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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 23:52:22 GMT -5
Yes JMX, following through, I meant to add to my last comment "yet for all the promises, ILIASM! The same pain today as from the first month of refusals".
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 23:46:50 GMT -5
Wow JMX! Good job on the settlement papers. I've gotten change in the past by doing the same. Always a promise of help and genuine trying follows. I hope this happens for you and he does not slip right back to the neglect. I'm rooting for success. I know you're anxious - I've been there. Shoot! Once I give them to him, I am following through. He has had plenty of opportunities to change and has never exercised one in any meaningful way.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 20:55:50 GMT -5
Wow JMX! Good job on the settlement papers. I've gotten change in the past by doing the same. Always a promise of help and genuine trying follows. I hope this happens for you and he does not slip right back to the neglect. I'm rooting for success. I know you're anxious - I've been there.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 20:48:53 GMT -5
Thank you for writing this. I have heard it from you before in one form or another, but I needed it today (last night). I have had this weekend to myself and used it to work on a settlement that I hope to give to my husband tomorrow, with the hopes we can work it out in 10 days. If not, I will file on June 10th. I got slow and procrastinated all day yesterday. The weight of it all was getting to me and it seems so daunting and difficult and deep down, I am not excited about being divorced, even though I want out. I finally finished it this morning after reading this.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 20:31:58 GMT -5
Thank you for writing this. I have heard it from you before in one form or another, but I needed it today (last night). I have had this weekend to myself and used it to work on a settlement that I hope to give to my husband tomorrow, with the hopes we can work it out in 10 days. If not, I will file on June 10th. I got slow and procrastinated all day yesterday. The weight of it all was getting to me and it seems so daunting and difficult and deep down, I am not excited about being divorced, even though I want out. I finally finished it this morning after reading this.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 11:22:53 GMT -5
Bballgirl,
I totally agree. Second marriages. My jaded/real view also.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 30, 2016 7:05:50 GMT -5
Thursday - Arrived in Destin, Fl for Memorial day weekend. Stayed at a hotel with suites with lockable bedroom as best alternative to renting a condo here. Note that on Wednesday before we left, my refuser completely ignored my invitation for an afternoon bit of sex. I think she made a real light attempt to "let" me make a move on Saturday when she sent the kids down to breakfast by themselves. We were ALONE! - this is VERY RARE and usually avoided. But I was strong and waited for her to make some sort of invitation (just to be sure) which never came. But here we are at Monday morning and as with the past 4 nights, she is sleeping in the second bed with our 8 year old. Each night, I'd hear my avoider wake up to use the bathroom then quietly slip back into the bed with HIM while I lay there alone. As my breathing often gets tighter from the anxiety (sadness), I had to get out and come down for some breakfast and escape the reminder of the SM trap. That trap is HOPE - we hope, we linger (hoping they they will take advantage of the opportunity), we make innuendo, we hope, we take action, we love, we really try until we are spent and somehow we are able to try again. But only to futile ends. What is amazing and confusing still is the uses of the words "we" and "us" as in let "us" buy a place here, etc.!!
After all these year of avoidance I still do not get how these conversations referring to a future even happen. It occurs to me that just as someone with a condition, in this case I will refer to it as a an emotional condition, does not even realize that their actions are anything less than normal, therefore, they just cannot see the pain inflicted or the rejection (in our faces or indirect). At the same time, because they can change when confronted it is not easy to excuse the selfishness. Either way, let the chips fall here. I am more convicted then even last week to maintain my packing this week and MOVING! Sad yet exciting to finally get off the 50 yard line to effect change. I always come up with a reason to wait for another day to leave. Always a birthday, a holiday, 15 minutes of sex, something that has kept me here. But yet I am collapsing inside, like a suspended bridge with a cable strand snapping upon every act of avoidance and refusal, I think I have 1-2 strands left after all these years. As was stated the other day, after so many years, we become someone we don't recognize when we step back and actually look. Controlled by our refuser and our vain hope. It is interesting to watch couples in their 50's and 60's here in this paradise. For many you can see the angst in their countenance. For others you see contentment, smiles, holding of hands, attention reciprocated. That's what I would like. I think I'm worth that, I think anyway. Okay, I need to eat - great buffet waiting. Happy Memorial Day all.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 29, 2016 17:26:17 GMT -5
So well stated. That's me, frozen in time with no umph to make any real decisions - so unlike me. That cosmic event is close. For all the reasons mentioned, I've avoided the D, bur I can't take anymore. I've begun packing, will move out but legal papers will be waiting. Only because of kids though. Otherwise I'd leave it all just to be free again. There's no other language refusers even understand- just "I'm leaving".
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 25, 2016 12:12:44 GMT -5
Thank you for all the support. I am packing my things preparing to move this summer. But I will not buy a home with her. I need my own place to end this pain. I am working from home today preparing for a trip tomorrow. She gets off work early today and should be home any time now. I will watch to see if she does in fact come home early or avoids being in the house with just me and out 8 year old too long. She will have every opportunity to make "it" happen if she were so inclined. I will report back with any clever avoidance tactics or if she avails herself for a quick hit possibility. Okay, now I am in fantasy land - signing off now.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 25, 2016 12:00:56 GMT -5
You make me laugh. I once worked in a model home and had a professional woman come in doing some market research. We chatted for about 30 minutes and I was "sure" she was thinking the same thing I was (and usually am). As we walked toward the hall, she spun her little dress belt in her hand then re-tied it. WHAT WAS I THINKING! I let the opportunity pass. It could have been awesome, but no, I try to be the professional too #$#&$%@** often. These conversations do help me cope and thank you all.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 25, 2016 11:11:37 GMT -5
Thanks for being open about your "horniness" for lack of a better term. I just did not realize that there are smart, capable women with my same desires and needs. I'm greatly encouraged that hope is on the way
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 25, 2016 8:35:42 GMT -5
This was posted on EP a while back. I could not find the user name but it is one of the best written analysis of the SM.
So Is It Really About Sex? What I Have Learned From A Long Term Sexless Marriage. I read the stories here and see so many similar people in differing stages of understanding of sexless marriages. Some newbies are seeking a fix or cure. The older, more jaded, group having affairs, leaving the marriage or both simultaneously. We all believe or once believed that the physical act of sex is the source of our marital dysfunction. Over time we all will come to understand the reality of our situations.
If we take the macro view, sexless marriages come in two forms, physically unable to perform and emotionally unable to perform. Each is devastating painful and difficult to resolve. Let’s deal with each form separately.
I cannot imagine the pain of two individuals seeking to fulfill their desires for one another but blocked by an inability to consummate those desires due to some physical ailment. That would be a hellish existence. The upside is both parties would understand their situation. One would hope they were able to communicate openly to one another about their issues. The couple will still have to deal with the difficult decision of how to proceed with the relationship but the refused party (for lack of a better term) would understand why. There are no mind games associated with this problem. The difficult issue is not why but what to do about it. If there is a solutions to this problem it will be found in the medical field. If no solution is possible the couple still face the difficult decisions we all must face. No free passes.
If a healthy spouse refuses to be intimate with their mate, the relationship is suffering from emotional dysfunction. This definition describes most of us in ILIASM and will be the focus of the story. While we share the same pains of those dealing with health related issues, we also have additional burdens.
Emotionally driven sexless marriages are an affliction of the mind. The relationship starts out with much promise but evolves into a very empty existence. The partner that seemed so giving of themselves in the beginning now reluctantly gives of themselves emotionally. They seem distant, and unattached to their mate. A good night’s sleep is preferred as opposed to any interaction. Though many will maintain a pleasant relationship with their mate, participate in activities, family events and such, refusers will go out of their way to avoid intimate moments. Soon communication breaks down, very little physical interaction, (i.e. touching, kissing etc..). Sex, if there is any, is mostly unrewarding, with one partner acting as a disengaged participant. The marriage is an empty shell of the relationship that lead to marriage in the first place. They often leave the refused wondering what happened, what did I do to cause this and how do I fix this. This amounts to chasing the dreaded “why”!
Emotionally driven sexless marriages are a mental game of hide and seek. The intimacy averse (i.e.rufuser) is unable to allow anyone to be emotionally close to them so they secretly sabotage their relationships. They do this in order to protect themselves from emotional pain they could possible experience if they let someone in. They are also desperately driven to hide their devious activities in order to blame their partner if the relationship fails. Most refusers want or need their mate to stay in the relationship. They serve a base need to the refuser or they would have been sent away long ago. Many therapist believe the refusers actions are a response developed in the early years of their lives. They also believe the refuser is not aware of the trauma they are causing to the relationship or their mate. In my own experiences I find that hard to believe.
A successful emotionally driven sexless marriage requires a co-dependent (i.e.refusie). They long for the connection they once shared with the now refusing partner and are willing to endure a great deal of pain and rejection to get back those feelings. The co-dependent refusie will internalize the rejections of their mate as a reflection of their own shortcomings in the relationship. They can spend years sheepishly trying to please their mate while avoiding confrontation. Many ILIASM’ers are co-dependent refusies.
At some point the co-dependent will confront the refuser about the status of the relationship. This is what we refer to as the “Talk or Talks” as the case maybe. A successful “talk” the refused may receive an answer which may sound like the following, “I simply do not have the same needs as you”, “ or “ I am no longer attracted to you”. I call this successful as it is an honest representation of their feeling for the refusie. It may be hard to hear and painful but it is a moment of truth. A refusie that hears these words should take them as a call to action and begin ending the marriage as soon as possible. It may be painful but in the long term it is the right decision.
An unsuccessful “Talk” will force the refuser into a change of strategy in order to maintain the deception. Remember, the refuser needs their co-dependent to be in the relationship. Since they have been confronted with the “Talk” they longer can use rejection as a tool to push their partner away and they are exposed to potential emotional upheaval. They may increase emotional intimacy as much as necessary to sustain the current status. They may also choose to allow more sexual activity in hopes of complying without an emotional connection. This is often defined here as “Reset Sex”. Sometimes, the refusie is sent on futile task in order to right the relationship after the “Talk”. They do more chores around the house, set up date nights, sexy night time cloths, plan romantic getaways or burn the now famous “Bacon Scented Candles”. These task represent the emotional distractions the refusers uses to keep our focus elsewhere.
Whichever outcomes result the from the “Talk”, most often, time will lead back to where they began, in an emotionally void, sexless marriage. This is the result of not dealing with the primary issue poisoning the relationship, the intimacy averse refuser. I believe a fix to these types relationship are as rare as a million dollar lottery winner but do happen from time to time.
Given enough time, the co-dependent builds emotional walls to protect themselves from their tormentor. They are no longer willing to expose themselves to the pain and humiliation of rejection so they accept the relationship on terms defined by the refuser. By this time, hopes for a cure have faded away and complacency has set in. An unhappy truce defines the relationship. Conversations center on family, work and kids. Many will no longer sleep in the same room as their mate. Many refusies may have spent countless hours researching terms such as sexless marriage, intimacy aversion, intimacy void marriage, passive aggressive behaviors, etc on the internet, which has lead them here. They have amassed a great deal of knowledge about their situations and perhaps devised a path or “Exit Strategy” to a future freedom. Many will end the relationships and move on if they are able. Many will stay in their unhappy relationships for reasons such as fear, financial restraints, children, family, etc… Others will stay and find the intimacy they have sought in an affair or many affairs. Some will suffer in silence indefinitely.
Emotional driven sexless marriage is such as difficult relationship. In order to effect change necessary to sustain the relationship one must confront the issue directly and early in the relationship. No matter the will, the co-dependent cannot fix the relationship alone. It will require the refuser to actively participate in a solution to a problem they likely do not admit exists. The refused must establish boundaries and timelines when confronting refusers on these issues. They most likely will require an ultimatum in order to participate. If intimacy aversion is the cause, the refuser will have to undergo countless hours of individual therapy combined with hours of couple’s therapy. Unless they are truly committed to a solution all efforts will eventually fail. Is he/she starving for attention and approval of others leaving you in the balance?
It may be a difficult truth but most emotionally driven sexless marriage do fail. They fail because only one party was ever truly committed to the relationship. They fail as years rejection, pain, loneliness erode the bonds that once were present. A successful long term marriage requires both parties to be committed to the needs of the other. I wish I could give a more positive outlook for those in our situations but I cannot. If solutions were abundant the largest group on EP would be called “How I solved my Sexless Marriage”. END
The following also from EP will be of interest:
One of the things that seems to most elude people on here is why refusers refuse, and whether that can by changed or not. But I had a thought:
Pretty much everyone in the ILIASM group has a partner that refuses to have sex - for whatever reason, but they are clearly capable of doing so or would be capable of doing so if they saw to their physical, emotional and mental issues.
That's why we call them refusers. It's not just that they refuse sex. There's virtually a checklist:
1. They refuse to admit there is a problem. When pressed desperately by an unhappy spouse that has reached their limits, they swear everything will change and then go right back to refusing to believe there's a problem after a couple of weeks.
2. They refuse to change - over the long run, although it is virtually guaranteed they will "change" temporarily in emergency situations.
3. They refuse to care about their mate's normal and natural needs and desires, believing that they're shallow for wanting sex more than twice a year and acting like there is something wrong with YOU. They'll make excuses, cop-outs, any number of things to put you off.
4. They refuse to expend too much effort on anything that doesn't directly or apparently benefit them.
5. They refuse to listen. They may nod their head, they might HEAR you, but they will not listen. In their minds you are just unhappy and need a temporary pacifier so they can go back to business as usual.
This causes lots of other problems in the marriage too, because they do it with EVERY concern, not just sex.
6. They refuse to accept responsibility. They will blame every problem on you or someone else or their jobs or their stress or weight or health or habits or addictions or past trauma or parents... But not themselves. NEVER themselves. It never occurs to them.
7. They refuse to understand that it's a MARRIAGE, which is comprised of TWO PEOPLE, and that ALL problems in the marriage BEGIN AND END WITH THOSE TWO PEOPLE. When you're already doing everything you can and it's still falling apart it's usually because THEY AREN'T PULLING THEIR WEIGHT.
8. Even when outside authority figures with years of training and advanced degrees in psychology fault their behaviors or reasoning they refuse to believe it.
That's why the name is so damned appropriate - because it's what they do to everything for some damned reason and who cares how unhappy it makes someone that is loyal, loves, adores and supports them?
Why do they refuse? That seems to vary, the same as certain psychological conditions can be caused by a number of different things - but the end result is the same.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 25, 2016 2:21:45 GMT -5
Thank you eternaloptimism. I can only believe they are begging us to leave them. How else could such disregard be interpreted? Yet conversations about the future (moving, kids, new house, etc.) are as though everything is okay!!!! It's so confusing. It's insane. Yet I'm the one awake at this hour in s much pain as in year one.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 25, 2016 1:43:14 GMT -5
I used to have so much drive and ambition. So excited with life and all its potential. Over 28 years, this SM has eroded my core to a point where I feel neutralized. My dreams, hopes and plans seem pointless. For all my successes, they return empty when at home it'so lonely. She never wants to go anywhere,or experience anything new. I have to either not plan anything or go with kids only. She sure likes gossip and loves to talk and I've done my share of listening for sure. But I don't even get a "have a good day at work". Never has taken the time to see me off on any business trip. Won't even consider me to point of preparing coffee maker for next day. What's wrong with me...hanging around? The kids I tell myself. I'm so angry in the mornings to point of tears but by end of work day distractions, I stay to endure another day. WHY?!?!?!?! She once said we have a good thing here, maybe not "that" but all else.... Is she simply that clueless to what marriage is? Do refusers live in a land of delusion with no clue the pain inflicted? I'm at an IHOP frustrated with even being in the same house with her - she just pushed me away again - And I'm hungry
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 24, 2016 12:18:07 GMT -5
Purgatory is a great analogy for SM. I am at work with limited time to write but I made a little progress today. Here I am at year 28 of this purgatory - ouch, hard to see that in writing. Today I emptied my dresser drawers and moved clothes to the spare room/my office. I thought I'd report that though this seems so simple, I was anxious and somewhat short of breath as I was doing this. (She left at 7:30 for work). Here I am healthy, stable, employed, balanced, even tempered but yet this was a big step as though preparing to leave purgatory is somehow wrong. This SM thing is certainly confusing on all fronts with the supernatural ability to emotionally cripple the best of us. She can be so nice as though everything is good while I am writhing in anguish after another day of rejection. Nope, 28 years does nothing to stop the pain of this unmet need. That's all for now.
Thanks all for your posts here.
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