *gift* to the other person.
But it all comes back to honesty. I encourage you... Don't hold anything back. Be honest. And if you don't know what to say, it's OK to fall back on "Thanks for telling me that. My feelings are complicated, and since I know we don't have time for a long discussion right now, I'll try to clarify them for you later. (Optional: I'm working through things our counselor discussed with us.)"
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 25, 2016 23:41:13 GMT -5
Glad to see this updated thread, Elle! You *own* your exit plan. A 2-year exit plan may be a bit different than the norm, but if it's reasonable for you and gets you to where you want to go, then own it and execute on that plan. You have discovered - just like I have and many others have - You get your control and upper hand in the SM situation when you're willing to walk.
Wishing you all the best!
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 24, 2016 15:39:35 GMT -5
Beeman - I read your last response above. A few other thoughts for you.
First, stand firm on your frequency target, and be assertive on staying in that range. Using your range as you have defined it... I'd be always asking for a minimum of twice a month so you be sure you stay in that range. If you have a month or two at the minimum 1x/month, then discuss with her how you'd like to try the "maximum" (e.g. weekly) for a month.
Second, if your spouse is short changing you / always giving you the bare minimum, tell her it's unacceptable / you can't live like that, so either you increase the frequency or you go to counseling. If she refuses both then move out for the weekend or go somewhere on your own for an extended weekend without her. That will give her a few days to ponder what life would be like without you.
Third, if your spouse is short changing you, start using some implicit peer pressure. Tell her you can't deal with this... this is not what normal couples do... so you've got to start talking things out with some close family and friends about your SM. She probably doesn't want other people to know about your SM, so put some peer pressure on her. The more you talk to others about this issue too... (family and friends that you trust)... the more and more you'll realize that you are *normal*.
Finally, if you don't feel married to her because of the lack of intimacy, tell her so, and then tell her you're taking your ring off for a while because you don't feel loved like married people should be loved. Another implicit signal.
Send those signals to her. Do those things, and then if you have to serve papers later, there will absolutely be no surprise. She will have had multiple chances. You can then leave in good conscience. And the family and friends that know about the situation in advance (because you talked to them) will know that you're not the bad guy for leaving her.
TL2
P.S. A loving relationship should be about giving the other person what he/she needs. Tell her you'll work more on giving her what she needs, if she works more on giving you what you need. Understand and accept that you are not fully alike and that you are different in what you each may need.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 23, 2016 23:53:24 GMT -5
So, just curious. For those of you that told your partner that you wouldn't tolerate a SM anymore, did you give expectations and consequences? Did you tell them "here is the line in the sand, if you cross it, I'm done". I did this. I told her that I expected at least once a month that was mutually desired. I told her that that was my absolute bottom line. I told her that once a week would be ideal though. So I asked her to try to help us be between those two limits in order for me to go the distance. I wonder, have you done this? If so, where did you draw your line in the sand? Has the line been crossed? If you haven't drawn this line, where would you draw it?
Let me see if I can understand this....first you give an ultimatum (which is a threat) and then you ask her to "...try and help us be between these two limits..."? That's some real negotiating skills. How'd that work out for you?
IMHO I think Beeman was being too honest in his negotiating... and also probably set his sights / expectations too low. With a lot of people, if you tell them this is the minimum you'll accept, they will give you the minimum. While he was honest in trying to negotiate more than the bare minimum, I think the likelihood of success of getting more than that plummeted due to his honesty. If you think about most things, if all you ever get is the bare minimum you probably won't be truly happy. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 23, 2016 15:10:18 GMT -5
So, just curious. For those of you that told your partner that you wouldn't tolerate a SM anymore, did you give expectations and consequences? Did you tell them "here is the line in the sand, if you cross it, I'm done". I did this. I told her that I expected at least once a month that was mutually desired. I told her that that was my absolute bottom line. I told her that once a week would be ideal though. So I asked her to try to help us be between those two limits in order for me to go the distance. I wonder, have you done this? If so, where did you draw your line in the sand? Has the line been crossed? If you haven't drawn this line, where would you draw it? Beeman, I am one of the rare people that have turned my SM around to a decent degree. I am not in a perfect marriage though by any means and we are still working on things. But at least we have sex about once a week, almost always on weekend mornings. We have been regular and consistent with sex since January 2014. When I was close to leaving in 2013 and we finally both went to counseling in late 2013, I told the counselor and her what I wanted: sex 1-2 times a week. Consider that prior to that we had sex twice in the whole calendar year 2013, and prior to that we had a stretch where we had sex once in a 4 -year period. Our marriage was at stake and she knew I was serious about leaving if we couldn't work it out. So that was the "consequence" if she didn't meet my expectations. I asked for 1-2 times a week at that time because I felt that if I only asked for 2x/month and then things tapered off after a while, then we might only be having sex once a month... which would also drive me crazy... that's borderline SM. I was in the driver's seat and had control because I was willing to walk. She didn't want to lose me. Granted, I asked for sex 1-2 times a week and we've been tracking around 1 time a week... on the lower side of what I originally asked for. But again, I'm not perfect either and if we're having sex 2x/week she's going to be wanting more from me as well to feel more loved (e.g. if you know the 5 Love Languages book / concepts, we have different love languages so it's not my natural tendency to do certain things for her... I have to be conscious about it and work at it). The bottom line is that I am probably average satisfied with my relationship at this point but hoping we can still do a lot better with it. What makes it tough is that we have a decent amount of dysfunction in the entire family (us as a couple, teenage kids with their own issues, more extended family members, etc.).. a lot of it I pin the blame on a SM existing for the first 20 years of marriage. It was a hellishly long time to be in a SM and a ton of resentment built up over time. In contrast, if we had a loving sex filled marriage from year 1, I think a lot of the crap we're dealing with now wouldn't exist. Anyway, back to your question, that's how I drew my line... at 1-2 times a week. If you're willing to walk and your spouse knows it / believes it / treats it as a real threat, you should have the control to get what you want / need. I would recommend being a bit more aggressive in asking for what you need. Ask yourself: If it tapers off from the level you're asking for, what would you do and would you still be happy? If you ask your spouse to "try"... that gives your spouse a whole lot of wiggle room to get out of it. She MUST make the time for physical intimacy on a more regular basis, otherwise she must understand that your marriage WILL fail and you will separate / divorce. She has to start to see sex as a NEED, not a want. This only happened in our relationship when my spouse and I went to counseling together. My W / refuser tried to wiggle out of it by essentially saying she always feels exhausted and there is no time for sex when dealing with work and the kids, etc. But the counselor didn't let her out of it. He told her: "There are 168 hours in a week... Certainly there must be *some* time in there where you can have sex. Generally speaking, what time of day and what time of week do you feel the least exhausted?" After a minute of silence she finally responded that weekend mornings she felt the least amount of stress. So that's what worked for us and why we're on a weekly weekend morning routine. Hope this helps! TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 23, 2016 14:39:58 GMT -5
[Re: trying more to have sex] *** To which he replied that he was trying as much as he was going to, and that he had higher priorities right now. *** Crap, that speaks volumes. Message received loud and clear. Anyone would be "done" at that point.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 22:37:17 GMT -5
I know where you're coming from... my whole marriage was virtual sexless (less than 10x) for 20 years, generally decreasing every year, and including 4 years of complete zero. I wouldn't wish that hell on even any enemies I may have (well maybe one real a**hole!). I hate thinking back on it and just have to keep focused on looking forward. The SM is indelibly a part of me but I have to focus on the future. Best of luck with *your* future! TL2 Omg!! That is hell!! I will be married 23 years in Oct. and believe me, the frequency decreased significantly soon after we got married. Best of luck to you as well! Where are you in your journey, may I ask? I have actually had a turn around / break through with my W / former refuser in January 2014. We've actually had sex on average about once a week since then. That's huge from where I came from and so we're still together. However, our sex life is very scheduled, rarely spontaneous, and very routine. I feel I have no room to complain in this forum because any kind of regular sex helps one feel normal, confident, and alive. Through counseling my W has changed somewhat (and I have too)... at least enough to finally understand that sex is a need, not a want... but I feel there is still a ways to go before I'd truly feel crazy in love with her. We have been on a break from counseling for about 5 months now (for various reasons)... After our break through we went to counseling monthly (e.g. there was no way in hell I wanted the sex to go away again so I felt that counseling was my "insurance"). In a nutshell life is complicated for many of us and my life is no different. I'm better than I was before but still have a ways to go to reverse all of the bad ripple effects of the 20 year SM. I keep reminding myself to look forward because looking back can be painful sometimes and seems counter productive. So I guess I'm happier my life is better but I still want it to be much more. Health issues with my 2 kids have added stress to the marriage. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 22:15:45 GMT -5
Here's another meme on "change"... similar to a few others above but with a little different spin too. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2016 22:10:37 GMT -5
timeforliving2 . Lol. It's okay!!! I cannot even think about being intimate with him anymore. Ewwww!! Sexless for about 10 years. I lost that lovin' feeling with him and will hopefully find it with another man one day in the future. I know where you're coming from... my whole marriage was virtual sexless (less than 10x) for 20 years, generally decreasing every year, and including 4 years of complete zero. I wouldn't wish that hell on even any enemies I may have (well maybe one real a**hole!). I hate thinking back on it and just have to keep focused on looking forward. The SM is indelibly a part of me but I have to focus on the future. Best of luck with *your* future! TL2
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