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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 19, 2018 14:44:58 GMT -5
Not entirely true Brother rejected101 . Brother timeforliving2 has a credible case of his deal doing a 180. He was a reasonably regular contributor to the group, but I haven't seen him around since about January this year. But you need to take that in context. There are 1,088 members here. Brother timeforliving2 represents 00.09% baza Thanks for the shout out... It has been quite a while since I was on this site. My apologies... One of my kids had big health issues while work was going crazy.
rejected101 It was only after joining the predecessor site to this one (EP) and reading and chatting for many months that I began to (1) get enough wisdom to understand the situation better, and (2) knew that I had to take a stand / shake the pot / be ready and willing to leave... in order for any change to actually happen. If you are not ready and willing to leave your SM then (1) often a refuser may not take your needs seriously, and (2) you are overlooking a real and viable option, which you must be willing to pursue (in my opinion).
Bottom line: Yes, when people have turned the corner on a SM and have improved it to make things better, often we may forget to check back in here... because our situations are not in dire need anymore. And I have been absent for a long time.... so I apologize. I know people out there are hurting and could really benefit from some insight I may have. Kudos to baza for still being on these boards. He was one of many people who offered wisdom I needed to make a change.
I will try to check back in here more regularly, perhaps weekly. I know it won't be daily but I will do what I can to help others / pay it forward.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 19, 2018 14:29:10 GMT -5
"Leaving her is not an option for me" - you say Brother wonderingsoul . What special characteristics sets your situation apart from the average Joe/Joette ? Well we have been and still are going trough a rough time medically speaking. (Don’t want to go in detail yet) but leaving her would be like really leaving my family who needs me not just leaving my my wife, and that is something I can’t live with despite our lack of physical intimacy I’m afraid. The problems with are physical relationships dates from way before the medical issues in our family. Maybe I will look on it differently if the kids are older and the medical issues are behind us.
Here's a question you have to ask yourself: Would your urgency to do something change if you had CANCER? Here's the reality: Being in sexless marriage (SM), you have *marriage cancer*. You've got to treat it as AGGRESSIVELY as *actual* cancer. Treating cancer is not always successful but you've got to try and fight it. Sometimes even after aggressive treatment the cancer still wins and what was once full of life cannot be saved. However, other times you CAN beat the cancer.
Have you tried counseling yet? If you're going to beat this marriage cancer (a SM) you've *both* got to be vested in the process, and an independent counselor (who you both concur on) will probably be your best chance of saving the marriage before the cancer gets worse. If one counselor does not help you after a reasonable time, be ready to move to another counselor.
I could write a lot more but that's the main point I wanted to convey right now. I just logged into this site after being away for too many months. This group helped me turn the corner on my SM many years ago back when the predecessor EP site was operating. Will try to check back in here more regularly again, hopefully again this next weekend. One of my kids has had a lot of health issues and all aspects of life have been crazy busy.
Seriously though - Think about how essential sex is to a healthy marriage / relationship. It *is* essential. When you're in a SM... If you don't treat this problem as seriously as having cancer, then you probably won't take the action you need to change things. You'll be stuck in the status quo. Is that what you want? I understand when you say that other things are going on in your family life and you don't want to perhaps overwhelm the family. If you say that though, what you are also saying is that sex really isn't that important and you are OK with things as they currently stand. Again, if you had actual cancer while the other family stuff was going on, would you just sit back and do nothing about it? Would you accept death right here, right now?
You do have marriage cancer. A marriage without sex, when at least one person wants it / needs it to be happy, will ultimately die if left untreated and given enough time. Treat the situation seriously. Fight for what is an essential need in your marriage, otherwise your marriage will die from this SM marriage cancer. You deserve to be happy and fulfilled in your marriage. So does your spouse. My wife and I turned the corner and got things on a better track with good counseling, even when I was *sure* (at the time) that my refuser spouse of 19 years would never change. She did change though, with outside help.
All the best. Keep fighting the good fight.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 22, 2017 21:50:00 GMT -5
I agree McRoomMate From what I am reading here, we don't have the manipulation, and baggage that many have here. I thinking we caught the relationship in time. Maybe that is the benefit of the internet. I was able to find other people with the same issue and was able to validate my feelings that a SM is not normal or healthy. I have been dealing with depression for almost 2 years now, and I could not figure out where it was coming from until I found everyone here. We were not completely at the sexless marriage stage but we in the way, we were down to 2-3 times a month. Before I would not describe the wife as enthusiast for sex before, maybe hospitable, but after we decided that 2 kids was enough, it felt like I was begging for scraps. Like she was giving me just enough to keep me begging. Almost, a sadistic Pavlov's dog experiment. We have been working at it now for 3 months and she has actually initiated, the last time she initiated must have been 7 years ago after a party when I was the DD and we were trying to conceive. I had to read Song of Solomon a few times to wrap my head around that imagery like that was in the Bible. While neither of us are consistent church goers, I have never hear song of Solomon discussed in the late highschool/college age Bible study. Hopingforachange - Yes, it sounds like you did catch things in time. Your marriage never got to SM stage if you were still having sex 2-3 times a month. It's not as much as many of us would like but it's not dire straits either. Glad you took a stand early before it got to the true SM point. If you have been depressed for about 2 years without actually having been in a SM, then finding this site and reading some true SM stories I am sure gives you some perspective and empathy. Having a spouse that *initiates* makes such a huge difference, doesn't it? Toward the end our my SM I refused to beg. I did an experiment in 2012 to see what would happen if I never initiated all year / never asked my refuser to have sex. I'm sure you know what the result of that experiment was: no sex all year! (shock, surprise) When my SM turned around (worst point: having sex just once in 4 years just prior to the turn around), it was *so* important that my refuser be the one to initiate. Everyone "wants to be wanted". All the best, sounds like you are on a normal upswing. Thanks for sharing. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 22, 2017 21:38:14 GMT -5
[TL2 condensed version of baza's post... just for reference:] "If" you are going to have a crack at reconstructing your marriage, it is going to start with *you*. *** In short, if you are to have any chance of 180ing your ILASM shithole, *you* need to sort your own shit out first. *** Now the other side of the coin. Your present spouse. Here is what you can do about them and their issues. *crickets chirp" Your present spouse, might see the example you are setting and choose to start sorting their shit out too (on the lines above) But that is something over which you have no control whatsoever. *** Sort your own shit out. That's where it all starts. Baza - Well said. I had similar thoughts a few years ago. When I finally said to myself "I'm not going to take it anymore", that triggered a do or die year with the marriage and I focused on trying to focus on myself and being a better and healthier person. I figured that was the best move no matter what because if the marriage wasn't able to be saved then I'd be a better person / spouse / partner for someone else. One other thing I would mention is that the turnaround does not have to be "disjointed" with each spouse acting on their own to make himself/herself better. Each person *does* have to come to their own internal conclusion that they have to change (1) himself / herself as a person, and (2) some things within the marriage relationship. For us, however, my W / former refuser would *not* have reached those conclusions *without* marriage / couples counseling. A team approach did work. Marriage counseling was essential for my refuser / W to focus on making some changes herself because obviously what I was saying wasn't considered "reasonable" until the same words and ideas were validated / supported by the counselor. So bottom line: if *both* spouses go into couples counseling admitting that *each* of them will have to change some things in order to save the marriage, and then both are responsible and each of them makes their needed changes, that can and does work too. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 8, 2017 23:02:12 GMT -5
Seeing the recent posts by @heraclitus and shamwow , I was inspired to find an old post I would post from time to time when new people joined the group. This post incorporates things they both just said but also summarizes some of the key things I've learned after a nearly 20 year SM and getting it to turn around. I tried to summarize a lot of good nuggets all in one post. Hope this helps some of you out there. TL2 *** Regarding your SM (defined as no sex or sex less than monthly / single digits each year), create a Plan A and assign a reasonable deadline for your spouse / refuser to make significant improvements, and also start thinking of a Plan B. Your spouse / refuser obviously doesn't see sex as a *need* in the marriage at this point. And it is. Just as is the need for emotional intimacy that your spouse may be seeking more of from you. Sex releases the love hormone oxytocin in *both* men and women. This is the same hormone that deepens the bond between mother and child. So when men and women have sex in a loving relationship, it can do tremendous things to deepen and grow their emotional intimacy at the same time. Make your choices based on this realization I had a few years ago: A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness. You've got to treat this as aggressively as "traditional" cheating. Similarly, a SM is like marriage cancer. You've got to treat it as aggressively as *actual* cancer. Sometimes even after aggressive treatment the cancer still wins and what was once full of life cannot be saved. Other times you can beat the cancer. If you're going to beat this marriage cancer (a SM) you've *both* got to be vested in the process, and an independent counselor (who you both concur on) will probably be your best chance of saving the marriage before the cancer gets worse. If one counselor does not help you after a reasonable time, be ready to move to another counselor. Even with a counselor though, sometimes significant damage has already been done and it may be extremely difficult to overcome, particularly if the SM (or virtual SM / single digits a year) has existed for an extremely long time (e.g. 2 years or longer). You both allocate time to work, you both allocate time to your kid(s) if any, and you both also need to allocate time to you and your relationship. Odds are that your refuser needs more things from you as well in order to more closely connect with you. Admit that neither of you is perfect and make the concession / effort that your refuser is asking for. But your refuser needs to hold his/her end of the bargain then too on what you want and need. You are probably in a "downward spiral" where neither of you feels their needs are being met and therefore you're not giving the other person what he/she needs. Realize you are different people and therefore your needs will likely be somewhat different. To reverse what you've got and to get into an “upward spiral”, you've *both* got to focus on the *giving* to the other person what he/she needs (not necessarily what *you* need). If you're both making an honest effort on that, then you can get an upward spiral going. These thoughts come from years of reading here (and previously on EP) and reaching my own conclusions. Do something now. Don't let another year waste away. These are the best years of your life. Make the most of them. Do not let your marriage decay into a marriage as suggested by Amanda Palmer in her YouTube video (and song) called "The Bed Song". Watch it and let that be your motivation. Share it with your refuser and it will definitely break the ice. Sweeping this issue under the rug or sticking your head in the sand on this issue will get you nowhere. It will only get worse. Communication is key. Difficult conversations, yes, but that's why an independent counselor can be helpful / often is needed.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 8, 2017 22:55:08 GMT -5
A SM is kind of like a cancer with modern medicine. If it is caught early, often it can be dealt with quickly and easily with a minimum amount of pain. As time goes by, however, treatment becomes more time consuming, difficult, and painful. If sexless changes into loveless that is like the cancer spreading. Can it be treated at this point? Yes, but the odds just went way down. If loveless changes to hate and disrespect then even reset sex becomes little more effective than asprin. Very few stage 4 cancer patients in hospice go into remission. Most people in this forum appear to be well into stage 3 (myself included) or into stage 4. Perhaps if SM had the same lack of social stigma that cancer has it could be treated early and easily in many cases. I came up with the *same* analogy when EP was around. Good minds think alike! You've inspired me to find an old post and re-share it here. Will do that separately below. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jan 8, 2017 22:49:38 GMT -5
I think SM can be turned around but it takes both people to do it. I used the ideas from His need and Her needs building an affair proof marriage, see the website www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi3000_intro.html He is a Christian. I'm not religious and found much useful information from the book. Some of the roles in the book could easily be reversed. It does not take away from the the ideas in the work, just realize that when he says a man it could be a woman to.. 1. I no longer told my wife about hurt feelings and blaming her. I made it known that I have basic needs that need to be met. When I married her, she agreed to meet those needs. In return I meet her needs. Marriage is about negotiation. Love is earned and not something that just happens. You earn that love by meeting the person's needs. We have basic needs and when they are fulfilled, then it's like deposits in the bank. Read more above on the website about the love bank. When those needs are not met then withdrawals began to happen. So you eventually reach a point where there is negative balance. If it's bad enough the marriage falls apart. This is not only applies to marriage but friendships. If you are always taking then a person will not stick around usually. Your spouse's needs may not be sexual. It could be financial security, or doing a hobby with them. This may be their top need. So as a spouse you may not like dancing but if it is what makes your spouse the most happy then you do it. 2. My number one need is sex. I told my wife that I need it at least twice a week. I would prefer it three but would settle for two. I knew if I said two then it may be one. My wife has been meeting this need for the last couple of months. Number 2 need was intimacy with hugging, snuggling, and kissing. Now my wife has not been as good about this. I should not complain because I'm getting laid and it's my number one need. If I was just getting hugged and kissed, I would go around blue balled. This may be a little peevish on my part. I should be honest and say that wife came home tonight and asked me if I wanted to snuggle on the couch. I just reminded her several days ago about my needs for warmth in a relationship. I told her that it had been several months since we last discussed everything. I had asked her if she wanted to be the wife that I want. She said yes. In return I had to straighten up some things that I was doing to her. So it really goes both ways if you want to fix the marriage. I have to be the husband she wants in return. There is no easy panacea to having a good relationship. It takes daily work and being present. 3. I've had to make sacrifices to my wife to meet her needs. Unfortunately her no 1. need was not sex. There are times that I have to do things I do not want to do. I just do it with a smile on my face and it's getting easier. I can't expect my wife to meet my needs if I do not reciprocate. My marriage has made an abrupt turn from the past. I had to give an ultimatum to my wife. This has caused some stress in the relationship. When your spouse tells you that they'll make up their mind if they want to stay depending on how things go, it does not make it easy. But it cuts out the bullshit quick. The reality of the situation sets in quickly for the refusing spouse. I don't beg for sex anymore. I hold my head head high around the house now because I no longer accept the marriage as it was. My wife respects me now and I have more respect for myself. We still get into disagreements but I pick my battles more careful now. It's only those things that are important. I no longer bring up the past, nor does she. 4. One of the consequences of turning my marriage around was working on myself. I realized that I had become pretty pathetic. I had brutal honesty for myself because I had enough. I have changed much faster than my wife but then I've been thinking about this much longer than her. Now I find myself questioning if I should stay. My needs are met but will it be enough? Will my wife become the woman that I want for a wife? I'm looking for excellence in my marriage. I want a special relationship. I've had enough of just good enough. I'm willing to do the work and hoping that my wife will step up more. If she does not, then I'll have to leave. Tonight was a good sign since she suggested being close. My wife has told me that she wants the same thing out of our marriage. I need to see action and change over the next couple of months. I do not expect a miracle but things should slowly improve and move in a positive direction. We also have a good friendship for a base. But as I've said before being close friends does not make for a great lover or intimacy. I know that I may sound a little negative but I'm a realist. I realize that my relationship could turn out great or go bad. I'm not going to delude myself either way. I'm only looking at the facts and what transpires not what is said. Very well said... I agree with practically everything you said and I had a very similar situation and turnaround. Thanks for posting this recap of your situation. I think others will find it helpful. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 31, 2016 17:50:12 GMT -5
What do you mean by turn it around? There are a handful of people who have gone from a sexless marriage to one with sex in it. Although as baza said a couple of them subsequently seem to have gone downhill. My worry is more what happens if you do turn it around? Even timeforliving2 , who is kind of like a poster child around here for possibility, doesn't strike me as being entirely thrilled with the results. (Sorry TL2!!!) If you take somebody who really doesn't want to fuck you and manage to get them to compromise to the point where they are willing to do it, or even happy to do it, even if you get engaged sex once a week, what is the chance of them ever approaching sex with the kind of enthusiasm that is really going to make you happy? It is just not going to happen. As mettamomma used to say on EP with alarming regularity, if you have to beg, bargain, threaten or cajole somebody into having sex with you, you are never going to have the kind of intimate sex life that you really want. unmatched and beachguy... It's true that I'm not on Cloud 9 with sex with my W even after our turnaround nearly 3 years ago. But I keep this in perspective and I do have *hope* my W can and will change further as time progresses. I am fairly satisfied with the frequency (of course I wish it were a bit more but not too bad all things considered), and I wish it were more spontaneous more often, and I wish it were more adventurous/playful. We have several complicating factors / family life & health events going on in our household that are making life more stressful and honestly I've probably been letting that be a bit too much of an excuse than I should have (e.g. it's probably a bit my fault for letting some further opportunities for growth in sexual intimacy "slide"... and not be as persistent as I should have). I haven't pushed too hard. My wife *does* know that I like flirting physically with her, and when she remembers, she gets a bit "handsy" with me. Last night, for example, we were lining up for family pictures with my parents, siblings, kids and us... with a camera on a tripod and I'm running the show... and my wife grabs my crotch as I'm lining up behind her! Made me smile a little better for the picture, no doubt! So I don't think she's asexual .... there's a side to her that can be further developed I think. It's up to both of us to keep at it. On the frequency side, keep this in mind... Once we started having sex again, I started keeping a log of the times we had sex because I wanted to make sure we stayed in a normal range and I didn't want to forget anything (e.g. if my W started to argue that we were having sex more frequently and we weren't, etc.). So here are my numbers since 2009, which I am happy to share, since I think it may be helpful for people trying to determine for themselves if I've been successful or not: 2009 - 1 2010 - 0 2011 - 1 2012 - 0 2013 - 2 (in first half of the year; started going to marriage counseling in late November) 2014 - 62 (first 2 weekends in January had sex twice each weekend) 2015 - 45 2016 - 40 So, yes, sex has tapered off a bit due to (1) almost all of our sex is on weekend mornings, and (2) due to timing of her colds and periods it hasn't been good timing on weekends. But if we're healthy / nothing physically interfering we're usually chatting about things / being a little flirty on Thursday or Friday about when we're going to do it that weekend. And in the grand scheme of things, I've had sex almost 150 times in the last 3 years (average of 49 times/yr), and in the 5 years prior to that, we had sex less than once a year. Given that perspective, has my turnaround been successful? Is the glass half full or half empty? Yes, I know it could be even better and I want it to be better, but both of my kids have health issues and/or counseling issues, my wife has her own "issues" to deal with (a bit perfectionist, a bit controlling with our kids, dealing with her parents, and to her credit, trying to manage a lot of things going on in our lives / run the household while working part time in our business), and I have been spending a lot of time trying to run a small business while trying to decide if I should get back into the corporate world while also taking care of home renovation projects, exercise more, and in general trying to be happier and healthier in other areas of my life (e.g. my personal happiness does not come solely from my spouse). All in all, I am relatively happy that I'm significantly better off than I was 3 years ago. But I also want to strive for more and better sexual intimacy, in time. Life is a balancing act, and there are lot of pieces I'm trying to balance. Looking ahead in 2017, I think I will push a little more / ask a little more for us grow more with our sex life. Hope this update is helpful. Happy to chat more on this on these posts or privately with anyone. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Dec 29, 2016 22:37:10 GMT -5
There has been very little evidence over the years that 'scheduled sex' has any success in an ILIASM shithole environment. But then again, there has been precious little evidence that ANYTHING has any success in an ILIASM shithole environment. - It could well be a goer in a different environment, say a 'jaded' marriage, though. Baz, I generally agree with your comments but realize that my case was an exception... so I guess I fall under the very little evidence category. FYI for others... For what it's worth: Scheduling sex is what saved my marriage 3 years ago. We were in a marriage counseling session, exactly 3 years ago / just before New Year's Day, when my W / refuser was basically saying she's so busy, there's no time for sex, she always feels so stressed / feels behind on things so she's not in the mood, etc. Our marriage counselor thankfully did not let my W / refuser off the hook with that comment. (I flat out told our marriage counselor separately in an initial session to understand *my* side of things... that sex was a dealbreaker, and I was willing to walk if we couldn't resolve things in a few months). He pushed back and said to my W / refuser: "There are 168 hours in the week. Certainly there has to be *some* time in there for sex. What time of day, and/or days of the week, do you feel the *least* amount of stress?" Then we all sat and waited until my W responded. After a few minutes my W admitted that on weekends, and specifically on weekend mornings, she feels the least amount of stress. About a week later, after another session and my W / refuser and I *starting* to communicate / understand each other a little better.... My W actually initiated on the first Saturday morning in the new year. I was blown away (figuratively). Amazingly we also had sex again the very next day on Sunday morning. Keeping sex on that part of our calendar (scheduling it if you will)... started our road to recovery. Bottom line, we know what times works best for her, and therefore us (and quite frankly it works well given everyone in the household.... the kids are sleeping in on weekend mornings as well). It's weekend mornings that we always have penciled off and usually a day or two before the weekend we're "planning" it with a little more detail. As the article says, sex about once a week seems to do the most to preserve a decently healthy sex life with couples. Once you have that in place, it's about quality. Personally, we're still struggling with the quality (e.g. I've been hoping for more for a while now... have more spontaneity, me wanting to be more adventurous, etc. ), but at least sex almost weekly keeps me sane and helps keep a bond between us that had been missing for the prior 2 decades. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Nov 21, 2016 22:17:22 GMT -5
It's a tough decision to come to but ripping off the bandaid is an accurate description. When i realized that i will never receive from my spouse what i needed in a marriage I was so nervous to tell him I was going to get a divorce but at the same time I felt so relieved and so happy when I informed him of my decision. I guess what made it the most difficult to finally rip off the bandaid and tell him was that I didn't want to make him sad. However I can't be responsible for his happiness and if he didn't care enough about my happiness that he could compromise in some way to show me love and affection then you reap what you sow. Relationships are about compatibility and compromise. Good luck with your bandaid. You are doing the right thing. "Relationships are about compatibility and compromise." Bingo... Well said. I'll also add the obvious "communication" and I think we have the 3 most important C's of relationships. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 12, 2016 22:50:06 GMT -5
Hi married woman 42. Just hoping to find others that have experienced or are experiencing similar issues that I am in my so called "marriage." Husband lies, cheats n is addicted to porn. But doesn't seem to want anything to do with me. I'm sure there are other places for me to tell my story. Thank you and I look forward to chatting with everyone! Welcome. You should re-post the full details of your story here. The other thread you posted it on was a bit out of place / someone else's story. It would be easier to follow it here. Or start a new thread in a different category. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 11, 2016 19:49:33 GMT -5
Can you "repair" a marriage from the point where you're here, in ILIASM?I've seen marriages where the couple burned it completely to the ground, then rebuilt it from the ashes to something resembling the former structure, but on a burned foundation, damaged, but functional. I've seen marriages where one promised to "do better" and the other settled for a "tolerable" life. I've seen marriages where the one....gave up and sank into an abyss of numb. I've seen marriages where the sword of Damocles is ever present. Out of all of these, I believe the lack of truly honest and open communication, guided by love, could be what stopped them from reaching the heights that timeforliving2 was able to achieve. Are they a life? Are the a real marriage? Only they can answer that. Only they need to answer that. For themselves. (Edit: added "but functional" to burned down, rebuilt, damaged....thoe marriage) ** Wow, I'm out for a few days and I get multiple tags in the posts here. OK, I have to respond briefly though I have to log out shortly. baza I appreciate your compliments from a related post as well but this one appeared chronologically first so I'm responding to it. itsjustus, let me just say that, even in my turned around marriage... going from SM to some kind of normalcy... I personally wouldn't think of it as "reaching the heights" of some mountain top of a perfect marriage. It's far from it. I think it went from the precipice of hell (I was so close to walking) up to an "average" marriage. No higher. I still do not think we are soul mates, and I personally don't believe in that concept. I think there are varying degrees of compatibility. We have some things in common, but there are several other things that we have big differences... different likes... and things I didn't see at the time when I was young and naive and in love and when I proposed... at the mature age of 23. Regarding making the marriage work, it's like you all said so far... It takes good 2-way communication and some honest listening and trying to meet each other's needs, despite your differences. That is how we were able to make this thing work. That is how we got sex back in the marriage. When people talk about having sex, I'm sure most people think primarily of two things: (1) how often, and (2) what kind. Our turnaround occurred in January 2014 and I'd say on average we've had sex about once a week since then. Since January 2014 there's never been a gap where the sex slowed down to less than 2x/month, which would have been very rare. I will say for whatever reason we've been on a very slight decline but not too bad. My point of concern would be if we were averaging 3 times a month or less, which we're not. So just on quantity on the one hand it's been amazing... going from essentially zero to 50 times a year is like night and day. You need that to keep an intimate connection going. You need that in a marriage, hands down. But on the other hand... what kind of sex.... for us it's almost always scheduled and the same routine. This relates to the conservative upbringing my W had and it's tough to change. I'll have to have a separate post on the specifics as to why we haven't had some extended 1+ hour mind-blowing sex yet, but there are a few factors. It's possible for my W to change further but it takes work / effort... and for now, at least we have a basic routine going and, coming from a nearly 20 year SM I really can't complain much. It's currently way better than I've ever had it. Two way communication. Understanding. Compromise. Empathy. Willingness to change. Willingness to *give* to one another. That's where it's at. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 6, 2016 1:11:59 GMT -5
So me and the refuser were supposed to go to counseling for the last 3 weeks and 2 of those 3 weeks there was an excuse on his part as to why he couldn't go. I basically see this as another sign that nothing is going to change on his part. Last week Friday I finally had the "talk" with him and explained that I want a separation. Of course he broke down crying apologizing and asking for another chance. As sure as I am about my decision, I am incredibly sad and hurt. It feels like I failed at keeping the marriage together - even though I know he had a role to play too. I hate seeing him so sad and crying and the impact a separation will have on my kids is even worse to think about. I know I can't stay with him because I refuse to live a celibate life yet it seems so hard to leave. I wish there was an "easy button" ;/ Pinkskies - You may want to check out this thread I just started. Read the article and see if your H falls into 1 or more of these toxic categories. This may also help as you go about doing things from this point forward. TL2 10 Toxic People Quiz
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 6, 2016 1:06:29 GMT -5
Yes, if both partners are totally committed to change. I would be interested to know how long the turnarounds lasted. Did the refuser go back to refusing once the coast was clear? Actually, no. In the case of the wife who was in 28 yrs., she reported that her husband had a Damascus Road type of experience, that he changed their yearly vacation destination so that they could combine it with a men's hormonal facility. Three years after the blow-up, she reported that she had never imagined that her marriage could have been so great. The guy I know of, who I believe I mentioned once before, is the one who gave his wife an ultimatum: change or move out. She threatened divorce, but when he got the classified ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she agreed to his terms of counseling, reading a book by Dr. Laura (of all people!), and frequency of at least once a week. He reported two years afterwards that his wife kept up her part of the 'bargain' and hadn't tried to back off. It's been a while since I read the third person's account (a wife), but I seem to remember that the ultimatum of separation had long-term effect, as well. CSL - As baza mentioned I am one of the very few out of the EP membership who had a turnaround. As @phinheasgage asked, how long do these turnarounds last? I think it depends on how much leverage you have, how much your refuser spouse actually needs you, and how well both partners / spouses communicate with each other. In my deal, I think I had a lot of leverage, my spouse really needed me, and we also communicated well about our needs and wants... and actually listened / did things differently (with help of a counselor) when the marriage was on the line. TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 6, 2016 0:51:56 GMT -5
I saw this article and thought it might be helpful. The main concept is that it's important to identify the main *types* of toxic people, then respond by establishing boundaries and choosing when to engage them. I am sure this article was not written with spouses / partners in mind. Still, there are perhaps some people reading in this forum where perhaps they haven't gotten married and/or aren't seriously involved yet and/or haven't had kids yet. Read this and save yourself! And if you are married, this article might be even more reason why you need to get out. www3.forbes.com/leadership/10-toxic-people-you-should-avoid-at-all-costs/Take this opportunity for a survey as well: How many of these "types" describe your refuser (or ex-refuser / ex-spouse)? 5 out of 10? 10 out of 10? Finally, take to heart the first page of this article... Toxic people have a measurable negative effect on us... on our brains / central command! Warning Will Robinson... Retreat! Cut bait! Move on! TL2
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