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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 13, 2016 13:05:20 GMT -5
I would like to hear from those who left/leaving their sm that spent years being a stay at home mom...How did you regain you independence? What jobs did you pursue? I have no family members here and I am currently working towards a business degree, but I feel like I may be better off getting a job that only requires an Associate Degree such as an occupational therapist assistant or physical therapist assistant .. Any suggestions ? There is good advice in this thread, the income may be nominal but cost to get there could be high. I'd suggest caution about allowing too much debt with secondary schools for the occupational therapist or physical therapist assistant degrees.
Being at home with kids, while noble, can certainly make you feel like you are living "ground hog" day especially if your refuser H shows no gratitude. I think IT is good for the kids to see your ambition. Independence is a great feeling. Teaching at a school maybe? Schools are always in need it seems and an AA is often sufficient to start.
I love your idea of the business degree though; I'd suggest learning Microsoft Office (Excel, Word, Powerpoint, Outlook and Publisher.) So many practical uses in almost every job. And if you are even barely creative, building marketing flyers and presentations with Publisher is easy and can be so valuable. The MBA has the purpose of getting you into a Company, Microsoft Office makes you useful from day one. I am in the home building business and there are so many functions in the industry but you would find a minor or major in finance (business degree) the best financial return for the schooling.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 12, 2016 17:34:51 GMT -5
This is us too. Confirmed by another conversation last night. I am not sure I want to write about it yet, but the sad part of dividing a life has begun. I am so sorry JMX. We had this conversation exactly 5 years ago. I woke up the next day thinking it couldn't be for real. But we had discussed the splitting. It was more on her terms overall but I just stayed busy and worked, she realized how lonely it was and the realization of her new "friends" being quite temporary moved her off the path. Not that the band-aid rip would not have been the best thing but the timing was off and her motives at the time were off. She has definitely gotten better, began working, increased her own esteem but still I miss the affection like crazy. BTW, inthe last two days, she has sat next to me on the couch - touching --ahhhhh and several other instances of toying with me. I am guarded unfortunately. I think I know the sadness you are feeling in the beginning of "dividing a life".
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 11, 2016 7:00:34 GMT -5
JMX , it's like you are trying to have two different relationships with one person. In one relationship, you are (or were) trying to be his wife. Which means being both s lover and a friend, and both of you being adults, giving and taking, and both contributing, both doing your part to delight and nurture each other. In the other relationship, you're more like the mom of a kid maybe 10 or 11 years old. Because he's rather immature, he gets into situations like the one you described at his job. It doesn't sound to me like he screws up out of spite - he just sounds irresponsible. Same man - same mind in the same body. But the relationship you have with him is the caretaking kind - even though for years, you have wanted the couple relationship with someone who can be a real partner. smartkat, you are a smart cat! So perceptive!! My cousin did this for 25 years with her husband. A good guy and smart. But always a victim, he knew exactly how to play her so as to not leave. Either BIG MONEY was on its way from some deal OR hang in there with me, I have been screwed over again. Last year, she filed, they split, he quit his job to avoid paying her (after only 3 months) but she is resolved and says "the sorry to hear about that" now pay up. She has become mechanical and uses the court, she is no longer is caretaker/mother. Note: I hate the idea of divorce, I hate what we all go through but it is nice to see the occasional break through.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 11, 2016 6:49:42 GMT -5
AM I CHANGING? I woke up a bit after 6 this morning. It has been a week since her last period started. Historically, I would quietly lock the door and move her way even if rejection were expected. But not today! Why? Historically, she would stay home with the kids and she always told critics that she knew raising her kids was her purpose. So after being home for years, she has managed a job at a local school for the past 3 years like an affair, in that it has been all consuming and always on her mind. I know it gave her some new purpose and that is important.
This also happened in 2011 for three months at a low volume restaurant gig she took on. Prior to that, it was a destitute family that she helped out somehow thinking she would “fix” their systematic lifestyle. Her missions are all consuming leaving us all wondering why she dumps us or trades us out. It’s like she needs a cause and we all get along pretty well, so little to “fix” here I guess.
But at home, we have all suffered with the neglect, fending for ourselves in most every way. For years now, I have had to pull the weight on the kid’s schooling, homework, (even though they were attending the same school!) laundry, cars, planning dinners, etc.. I always look through the Publix Ad for the deals - I love eating well and I find it rather easy to accomplish with no more than an hour/week of planning. She gives it no interest. (She does prepare dinners occasionally and often is very good and she has done well with the boy’s lunches - I refused to make the kid’s lunches long ago telling her that the more I do like that to help out, the longer she spends in the bathroom, meanwhile I get behind in my own work. I still pay care.com as a back-up for help as she has been so useless here and I have a heavy job overall.
It’s all she can do to watch a movie in the living room with us as a family. She goes off by herself very often when she is home or she is on her phone with students, student’s parents, other co-workers, etc. She has shown that she thrives on drama (aka gossip) with work, family, etc. - though she is normally a peaceable person. If not otherwise occupied, she takes long showers, spends long time periods in the bathroom, then it’s TV with the sleep timer on. Just to repeat this ignore the family, do the minimum engagement function.
Previously, the family stuff/home school is all she could/would do. To the extent of living where there is no extended family nearby to interfere and she does not like to make friends or really socialize. We – the family are no longer enough it appears. And I feel isolated. I enjoy social as much as quiet time.
LATELY - W has been ultra-friendly with me, almost playful over the past 3 weeks EXACTLY timed to when she knew the school job was over (basically the affair ended). To an extent, she is also relieved BUT it feels obvious to me that she seems to be trying to make sure she is not an Island, basically the “affair” she has had with work is over so she needs me again. I’m the reliable default guy. So I am thinking clearly? Has all doubt been removed inn my mind as to my status? That I am just that anchor taken for granted as are the kids? So I know to go in and have sex, will not mean anything at all to me now? There is no bonding, just an act. She may be available (possibly) but she does not initiate. But to keep the peace, she’ll “let” me. But rather, here I am conferring with you all. Have I changed or have I just woken up? I am going for a bike ride now, and I’ll plan a summer of fun with or without her involvement. Boys need to learn to camp and I love adventures. Meanwhile, I am still looking for the duplex or multi-family unit to buy this summer.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 10, 2016 14:29:00 GMT -5
But I do see it can be a lot to juggle and can be difficult to hide your happy "aura" from your spouse. We usually get a "new spring in our step" so to speak when we get that rush of life back into us and it likely will be noticed. Some spouses choose to ignore what they suspect is going on as long as their world remains the same. But a lot of caution needed not to get caught or followed. I doubt many of the refusing spouses here are tuned in enough to notice ANYTHING. And I'd bet the refusing husbands are even more tone deaf than the wives. Particularly if the "Open Marriage" has been discussed. That usually doesn't come up until conversation 377 fails. I'm guessing Isabellas39 's husband is dead and just waiting for the wagon to come and pick him up. LOL, you are probably spot on!
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 10, 2016 14:24:03 GMT -5
. She has also had pain with sex in the past, and has often said that is what deters her, to which I have offered to go to the doctor with her to see if there is anything that can be done. She has also declined to do this. We have a beautiful daughter that is now 2 months old and I understand that currently with breastfeeding there can be sexual issues. I am just trying to mentally come to terms with a life of celibacy. I am a very conservative christian so divorce or affairs are not options, and this is not even what I want. In reality, I love my wife, and I only want to have sex with her. I would like to take a stab at this part. I too am a Christ follower. I believe divorce is a sin. I also believe that God loves and forgives sinners. I believe in marriage and vows. You took a vow to be faithful, to have sex with only one person on this planet. That vow is broken when that is taken from you. Does God look down and smile on that? That's not what my bible says. Many parts of marital vows are things beyond your control. For richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, for better or for worse. All those things can change by the end of today! A car accident, a fire etc... what is in our control is husbands respect your wives, wives respect your husbands. Respect. Now we are talking about meeting each other's needs. Submission. Why is submission mentioned as a curse from the beginning? Because it has to do with control. Control comes in many ways. One of those is fear. Controlling your circumstances to try and illuminate fear. The person who is content with things remaining the same has fears of the new. So they are controlling others by not accepting change. todays churches are still very hidden behind their masks of laws, rules, standards, and virtues. Just a side note: when Jesus was at a party who did he say loved him the most, was closest to knowing him? Was it the disciples, the pharasies, no it was the prostitute! i would like to suggest some reading for you. Boundaries in Marriage by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. Grab a highlighter and get ready for a bunch of , " that's what happens to me" moments. Wild at Heart By John Elderedge. The first 70 pages will make you want to read it again and again. A Scandalous Freedom by Steve Brown. I am only half way through with this one. It Blows away so many of those old false traditions of religion and sheds light on the true radical nature of the gospel. Every book I have ever read about Christian Family puts God first , Marriage second, and Family third. agape love is a unselfish commitment to the greatest good of another. ( like rescuing a person from a burning vehicle.) Marriage is a covenant, an agreement,a bond . This involves giving and taking. Great book suggetsions. I used to hear Steve Brown when I traveled to Miami a lot. I'll buy the book.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 10, 2016 14:09:36 GMT -5
Isabellas39 - I've never outsourced but I usually would take flirting to that point to which I believed I could take it further - maybe as a sort of validation for myself due to the neglect at home. Good advice here though from the comments above. CreelUnion "There are PILES of men running around in Sexless Marriages not by their own choosing, so I don't think you would have any trouble finding a "One Woman Man". But the rest of it -- impromptu playfulness; evenings, nights, and mornings; and the rest of the things we associate with committed relationships -- are nearly impossible with an affair."
I am a one woman man (SM not by choice)and if you were nearby, I know it would be smartly discreet but there would be some romance, eating, coffee & dessert, riding horses on the beach here, even a couple days away to make it (the affair) fulfilling in a rounded sort of way. We'd have open conversation about thoughts, dreams, kids, and money including figuring out how to pay for the outings or rooms. But I do see it can be a lot to juggle and can be difficult to hide your happy "aura" from your spouse. We usually get a "new spring in our step" so to speak when we get that rush of life back into us and it likely will be noticed. Some spouses choose to ignore what they suspect is going on as long as their world remains the same. But a lot of caution needed not to get caught or followed.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 10, 2016 12:27:46 GMT -5
What's he been like since that update JMX ? Has his stamina remained or is he sliding back already? It so messes with your mind doesn't it. Makes you doubt what you know to be true. They are so manipulative. Grrrr Xxxxxx JMX - you know we are excited for your progress and how you have effected change in your H. But his stamina - how long can he be your "man" before slipping back? I know even if you get weak this week, your resolve will return. I don't know the whole back story, is he a gamer? Unemployed? My father was not a bad or abusive man. My parents did not have a SM until later life BUT he would never work steadily though he could. He was very smart but sort of a misfit in the regular world so just avoided it. My mother took jobs to support us where he would not. And he let her. But when she said you have to work or I am gone or power gets shut off, etc. he found a way - it was amazing to see when in a corner, I guy can perform. But he always slipped back to neutral unfortunately. Why they do not perform as a natural instinct is the million dollar question isn't it? Maybe I work extra hard maybe because I saw the mess created when he didn't. In my opinion, an idle man needs to pull himself up by the bootstraps, stand tall and take on his family responsibilities as though his life depended on it. I'd love to hear that as an update but we are behind you no matter what! I hate that he has put so much stress onto you. Side note: Just to keep my kids (game crazy kids) active, I cut the internet many days (I have the wi-fi code) and use my phone as a hot-spot as needed for my own work. Funny to see how they suddenly find better things to do. It made me think; as they get older and don't want move out, I may sabotage the air conditioning, LOL, that'll get 'em outside.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 10, 2016 7:08:59 GMT -5
My W did this a couple weeks ago. Too nice and patient,helpful- almost suspicious to me. And availed herself to sex. I did not partake though. I was strong and proud of myself...for once? . I know she was confused and that felt good for a change, like I had a peek into a refusers mind. Werewolf mode is a tough one though with him being thoughtful and considerate. But as said above, I resent knowing he had it in him all along, yet cares too little to do it.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 10, 2016 6:54:39 GMT -5
I love sailboats. Great talent you possess. I'm sorry to see divorce in your case as you built quite a life focused on children. You both appeared to start off on solid ground. With some selfless purpose. Id love to see her come around, humble and become part of your team! Yes, a job does plenty for a man even if check is not large, it's a great validation. Art shows?
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 9, 2016 9:27:19 GMT -5
This discussion usually goes: 1. I say how I feel 2. She cries and says very little 3. I get mad 4. She says shes sorry and things will change 5. We have reset sex 6. Repeat in 3-4 months THIS IS YOUR FUTURE 2016-2021 – this will consume you, you will lose sleep, a lot of sleep. You realize that sex in marriage is not everything but when it's missing it is EVERYTHING. You will buy every book on marriage, every CD and DVD. She knows what the Bible says on the topic, but is not moved. You will leave a book or DVD well placed as a hint. You will discuss with co-workers and those from church. They will always mention Ephesians, counseling, etc. Some will talk you to near death on the matter but unless 50+, not likely the wisdom you need. She will see and hear ALL the information available but yet she cannot perform. She will try to hide her angst, but will feel further coerced and avoidance tactics get more and more clever. There will be a few from church who may try to subtly guilt her into being the available spouse but still, forced and mechanical and you will still be the initiator every time! You keep trying, becoming different people to please and serve to let her know you love her and really care about this marriage. You are and become the “perfect husband” and committed father (her dream man right?). Every excuse, while plausible are never really legitimate. She will suggest having another baby and sex WILL happen. Then it won’t again. Now she’ll have two very legitimate “reasons” you always will be back burner. You love those two “reasons” so you endure. No, you do not thrive, you endure. Your young man ambitions wither, life gets less exciting. And any sex will be mechanical, you’ll lose respect for her - she feels it - distance between you grows. Buying Anniversary cards become difficult to do because you cannot say “you’re the love of my life” with conviction. Valentine’s Day – “how out of town for work can I be? “ She’ll press for a new distraction such as a new house, car, etc. You will cave but still no sex or at least no decent sex. You begin to question everything including how a marriage and especially a Christian marriage goes this way. This does not represent what it should. But you smile and pose as though all is well including at church. But INSIDE you are dying! You just want to have sex *&$% it! You spot every cutie and wonder if she “likes sex”. You wonder if other couples you see every day are having sex. Then you feel guilty for lusting. But divorce is still off the table and now you are 5 years older and still the pursuer. REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT... Think about the insurance guy who went back to his old self and had him buy the right insurance. If my old self came back he'd say "buy a duplex or joined Townhouse now! Tell her how this has to be since she changed the rules early in the game. Take your life back for the sake of sanity, for life itself. Tell her that next to dying, divorce is the last thing you would choose but unfortunately marriage without sex is not marriage anymore. And it’s too important to ignore. We will goal to raise a sweet daughter as together as we can, as good friends. But I cannot live with the torture of sharing intimate space with you anymore. You can be free to find someone with whom you feel comfortable giving yourself to. Your choice baby, just like avoiding sex is your choice. You have to make a decision and take action. She may change but you have to let her know you are serious. If not, you can have friendly even fun filled conversations here for years to come.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 9, 2016 8:48:00 GMT -5
My wife and I have been married for almost 4 years now and we have been sexless for the last year and near sexless for about half of our marriage before that. After coming home from our honey moon, it was weeks before we had sex again and we quickly fell into a pattern of having sex only once a month. After about a year we would fluctuate between sex a few times a month (resetting) and not having sex for a month or two or three. We decided to have a baby about a year and a half ago, so the frequency increased somewhat but even then we often never had sex more that 2 to 3 times per month. Since we conceived we have not had sex again. Dan Man - I was you 20 years ago! Fast Slow Forward - 20 years later – LOST, CONFUSED and SAD! I can be accused of being the ultimate optimist but this does not get better buddy. If only I could share the empathy I have for you. Nobody here means to be snarky with the curt replies but they simply “get it”. You cannot resolve to celibacy, it’s not you, it’s not natural. You just cannot do it as ideal as that seems, it is not a solution for her either. THIS IS YOUR FUTURE - next post
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 8, 2016 16:50:16 GMT -5
However, my lip curls up with disgust listening to him cheerfully going about his business, while a cloud of mind-f*ck lingers above my every moment. I can't stop the tears from over-filling my eyes as I remember the feeling of being truly held or kissed or wanted. And I can't un-hear his scolding sigh of disgust in response to the sound of my muffled, uncontrollable sniffling, as I cry myself to sleep knowing I’ll have the bed all to myself soon enough. Ya know, (as I've been taking the steps to move on) he's attempted to initiate quite a few times lately (nothing to get excited about) and honestly all of those years, the rejection and confusion, the unresolved discussions, the distance and hurt have turned the tables -- I just can't. I've found myself wanting to withhold even the "required" see you later/goodnight kiss, but I deeply care for him and couldn't shouldn't do that to him. I've heard the same as to how good I have it. All the things you state about him being decent are what make it so tough. and YES a cloud of mind-f*ck lingers as they carry on like all is well. Our spouses are not "bad" people; unfortunately dysfunctional for reasons we nor they can quite understand. But we are sexual creatures. It is actually normal. I did the same as you on vacation last week - she lingered making opportunity to "fool around" in the hotel room but I would not initiate (I always have to). I was guarded - though I wanted to, YES I WANTED TO, but the resentment does grow and we feel the need to maintain some dignity. Through your almost poetic words, I can feel the hugs and affection you are craving and missing.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 8, 2016 16:27:57 GMT -5
The marital bonding, an important and unique bonding which is hard to fully explain or describe makes it more than a physical act. Funny thing is, when sexed even weekly or 10 days, I am not thinking about it much. When it's elusive, it is consuming. But I do not want it with complete strangers.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 8, 2016 16:15:50 GMT -5
I am working but had to stop quickly when I saw your update. lwoetin, I am truly sorry for what you have been coping with. But please do not look at this as failing badly. You have not failed. You are not failing. You are succeeding where many of us side step to avoid the D word. A new found freedom awaits - maybe with her and maybe without; but you will be out of limbo land. Her response is proof that there are underlying issues and where her mind has been for years. The lack of sex is only a symptom of issues (that refusers have). You at least now KNOW where things stand. You saw the tug of war because you fully see the life you live. It’s not your imagination. For her to suggest this allows for open dialogue without arguing, open conversations that you otherwise would not have. You both can be free with your words now that the tension is broken. Big Step!!! Ultimately, you may release (Divorce) each other out of love and respect for each other OR else the more open conversations will help heal wounds and she may begin being your wife 1-2 x per week. She at least is offering to free you! Free you both. You are a success in so many ways. Divorce is not failing at life- that is a stigma only. Marriage expectations and the usually clumsy way we start marriages is why they fail. We are imperfect humans trying to become one. It can work but sometimes the dream is bigger than we are as a pair. It crosses all types: poor, wealthy, famous, farmers, handsome, not so handsome, wild in bed, not so wild.. IT'S NOT YOU LWOETIN!
Drycreek is borderline genius, his words - accurate.
If she wants to D, work together on the planning so you both can be involved parents and enjoy your new lives. Don't let stuff get in the way of being amicable. Take the high road with dignity but do not get taken advantage of. NOTE: Be very cautious on what you agree to verbally. Just take notes as you both talk before you reach any settlement. If she were to lawyer up, your words or verbal promises will be used against you. But show her love in this process. If she follows through then you know she was serious. Please see it as a gift of freedom. She does not like hurting you anymore than you like to make her cry. Finally, an acquaintance of mine in SW Florida went through this. They did divorce. They both dated for 2 years. They realized that they were best for each other and remarried. Great friends and a good marriage today. Relationships - there are no easy answers. But we are here are in your corner - heck we are all on the same boat! At least you can now move forward with life though!
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