|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 20:50:06 GMT -5
Did I miss something here JMX that your H is BPD? Has he revealed something medically new since your settlement ultimatum?
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 14:53:04 GMT -5
So for those of us in Baz's 'thinking about leaving' camp, what is it going to take to push you over the edge? What are your deal breakers, and what will it take for you to know that you have hit them? For me, we already had the divorce discussion and basically agreed to split, and then pulled back from it and agreed to give counseling a shot to see if we can make it work. I know that I have things I am not clear on (how long do I give it, how much is enough, etc.). And I have things that I am clear on, like I need regular sex to be happy and it needs to include kissing and foreplay and making out, all of which seem to be very difficult for my wife. If we can't make those things happen, or we get to the point where it is clear we are not getting there, then I am out. (And for the record, as of now I am not wildly optimistic...) I have avoided using the word divorce. I couldn't say it. .......... I just want to make an arrangement that will be best for our children. As I have told him, it doesn't have to be the horrible picture he probably sees it as in his head. This all fucking sucks!!! I hate it! ggold, I know, I hate it too, why is this this way? But with kids, we do have to be considerate in how we do this but they also cannot be our prison door key. So knowing kids will be the focus, engage him on how he sees you sharing them. Don't agree or disagree with him, just make him talk and listen to where his head is. A refuser can suddenly change ways when they start seeing this consequence becoming real - talking it out can be scary. It will be hard to even realize you are actually having the conversation, it can feel so odd. Years ago we had a "talk" and we were specific as to wants and what was okay and not. She pretty much agreed that everything was okay to do (no anal for me). However, only once or twice was she "free with her body and it reverted. But there may be hope for you - be specific and make him be specific too. See where it goes. We're behind you!
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 13:26:28 GMT -5
For women, that physical abuse is a sure edge and I would hate to ever see that occur to anyone here. For me, it's been the lack of attention and resistance to do anything "fun" not just sex. Life is unnecessarily quiet and predictable. So many dreams of adventure and taking life by the horns kinda squashed. I guess since my W is so passive these days my edge is the fact that I see no end to the marriage let downs so I am moving forward on the duplex/fourplex idea. If she changes, great. If she finds a new man, great there too. I crossed the point of caring so either way i can cope.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 13:00:22 GMT -5
You are a wise one baza. Regarding lwoetin- I was hoping to encourage him to take him self back as a man. To show W that he is no longer subject to the ups and downs of her rejection/neglect. But for her to realize unfortunately that there are consequences to neglecting your spouse including no more closeness, romantic pursuit,flirting, anniversaries, etc. Birthdays are okay, and he will re-create a life of enjoyment with or without her. He is hurting and I would love for him to learn to say no to anything he does not feel like doing and take on 1-2 activities now that interest him. He needs to get back to that confident, hopeful man at pre-marriage like the rest of us. Saturday - TBH, I was just taking what I could get. It was early and I saw no kid in the bed so.... If rejected, I resolved to "not care" and just get on with the day. She knew I was short changed on vacation so she obliged. Plus, since I have been refusing to take buying a home seriously or really discuss, she knows I will not drive and look at anything with her when I have been neglected. It was obvious as later Saturday (6/4), she arranged we go out for Sushi and also talked about homes again as though all were well on the home front- just evidence of the control refusers yield and they know it; they are not so innocent. As stated here in another thread, we love our spouses and no one wants divorce so yes, re-set sex is hoped for. But I agree and will not count on her sustaining the pace. Meanwhile, I am still looking for a property with two to four units so the kids can have us both and we can afford a split (as horrible as that feels or sounds). That's my new way of looking at buying a property "jointly". Quick note, I'm working from home today - at least when I am not here typing - and my W called asking if I would go to the school and help load her 2 desks, chair and stuff onto a friends truck to bring here, She assumed since I am home and she has an eye exam, I would assist. I said I will NOT go there and help. But if they bring stuff here, I'd tell them where to place it in the garage. I know it sounds lame or like no big deal but these small acts of independence and not rolling every time our refusers ask, is remarkably empowering removes just a bit of control from the one with too much of it.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 11:09:43 GMT -5
Update: got home early Sunday morning and he was still sleeping. I made coffee, and hung out in my room for a bit. He woke up, stuck his head in the doorway and said "oh, hi". I wished him good morning. We avoided each other for the next couple of hours. Bizarre. This is what happens when you shred your cred, people. Full-court press of niceness. I felt sorry for him. I still love him even though I cannot do it anymore. I am sad to hurt him. I am sad it is over and the family has to break up. Recognizing his pattern and my own, I am still moving forward. But damn, it does feel wrong sometimes. Trying to learn new behaviors I expect of myself through this is very, very hard. Great update JMX! I'm the same way, we feel sorry, we do not wan to hurt anyone. But yet they hurt us daily and will not accept it. It's when you reach the "I just don't care anymore" that you are most powerful in this "jail". I still recall after our first 5 years, I gave my W the same deal in writing, agreement to sign and all. I cannot tell you how free I felt, like I could move forward in life. But she cried and agreed to get help. I caved. The rest is history present. We will all be waiting for your report as to his next move in this game of emotional chess.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 10:59:50 GMT -5
Great update JMX! It's when you reach the "I just don't care anymore" that you are most powerful in this "jail". I still recall after 5 our first years, I gave my W the same deal in writing, agreement to sign and all. I cannot tell you how free I felt and confident, like I could move forward in life. We will all be waiting for your report as to his next move in this game of emotional chess.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 10:49:30 GMT -5
yes mountainrunner, you are correct. My opinion is that heavy anger is from them finally realizing they have lost control and have no other way to vent. They pushed the envelope but pushed too far. But you and I would have reacted differently. We care about others and would have been nicer, cooperative, desiring to fix "us". Instead he got angry. He revealed true self and you do not deserve that treatment, certainly not after a SM for so long.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 10:36:39 GMT -5
Welcome ethereal! You have found a place where our confusion has plenty of company but amazing support. We do not fully understand it either (the rejection and lack of desire) and I think our refusers' don't fully understand the pain they inflict. I've learned that you can become everything, change in all the ways you mentioned but they just do not get it. To have you do the naked housework thing, wear lingerie, just caring to initiate, finding me looking for excuses to have it versus excuses to avoid it - (I'd pinch myself thinking I arrived in heaven). You are normal, he is not acting so. Welcome, you will find great support and should help you in how to cope and move forward in a positive way.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 9:11:10 GMT -5
Greatcoastal, Baza has a lot to offer. Start with writing down what you just mentioned and get it organized one thing at a time. Start with the home school stuff. Move on to organizing all the bank accounts, books. Take an hour and inventory what is in your house. Buy some boxes and heavy duty trash bags to start clearing out. This process takes about two months depending on your hours but I look at it as I am preparing for a long trip and everything needs to be organized. I am not tied to stuff, like BAZA I have done well but living a life fulfilled is so much nicer than a life filled with so much angst and the burden of things. You said you know what you want, so start preparing by getting everything into its place - as though you are moving. Stay inspired to finish it to the end. Your refuser needs to just think you are making sense of disorder and are resolved to do it. When we act, our refusers either allow a split which means they were just humoring us all along OR they change by initiating sex and becoming a responsible marriage partner again.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 8:45:08 GMT -5
There is another solution. But it's the hardest of the lot to get your head around, and extraordinarily difficult to do. - It is to accept your missus "as is" and without resentment. Without resentment being key. - You, are NOT going to change your missus, her behaviors, her attitudes, her view of the world, her view on marriage. - Given that leaving is not on your agenda, then staying IS your agenda. Poison Ivy causes a rash and is verifiable and I would say IS a legitimate excuse for both of you. I'd be grateful mine took initiative to work in the yard.
What is amazing are the excuses she uses- they are identical worldwide though using her culture is a new one for me. A geriatrics doctor once noted when asked what age his patients stop thinking about those "things", he replied "when they die." You see - you are normal.
Whatever the excuse, they somehow do not understand the life they extract from us and the lifestyle they are missing as a result. The refused do have so much to offer and we want to; but there reaches a point of "what's the point and our selfless attitudes do wane".
My wife used the extended period again last month. I asked her after she noticed I was being distant with her- "how would I know the difference between a legitimate excuse and a story? I have no way of verifying and your default answer is "no"? She said nothing and apologized. When she said she could not help it, I said there are other ways to have sex besides PIV which she replied, "Yea that's fun for you". And I replied "so what, am I not worth it?" Still nothing though unless I initiate and the ratio of yeses to attempts are still way too low - hence why I am again typing this morning.
Because the other excuses are ALL the same from your wife born opposite the world from my own refuser, you have to act or you be here 10 years from now with the exact same sadness.
REFUSERS ONLY UNDERSTAND ACTION, IF YOU TAKE NONE, NOTHING WILL CHANGE
TAKE ACTION - Begin moving from your bedroom and bathroom belongings to another end of the house. Take charge in this way but do not let on that you are upset, just resolved to your circumstance and taking it like a man. When she asks what you are doing, remain calm and steadfast but clear and UNEMOTIONAL. Practice what you will say so it comes off smoothly and shows you are taking full charge of you now and displays confidence. Something like "I love you very much BUT "I have a very normal, regular appetite and to be next to you in bed and sharing intimate space is like staring at a buffet that I am not worthy to enjoy. Although I am otherwise a strong man, this lack of flirting, romance and affection is a torture I can no longer bear. It will be a big help if I am not so close". "Every rejection is like getting hit by a car, even if slow moving, quite painful". END. Be short and succinct and keep moving.
NO LONG CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS SUBJECT ANYMORE. Refusers use long conversations as a tool to control and self-justify with words. We keep giving them the permission to reject us, so they do. She may cry, she may not know what to do as she will be shocked. She may start telling you all the things you are to blame you why she is never in the mood (all BS that needs to be ignored as it is NOT true). She may get mad - let her - then ask her, "would you choose to be in a room every day where you were slapped almost every time you walked in?" Where instead of the buffet, you are offered only scraps to "enjoy?" To go where the one you love, evades you by always finding something to do to avoid being alone?" To be told you are not valuable by the one to whom you are committed if not devoted? "How would that make you feel?" Then keep moving.
This will be a start, though a Band-Aid for you getting breath back into your lungs. She must come to understand the pain caused. If she takes no action to change, you need to resolve that you will in fact begin to learn to enjoy life without a full time partner. Start with planning an activity you have put off due to being married. She is invited but it's alright if she does not. If she goes, book separate rooms - just to send the message. You have to force her to initiate and learn to get more into it. THIS IS A TIME WHERE MONEY CANNOT BE THE THING THAT KEEPS YOU FROM MOVING FORWARD - DON'T LET IT BE THE TRAP THAT HOLDS YOU IN PLACE UNTIL YOU HAVE STARVED NEARLY TO DEATH.
And back to what Baza said, resolve to be pleasant and non-resentful (HARD TO DO I KNOW) but you have to do things for yourself to feel alive again. As the matter gets discussed, stay calm and remind her it is her choice - when a spouse removes sex from the relationship, she also removes the romance and a connectedness reserved for marriage - so being comfortable room-mates is the only alternative. Let her know in your culture, divorce is not an option but self preservation is a noble endeavor. TAKE ACTION and see what happens. Your suffering cannot get worse. My bet though is, she is a smart person and understands the consequences of you being too independent and will initiate sex. Then you can lead into expectations. You can be clear without being vulgar so she sees that you respect her.
I finally did this, had sex Thursday and again Saturday morning I made a move at 5:05 and she obliged, not a flinch of rejection.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 3, 2016 17:43:01 GMT -5
Thank you for the test recommendation! I think I like my ESFP rating. Though I do plan and keep things in order, I do value freedom over structure and I desire living each day fully. That's what makes a SM so terribly painful. Morning "action" or an afternoon rendezvous or a quickie in the tent under the Colorado stars should be such a big part of that carpe diem attitude.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 3, 2016 13:23:39 GMT -5
You wonder how she can go about her daily life not realizing that her actions are anything but normal. At the same time, by not bringing it up and pretending like everything else is just swell, you are contributing. I am not trying to sharpshoot you, but the normalcy part of this problem takes two. I get how that happens. Bringing up the SM thing makes for a lot of discomfort and sometimes for an unbearable home life. Perhaps, if you are still there or for next time, ask her what the plan is for the vacation. When she asks what you mean, tell her. Or if she blathers on about beaches and restaurants, explain yourself. Tell her that you want to know whether the two of you will have any intimacy because to you that is a big part of the enjoyment of a vacation. Be honest that the lack of it has made you wish you hadn't bothered going in the past and ultimately makes you resentful because the two of you are not fulfilling that part of the marriage relationship. Let her know that it hurts you because vacation implies some special enjoyment of time spent together and you are not getting any special enjoyment out of these trips. FWIW, I believe wholly in attachment parenting. I think the family bed is important and that comforting children and making them feel secure is essential and the role of both parents, not just one. Is there any possibility that she discussed with you the importance of being close with the children and you ignored it because you didn't share the opinion? If so, that could have created some resentment on her part. If that is possible, be prepared to take responsibility for how that made your wife feel and how it might be contributing to some overcompensation on her part now whereby she spends all of her intimacy on the kids. Despite my beliefs in attachment parenting, there is no reason to expect a parent to spend all night with an 8 year old, particularly if they are asleep and won't wake when she gets out and back into bed. Unless there are special needs involved, like ASD or the like, I think it is more than fair to have a conversation about this. The occasional night with an 8 y/o who is frightened or just wants a night with mom and dad in their bed is one thing. Spending all her time in a bed with the child at that age is setting up the child for unrealistic expectations and a skewed relationship with you and your wife, as well as alienating the marriage. Thank you for the comments Pinkberry. This is not a case of attachment parenting, rather the kids have been the easiest excuse for avoidance. Used in every respect. I am fine when they come in for comfort, etc. I often times fall asleep with them then go to my bed later. Resentments likely are there but I am confident that it is not due to opposing attitudes to attachment parenting. Even though yesterday, we did have sex (it was what I call "censored sex"), I wrote a 2 page letter today basically stating that the posing as married days are over. It is too much for me to bear and it must be the same for her. To live with someone that you work so hard at avoiding must be quite the burden to bear though foreign to me to comprehend. I don't think I could do that - be an avoider/refuser like that. I have been at this so long, I see it is purely emotional or mental as the switch for sex could be turned on when she wanted to get pregnant or when it is a holiday and she wants there to be peace, etc. It is a conscious decision as much as anything. I like the idea of sex when you need it and want it so that it does not become the whole relationship as when it's missing. But when it is there, it opens the gates to a potentially romantic, easy-going, enjoyable relationship.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 3, 2016 8:17:40 GMT -5
JMX, were you able to discuss settlement papers with him? Any update there?
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on May 31, 2016 18:11:32 GMT -5
I see that here - and elsewhere - you make a statement concerning "packing up & moving out" Brother chris. - Do you have the legal advice / doable exit strategy / shored up support network etc in place ? Very easy to discharge the Smith & Wesson straight in to your Nike's if you are not prepared. Thank you. Florida is a tough one. Legal advice says I'm screwed financially no matter what I do. Men become "indentured servants" after 20 years. It's a raw deal in all ways. So I figure as badly as she does not want this all to be long term and ugly, she will agree to some terms such as we buy a duplex or a town home in the same community due to the kids. I will make concessions and try to stick with a 5 year payout to help her get established or remarried. To keep my sanity regarding the utter unfairness of it all, I will look at any money out as the price for freedom no differently that I would pay if I had been unduly incarcerated but was offered a chance to buy my freedom. As it is, I am stuck in a rut and I want to feel free to live again. Regarding packing, I am packing all my things and moving into my spare bedroom first - just to start the upset and the conversation about where to move from here where we each have a place to live yet the kids are close. The fact that I am on this site and others for so long reveals how all consuming this issue is and how it is preventing me from moving forward in life in any respect - not like me at all. I try to disengage, look at it as a business arrangement BUT when you live with the refuser daily, it is not possible to "pretend". That said, she will not want to go all legal on me BUT IF SHE DOES, I do have my plan to make sure I do not miss my kids and I maintain the influence I have with them now. She is too dysfunctional to be the primary influence.
|
|
|
Post by cagedadventurer on May 31, 2016 0:17:42 GMT -5
on following through, yes. What I meant to add to my last comment was ... "and for all the promises and change, ILIASM!!" The pain is the same today as it was in the first months of refusal. I should have followed through.
|
|