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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 26, 2018 22:24:18 GMT -5
Wow! I can relate to a lot of this. Thanks for sharing! I was raised to be “nice” by a very critical mother. I’ve had to do a LOT of work to calm my self-criticism and learn to say “no” to things that really don’t work or fit for me. In the context of my SM, I’ve been too nice and too accommodating. And in the process, my needs and desires have become secondary to those of my spouse, when in fact, they should be equal important. Learning to advocate for myself on all fronts! I too was way too nice in the early years of our marriage. We had not lived together before marriage, so when we did start living together and my W wanted to do something a certain way, I just went along with it... I didn't want to "create conflict" so early into our marriage and get things started off on the wrong foot. That was my thinking back then. I remember thinking - from what I heard others say - that marriage was about compromise. So it seemed normal to not get my way all the time, and I guess I felt that it was "normal" not to get my way at least half the time. If I was getting my way more than half the time then I would be greedy / insensitive. Therefore, I let my W have her way most of the time. I was being the "nice guy".... the kind of guy this article talks about.
Yes, our individual needs are just as important as our spouse's / partner's. In fact, I tend to think of "the marriage" (or "the relationship") as its own person so to speak... so in our joint lives, there are 3 sets of needs: H's needs, W's needs, and "the marriage's" needs. I think this drives the point across perhaps a little clearer that, in a healthy relationship, ALL THREE of those needs are being met.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 26, 2018 22:19:39 GMT -5
Great read - thanks for sharing that. A lot of the article resonated with me too. When we are “too nice” that we are allowing our kindness to be taken for weakness then we really lose parts of our authentic selves, which is so unhealthy. It’s like in an airplane, when the oxygen mask comes down we put it on ourselves first. Focusing on ourselves and our needs makes us better and healthier for the others in our life and understanding that there is no such thing as a perfect life. Again thanks for sharing that - great read! You're welcome. Glad you and catsloveme found it as helpful as I did. BTW I saw on a different thread that today was your birthday... so Happy Birthday... and make it a great weekend as well! You will no doubt be reading this the next day as I also saw that "plans" were in the works for tonight. Kudos!
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 26, 2018 13:16:17 GMT -5
I stumbled across this "trending article" on the internet today and thought it was a good read. They don't directly talk about SMs here, but this resonated with me because I saw some of myself in this article... I generally try to be the "nice guy". But like the author says.... we shouldn't always be "nice". We have to take a stand on things that are important. There *are* times when conflict is *good*.
Having worked through my SM to a reasonable level, I can truly say I would still be stuck in a SM if I had not created some conflict in the marriage / forced us to seriously address the issue *now*. Conflict was necessary at that time and was long overdue. Conflict (not being nice anymore) forced the issue to the top of the priority list and achieved a different result, rather than staying with the unhealthy status quo.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 26, 2018 13:04:53 GMT -5
I am of the complete opposite mindset. I think a much greater percentage stay in their SMs rather than leave, even if miserable. Don't underestimate the power of fear of the unknown. I agree with @workingonit that many who choose to stay in their SMs (or perhaps, feel they have no choice but to stay) likely don't stick around here indefinitely due to the pro-leaving attitude of the board and also because: if you feel stuck in a shitty situation, being constantly reminded of your shitty situation doesn't necessarily help your mindframe. I think people stop participating here as a form of self-preservation. I think you are fairly on target with your assessment / theory of who sticks around these boards.
FWIW - I'll share my personal situation and how I was active / inactive on these boards. It took me about 3 years from when I first joined the former EP site to when I took specific actions to force a result.... either turn this SM around or leave (e.g. counseling vs. separation/divorce).
On New Year's Day 2011 (1/1/11) I was searching for SMs and found and joined the EP site. However, for 2+ years I was sporadic about logging in to the site and reading posts. I never posted any replies or any of my own stuff until approximately March 2013. From approximately June 2013 - October 2013 I was very active, sharing my story, reading and posting a lot, etc. This was because in late December 2012 I resolved that 2013 was the year that things *had* to change for me. I took off my wedding ring and that point and wrote a 1-page letter / note to my refuser W that things *had* to change in 2013 (e.g. in so many words I implied divorce because I was so broken and unhappy).
Anyway, the point is that the first 2 years I merely lurked and sporadically read things on the EP site. In that third year I really became active. I would imagine that everyone is different, in terms of how urgent they are / feel about *resolving* the SM issue. I lot of people probably are, like you say, depressed and don't want to be constantly reminded about their shitty situation. Therefore, probably like me, they come back sporadically just when they get more frustrated than average... but they're not on these boards every day or every week.
Just my 2 cents.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 25, 2018 11:37:47 GMT -5
timeforliving2 I think your comment is so valuable and I hope a lot of people see it. Thanks. I learned a lot from the EP group back in the day... so many posts, chats, and discussions. Without it who knows what my life would be today, but I would probably be posting about a nearly 25 year SM rather than a 19 year SM. I've got to pay it forward in this successor ILIASM Forum group and help others with my own perspective and advice when I can. Everyone's SM situation is different / unique but there are common threads and themes throughout. The hard part is trying to absorb everything and make an educated decision about how you want to apply it to your specific SM. That takes time, reflection, discussion, reading, learning, and self-awareness /self-understanding.... among many other things (the list goes on). One key take-away though is you can't "wait" forever and "hope" things will change. You've got to, at some point, take action and come up with a few strategies to addresses the situation. You have to also come up with a Plan A, a Plan B, and maybe even a Plan C... and to resolve ahead of time to be OK with those Plan B and Plan C situations if they play out. And you have to have time limits for your Plans A, B and C. In my situation Plan A = joint counseling. Plan B = separation. Plan C = divorce. I never did proceed to Plan B but I came awfully close and I would have been (I was ready to be) OK with that.
I did mention quite a few things in my prior post last night about my SM, the turnaround, compatibility, and my current status. I hope a lot of people see it too.... Hope it all helps!
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 24, 2018 23:58:27 GMT -5
Brother @time4living2 has a credible story of successfully clearing the mine of noxious and explosive gases, and so far since doing that, his canary has survived. Bear in mind that the clearing of the mine was a herculean effort of time and resources on his part AND he had a willing assistant. Also bear in mind that there are 1,191 members here so Brother T4L2 represents 00.08% of that figure. However, if *you* are pretty much like Brother T4L2 in your outlook and motivation and skill set you are bringing to the table - AND IF YOUR MISSUS IS PRETTY MUCH LIKE MRS T4L2 IN HER OUTLOOK, MOTIVATION AND AND SKILL SET SHE IS BRINGING TO THE TABLE - then you might have a shot. So the obvious question is, are you like T4L2 ?.....and is your missus like Mrs T4L2 ? FWIW, my answers to those questions was - (a) - Brother T4L2 had much more resilience and focus than me, so I was NOT like him. He's a better man than me. (b) - My missus was nothing like Mrs T4L2 So my chances of emulating Brother T4L2's result was 00.00%. Your mileage may vary.. T4L2 did not "revive the canary". What he (with the able assistance of Mrs T4L2) did was to create a new environment that a new canary could live in. And if the collective evidence of this group is anything to go by, there are few - if any - cases here that show the potential to emulate our Brother T4L2 (and missus). Thanks for the kind words baza ... I'm not sure I'm a better man really... I easily could have moved on if my W / refuser had waited another few months before trying to initiate sex. I think we had a good / above average counselor that my W and I both trusted, and he was able to get through a few key things to my W that I had been unable to do in 19 years of marriage.
To your point, though... I think we did create a new environment that was helpful. In simple terms, my W's primary need was emotional intimacy, and my primary need was physical touch / physical intimacy / sex. After so many years of drifting apart, we were in a "downward spiral"... she wasn't giving me what I needed and therefore certainly I was resentful and didn't give her what she needed. Through counseling and better understanding of each others' needs, we were able to reverse the direction to create an "upward spiral"... Enough sex and other physical touch / intimacy to meet my primary need and me spending more (other) quality time with her to meet her emotional intimacy primary need. And surprise, surprise... with more "practice" at sex we've gotten better at it too... much better than the once-a-year 15-minute roll between the sheets.
There were so many factors that came into play with my deal... so many things I did, that I really should write a thorough chapter on it. I started on the old EP site but never finished a full story.
Yes, I think the odds are against people by the time they start doing internet searches on "sexless marriage". A lot of damage has been done at that point. Knowing what I know, I generally would advocate people "Giving it one last shot" with a good counselor, let your refuser know that, and then if it doesn't work in a pre-determined and communicated "reasonable amount of time", then be willing to at least separate and thereafter divorce if you can't reconcile. Life is too short to live unhappy.
Now I'm going to segue to provide some additional perspective on my / our 4 1/2 year SM recovery...
For the record, my marriage is not perfect... and with the wisdom I've gained from EP and this ILIASM Forum I do not believe in soulmates. I do believe in degrees / levels of compatibility. For example, on the scale of 1 to 100, ask yourself how compatible are you with your spouse / partner? Ask me on any given day and I’ll probably give you an answer between 50-70. Above average technically on that basis, but is that degree of compatibility good enough to be reasonably happy? My marriage will probably never be anything higher than an 80 on the compatibility rating, even if things improve from here. Am I OK with that? Currently I am. There are some things I enjoy doing by myself and with my own friends / without the W. She doesn’t like doing those things / we’re not compatible in those areas, so we do some separate things. I will never like some of her things and she will never like some of my things. I’ve accepted it.
Given that I don’t believe in soulmates, could I be happier with someone else? No doubt, yes, because there are 7 billion people on this earth. And no doubt, when marriage and raising a family is at stake, I shouldn’t have settled on anything short of a 95 compatibility rating. The thing is though, in my young 20s I was naïve and actually thought we were a 95 or so. I didn’t realize some of our key differences back then and I certainly knew nothing about SMs. Love at the time was blind.
Are the differences and/or certain aspects of unhappiness enough for me to want to divorce now? No. Before, at the worst of our SM I probably would rate our compatibility in the 0-10 range. Now we’re in the 50-70 range. However the SM has forever changed me – even though I am happier now. How? I now know that divorce is an option at any time. Being married to someone is a *daily* choice. Before 2013 my stronger religious beliefs effectively prevented me from divorcing. Now, I logically know that option is on the table at any time if things were to get bad enough. I would not hesitate at all to go back to counseling, and if that didn’t work, to separate or divorce.
I went on a bit of a tangent there in response to Baz’s post, but hopefully it provides a bit more understanding as to my successful recovery from my SM deal. Bottom line is that it currently works enough for me to stay in this marriage, given a whole bunch of factors which I could elaborate on in a whole other chapter. However, even with a reasonable amount of sex back in the picture, I’m not living a fairy tale marriage with a soulmate. Just trying to tell it straight up. Call me a success with a footnote / living an average happy marriage / whatever you want. If sex is the only statistic we’re tracking, then I’ve not had a SM since 12/31/13 and I’m in reasonable sex land. Carry on with your stats.
TL2
P.S. If anyone wants further perspective, check out my recent posts, and any prior posts as well. I was on hiatus for about 8-10 months but will try to check back in here a lot more regularly going forward. This last week was actually a good week for me to get reconnected here.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 22:42:10 GMT -5
We started out a clueless virgin teenagers. But we were enthusiastic, experimental and horny.that lasted 30 years and has been sliding downhill since as far as quantity. But she is not a psycho like so many spouses of our members. On the positive side the frequency of sex cannot get much worse. Yes, Jim, there's nowhere to go but up on the frequency. It's downright painful to be in a SM no doubt, but it sounds like you had 30 good years in the beginning. I didn't know that before... so that's good. You both know what the good stuff is / was like. Hope you can get something going again.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 16:07:43 GMT -5
I don't know if I ever told this story but TL2's story about demands made me think of it. After 5 years of marriage I almost divorced my h. At that point we had been totally sexless for 2 years and had really crappy, short, anxiety ridden sex prior to that. He had some other things about money and not wanting to work. Things were awful. I was preparing to move out and my MIL talked me into therapy first. We did some therapy and it helped. I told my h I would stay and try if a) he got a job and b) we had frequent sex that involved me having an orgasm. (Which had not happened with him until then) He said yes on both counts! I would say what followed was the best our marriage had to offer for a few years. Sex 3-4 times monthly. The sex tapered. Of course a special needs kid added stress, parental sickness, etc. You all know where this went. Within 4 years we were totally sexless again and have been since. I am not saying your changes are not real TL2 but in my experience changes made under duress are not real, deep, permanent changes. Time will tell though.
Everyone's situation is unique... there is a ton more I could say about my situation... write a book on it no doubt. However, I think there is a difference between what I did and, for example, some of the demands that greatcoastal suggested several posts back in this chain. I personally agree with the consensus response to that / I think some of those specific demands don't work with most people (e.g. I want to have sex with you after dinner and before bedtime, I want to see you naked on the bed tomorrow morning and ready for sex, etc.).
The only "ultimatum" I gave my spouse / was that I would not kiss her / touch her again until we went to counseling. That lasted maybe two weeks and was very effective. It got us into counseling. From that point forward we handled things through counseling and it became a needed negotiation of sorts... listening to what each other needed out of the marriage to make it work, and each agreeing to do some things differently to accommodate the other's needs. One positive is that we both generally know that Sat/Sun morning is the best time for use to have sex, so we've got it in mind every weekend, without asking about it. On Friday we're pretty much talking about which day on the weekend is going to work best. On the negative side, it's almost always scheduled sex in that sense, and is rarely spontaneous. It is occasionally, but almost always a Sat/Sun morning thing.
Re: for us, will it last? Well, surprise, surprise... Now that we started having sex more regularly my W actually enjoys sex more now. She has her own female issues and it's difficult for her to orgasm (she also had stage IV endometriosis earlier where things were very painful), but that being said, she likes sex more too / she enjoys it even if she doesn't orgasm. That's our situation at least. FWIW.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 14:34:36 GMT -5
Interesting approach and very logical. My wife have been in counseling for a little over a year and I am not seeing a lot of progress on the marriage though we both appear to be working on ourselves and we don't argue as much. The sex has not come back however (at all!), which concerns me after a year of marital counseling. To your point timeforliving2, perhaps I need to be more emphatic that the lack of a mutually rewarding sex life in our marriage is a dealbreaker for me and set some sort of a timeline. Right now, there isn't one and I can see this going on for the indefinite future. Sex doesn't seem to be her priority. She is looking to rebuild the emotional connection. I see that she needs that also, but I think sex needs to be a part of that process. They go hand in hand for me.
Definitely. I think you need to have a separate / solo session with just you and the counselor. If the counselor says that, because of the joint counseling, that he/she cannot keep any secrets from your spouse, that's fine. But meet separately with the counselor and tell him / her that you are frustrated (not disappointed, but frustrated) that the SM aspect of your marriage hasn't been resolved yet in over a year, and it has *now* become a dealbreaker issue for you. You are willing to separate from your spouse within a "reasonable time" if you cannot get this resolved. You and your W will then further discuss and determine what that reasonable time is.
Your counselor - being paid hourly / per session - has a financial interest in having this continue indefinitely, correct? You need to take some control and let the counselor know that fixing dealbreaker / most important issues with your marriage is not an open-ended proposition and has limits. Tell the counselor that if you don't see some significant improvements on these key issues in the next 1 month / 4 weekly sessions (e.g. sex / physical intimacy, and emotional connection as your W's primary issue), then you are going to start looking for a new counselor. Tell the counselor that regardless, even if you stay with that counselor, if things cannot be resolved on these key issues within your reasonable time frame (e.g. say, 3-6 months) then you are going to separate.
Your counselor, armed with this knowledge, will probably want to schedule a separate session with just your W, and convey your new thoughts / resolutions to your W in his/her own way. That is *GOOD*.
Just for reference... this is how my deal worked out.. in a very quick nutshell:
- SM for 18 1/2 years (no sex for a few years, but in all other years single digits, probably on average 4x / year.
- At that point, approx. 1/1/13, I took my ring off and, in so many words told my refuser W that we *need* to get this resolved in 2013.
- Approx. late Oct 2013, I refused my refuser (would no longer kiss etc.)
- We were seeing a counselor by approx. 3rd week of November. My W and I each had separate sessions with the counselor first, then we had joint sessions thereafter. The counselor wanted to talk to each of us 1 on 1 before starting joint counseling so he'd have a good feeling of what the issues were. It was in that initial individual / private session that I told the counselor that I was willing to walk. I am *sure* that got communicated back to my W, who I know didn't want to lose me and also didn't believe in / didn't want a divorce
- For the record, I personally felt like my W would never change and this counseling attempt was going to end up being a formality before separating and then divorcing. My W had been very stubborn on this issue for our entire nearly-20 year marriage. When talking with 2 close friends prior to this point, they both asked if we had been to counseling yet, and I told them no. So I felt like I owed it to my W, my kids, and our marriage to at least try counseling and appear to make a good faith attempt to save the marriage, even though I strongly believed my W would never change. I thought that if I separated or divorced without going to counseling, that it would look bad to everyone else. Counseling seemed to be the first question that everyone was going to ask about, so if I *was* going to take that leap of separating / getting divorced, I at least wanted it to look like I tried. But again, I was almost positive my W would never change on this SM issue.
- After 6 weeks of joint counseling... that first weekend in Jan 2014... my W rolled over in bed on Saturday morning and after a few minutes of chatting, said to me something like: "why don't you shave and shower and I'll be ready for you on the bed when you get out." I couldn't believe it / just about had a heart attack. After one fast shower we had sex for the first time in about 8 months, had sex the next day on Sunday, and averaged more than weekly sex for that year.
- We continued counseling for about a year after first having regular sex again in Jan 2014. We did scale back on the frequency of counseling, though, after our SM breakthrough... we went from weekly to 2x/month to monthly to every 2 months over that next year, before stopping counseling. In 2014 I wanted to keep the counseling going because it was my "insurance" to help ensure that the sex would continue / wouldn't stop! After 6 months of sex I felt reasonably reassured that we were OK and I started wearing my wedding ring again. I intentionally did not put my ring back on right away because I was trying to make sure this wasn't reset sex.
Truth be told, my marriage (sex and otherwise) isn't as good as it could be / as I'd want it to be... and sex has slowly tapered off in the last 4 1/2 years... but I attribute that, in large part, to some rare but big health issues that our daughter has had... which took 3 1/2 years for the doctors to finally diagnose (in May this year). It's complicated and we were ready to take her out of state to Mayo Clinic, but following up, researching health issues, and coordinating all of the medical stuff for my daughter really sapped my W's energy / created a ton of stress in the household. We currently are having sex about 2-3x / month and it's almost always a predictable Saturday or Sunday morning / rarely spontaneous, but given what I've been through with the SM, it's a huge improvement / is enough sex to keep me sane / feeling normal. I had just about as much sex in 2014 as I did in the prior 19 years of marriage. Even though it's gradually dropped in frequency since 2014 it's still a lot better than what it was prior to 2014, and again, is understandable with our family's / my daughter's situation.
All the best. Hope this helps.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 11:39:05 GMT -5
First thought: From my years on these boards, people generally refer to a SM as either being entirely sexless, OR having sex less than once a month / single digits each year. For all practical purposes, your marriage is a SM. And it sounds like you still want to try to save it / want to see if you can get a spark going again. I have recovered from a SM to a better marriage, so I'll offer some thoughts from my perspective, since you may find that helpful. BTW - The first 19 1/2 years of my marriage was a SM, using that definition above. There were a few years where it was completely sexless, but most of the time it was single digits for sex each year.
If your spouse is not initiating, then either (1) SHE has an issue that she has to work through first, or (2) YOU BOTH have an issue you need to work through first. When my SM was at its worst, I didn't want reset sex or pity sex. I wanted HER to want ME. So when you mention, "How do YOU get the motivation to initiate...?"... I think the main issue (if you are like me) is that what you would really want is for HER to initiate. Correct?
My W and I could not have recovered from our SM if : (1) we hadn't had some honest conversations, and (2) we were BOTH willing to make some changes (and in doing so, admit that each of us wasn't perfect). Our counselor helped us to do that.
I think that for best results on this one you actually need to talk about some things first. The # 1 topic YOU want to have an honest conversation about is sex, of course. You can try to do this without a counselor, but you may find that you need one. If you want to try without a counselor, I'd suggest something like this: Tell her that you want to spend more quality time with her, and you miss having open and honest conversations with her (e.g. perhaps like when you were dating). Carve out 1/2 hour or 1 hour to do this. Have her lead off with something SHE wants to talk about, and then you follow it up with something YOU want to talk about. If you are able to carve out an hour (and who knows, it may lead to more than an hour), then maybe have a few easier topics to talk about first, and then after a few questions back and forth / X minutes, transition the topic to sex. Ask when was the best sex she had with you. Say that you miss that time and then ask WHEN during the week (day of the week, time of day) would be the best time for you to have sex. FYI - Our counselor drove that point home to my W when we were in counseling (e.g. "There are 168 hours in the week... there has to be SOME time in there in which you feel the least amount of stress... with the best potential to be physically intimate with your spouse."). Get her to answer this (be persistent) and then you'll get an answer that should help you get closer to getting back on track.
So much more to say, but assuming you want to try to save the marriage and try to get a spark going again, that is something I would do... among others.
TL2
I REALLY appreciate your input and perspective. In a forum where most of us just try to survive, it is nice to know it is possible to make this better. My wife out right refuses counseling. She said that is admitting the end and in her opinion will lead to divorce, like it did in her last marriage. However, she does not mind talking if the timing is right. We are normally honest, but bringing up sex is always a touchy subject. I do think it can be done and as you suggested timing is important. We are most relaxed when we are having pool time. We normally get in the pool 4 or 5 days a week. I think that is a good time to try it. However, I want to think it through and plan my approach carefully. I do want to keep the marriage together as long as we can have a decent sex life. From: Time To: Time
(ha... I had to start the message off that way)
You're welcome... Happy to share my perspective. I have a few other thoughts I wanted to share after seeing your response / some new info. Yes, pool time sounds like it would be a good time for the two of you to discuss the sex topic (probably with some other things in an "open and honest" session). If for some reason you don't make much progress in that session, at least you will have "floated" the ideas out there in your pool session, although it may take a little time for some things you say to "sink" in (pardon the puns... couldn't resist!).
Seriously though, re: trying to discuss / work things out yourselves vs. using a counselor.... and also re: trying to resolve the SM issue, my biggest additional recommendations are to let your W know that:
- This is a dealbreaker issue for you and therefore you have to ultimately find some compromise / some workable solution within a certain reasonable time (e.g. you know you're probably not going to get things resolved overnight).
- You are willing to try to work things out with just the two of you for a while, within a reasonable time, without going to a counselor. However, if you cannot resolve it yourselves within a reasonable time, then you *need* to go to a counselor (because this has grown to be a *dealbreaker* issue for you... it has gone on too long and you simply cannot live like this anymore). Then agree on what that reasonable time should be for you to work it out yourself. Discuss. My recommendation would be 1-2 months. That seems like plenty of time to me without dragging it out unnecessarily long. It's not unreasonably short (e.g. 2 weeks) but it forces it to be a priority item of discussion for you to get something resolved.
- If you end up needing a counselor, let your W know that it's not the end of your marriage, but it just means that you have an important issue that you need to work out and need some outside help. While your W may have had a bad experience from her prior marriage, reassure her to let her know that you know of other people (e.g. me, and perhaps others) who have had counseling successfully work and have a better marriage because of it. You can let your W know this now, perhaps giving her an incentive to try to work it out yourselves.
- In your best judgment, tell her either now or later when you may start counseling, that again the SM is a serious dealbreaker issue, and therefore you need to set a "reasonable time" deadline for getting it resolved with a counselor. Then discuss, again, what is a reasonable time. My recommendation would perhaps be a *maximum* amount of time that is between 3-6 months, assuming that you're doing weekly counseling. I'd probably pick double the amount of time that you tried to work this out initially yourselves. If you can't work it out with a counselor during this time, then you will separate (not necessarily divorce, but separate). You can't live like this anymore. It's a dealbreaker.
- You should *each* ask around for referrals for counselors. You probably know some people who have gone to counseling at some time. You could ask them, or ask via a church (a church that you attend and perhaps some other churches that you do not attend). The church may not offer counseling but surely they would have some referrals or recommendations. Then research and discuss the people you have referrals for, and agree to start with one.
- In conclusion... You are in the best position to get this resolved if: (1) you are willing to walk away (e.g. at least separate before potentially divorcing)... and your spouse knows this, (2) you both admit that you each are not perfect, and therefore you are both willing to change, and (3) you set deadlines that are well communicated and discussed with your spouse. Because of my prior religious beliefs on marriage & divorce (strong Christian upbringing drilled into my head in the 70s and 80s), it took me forever to internally resolve and conclude that divorce WAS an option... because I simply could not live like that anymore in a SM. I was destroying myself / I was completely broken and unhappy... angry at God and the world. But being willing to walk away is so important. It communicates on many levels to your spouse how serious this is.
One last thought: In my situation, I realized that my W was previously "happy enough" if she had daily good morning / good evening kisses from me and perhaps a few other small shows of affection during the day. So she was getting what she needed, but I was not getting what I needed. One night before going to bed I realized this, and I told her that I would not kiss her again, or touch her again, UNTIL we went to counseling. It brought tears to her eyes. The next morning when I went out the door to go to work, and walked right past her without kissing her, it was breaking her apart and brought more tears to her eyes. Result? Within a few days we were getting our list of counselors put together and then within a few weeks we had our first appointment. Bottom line: I refused my refuser to get my point across! I found something that she needed and withheld that from her. I wasn't trying to be mean, but I had to take a stand and get my point across as to how the SM was hurting me. Oh, and my ring had been off for 9 months prior to this too.
Hope this helps!
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 20, 2018 19:48:12 GMT -5
I am sure this is not the first time this has been asked in here, but I wanted to know. My marriage is not as sexless as many of yours. We did have sex once in the last 5 months. Nothing to brag about, but we have not gone years. I find myself having less interest in initiating sex as I am just worn out over the no sex issue and the amount of rejection over the years. I think now, my wife is starting to miss sex (she has not admitted it). If I initiated more, I think I have a chance to maybe have sex as often as once a month! In all seriousness, maybe I can change the course of our downward spiral. How do you get the motivation to initiate when you really just don't want to get rejected and feel awkward about it. Probably sounds a bit stupid, but some advise would help. BTW, my wife is attractive so at least I don't have to get past an attraction issue. First thought: From my years on these boards, people generally refer to a SM as either being entirely sexless, OR having sex less than once a month / single digits each year. For all practical purposes, your marriage is a SM. And it sounds like you still want to try to save it / want to see if you can get a spark going again. I have recovered from a SM to a better marriage, so I'll offer some thoughts from my perspective, since you may find that helpful. BTW - The first 19 1/2 years of my marriage was a SM, using that definition above. There were a few years where it was completely sexless, but most of the time it was single digits for sex each year.
If your spouse is not initiating, then either (1) SHE has an issue that she has to work through first, or (2) YOU BOTH have an issue you need to work through first. When my SM was at its worst, I didn't want reset sex or pity sex. I wanted HER to want ME. So when you mention, "How do YOU get the motivation to initiate...?"... I think the main issue (if you are like me) is that what you would really want is for HER to initiate. Correct?
My W and I could not have recovered from our SM if : (1) we hadn't had some honest conversations, and (2) we were BOTH willing to make some changes (and in doing so, admit that each of us wasn't perfect). Our counselor helped us to do that.
I think that for best results on this one you actually need to talk about some things first. The # 1 topic YOU want to have an honest conversation about is sex, of course. You can try to do this without a counselor, but you may find that you need one. If you want to try without a counselor, I'd suggest something like this: Tell her that you want to spend more quality time with her, and you miss having open and honest conversations with her (e.g. perhaps like when you were dating). Carve out 1/2 hour or 1 hour to do this. Have her lead off with something SHE wants to talk about, and then you follow it up with something YOU want to talk about. If you are able to carve out an hour (and who knows, it may lead to more than an hour), then maybe have a few easier topics to talk about first, and then after a few questions back and forth / X minutes, transition the topic to sex. Ask when was the best sex she had with you. Say that you miss that time and then ask WHEN during the week (day of the week, time of day) would be the best time for you to have sex. FYI - Our counselor drove that point home to my W when we were in counseling (e.g. "There are 168 hours in the week... there has to be SOME time in there in which you feel the least amount of stress... with the best potential to be physically intimate with your spouse."). Get her to answer this (be persistent) and then you'll get an answer that should help you get closer to getting back on track.
So much more to say, but assuming you want to try to save the marriage and try to get a spark going again, that is something I would do... among others.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 19, 2018 23:16:20 GMT -5
I always thought a black piece of yarn on a wedding ring would work. To signify you live in a dead marriage. Good idea. I have thought about this issue many times as well. Getting back to the original post:
- Black piece of yarn on ring
- Wearing a chain with your ring on it (e.g. essentially signifying you're married but not wearing it where you're supposed to)
- Wearing a chain with the letters SM hanging from it
- Wearing a chain with SM69 hanging from it (SM but ready willing and able!)
Also for what it's worth, I also took off my ring for about 18 months and I was surprised that no one noticed as well, other than my then-refuser spouse after a while. No family or friends said anything. It felt like such a charade to wear it and I didn't want any part of it.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 19, 2018 22:34:58 GMT -5
Ted - Lots of good feedback in this chain as is usually the case. My two cents:
Let go of your idea of perfect. A "perfect" life is just a fantasy. You may be seeing a 1-minute snippet of someone else's life at times but you really have no idea about the rest of it. *Everybody* gets angry / loses their temper at times. Heck, if you want to throw the Christian theme back into the spotlight, even JC flipped over tables in a temple and yelled at people!
Wherever you are at in life, just focus on making things just a little bit better each day. That's all you can do. Focus on being / becoming a better "you" (exercising, other positive habits/routines, etc.). That's even more important than being a better dad IMHO. If you focus just on being a better dad, you could easily ignore yourself / your own needs in the process. However, as you start a new chapter in life, if you first focus on yourself / as you become a better you, it will naturally carry over to being a better dad as well. That's a win/win situation.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 19, 2018 22:10:53 GMT -5
I’m so sad and angry at the STBX and my parents and siblings. They celebrated Easter together yesterday, while my four children and I celebrated alone. The same thing happened on Christmas morning. This is the fourth holiday season we’ve been apart. This Christmas, after being a doormat for so long, I asked my family if they’d stop inviting her to all the close family gatherings. Thus began WWIII. They refused, with prejudice. *** Instead of sympathy, understanding, and care from my own mother, father, sister, and brothers, I got heated arguments about their rights to her and her place in the family. She won’t voluntarily let me have my family either. *** and now they accuse me of whatever she’s told them. She also insists on her rights to them and how awful I am for attempting to interfere. *** She was an orphan and though she has adoptive parents, she gravitated to my family’s closeness. *** Ultimately, I think she’s getting what she wanted out of this whole deal. *** Ted, I'm just reading your story chain / posts here... I quoted / edited just the language above that primarily stood out to me.
Question: Did you ever tell anyone in your family the main reason you walked out 4 years ago (and are divorcing now) is because of the SM? And if so, did you tell them before you left your STBX 4 year ago, or did you tell them a while after you left?
Just curious on how that may have impacted peoples' attitudes in this messed up situation. I really feel for you... I think everyone pretty much counts on their family to support them when going through a divorce. And when that doesn't happen that just sucks. Sorry. We support you here though!
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 19, 2018 21:19:21 GMT -5
Mine was always sexless. We were good Christian kids and didn't have sex before marriage. I didn't realize that masked an actual aversion to sex until our wedding night. And then I was trapped, or so I thought, because as a good Christian kid I couldn't divorce. Good plan, Jesus. My wife and I have always been good Christians too and conservative upbringing played a role in our former SM as well... my wife and her family being more conservative. The preaching against pre-marital sex is something that *is* just crazy and *drives me crazy* as a "modern day" Christian. Completely impractical and ignores ingrained biological needs and physical compatibility. So what's better to the Christian churches these days: (1) having people abstain from sex and accordingly "gamble" that they are physically compatible, or (2) making sure they are physically compatible so that they don't divorce later, breaking up families / kids and parents in the process?
I didn't believe in divorce either until, after many years, I reached such a breaking point I think the conflict was literally about to destroy me inside. That's when I generously set a 1 year time frame for things to turn around otherwise I decided I was going to separate and then likely divorce. And as fate would have it, in the 11th hour a counselor was able to help get through to my wife that my needs were real and she might want to reconsider her thinking before I head out the door.
Ted - Don't worry about what anyone "thinks" about if you were to divorce (e.g. parents, in-laws, friends, pastor, people at your church, etc.). They don't have to live your life. Divorce *is* an option, despite the "preaching" that you may hear. *They* don't have to live the rest of *your* life.
TL2
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