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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 4, 2020 0:50:56 GMT -5
timeforliving2 , I’m curious about the turnaround as you describe it. Not to try and tear it down, but.. do you sincerely feel that a handful of counseling sessions have profoundly changed your wife’s attitude toward intimacy, or just opened her eyes to the risk of continuing her refusing ways? If she’s just going through the motions to appease you, does that really meet your needs? (Or perhaps you two really do enjoy sex, but she lacked the motivation to engage, and now she has that.) When someone changes their behavior under duress, it seems like this is just putting the shoe on the other foot, which is why ultimatums really aren’t a great approach, even when you’re prepared to follow-through. If you succeed, you get what you want at the expense of your spouse being sexual against their desires - it’s the same as a sexless marriage, except the dynamics are flipped. It seems just as likely to explode later, but with “I can’t deal with sex this often”. Which is akin to what happened to worksforme2 , as I recall. In your case, did she just need to overcome a willingness for frequency, or was it more of a transformation from asexual to sexual? DryCreek, Good and valid question. Pardon my few days' delay.... I let many months lapse before recently checking back in here again.
I think my wife's perspective changed to somewhere in between those two perspectives/attitudes you mention: She is not going through the motions just to appease me, but she has also not profoundly changed into a nympho sex-addict either. My W had a combination of things holding her back from sex: (1) religious beliefs, (2) how she was raised (prudish), (3) virgin until marriage, and (4) medical issues (endometriosis, stage 4 / severe... and other things) which caused her pain oftentimes when we did try to have sex after marriage. As an aside, I'll be the first to admit that I married too young and too quickly and was too naive about marriage. I dated my W for a year, proposed when I was 23 and married when I was 24. I was the first of my good friends to get married and we were all Christian and thought we were doing the right thing by waiting for marriage to go all the way. No one ever heard about or talked about a SM so I didn't even know it was a thing to be concerned about. My W and I were different because I fooled around in prior relationships in just about any way possible without having PIV sex. My W on the other hand didn't fool around as much, and to the extent she didn't want to fool around as much when we were dating I was (at the time) OK with it because of the "promise" of sex after marriage.
Anyway, so where does my W stand now, and how did counseling change her? We actually found a marriage counselor that was Christian too in beliefs, but not rigid. He helped her to understand that regular sex is normal and expected and biblical and part of a normal healthy Christian marriage. He helped her to understand that she was hurting our marriage relationship in a significant way. I believe I separately learned that oxytocin - a hormone that is released during childbirth and nursing - is also released during sex. And it is released in *men* as well during / after sex. So my W began to realize that our love for each other can grow / we can biologically bond in a different way by having regular sex. I know, it seems like everyone should know this (or at least a simplified / street smart version of this). But my W really didn't understand that angle before.
So my W enjoys sex more now but she is also not a nypho and she's not that creative. Sex is almost always scheduled on a Saturday or Sunday morning when she feels less stressed and we pretty much stick to a standard routine. Breaking out of a nearly 20 year SM into a year of sex on a weekly basis was incredible for me, even if it we stuck to a standard routine. As the last 6 years have unfolded the frequency of sex has tapered too but there have been / are other physical challenges going on (menopause and other) as well as stress / health issues with kids and work. So all considered, it's not a fantasy sex life that we have but it's enough to keep us connected on a physical level. I do wish our sex life was better but I have so many other issues going on in our immediate and extended families and friends that improving our sex life hasn't been getting the attention it should I guess.
I do think that my W changed her attitude for a *variety* of different reasons, it wasn't simply because of an ultimatum (and as you may recall my ultimatum wasn't an angry ultimatum... At the time I could really care less... I would have been happy with either outcome). Re: your last question... we basically had almost *no* frequency in the year before my refuser W had the breakthrough (I believe just twice in the first half of that year, and none in the second half). I wouldn't label my W as asexual anymore but I also don't think she is the average person's definition of a normal "fully sexual" person either because again, our sex is almost always scheduled and follows a fairly regular routine. Generally speaking she is not that creative of a person. But she is a loving and caring person in many other ways.
We have plenty of room for improvement but at least our relationship works in a fundamental way where it didn't before.
Hope that helps.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on May 29, 2020 12:56:18 GMT -5
Your gas station incident is pretty funny. I would be happy to meet women that way! I would crack up if my wife would be upset at that. I am sort of making my wife jealous, but it is just slightly. I'm staying with her and not going anywhere, so there is no point in pissing her off. But to keep my sanity, I will try to meet and make friends with more women, for my sake. As long as my wife knows that I'm not a total loser and have some females who enjoy my company, she'll hopefully feel some urge to keep me happy. Our marriage has become sexless when she reached menopause, I guess it is a good milestone for her. But she has been better at intimacy lately. We've been together for 26 years, and we love each other, really. I really cannot justify leaving. So giving an ultimatum is much too risky for the marriage. If the wife doesn't want much attention, why not give more to friends. The key to being happy is to not think about the bad part of life and being thankful for the good things in life. I'm hoping this ILIASM deal will work itself out in the future. Good luck with getting closer, emotionally and physically, to your wife. lwoetin ... Perhaps your marriage relationship is in overall better shape than I thought (other than the SM part). But two comments you made jump out at me and they raise the issue of how important good communication is in a relationship: (1) "So giving an ultimatum is much too risky for the marriage.", and (2) "I'm hoping this ILIASM deal will work itself out in the future."
In response to those two comments you made, I would say...KEEP discussing the issue... and how it affects BOTH of you (individually)... AND your marriage relationship. Treat your marriage relationship as a separate "thing". You (or your spouse / partner) can't expect to get much out of it if you don't put much into it. You cannot merely "hope" that things will get better. Also, don't use the word "ultimatum" in talking about it. Your marriage relationship is a separate thing, and it has to work for BOTH people. If it's not working in a significant way for ANY ONE of the people, then it might be a DEALBREAKER... IF the problem does not get resolved IN THE LONG RUN. So it's not an ultimatum... it's just a reality of how a 2-person relationship works... or doesn't work.
Since this issue has been going on for YEARS, it needs to be discussed / worked on until it is resolved to BOTH of your satisfaction. If you can't work this out on your own, then a third party (counselor) WILL be needed. If that cannot work, THEN it's certainly REASONABLE to "take a break" for a while (and the action of "taking a break" will be about as big of a sign as you can get that this is a *serious* issue). SOME PEOPLE will not change UNLESS they get a big enough kick in the butt / incentive to change. And don't worry about "what she may think"... because: (1) you certainly have a right to stand up for your needs in a 2-person relationship (otherwise the other person controls everything and you're effectively "a push over"), and (2) If she does in fact change, she will know that she was in the wrong and/or NEEDED to change... and then the relationship WILL be better and she will be amazed by how you are treating her EVEN BETTER.
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Post by timeforliving2 on May 28, 2020 1:15:49 GMT -5
I appreciate all of the responses. I can see that some people disagree with the idea of trying to make a spouse jealous. But I do not see it as a form of manipulation. My wife has ignored my needs for many years, treated me like a stranger. I have talked to her many, many times, told her how I feel and said that I will not live like this forever. She has dropped out of counseling several times. She is afraid to be close, afraid to get hurt. She will admit as much. When pressed, she has admitted to being very unfair to me. When I ask her if she wants me to find someone else, she will never say yes. She will just say "if that is what you want to do." She wants me to make the move, to be "the bad guy." She knows I have been very good to her. Even the counselor said she withdraws as a form of protection and that it is very unhealthy. I do not see it as a form of manipulation to want to meet someone else in a platonic way, when your spouse ignores you for so long and sees no need to change. My wife needs to be pushed. I could threaten divorce, but I am not ready for various reasons. Others would tell me to do it anyways. In the midst of a pandemic? I have taken classes at the local community college and met some women who were friendly to me. I admit it was quite nice. They knew I was married, just not unhappily so. I was afraid to tell someone that, afraid they would think I was trying to pursue them, which I was not. That is a dilemma. Every situation is different. greatcoastal said his wife would not get jealous of time he spent with other women. I believe my wife would. If it had unintended consequences, so be it. At least I would know for sure that my wife does not love me and maybe that would be enough for me to leave. It was said that I should not use someone as a clueless pawn. I would never do that. I am always open about my marital status and just looking to make friends. I have on occasion talked with others, mostly online, about my marital problems. They always say the same thing, "Just spend more time with your wife. Show her how much you love her." People on this forum know that does not work. Hiker64 - I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you... married 25+ years now. The first nearly 20 years of our marriage was sexless... which this group has generally defined as either no sex or single digits each year / less than once a month. My worst stretch was a 4 year period with zero sex. Overall I estimate sex 4x/year in our first 20 years. However about 6 years ago we had a turning point and, for only the second time in our nearly 20 year marriage at that point, my refuser W actually initiated sex one morning.
What happened? I rocked the boat. In your two posts above, you are suggesting rocking the boat in a different way... Trying to making your refuser jealous by trying to get other women interested in you and have your refuser W notice. I don't know your situation completely, but some other people here chimed in to say that that approach may not work. But I would suggest that you (1) try rocking the boat in several different ways, (2) have some new and different honest communications with your W, (3) figure out what is truly hurting her (she seems to be holding back and not telling you), and (4) set a deadline for trying to make the relationship work.
I can appreciate the religious angle / jokingly thinking that God doesn't want you to divorce. I struggled with that for the first 18+ years of our marriage when I was really suffering. But ultimately I came to the conclusion that God wants us all to be happy and that if we are suffering, it's a sign that something has to change. So I internally resolved that divorce WAS an option. From there, I acted upon that new belief / internal resolution. I rocked the boat in many ways. I took off my wedding ring for the full year or so before our turn around. My W noticed within the first week and it bothered her. Good. We tried to fix things ourselves by reading self help books, but it wasn't too helpful. We always got into arguments over key issues (including sex). As the year progressed, I realized that my refuser W felt "loved enough" if she got hugs and simple good morning / good night kisses from me. So I stopped giving her hugs and kisses, and I told her why and what I wanted. For us, I wanted us to go to couples' counseling. I told her that I would no longer hug her or kiss her until we *got things resolved* with couples counseling. About a week of my withholding hugs and kisses we were each starting to get names of couples counselors. I know your refuser W backed out of counseling a few times, but maybe you can give it one last shot.
And that right there may be the key: telling your W that (1) sex is a dealbreaker in your marriage, (2) your marriage is broken / isn't working the way it should, (3) you love her and you want to give it one last shot to fix it, and (4) if you can't fix it by X date, then you may need to separate (not necessarily divorce, but separate / reevaluate). These are things I either told my refuser W directly (or indirectly through the counselor in our initial interviews). For me, I didn't hold anything back when my W and I had initial separate interviews with a couples counselor (he wanted to meet with each of us independently - twice - before proceeding with couples counseling). I told the counselor that if, after trying counseling for a few months, I was equally happy with either outcome: (1) we save / fix the marriage, or (2) we do not save the marriage / we separate or divorce. In essence, I was resolved that I was willing to walk away. If we did divorce, I knew that family and friends would ask if we tried counseling so I wanted to be able to truthfully say that I gave it an honest shot.
I also told the counselor and my wife (in the joint sessions) that I was willing to change... I knew I wasn't perfect... But my W would have to change in some key areas too... including having sex. It took a while for her to realize how much she was hurting me and our marriage relationship, but after about 6 more weekly meetings she figured it out and realized that she needed to make the next move because I had no trust in her anymore. My trust in her was broken. So she initiated sex one Saturday morning and I couldn't believe it. And we had sex again the next morning. That year we averaged sex more than once a week, which was a huge turn-around for me/us.
So, bottom line, I rocked the boat in several ways. I set a deadline. I was resolved that sex (or lack of it) was a dealbreaker issue. I was willing to walk away. I realized that God doesn't want us to be unhappy. I realized that I didn't believe in soulmates... rather, we have different levels or degrees of compatibility that we all have with other people. All of these things influenced how I/we were able to move out of the sexless marriage category.
Hope this helps. I hadn't checked back to this website for a while, but I am very grateful for the predecessor website (many of the people there followed over to here when the prior website closed down). The people in both places were / are great... I learned a lot and put the pieces together enough to figure out how to get our marriage out of the rut it was in.
Best of luck to you. Hope this helps. I can't promise that I will be checking back here daily but I will try to check back here more regularly for a while. I know that it's rare to turn around a SM so I just want to share how it worked for me.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on May 26, 2020 13:29:13 GMT -5
I saw the fabulous update of nyartgal and ..I really don't have any positive thing to report for an update. But it's normal for the Choosing to Stay section.? Still, like Seinfeld episodes about nothing, it's still something. I feel like half the forum members will stay and half will split so I am putting in my stat for the former. I'm still alive but my sex life isn't. I'm OK though. Perhaps I'm not an HD person. My wife had said once we turn 50 we shouldn't do it anymore. It's been around a couple of years of not doing it now. But if your partner is not into it, is it really a big loss to not do it? I've not given up hope that we will have enjoyable sex in the future. I just don't see how it will happen. I do love her dearly, she is my soulmate, she makes me laugh. We spoke about having a talk about our relationship after our kids are out of the house. But I think we are both expecting to be together. Our youngest will be in 11th grade this Fall. I thought marriage involves the act of surrendering to the other. I guess it doesn't mean everything. Anyway, I keep busy with work, church and hobbies. I try to meet more women just so I don't become crazy or gay. I'm happy to see this forum still very active and members using it for support as they find their way. I will end with a lovely song in my head.
Lwoetin: You also mentioned in a separate reply in this thread, "But she would rather split than do something that is against her will…. She wants her body to herself. It's not for sharing."
lwoetin ...baza referenced me a few weeks ago / further up this thread. I haven't been checking back here as regularly since the turnaround my W and I had about 6 1/2 years ago. Damn... it's amazing how time flies.
My thoughts on these 2 posts of yours: (1) You mention that your W is *your* soulmate. Question: Are you *her* soulmate? (2) Your youngest child will be in 11th grade this fall, and (3) Apparently your W said to you that she would rather split than do something that is against her will. So it sounds like she has thought about this at least a little bit.
Might your W be contemplating an exit of her own after your youngest child graduates HS / 12th grade and is off to college? In the last decade or so there has been a large increase in divorces for couples who are 50+ years old / after the kids are done with HS. Might your W be biding her time until it’s more convenient for her to exit? Might she be having a relationship / AP on the side? Or if not, since you both seem somewhat religious, might she be “saving herself” for a next, future partner? For either of these last 2 questions, might that explain why she is not wanting to have sex with you now? ****
With all of that being said, please know that my W was a refuser for the first nearly 20 years of our marriage. I don’t know why I held on so long… but it was in part I know because of my religious beliefs not to get divorced. However, please know that I was *only* able to get my refuser W to change when: (1) I finally resolved that I was not going to take it any more, (2) I resolved that divorce WAS an option, (3) I determined that a sex life was a *dealbreaker* for our relationship, (4) I let my W know (through a counselor) that I was ready to walk if we couldn’t make it work within a reasonable amount of time with counseling, and (5) I similarly stopped withholding what my W needed (at the time) to feel loved…. She was content with hugs and kisses… So I told her: “I am no longer going to kiss you and I am no longer going to hug you or hold you until we go to counseling and get our relationship fixed”.
Amazingly after about 8 weekly counseling sessions my W made the move and initiated sex. I was blown away by her making that first move. I truly thought she would never change. But I finally took a stand, made my feelings very clear, and she began to understand just how much she was hurting me, and therefore how much she was hurting our marriage relationship.
If you have accepted that things will never change, then I bet that they in fact never will. You have already accepted all future outcomes as being OK. Only you know if you will forever be happy in this state. The fact that you are seeing other women in a friendly manner and as you describe, seems to indicate to me that you may “want to be ready” if your marriage does end in divorce. If true, to me that also implies that what you are brushing off / dismissing as your “wanting” sex…. is really more of a “need” for sex. To me, that is normal. It took me a long time (and a lot of reading on these ILIASM boards) to realize that sex is a biological NEED for almost all people. I think that libido / sex drive does taper off for people at differing ages… but if you ever had a healthy sex life for a long time (10+ years) then your spouse should (hopefully) understand how important it is / may be to you.
Wishing you the best. Maybe these comments will inspire you to have some additional conversations with your soulmate W.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 5, 2019 18:05:38 GMT -5
Hope is all I have left. Not that my wife will change, that will not happen. Hope that one day before I'm too old I will have sex again and even hope for a fulfilling and active sex life. Every day I get a little older and every day the hope fades a little bit more. But it is still there for me and I do all I can to imagine a wonderful life in the future. At my age I know I'm really pushing that pipe dream, but still I won't give up my hope. My wife is very sick and I know my time will come someday just not sure when. Until then though, I am fully committed to taking care of my wife and making her days as good as possible. But hope for after that keeps me from going insane over being sexless now. RealMustangGuy, your attitude and approach is admirable. Though difficult I think you are doing the right thing. There are so many people who remarry or find another committed partner after age 55 that I personally know or have heard or read about, so keep the faith. In addition to caring for your wife during her illness and apparent final years or months, focus on being / becoming a better you... That's one of the few things you can control... You'll be happier now and you'll be happier in the next chapter.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Feb 25, 2019 17:10:00 GMT -5
Another thought: You could also tactfully work on a way to say essentially the following: I'm happy for you that you're doing well financially now. As you might remember I gave you $X,XXX a few years ago when you really needed the money. Although I treated it as a gift to you at the time, it was also a sacrifice by me since I gave up buying some things for myself that I otherwise could have. It's your choice, but if you choose to consider that money I previously gave you as a loan, I would appreciate you paying me back over the next few months.
(Optional: If you do so, it might help ensure that - if you are in financial hardship in the future - I might be able to help you out again.) (Subtle hint: If you don't, I won't!)
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 6, 2019 22:29:27 GMT -5
Agree ... and understood baza . My outsourcing has dramatically decreased and is quite rare these days for the very reason you mentioned. I am trying to focus 100% and have no distractions. When the wiggy and desperate desire take over every few months, there may be a fix needed to quell the urgency of a permanent fix at home. As I said, it's dwindling down to next to nothing. I suspect rather soon, nothing will be what it is. Thank you for your advice. :*) I don’t know whether or not outsourcing causes problems in an established sexless marriage. There is a little niggling thought that won’t leave me alone and says that those admirable people who would never outsource might be the essential ingredient that a refuser needs in order to refuse. Like wise someone who would never separate may be equally rewarding to a refuser. Working on it might not work where there are no consequences at all. Excellent points Carl (and thanks for looping me in baza). In order to "turn around" my marriage a little over 5 years ago... I did things to shake up the marriage. "Rocking the boat" is definitely what people need to do if they want any shot of turning thing around with a refuser IMHO. I told my refuser that I would no longer kiss her or hug her anymore until we went to marriage counseling. Previously, that was all she needed to feel "loved enough" by me. Then, once we were in counseling, I held nothing back in terms of talking with the counselor, separately or with the three of us in a group (and I was civil even if I raised my voice). I told the counselor separately that I wanted to try to resolve the SM issues within a reasonable time, but if we couldn't resolve things within a reasonable time, then I was *equally willing* to accept that result too (I was ready to walk). I just couldn't live that way anymore. This message separately got back to my W / refuser I am sure before we started the group counseling sessions. Once I was open about divorce being an option then my refuser started to change her tune. Some refusers can change, and it is definitely a low odds chance of changing them, but for me I had to genuinely feel like I gave it an honest shot at saving the marriage. I will also admit that our sex life currently is not 5-star awesome, and my W is not in the best shape (I make more effort than she does), but my W is also preoccupied with trying to get to the bottom of some serious health issues for one of our kids (it's been going on for years). It drains probably 20+ hours a week of her time on average (no joke). Given that situation, I am accepting of the fact that our sex life is "OK" for now... I hold out hope that when the health issues are resolved (things are trending better) and our oldest is off to college soon, that our sex life will improve a bit too. I accept that our sex life will never be 5-star awesome (for lack of a better term). I can remember what it was like being in a SM for so long, so I count my blessings that the sex life is "OK" for now vs. nonexistant.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 18, 2018 16:21:30 GMT -5
Just saw this as well as your follow up post (also above) that the last straw snapped. Sorry to hear that but sounds like it was inevitable. Amazing that he didn't change when you gave him divorce papers 2 times earlier. With respect to our own happiness... and your question above... "What am I willing to accept and not accept?".... Here is a meme that resonated with me a few years ago.
TL2
We ALWAYS have a choice, right? We may not like those choices, but we have them. I refuse to be a victim. That's exactly right. Even "do nothing" / accepting the status quo is a choice. It is so much more empowering to reframe the situation and take control of it... especially situations we can no longer accept.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 18, 2018 14:57:56 GMT -5
Ironically, I was searching this site looking for stories of "regret" ... stories of anyone who left an otherwise fair to good marriage SOLELY because of the dead bedroom and regretted it. My husband is kind to me, but not remotely interested in sex with me. We are roommates. BUT, will I regret leaving a fair provider and someone who will care for me when I am old/ill, etc., for the chance at physical affection and love again? I wonder. I don't know. Reading through this thread I see there are often 'other' issues besides just the SM. Other issues of compatibility and friendship and genuine affection for one another. I must remember to consider ALL sides of the equation before making a final leave or stay decision. I'm sure someone regretted leaving such a situation, just as sure as I am some or many more had no regrets whatsoever. Finding that line for me has been such a struggle and continues to be. What am I willing to accept and not accept? No marriage is perfect, but what are my bottom line needs? So much to ponder. Just saw this as well as your follow up post (also above) that the last straw snapped. Sorry to hear that but sounds like it was inevitable. Amazing that he didn't change when you gave him divorce papers 2 times earlier. With respect to our own happiness... and your question above... "What am I willing to accept and not accept?".... Here is a meme that resonated with me a few years ago.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 18, 2018 14:20:40 GMT -5
So I'm new here and been hearing about this shynjdude who apparently made a good turnaround. Just found this thread and got caught up. Happy for how things appear to be working for them. Sad because he stated what I've always known - it takes two. I can't keep trying to fix this myself. My husband must agree to come to counseling with me and fully jump in to save the marriage. If he doesn't, there's no hope. Sigh ..... @whynotm3 ... Sorry I didn't see this for a while after baza linked me in. I don't check in here daily. Happy to respond back via this message / post chain or separately.
Just briefly... our turnaround / recovery from a SM would not have happened if I didn't do certain things to shake things up a bit... which was enough encouragement for my refuser to go to couples counseling. First I took off the wedding ring. Second, I stopped kissing and hugging her until we went to counseling (For my refuser W, she seemed to be happy "enough"just with the traditional morning and evening brief kisses and hugs... this was sufficient "intimacy" for what she needed to feel loved. So I stopped giving that to my refuser... I told told her simply and unapologetically that I would not do that anymore until we went to counseling and I felt like we were making progress). This included even when at church with our family... I would otherwise kiss my W during the sign of peace... but it was such a hollow charade... appearing to hundreds of others that we were a loving couple... when we weren't. So I stopped that weekly kiss in public at church too.
When we got to counseling, our counselor wisely met with each of us separately first (2 times each) to better understand what our issues were. When talking to the counselor I let him know that I was perfectly OK with either result of counseling: either we fix things in a reasonable time or we separate / divorce. I am sure our counselor told this separately to my refuser. I had previously and finally reached the conclusion / was truly resolved that I couldn't live this way anymore, and despite my strong religious upbringing, divorce was certainly a viable option... even with some middle-school aged kids in the home. Finally, when in joint couples counseling, I was always respectful of my choice of words (no name calling) but I was *completely* honest / didn't hold back any thoughts or feelings and I left it all on the table. This was the last chance to save the marriage so I certainly wanted to say I tried. I also went in with the attitude that I wasn't perfect either and I was willing to change in some respects too. We both needed to change. After 6 weekly sessions and the start of a new year, my refuser shocked the heck out of me and initiated for only the 2nd time in our nearly 20-year marriage.
Hope some of that insight helps. I can certainly elaborate more.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Nov 14, 2018 1:38:32 GMT -5
*sigh* People talk about "low sex marriages" and then I find out they mean something like once a week. I have had the same thought. It makes me stay away from the deadbedrooms reddit. That would be like an orgy to my sex starved self I know the pain that you and nyctos feel / are referring to. I had a 20 year virtually SM (single digits) with a 4-year period in there with *zero*. baza just mentioned perhaps calling things a qualified success if things are improving / better than the prior period. I think that's the right attitude. Whatever the number is that you're at (e.g. even if it's zero) focus on trying to improve on that.
Re: the once a week comment.... and comparing to some people posting that it would be tough to go 1 day without sex... there is definitely variation in this world of how strong of libidos each of us has. But we are who we are. FWIW - If my former refuser W and I had sex even "just" weekly throughout our earlier years in marriage (the first 20), I would be a much different (better) person. It was like battling a 20-year cancer and just sucked the life out of me.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Nov 14, 2018 0:46:14 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that these conference call services are free. In that sense it's kind of like Skype or Facetime, but since you'd be dialing into a conference call number, you are not trading phone numbers with anyone, so more potential for some privacy while still being able to talk.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Nov 13, 2018 23:17:36 GMT -5
After years at ILIASM and its predecessor site the thought just occurred to me… Has anyone talked about having a general ILIASM conference call number that people could call if they wanted to?
Especially in the early years for me I truly wished there was someone I could *talk to* about this stuff… and it was always so difficult. Here, people understand. It would be natural to want to talk to other people here. Beyond just texting / typing back and forth.
One of the problems to calling people directly is you may want to maintain your privacy… both in terms of your phone number and name. For two people who otherwise might be willing to talk to each other, they would each need to set up a separate Google Voice number to protect their privacy, which takes time, effort, and a general understanding to do. However, if there was a general ILIASM conference line already set up, you could say “I’d really like to talk if you have the time… Meet me on the conference line in 5 minutes?”
Benefits: • The phone number would be pre-established • There doesn’t have to be any permanent designated “host” for a relatively reasonable time up to 45 minutes… You could set it up so that anyone could call in and have a phone call up to 45 minutes before getting kicked off (without the host) • Although it would be based in the U.S. there are international dial-in capabilities using local numbers…. About 50 major countries have local dial-in numbers • It is possible to talk in a “side room” to the main conference line • No limit (effectively) on the number of people calling in (e.g. up to 1,000) • The number wouldn’t be listed anywhere as an ILIASM number per se… It’s a general conference call number
Potential downsides: • People could potentially randomly drop in. However, dial tones alert participants when someone enters or leaves the conference call. Also, you could designate / use a “side room” that would otherwise make the main conference call appear to be silent / not in use. • Other?
It’s great texting / typing up responses back and forth, whenever it fits best in our schedule. However, that does take a lot more time than talking verbally. Also, there are times when someone might really *need* to talk to someone else… Where talking would be so much more helpful. Having a pre-established number could make this so much easier. You could directly message that friend here (if you see they’re online) and tell them you want to talk and you could stay off the radar of everyone else.
Thoughts?
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Nov 12, 2018 23:29:49 GMT -5
Update: He moved out. After a 4 day honeymoon where I was ELATED to have him gone, I have started crying - a lot. I miss him. This is insanity. I know it. I made a list of why I couldn't stay in the marriage anymore, but it doesn't help unless I am actively reading it (so I should read it constantly??). The house is quiet when he has the kids and I HATE it. I don't want to live like this. But I didn't want to live the other way either. I guess I don't know what I want. Except I still wish I had my family. Just being real. And real is: I miss my refuser and I am lonely and my house is too quiet and even the damn dogs can't settle down with the ex gone. They miss him too. Ok, I'm just going to go and cry now. Thanks for listening. Elle - I can only imagine the mixed emotions. During difficult times I have found that searching for and reviewing positive memes can be helpful. I have collected a lot of them over the years. Here are a few that might resonate with you. I hope at least one generates a smile with its wisdom.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 6, 2018 19:27:34 GMT -5
time4intimacy .... Message me anytime and/or post here. Trying to check here a few times a week.
Best of luck as you try to keep something going. Your W *initiating* with you is key. Don't know if the reason it was mutually hot for you last time on 9/3 was because you put some fear in your W that she might lose you, or if she has done some soul searching about where things had been going. Open communication is also key with your long term marriage success... so don't be afraid to ask her about it in an open ended and perhaps indirect way... Try to find out her reasons for spicing it up.
Finally, it doesn't look good if your W refuses counseling. To me, that implies / means that she doesn't feel like she needs to change much, if at all, and that she's generally fine just the way things are. Perhaps she doesn't want to spend the money on it, but most likely she feels like she doesn't really have to change. Or she may feel like things are "too complicated" to get into with a counselor. But that's *precisely* the reason you want to involve a counselor... to help cut through all of the peripheral issues to get to the core issues that you both need to work on.
Joint counseling, in person, is what helped *start* our marriage turn around in about 6-8 weeks. The counselor met with me *separately* 2 times at the beginning, then my wife separately 2 times at the beginning, then we began joint counseling. Without it, I would have separated for sure, then most likely divorced. My W and I are both relatively smart people, so for years we thought we could work through things ourselves (books, talking, etc.) without spending the $ on a counselor. We were wrong. Money on a good counselor is an investment and money well spent. If the counselor your first choose isn't working after X weeks (maybe 8-12 weeks) , don't be afraid to try a different counselor.
TL2
Thanks for reaching out TL2 and maybe I will message you later. You bring up a lot of good points. I think some fear is the reason she was so into sex and maybe she needed to see me stand up for myself to be turned on, I am not sure. We will see if there is a repeat performance or the this is a one time hit. My wife never has been into counseling and she feels that is the beginning of the end, that alone should show her she could benefit as well. We shall see. I wish my wife could see the benefit of a mutual counselor. Good luck to you. time4intimacy.... See what baza just posted about: rocking the boat. It is *so* true. It is *necessary* in most well-established situations in order for you to be able to create the change / different outcome that you desire. It took me years to (1) learn that, and (2) have the courage to do it.
Re: your W's attitude about going to counseling: challenge that, because it's not true. What *is* true... and the message you need to convey, is: (1) The SM is a "dealbreaker" issue for me, and if we don't get it satisfactorily resolved by Date X (mm/dd/yyyy) then I will have to separate because I can no longer live like this; (2) We can still try to resolve this ourselves without a counselor, but realistically what's been our track record / success rate for doing that? If you still want to work on it ourselves for a few more months, fine, but it's not changing Date X; (3) Going to a counselor means going to a professional who has helped lots of couples improve their marriage / work through the challenging issues. It does not mean it's going to end. Going to a counselor means you're trying your *best* to work through this. You're paying money so you are going to want to get the most out of it. If you don't want to try your best to improve our marriage / make it the best it can be, then just let me know now and maybe we should really be discussing a much sooner Date Y.
If your spouse still refuses to go to counseling, then I would start doing these things: (1) tell some other people you trust (good friends, close family / relatives, etc.) about the SM situation AND your spouse's refusal to go to counseling... If your marriage does end at some point and you're the one who files for divorce / ends it, then it will not be a shock to them and you will immediately look so much better in their eyes than if you did not tell them in advance; (2) take off your wedding ring (e.g. why go along with the charade?); (3) refuse to do the things that your spouse "needs" from you in order for her to feel loved "enough" from you. For example, my W (during our SM) felt loved "enough" by me when we kissed for a few seconds each morning and evening and said the hollow words "I love you" when we left the house to go somewhere.... and when I held her hand from time to time. I rocked the boat one day when I realized this and told her that I would no longer do those things UNTIL we went to counseling and got our major issues worked out.
Within a few days we were calling around making lists of counselors to consider. Our turnaround happened just a few months later. I rocked the boat. Change happened.
TL2
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