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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 6, 2018 18:53:27 GMT -5
In my opinion, without sex, you are not in a marriage, you are mere roommates. I think this mindset helps a person stay. If you don't expect sex, you don't worry about it so much. The flip side is that you stop thinking of your spouse as a sexual person. This is helpful to read so starkly explained. I think this has been the main thing that has kept me in my deal for the last 9 sexless years. I think I just stopped expecting anything to ever change and just accepted the roomate status. But yes I totally stopped thinking of my spouse as sexual. He is like a friend or even a brother. This is the thing that makes me believe more than anything else that there is no hope. As desperate as I am to have sex if he offered I do not think I could. The quality of *anyone's* life will improve when they no longer "accept" things that they shouldn't. Years ago, back when the EP site was around, I stumbled across this meme and I shared it there. I thought I'd share it again here. Have the courage to take new actions and give yourself a chance to achieve different results.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 6, 2018 17:04:34 GMT -5
If you are set on a course of attempting the "turnaround" then you certainly have the job in front of you Brother time4intimacy . Members who's stories might be helpful for you would be - timeforliving2 - who has written extensively on the subject jamesbonding - who has written a bit on the subject Anonymous Steve - though he hasn't written much. Possibly @shynjdude 's more recent posts might be of value too, but I don't think he is claiming a turnaround at this point. Could be on the way though. Thanks for taking the time to give me these member's names. I don't have time now, heading off to kayak this morning, but will try to read through them later tonight. time4intimacy.... Message me anytime and/or post here. Trying to check here a few times a week.
Best of luck as you try to keep something going. Your W *initiating* with you is key. Don't know if the reason it was mutually hot for you last time on 9/3 was because you put some fear in your W that she might lose you, or if she has done some soul searching about where things had been going. Open communication is also key with your long term marriage success... so don't be afraid to ask her about it in an open ended and perhaps indirect way... Try to find out her reasons for spicing it up.
Finally, it doesn't look good if your W refuses counseling. To me, that implies / means that she doesn't feel like she needs to change much, if at all, and that she's generally fine just the way things are. Perhaps she doesn't want to spend the money on it, but most likely she feels like she doesn't really have to change. Or she may feel like things are "too complicated" to get into with a counselor. But that's *precisely* the reason you want to involve a counselor... to help cut through all of the peripheral issues to get to the core issues that you both need to work on.
Joint counseling, in person, is what helped *start* our marriage turn around in about 6-8 weeks. The counselor met with me *separately* 2 times at the beginning, then my wife separately 2 times at the beginning, then we began joint counseling. Without it, I would have separated for sure, then most likely divorced. My W and I are both relatively smart people, so for years we thought we could work through things ourselves (books, talking, etc.) without spending the $ on a counselor. We were wrong. Money on a good counselor is an investment and money well spent. If the counselor your first choose isn't working after X weeks (maybe 8-12 weeks) , don't be afraid to try a different counselor.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 6, 2018 16:46:37 GMT -5
I think there has to be a balance between kids and no kids. You definitely need some time without the kids to reconnect one on one. Maybe plan one or two activities a month with no kids. I am not sure if you can have your wife commit to that, but if you can, it would be a great start. Regarding guys not wanting kids. I don't think it is most guys either. The reasons vary considerably and I think guys thinking it will take away wife time is not the #1 reason.
There needs to be balance between spouse / couple time and time with kids. As our counselor once said to my W when we were trying to solve the SM: "There are 168 hours in the week... There has to be *some* time you can make in there for sex and intimacy."
I do agree that my W was one of those whose focus went to 100% for the kids once we had them. Easy to understand in months 1, 2, and 3.... but when it also becomes Year 1, 2, 3... 10, 11, 12... It's a big problem.
"The marriage" is its own deal... Both people have to put something into it for this thing to work. When it's one sided it doesn't work. When one partner isn't getting his/her key needs met, it doesn't work.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 8, 2018 19:02:58 GMT -5
Hoping - What have you said or done to get your H to try oral sex? In my turnaround we still don't have oral going on. I've offered several times to my W and she doesn't want to go there. She has this thought or image in her head that once you go to oral and then if you kiss regularly again everything is going to be nasty / just dirty or gross. I've tried telling her that it's practically unheard of for a woman to deny receiving oral sex... only good things can happen (I won't mention or do the cheese grater technique!). Of course I'm also hoping the oral eventually goes both ways. I'm willing to go first though... not a problem. Any specific things that I should say? This is crazy but my W has very few close friends and none that she talks to about sex I'm sure.
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I'm a guy in a heterosexual marriage. I know it's hard to tell at times with user names. You have to realize there is nothing you can say or do that will make your partner want to give oral, it's something they have to decide on thier own. Marriage counseling helped big time with getting the W to realize that sex is not just about procreation and that it's about intimacy. Right now, the W is comfortable giving oral and at times enjoys it and at times it turns her on. *gasp* I still remember the therapist facial expression when the topic of oral came up. I think the therapist thought I wasn't getting bjs because I wasn't giving it back, and when I told her I love giving it and would give it even if I want receiving any, she instinctively shot my wife the, "girl your nuts" look before she caught herself and returned to the neutral party therapist look. Hoping - Sorry for the confusion. I was looking back on the chain of posts and I got confused because you chimed in to something JMX and workingonit were chatting about. Your profile also didn't say M or F. Thanks for clarifying. Maybe if I "push a little harder" on this topic we could get the oral going at some point. Like you, I am more than willing to lead the way. If that doesn't work maybe a hint of going back to our prior counselor could also help. Or maybe going to a new therapist... specifically a sex therapist? We're not getting any younger.
Thanks for the funny therapist story. Maybe we should see a female therapist / counselor for this issue... it makes sense now that I think about it!
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 8, 2018 12:27:34 GMT -5
🙋‍♀️. We started off great - and it was about 3-4 years total - 2 with first baby. I will say - red flag - he was not into giving me oral (which I would not stand for again) nor was he very adventurous - which was kind of disconcerting considering a previous relationship that was full of that. Ultimately, I figured that would change, which was dumb - it went the other direction. I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening. Hoping - What have you said or done to get your H to try oral sex? In my turnaround we still don't have oral going on. I've offered several times to my W and she doesn't want to go there. She has this thought or image in her head that once you go to oral and then if you kiss regularly again everything is going to be nasty / just dirty or gross. I've tried telling her that it's practically unheard of for a woman to deny receiving oral sex... only good things can happen (I won't mention or do the cheese grater technique!). Of course I'm also hoping the oral eventually goes both ways. I'm willing to go first though... not a problem. Any specific things that I should say? This is crazy but my W has very few close friends and none that she talks to about sex I'm sure.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 8, 2018 12:10:54 GMT -5
Well, I think part of the value in trying counseling is that you can say to others later that "you tried". That being said... in your situation it sounds very extreme so I think your approach was a valid and reasonable one. On the flip side, if you wanted to be able to tell others later that "you tried", you could still go to counseling but then also have really high standards / dealbreakers / expectations (but still within the bounds of reasonableness)... criteria that you're pretty damn sure she will not be able to meet (especially with such a long history of bait and switch). If you tried counseling for a month, for example, and laid out all of your dealbreakers, etc., then the burden shifts over to her / the refuser / crazy person to try to make a reasonable effort on meeting your reasonable needs. If she can't do things that are reasonably expected in a marriage then she's even more so perceived as the "guilty" party and you look even better in the divorce (to family and friends).
Just my thoughts on another way to play it.
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When I was in my SM, I often did worry about what others thought. It is a huge factor as to why I never outsourced. I didn't want to look like the "bad guy" to other people. The funny part is when we told the kids, my ex and I sent out texts to family and friends letting everyone know. We called those of them we were closest to. All expressed sympathy. None assigned "blame". And then they all went back to watching American Idol or whatever they had been doing before we gave them the news. Five minutes of thought at max is what our average family member or friend really put into it. If you don't believe me, think about a friend or family member who is divorced and how much you've thought about it (non drama divorces that is). So the "I tried everything" benchmark mainly exists within our own heads. That isn't to say it's meaningless. Being able to walk out with your "head held high" may be quite important. That is one reason that I never outsourced. So that if I ever left I wouldn't be a "bad guy". But make no mistake, my SM was turning me into a hard drinking, porn addicted, workaholic piece of shit. I was angry all the time, and it was getting increasingly harder to keep the lid on the pressure cooker. I was being transformed into an ACTUAL bad guy. No amount of couples counseling was going to fix that. And in the end almost nobody cares that I didn't give couples counseling a whirl. However, I do think individual therapy can be huge for people. Great points. Even if others would not end up thinking about it for that long (e.g. 5 minutes), it still would have been important to me (e.g. that we tried counseling) if the divorce situation played out.
My SM changed me for the worse as well... How can it not?! The longer it goes on, the longer I think it takes to try to get your life back on track even after a turnaround or starting a new chapter. I agree... Individual counseling can be great for people. Just wish there wasn't such a stigma with it because people rarely talk about it. If you break a bone, it's obvious and people always talk about it. If you have a serious or terminal illness, people *sometimes* talk about it (more so these days than in the past). If you have a need to talk to a psychologist / psychiatrist or counselor, people *rarely* talk about, and there is such a stigma. Bottom line: We should all be given credit for *trying* to get healthy and *happy* again. Aren't we all at our best when we are genuinely happy and healthy?
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 7, 2018 18:23:16 GMT -5
*** Yes, I believe that counseling is *always* worth trying, even when you don't think it may help. I was so, so wrong for not trying it earlier / not believing earlier that it could help us / believing earlier that it would be a waste of money.
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I'm disagree. I truly think it depends on the situation. In my case, mine was a bait and switch from day one. Manufactured "medical condition". Manufactured story of sexual abuse. Miraculous healing for baby making then mystery undiagnosed illness comes back. Last 13 years the words "I love you" didn't come out of her mouth without my prompting. Once the kids arrived my only purpose was as an ATM machine. Meanwhile I descended into full blown alcoholism to cope. It wasn't pretty. Couples counseling would have merely been another lap around gaslightville. When I announced divorce everyone recommended couples counseling. I refused. And in my case it was the right decision. Turning over every stone to save a marriage may be a good thing but not when you know those rocks will be used to continue to club you from behind. Well, I think part of the value in trying counseling is that you can say to others later that "you tried". That being said... in your situation it sounds very extreme so I think your approach was a valid and reasonable one. On the flip side, if you wanted to be able to tell others later that "you tried", you could still go to counseling but then also have really high standards / dealbreakers / expectations (but still within the bounds of reasonableness)... criteria that you're pretty damn sure she will not be able to meet (especially with such a long history of bait and switch). If you tried counseling for a month, for example, and laid out all of your dealbreakers, etc., then the burden shifts over to her / the refuser / crazy person to try to make a reasonable effort on meeting your reasonable needs. If she can't do things that are reasonably expected in a marriage then she's even more so perceived as the "guilty" party and you look even better in the divorce (to family and friends).
Just my thoughts on another way to play it.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 7, 2018 11:27:42 GMT -5
Tooyoung - Are you giving your W kisses and hugs? Holding hands? Backrubs / footrubs, etc.? Any kind of physical connection or affirmation?
If those types of things are "enough" for your W to be happy / emotionally connected with you, then I recommend stopping it.... until you go to couples counseling and get the SM resolved. That's what I did and it worked. I told my W at the time: "I will no longer kiss you, or hug you, until we go to counseling and get our issues resolved". It worked. I didn't want to do anything for her that made her feel "comfortable" in the relationship. I needed to rock the boat a bit so that she felt uncomfortable too. And I did it in a way where I didn't seem like a jerk... I tied my refusal of kisses and hugs into the fact that we were to go to counseling to fix things.
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So you found couples counseling to be valuable? How? What things were you trying to fix? If you subscribe to the overall iliasm approach then SM wasn't your problem but everything else was so where did you start?
I'm currently not trying to fix anything. My wife wanted a sexless marriage and she got it. Once menopause and pain were involved she could have either chosen to do something (see her doctor) to try and continue to have sex or do nothing. She chose nothing. I redecorated one of our other bedrooms and moved out politely (it was during a time when I was doing a certain amount of work in Europe so I was up working at 2AM when their workday began) and stayed moved out. My marriage isn't awful, it's just sexless. I'm not willing to trade what I have which is 90% OK to reach for a 10% myth at 51 years old. Someone made the "leaving has to stand on its own" point recently and I agree with that. Leaving doesn't stand on its own so I'll stay. Can I provide cautionary information to others? Sure but that's about it.
After a nearly 20-year SM, I did just what I said above and essentially put counseling on the front burner. We had to deal with it. So for us counseling came before my W going through menopause (not there yet but close I'm sure). Prior to counseling my W and I were in an no-win / endless loop battle... kind of a which comes first, the chicken or the egg argument:
W: I don't want to have sex with you because I don't feel emotionally connected *enough* to you. ME: I am not emotionally connected with you because we never have sex!
Counseling helped us to get through that.
Communication is key to resolving anything. If you don't communicate well / each of you don't talk about your needs in a respectful way, then it's doubtful anything will change / you're leaving it all to chance.
You don't think a 10% myth (e.g. an improvement) to your marriage is possible, so you don't want to try couples counseling? Believe me, I understand where you are coming from, because I resisted going to couples counseling for many years. I thought that was only for "other people". My W and I are pretty smarty people, after all. We can go the cheaper route, read & discuss couples' books, and figure this out on our own without paying thousands of dollars to a counselor with no guarantee of fixing anything. Besides, my W will never change... she is so stubborn and strongwilled, especially over this issue. If she hasn't changed in 19 years, what could a counselor possibly do to change her mind?
That was my old thinking. My new / current thinking: I would give my entire life savings to go back in time to year 1 of our marriage and go to couples' counseling THEN so that we could have resolved this SM issue *as soon as possible*. Money can't buy happiness. The SM slowly corroded our marriage to the point where I was devoid of happiness and I was extremely depressed. If your marriage is not improving / getting better, then believe me, it's getting worse (even if slightly and slowly). They say that soldiers that go to war are forever changed people. I am also forever changed because of my prolonged SM experience. I never served in the military but I fought a 19 year battle over a basic, normal need in a marriage for regular physical intimacy and sex. My W never understood how important it was to me (and us as a couple) until an outside / independent expert (counselor) told her that it was so. *Then* she listened. Just like friends and family and children / teens won't listen to you, but when someone else with perceived expertise says the same thing, they now believe and listen!
Yes, I believe that counseling is *always* worth trying, even when you don't think it may help. I was so, so wrong for not trying it earlier / not believing earlier that it could help us / believing earlier that it would be a waste of money.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 6, 2018 12:27:12 GMT -5
*** Maintaining intimacy of some sort in the complete or relative absence of a marriage bed isn't easy. In my own case, my wife is quite avoidant so her needs for any kind of intimacy are small. Mine aren't. Once again, her needs for intimacy of any kind are being met. Mine aren't. *** Tooyoung - Are you giving your W kisses and hugs? Holding hands? Backrubs / footrubs, etc.? Any kind of physical connection or affirmation?
If those types of things are "enough" for your W to be happy / emotionally connected with you, then I recommend stopping it.... until you go to couples counseling and get the SM resolved. That's what I did and it worked. I told my W at the time: "I will no longer kiss you, or hug you, until we go to counseling and get our issues resolved". It worked. I didn't want to do anything for her that made her feel "comfortable" in the relationship. I needed to rock the boat a bit so that she felt uncomfortable too. And I did it in a way where I didn't seem like a jerk... I tied my refusal of kisses and hugs into the fact that we were to go to counseling to fix things.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 6, 2018 12:18:35 GMT -5
timeforliving2 , thank you so much for weighing in on my situation and for all the valuable insight. I appreciate the concrete references you forwarded. I only have the Love Languages book out of everything you recommended, so I’ll look into everything else. You also asked some very direct questions that I don’t have clear answers for, but it will be a good exercise for me to try to answer them. It’s all so complicated and overwhelming. There are the very real, fair warnings from northstarmom and @tooyoungtobeold and others here, paired with your story of hope. I have some more soul searching to do. It's crazy you bring up the analogy of cancer. My therapist said the exact same thing in my individual session yesterday. We haven't been able to get in for a couples session in awhile, and I was defending my husband because he's been so busy with work, which is at least partly true because he's actually out of town a lot. But she said the same thing, if he had cancer he would find the time for treatment. And that he needs to understand the urgency of the situation, which is my job to express. So that makes me feel better about her as our therapist based on your warnings. I think I've grown with her personally, but there's only so much she can do when we don't talk. Also, I'm turning 40 this spring, and it would be great to not enter a new decade of life under these conditions...there's a pretty clear deadline for me. You're welcome. You mention turning age 40 this spring.... Sometimes these calendar items are what we need to push forward and resolve to do something different. I can relate, and FWIW I was a bit older when I held firm and insisted upon changing / stopping our SM. I was approaching my 20 yr anniversary still in a SM I knew I could not celebrate a "fake" anniversary like that with family if there was no intimacy / no love felt anymore. I didn't know what a SM was / wasn't aware of the widespread problem around our 5 year, 10 year, or 15 year anniversary... but I certainly wish I had known sooner so I could have fixed it sooner.
Best of luck with your soul searching. Share your specific thoughts / impetus for change (e.g. turning 40) with your therapist / counselor and your H. When I was at my breaking point and felt our marriage was about to end / I knew this was a dealbreaker, I held nothing back in terms or my thoughts. I was not yelling or arguing, etc.... but I put everything on the table about what I was feeling and why. I tied this in to our upcoming anniversary, and in your case, to tie it into turning age 40, is perfect. Be bold and tell everyone that you're going to start a new chapter, one way or another. :-)
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 2, 2018 9:39:53 GMT -5
“if you are in a marriage, you simply cannot refuse physical intimacy (sex and other) and realistically expect it will last. “ Not true. It can last. Most marriages of those who end up here don’t end. That’’s because neither spouse has the guts to end it. Both some of rsther live as companions, acquaintances, people who even loathe each other than to risk ending it and making themselves available for the committed, loving, respectful., relationship that you are hoping for now. Many will go to their graves longing for that after spending their final years caring for a disabled or ill spouse or having a spouse they are averse to taking care of them as they age or get disabled. I saw my mom, who was in a sm, have to spend years taking care of my I dad who was incontinent, mute l, and partly paralyzed after strokes. When he died, she was bitter and in her eArly seventies and spent the next decade praying to die in her sleep. Not wanting to end up like that helped me leave my sm. Some variation of that will be your fate if the lack of intimacy (and no conflicd reflects a lack of intimacy) continues. Your marriage is empty. The advice is wise to react with the urgency of addressing cancer. It may be that your h avoids joining you in the fight: he may refuse to speak up or simply placate or utter platitudes.. That will be your sign that there is no hope and the only hope for the romantic life you want il would be to release yourself from a marriage of police td acquaintance. I think I originally posted something like that last night but later revised it to say that either it won't last or you'll have a lifetime of resentment in the marriage. We're on the same page. Either it won't last or there's a hell of a lot of resentment.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 2, 2018 0:42:21 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! ****** I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. shamwow - *** I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. *** a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? Thank you all so much. Truly. seekinganswers - I'm just catching up on your thread and posted my first response a little while ago. I just quoted / highlighted 3 comments above that you made that resonated with me. My responses to your 3 comments are as follows:
1. Yes, you both have to start talking more openly with each other about any major issue you have with your marriage... sex and anything else. Without this open communication and mutual desire to resolve the issues, your marriage will ultimately fail or you will live a *lifetime* of resentment, if those issues are big enough for either one of you.
2. My marriage has had a turnaround, but as I have openly said recently, our sex is not mind blowing either. But it is good enough to keep us in "reasonable sex" land.
3. FWIW - If you understand / have read the Five Love Languages book, my primary love language is physical touch, and my wife's is "quality time" (other than sex!). Similar to what you have mentioned above about not letting your H touch you... my wife used to do the same... for nearly 20 years. Always pushing my hands away from all parts of her body unless I was giving her a normal hug. I've got to honestly say that nearly killed me... every time she pushed my hands away I felt so rejected. She was rejecting my primary love language. To a large extent it is simply how I was wired and I cannot change it. If you are in a marriage, you simply cannot refuse physical intimacy (sex and other) and realistically expect your marriage will last. There are times where you each need to submit and acquiesce, a la Fifty Shades or otherwise. I highly recommend that you both read the Five Love Languages book too if you haven't already.
(BTW - If you assume that I tried to simply touch my W in some more intimate way just once a day on average... over a 10-year period that's 3,650 rejections, and over a 20 year period that's 7,300 rejections. I think being handsy once a day for a few seconds in an effort to show love for a spouse is totally reasonable. However, I probably never was rejected 7,300 times... because with each rejection a little piece of of you dies inside, depression sets in, and you begin to lose more and more hope and don't want to try to make your marriage work anymore. Being rejected even 100 times or 1,000 times is simply too much to bear and one just gives up after they reach their own breaking point.)
Finally, if you are a "recovering refuser", you need to understand this point / perspective: If you are regularly refusing sex to your spouse, you are actually "the cheater". You are cheating the opportunity for intimacy out of your marriage relationship (your spouse has no other *ethical* alternative to satisfying a biological *need*). I know that may be hard for you to hear and accept, but it is true. I only say it "straight up" because you need to understand how serious this is. I didn't fully understand it either until I was a completely broken person and had read a lot on the predecessor website to this one. I think whatever the other spouse does in response to a cheater is their choice. Even though my marriage turned around 4 1/2 years ago, I will still never be the same person again. My thoughts and beliefs on marriage have forever changed. And I almost pursued an affair opportunity prior to our turnaround. If I had done so, I would have been completely justified because my refuser had "cheated" first. No one enters marriage with an expectation or desire for a sexless marriage.
I truly wish you the best. I get the sense that you do want to make an effort to change certain things. Hopefully your H is willing to change some things too.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 1, 2018 23:55:51 GMT -5
Re - examples of members who have "come back from this". Look up timeforliving2 . Thats a credible story from a respected member who's deal has done a 180. ***** seekinganswers - As baza mentioned, please do look through my posts from the last 2 weeks especially... You will get a sense of my turnaround. It can happen. I can relate to your story... my W and I were in a nearly 20 year SM and we turned it around (rare but true). I honestly started going to counseling as a "formality"... I was *sure* we were going to separate but I wanted to at least be able to tell people "I tried" before actually separating. I felt emotionally distant from my W especially during that 2nd decade of our marriage... there was a point where we only had sex once in 4 years. And she felt emotionally distant from me as well, which she said was the main reason she didn't feel like having sex with me. I understand where you are coming from.
The key question you have to ask yourself is: Do you want to give this one last shot, perhaps taking a somewhat different approach? I know you are currently in counseling (both joint and individual), but I get the sense that there are no time limits on that and no sense of urgency for getting this resolved. Being realistic for a minute: Does your counselor have a vested financial interest in your counseling continuing for a long time? Sure, they all do. I am not saying that your counselor is not helping, but perhaps he or she is not the best one for the two of you for whatever reason. Or he/she doesn't bring a sense of urgency to your sessions as well. You've been in counseling for more than a year already with apparently no significant improvement. Think about potentially changing counselors as you go forward.
Another question to think about: If you had cancer, would you do anything different in the way you live your life? Of course you would. There would be a sense of urgency to getting it fixed / cured, and you'd seek the best treatment, seek the best medical professionals, learn something more about it every day, and keep trying despite bad days you'd inevitably have. Segue: You and your H currently have *marriage cancer* (a sexless marriage, lacking intimacy). You need to treat it with as much urgency, and give it one last shot. And put a time limit on it.
Before going to your next counseling session, have the courage to watch this video (link below) by Amanda Palmer... and watch it again with your H. You mentioned that the two of you don't seem to communicate well about how you're feeling and also about sex. This video will probably resonate well with you, as it did with me. Watching this video together just after we started counseling helped my W and I realize the urgency, realize we had an emotionally dead marriage, and definitely helped with our turnaround. This video... plus many more things.
Also, if you give this one last shot, I highly recommend reading this set of books by Shaunti and Jeff Feldhahn: (1) For Women Only, and (2) For Men Only. Read and discuss them together with your H outside of counseling (e.g. You read Chapter 1 from the For Women book, and your H read Chapter 1 from the For Men book, then discuss together, etc.). There is at least one chapter in each of the books that talks about sex, and I swear I was blown away when I read the chapter about sex from a man's perspective... someone had finally put my same kind of thoughts *in print*. (Each of those chapters in the books so *accurately* describe when men and women typically think and feel about sex). The books talk about many other aspects of the marriage relationship too.
Not all marriages can ultimately be saved. But if you can get the fun and emotional intimacy back the way it was early in your relationship before you had your son, and you could get the sex back, would you stay? The reality is that if your marriage is going to be saved... you both will have to make some changes to what you are currently doing. You have a downward spiral going on. You are not giving H what he needs, and H is not giving you what you need. It is possible to create an upward spiral in your marriage again: You giving H what he needs, and H giving you what you need. It takes a better understanding of your situation and each other, a bit of humility realizing that neither of you is perfect, a willingness to try something different, and often the help of an outside counselor.
Re: your current outside counselor, you can create a sense of urgency with the counselor in a few different ways. One way would be to be straightforward with the counselor and tell him/her that you have decided that you are going to give this one last shot, and have set a limit of a period of time (e.g. 6 months?, 9 months? 1 year?) where you are going to try to resolve the issues / create a better marriage, otherwise you are going to separate. If you separate, neither of you will continue to see the counselor again because the effort will have failed. Additionally, if you do not see significant improvement in your marriage in a certain period of time (e.g. the next 2 months?) you will be looking for a new counselor who can help you better. You have decided you have no more time to waste. (NOTE: Now the counselor has an urgency to try to help you... successfully. You are establishing more control over the situation and are holding them to a higher standard of what you expect to happen).
Hope this helps!
TL2
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Agenda?
Jul 27, 2018 14:13:31 GMT -5
Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 27, 2018 14:13:31 GMT -5
Not sure if anyone else has experienced this. My wife now accuses or, actually thinks I have an agenda towards sex in almost any situation. She accuses me of only giving her a hug because I want to get laid. Kind words about the way she looks or something she’s done, because I want sex. Cuddle and watch a movie together...sex. I can’t deny that I want sex, it has been a long while. But that’s not the reason for most of my actions towards her. Its gotten to the point I just want to leave her alone and not be around her. Not having a decent sex life is bad, feeling like shit about advocating for your needs is worse, but feeling like my my actions are always questioned this way is intolerable. You and your wife may want to read / discuss the Five Love Languages book. It sounds like your "love language" may be "physical touch" (regardless of whether it's a hug, sex, or anything in between). Your wife's love language could be something else. That was the case with me and my W. Reading discussing that book, and doing some other things, helped turn my deal around.
I also read your post about TMI... Don't know if your feelings on that are a byproduct of being rejected in your marriage so long, or if it's for other reasons. Regardless, the threshold issue is do you want to save or improve your marriage for now / the foreseeable future, or do you want to get out? If you want to stay in your marriage for now, then at a minimum... it might as well be better than what it is, right? The Five Love Languages book can help. Your W may be "accusing" you of wanting sex because *her* primary love language needs are *not* being met (and she may not be fully aware of what that is / may not be actively thinking about it). It makes a lot of sense when you read it. All couples should read this book IMHO before getting married.
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 27, 2018 11:30:36 GMT -5
baza - In addition to some people that you mentioned in the other recent story chain mentioning "stats", there was a woman on the old EP site that I believe had a real genuine turnaround: Fireflyz26. I believe she was in her late 30s to mid 40s. She was not active on the EP site for the last 6+ months or so before it closed down and I never got any contact info for her before it closed down. But I remember her writing about her and her H both being Christian and both of them really realizing that they both needed to change in some areas, and in addition H finally opened up to her that he was sexually abused as a child. They worked through their issues with the help of a counselor and sex therapist and sex was restored in their marriage. She posted success stories for quite a while that mentioned the recovery wasn't just about sex... all areas of their relationship were improving. It goes back to what you said a day or two ago... Sex usually isn't the main issue, often lack of it is a symptom of a bigger issue. TL2
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