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Post by emmablueeyes on Jun 27, 2016 12:30:11 GMT -5
I have been reading everyone's stories and posts now for days and thought I should go ahead and say hi....I think I belong here...boy does this sound familiar! Quick intro: Third marriage (2nd was a mulligan and doesn't really count). We've been married 5 years and he is 56 and I am 50. I'm financially independent and have one teen still at home. He is a kind step parent and overall a pretty good guy.I "settled" into this marriage after a severe heart break and should have seen the warning signs of the sexual miss match. He is a prude and out of the Five Love Languages I am clearly high physical intimacy. Once when we were dating I suggested watching a porn movie together and it triggered all sorts of that's not appropriate, are you a slut?, I don't understand why you would need that? etc.... reactions from him. But I ignored the warnings. Fast forward to a short time into the marriage when our mostly dull but acceptably pleasant sex life became a " no, not tonight" "I have too much stress." and now 5 years in with a twice a year frequency (for a full 3 minutes in the same position with no variation and an immediate trip to wash up afterwards). Physically he works fine, takes testosterone for body building strength, and overall is exceptionally fit. He's happy enough and comfortable with small bits of affection and I am not even really angry at him because I finally understand this is just who he is. Even turning 50 and the fear of losing my attractiveness is only occasionally messing with my head. I do lots of yoga, swim, still maintain a pretty cute figure, and I think I am still attractive (stated almost completely confidently even with the on-going slaughtering of self esteem stemming from having a non interested spouse).
The last time we really talked about the lack of sex was almost 2 years ago. He explained he's not happy with life, where he lives, his boring job, and once we are able to move to Montana he thinks he will feel more into sex. I warned him my concerns were his lack of interests vs. my strong needs could drive me to seek elsewhere. A few months later an ex contacted me and opened that door. My justification for outsourcing is simple starvation. I was literally starving for sexual intimacy and he took the chance that no one else would step up to feed me. And it was wonderful!!! It truly is like coming back to life after walking around like a zombie. There was sexting, crazy building of needs, extended foreplay, and the use of positions feared abandoned. The good stuff. The only problem now is that I have been re-awoken and I do not wish to fall back asleep into the complacency of my current sexless marriage. My "outsourcer" is married. We met 10 years ago when he was separated from his wife and he ended up returning to the marriage for all the same reasons we all know. Kids were young, etc... We connected during one other time when I was single for awhile and then now for the last year and a half. But, we barely have time to see each other and have only managed every couple of months so the great irony in all of this is I took a lover to solve the sexless issue of my marriage and I am getting almost the same amount of frequency (albeit sooooo much better) of sex as I am in the marriage!
Anyway, current frustrations have driven me to finding this forum and it's time for decisions and changes but damn it is hard to accept.
If physical intimacy is my love language I understand I cannot separate feelings from sex so why after 10 years of a truly spectacular connection with my lover why is he still too uncertain to leave his unhappy marriage?
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Post by JMX on Jun 27, 2016 13:15:35 GMT -5
First! A bit of what we all say to new members:
Welcome to the club that no one wants to hold membership! We know what you are going through and are glad you stopped in and shared your story.
As for the SM - you will find a wealth of information here for you! The main point I wanted to comment - the married lover. It's tough, I am sure and while I do not have particular experience (well, physical) I can tell you it is hard to separate emotions, (almost impossible). Your frustration will continue and you may find some others that back me up here in this bit of wisdom: it is very rare for a man to leave a SM, even if he has a good side thing going. You may consider because he gets the side thing too, that he will more than likely never leave his situation. It's more bearable with some intimacy on the side.
It is not you. It is him, and statistically true for this group. Try not to take it personally.
I wish you luck!
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Post by LITW on Jun 27, 2016 13:58:15 GMT -5
Welcome to the club Emma! Even though this is the club that none of us ever wanted to be in.
From someone else whose love language is physical touch also, I know how hard it is to separate physical affection from love, but for an equally large number of people, those are two completely different things.
As far as your lover goes, I can't know exactly where he is coming from, but for some people to leave a marriage requires an admission of personal failure. I know that for me, I have a huge set of doubts and fears around leaving. As much as it seems my wife has no interest in meeting my needs, I feel compelled to meet hers, and would feel as if I let her down if I left. This is a second marriage for me, and to end it would mean that I have personally falied at two different relationships that "should have" lasted a lifetime.
Anyway, welcome, and please make yourself at home!
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 27, 2016 15:19:32 GMT -5
Welcome Emma.
I as well outsourced but I did eventually leave my SM.
My AP is a married man so we have that in common too. I've known him for a couple of years.
To answer your question of how he can do that, and this is just speculation:
Married men still love their wives. They can separate sex from the feeling of love. There are other emotions and feelings they tap into though: excitement, passion, lust. Men are usually better at compartmentalizing then women are.
Enjoy the times you get to see your lover but try to keep your feelings in check, most likely he's not your end game. Focus on yourself and what you really want for your life. Oh and btw, I remember last Fall when I was going through the divorce and the holidays it was tough to see each other and we got into a drought, I felt like I was in a Sexless Affair. Lol
Again focus on yourself and find your happiness.
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Post by emmablueeyes on Jun 27, 2016 15:35:41 GMT -5
Two clubs!!! Ughhh. As much as I appreciate the information and support I have seen on here, I really can't believe this is my current reality. The married lover recently turned down a chance for us to get a night alone due to his internal conflict on cheating and it felt like rejection which is exactly the feeling I was running away from! I know the reality of married men not leaving wives no matter how unhappy. I guess I hoped the strength and endurance of our connection might prove to be the exception. Now I am imagining losing him as well.
LITW : I understand! This is my 3rd marriage so imagine the personal admission of failure necessary to leave?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 16:15:27 GMT -5
emmablueeyes, you're not losing him. You just have to give him some time to get used to being an adulterer. It's a big deal. But, I'm pretty sure he'll get accustomed to it. Most adulterers do eventually.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 27, 2016 16:25:40 GMT -5
[TL2's - HIGHLIGHTS]I have been reading everyone's stories and posts now for days and thought I should go ahead and say hi.... **** Quick intro: Third marriage (2nd was a mulligan and doesn't really count). We've been married 5 years and he is 56 and I am 50. *** now 5 years in with a twice a year frequency *** Physically he works fine, takes testosterone for body building strength, and overall is exceptionally fit. He's happy enough and comfortable with small bits of affection and I am not even really angry at him because I finally understand this is just who he is. *** The last time we really talked about the lack of sex was almost 2 years ago. He explained he's not happy with life, where he lives, his boring job.. *** I warned him my concerns were his lack of interests vs. my strong needs could drive me to seek elsewhere. A few months later an ex contacted me and opened that door. *** My "outsourcer" is married. We met 10 years ago when he was separated from his wife and he ended up returning to the marriage for all the same reasons we all know. Kids were young, etc... We connected during one other time when I was single for awhile and then now for the last year and a half. But, we barely have time to see each other and have only managed every couple of months. *** If physical intimacy is my love language I understand I cannot separate feelings from sex so why after 10 years of a truly spectacular connection with my lover why is he still too uncertain to leave his unhappy marriage? Emma, There are millions of us in this club who have suffered greatly. Your original post is great / has good detail but I pared it down (quoted above) to focus on some points as I see them. Some thoughts in no particular order (feel free to respond to some or all - in whatever detail floats your boat): - Is this a 2nd or 3rd marriage for your H?
- Is he very religious and/or does he have different religious views than you?
- Sounds like he's depressed for several reasons. Any idea on what the 1 or 2 biggest things you or he could do *this month* to change that? Has he ever seen a counselor?
- Has he ever seen a *career* counselor? A lot of men define themselves with their careers. What kind of an industry is he in? Is the Montana move a retirement dream, or something that could be supported with his job / line of work? Would your job allow for such a move?
- Do you make more money than he does?
- Is he otherwise "happy" with your marriage? Any signs that, perhaps for different reasons, he might "regret" having gotten married again?
- Are there other family situations creating stress (parents, siblings, in-laws of any kinds from any marriages, kids' issues, etc.)
- Do you have any other family members living in the home (other than your 1 teen)?
- The last time you talked about sex was 2 years ago. From personal experience, the only way I made progress in my SM was through continued, difficult conversations, with the help of a counselor. I never realistically thought when we started with a counselor that it would make a difference, but it did, and without it I'm sure we'd be in the same terrible place today.
- What do you like most about your H? If the SM were fixed somehow, would you still want to stay with him for the rest of your life, knowing what you know now?
- On the opposite end of the spectrum, what do you dislike the most about your relationship with your H (other than the sex)? No relationship is perfect. Is the combination of this thing, plus the lack of sex, if they both remain unfixed for another year, enough to divorce?
- What do you think H likes most about you? What do you think H gets the most out of his relationship with you?
- On the opposite end of the spectrum, what do you think H dislikes the most about you or your relationship?
Why won't your lover leave his current W? Again, some thoughts in no particular order:
- Life is complicated. I know this all too well because my current situation is still very complicated. Your lover may see your quarterly flings as being the least complicated solution for now that still maintains his sanity and fulfills his intimacy needs.
- It might be possible that your lover has more than 2 women in his life. (I have no idea... just thinking outside the box for possible reasons). If so, might he be trying to figure out *who* he wants to leave his W for... once all of his kids are grown? You mentioned that 10 years ago you reconnected with him, then you weren't involved with him (but perhaps he was involved with a 3rd woman during this time?), and now you reconnected a few years ago? This theory would fit that situation.
- He might simply be waiting for the the kids to be old enough (e.g. graduate HS) where it won't be as difficult for them.
- Could be many other reasons. Again, life is complicated.
Hope these thoughts help. Sorry you're part of the club, but welcome nonetheless. And in the immortal words of Jimmy Buffet... Why don't we (all) get drunk and screw?
TL2
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Post by emmablueeyes on Jun 27, 2016 17:15:06 GMT -5
- Is this a 2nd or 3rd marriage for your H? 3rd marriage for both.
- Is he very religious and/or does he have different religious views than you? Neither of us are religious.
- Sounds like he's depressed for several reasons. Any idea on what the 1 or 2 biggest things you or he could do *this month* to change that? Has he ever seen a counselor? d current job as a software engineering which he finds boring and meaningless. He likes the money he makes though so he won't leave current career until he discovers He is definitely depressed and would admit to this. He has not seen a counselor and is not interested. He knows the issue is living away from the mountains in Montana. I've encouraged him to live in Montana on his own (could stay married really) but now he can't find the perfect job there. Depression leads to excuses. I can leave current state and job as soon as youngest leaves for college. He makes slightly more than I do.
- Has he ever seen a *career* counselor? A lot of men define themselves with their careers. What kind of an industry is he in? Is the Montana move a retirement dream, or something that could be supported with his job / line of work? Would your job allow for such a move?
- Do you make more money than he does?
- Is he otherwise "happy" with your marriage? Any signs that, perhaps for different reasons, he might "regret" having gotten married again? He regrets being stuck in this state I believe and I have considered lack of sex as a passive aggressive punishment. However, I really just think he isn't very sexual at all.
- Are there other family situations creating stress (parents, siblings, in-laws of any kinds from any marriages, kids' issues, etc.) Nothing really more than day to day busy lives. I'm in education so have a little time off right now to deal with personal issues.
- Do you have any other family members living in the home (other than your 1 teen)? None
- The last time you talked about sex was 2 years ago. From personal experience, the only way I made progress in my SM was through continued, difficult conversations, with the help of a counselor. I never realistically thought when we started with a counselor that it would make a difference, but it did, and without it I'm sure we'd be in the same terrible place today. He typically puts blame on me. I don't treat him with enough respect or do a good enough job meeting his needs or whatever. I've gotten to a place where I don't want to ask for sex from him. That doesn't work for me. I went to see a counselor and he supported it but never put any interest in joining.
- What do you like most about your H? If the SM were fixed somehow, would you still want to stay with him for the rest of your life, knowing what you know now? We have lots of shared interests and beliefs about the world. He is very good to my children. I would feel bad if he was cut out of their lives.
- On the opposite end of the spectrum, what do you dislike the most about your relationship with your H (other than the sex)? No relationship is perfect. Is the combination of this thing, plus the lack of sex, if they both remain unfixed for another year, enough to divorce? He is so unhappy so much of the time. He cannot relax and just let loose and have fun. He's uncomfortable in most social situations and tends to pout frequently. Aggressive when he does not get his way or when confronted with disagreement. I miss fun! I miss sex and fun!
- What do you think H likes most about you? What do you think H gets the most out of his relationship with you? I don't believe he loves me (I can't remember the last time he said it) but I know he cares and enjoys the companionship. Someone to eat with at restaurants or watch a movie with. He enjoys the family I built. He enjoys being provided a home cooked meal now and then.
- On the opposite end of the spectrum, what do you think H dislikes the most about you or your relationship? He does not like inability to leave the state due to co-parenting. He would also say I do not give him enough respect.
Why won't your lover leave his current W? Again, some thoughts in no particular order:
- Life is complicated. I know this all too well because my current situation is still very complicated. Your lover may see your quarterly flings as being the least complicated solution for now that still maintains his sanity and fulfills his intimacy needs.
- It might be possible that your lover has more than 2 women in his life. (I have no idea... just thinking outside the box for possible reasons). If so, might he be trying to figure out *who* he wants to leave his W for... once all of his kids are grown? You mentioned that 10 years ago you reconnected with him, then you weren't involved with him (but perhaps he was involved with a 3rd woman during this time?), and now you reconnected a few years ago? This theory would fit that situation. I have wondered about other women but never really believed it due to what has seemed to be a true connection. He sure does not have much time though!!
- He might simply be waiting for the the kids to be old enough (e.g. graduate HS) where it won't be as difficult for them. One in middle school, one in HS, and one in college. He said recently they would be fine now if marriage ended.
- Could be many other reasons. Again, life is complicated.
Hope these thoughts help. Sorry you're part of the club, but welcome nonetheless. And in the immortal words of Jimmy Buffet... Why don't we (all) get drunk and screw? LOL!! Great questions and thanks for guiding me into some self reflection.
TL2
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 17:52:50 GMT -5
Two clubs!!! Ughhh. As much as I appreciate the information and support I have seen on here, I really can't believe this is my current reality. The married lover recently turned down a chance for us to get a night alone due to his internal conflict on cheating and it felt like rejection which is exactly the feeling I was running away from! I know the reality of married men not leaving wives no matter how unhappy. I guess I hoped the strength and endurance of our connection might prove to be the exception. Now I am imagining losing him as well. LITW : I understand! This is my 3rd marriage so imagine the personal admission of failure necessary to leave? Same experience here, my AP loved me so much blah blah but she wouldn't leave her cold dead sexless marriage. So I dumped her. No one is worth living on the fringes of their life. |
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Post by angryspartan on Jun 27, 2016 18:33:26 GMT -5
Yes you've joined a club. It makes emo's look happier than Care Bears.
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Post by baza on Jun 27, 2016 18:34:49 GMT -5
"Why won't my lover leave his unhappy marriage ?"
There could be all sorts of reasons for that.
Those reasons could be quite similar as the reasons *you* have for not leaving *your* unhappy marriage.
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The facts on the ground appear to be, he's not leaving his, and *you* are not leaving *yours*.
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And on that basis, "you" and "him" have no future as far as being able to form a new primary relationship goes.
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The anecdotal evidence in this group (and the old EP group) is that there is a huge gender imbalance when it comes to leaving an unhappy marriage.
Out of every 6 people who DO leave, 5 of them are women.
Blokes are 5 times less likely to leave.
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"Why" that is can be speculated upon until the cows come home, but it won't make any material difference to the fact.
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I dunno if it would help at all, but there are, in this group presently, about a 50/50 mix of blokes and chicks in ILIASM shitholes, and if you read a fair bit in here, you will find people like bbgirl, mountainrunner, JMX, grantgeek and other women who are pro-actively getting out right now. You won't find many blokes doing the same thing.
But these blokes stories might give you some insight about their reasoning.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Jun 27, 2016 19:24:53 GMT -5
Emma - I identify with the sexless affair as well (I mean - mine was mind-blowing sex, for sure - the good stuff, as you've said! - but much more infrequent than I wanted). My loverman was divorced, even - so it was only his job and/or his preference for single life (perhaps other lovers, but I think more like his preferred refractory period between roots)
I'm only in control of me. I quit asking why with my sexless husband after a long while. With Loverman, it took less time to quit asking why. I have a lot of rebuilding to do (self-respect/to esteem/to love). I don't have time for a dude that doesn't have time for me. (My mind keeps reminding - no matter that some other parts of me still miss the f*cker)
Your own self-examination should remain your focus.
"I can't be happy unless I live in Montana" is an excuse. Your sexless husband just can't be happy and you can't make him so (and neither can a perfect job or a geographic cure or a sprinkle of unicorn poop, for that matter - - only HE can, and only if he chooses to - and he has chosen to "coast" instead of engage - - and if you're coasting, then you're only pointed one direction: downhill.)
I'd suggest do not tie your happiness to his happiness. I'd suggest you seek your own counselor/therapist for clarity of your aims - whether he is interested or not.
And - - welcome, sister Emma. Sorry to e meeting you here but glad to hear your story - - you reek of good qualities - I hope you find your happiness!
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Post by nyartgal on Jun 27, 2016 20:00:59 GMT -5
Sorry to be so blunt, but it doesn't appear that you love each other. You seem to be more worried about the feelings of failure/stigma of getting divorced again, which is of course understandable but not enough in my mind to stay in a dead marriage with a boring, passive aggressive, depressed guy who makes excuses or blames you for what's wrong and isn't doing anything to make himself or you happier. Especially when you know you can get laid elsewhere.
You don't have kids together, you don't need his money, and you don't seem to particularly want to be around him. I'd say put a fork in this one and stigma and embarrassment be damned.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 27, 2016 21:38:27 GMT -5
***
Hope these thoughts help. Sorry you're part of the club, but welcome nonetheless. And in the immortal words of Jimmy Buffet... Why don't we (all) get drunk and screw? LOL!! Great questions and thanks for guiding me into some self reflection.
TL2
I think if you've been around some good websites like this one and the old EP for a year or more you should probably be given an honorary degree in psychology and/or counseling. Glad the questions helped with some self reflection. That is where all changes start, big or small. I think that somehow, if your H is able to surround himself with more positive things and positive messages and positive friends/people, and believes that he can make / accomplish positive changes in his life every day or week (even if slowly), then it may have a spill over effect on other areas too. The hardest steps of a long journey are the first ones. Once you get a little momentum, the following steps get easier. But it starts with digging deep within yourself and making a commitment to doing *something* different. Last year I made a resolution to work out at the gym a minimum of 3 times a week. I've kept that commitment (on average) and I've found that the exercise helps me to be more positive and helps me get through the bad times / times that aren't that great. It sounds like your H already works out, but maybe there's another healthy habit that he might be able to get excited about "accomplishing". If you keep accomplishing things I think you start feeling better about life in general. Re: positive messages, I have my computer change its background to a new positive message meme every 5 minutes (I've accumulated plenty over the years). It helps me to keep some good positive messages fresh in my mind throughout the day. So if I start thinking negative thoughts, these memes often will help "pull me out" before I get stuck in some negative thinking. More random thoughts. Hope they help! TL2 |
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Post by snowman12345 on Jun 28, 2016 7:44:44 GMT -5
Emma - I identify with the sexless affair as well (I mean - mine was mind-blowing sex, for sure - the good stuff, as you've said! - but much more infrequent than I wanted). My loverman was divorced, even - so it was only his job and/or his preference for single life (perhaps other lovers, but I think more like his preferred refractory period between roots) I'm only in control of me. I quit asking why with my sexless husband after a long while. With Loverman, it took less time to quit asking why. I have a lot of rebuilding to do (self-respect/to esteem/to love). I don't have time for a dude that doesn't have time for me. (My mind keeps reminding - no matter that some other parts of me still miss the f*cker) Your own self-examination should remain your focus. "I can't be happy unless I live in Montana" is an excuse. Your sexless husband just can't be happy and you can't make him so (and neither can a perfect job or a geographic cure or a sprinkle of unicorn poop, for that matter - - only HE can, and only if he chooses to - and he has chosen to "coast" instead of engage - - and if you're coasting, then you're only pointed one direction: downhill.) I'd suggest do not tie your happiness to his happiness. I'd suggest you seek your own counselor/therapist for clarity of your aims - whether he is interested or not. And - - welcome, sister Emma. Sorry to e meeting you here but glad to hear your story - - you reek of good qualities - I hope you find your happiness! What she said exactly. Welcome to this stupid club. The only thing you can change is you - the "why" question must change to the "what" am I going to do about it question. Until then you are like a rowboat with one ore - you can only go around in circles. Oh, by the way, if you are having unprotected sex with your AP, I suggest you reconsider because if he is cheating with you there is a good chance he is cheating on you too. Easier to wear a condom then to explain an nasty STD. Good luck to you and I hope you find what you are looking for.
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