|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 14, 2023 7:02:27 GMT -5
This thread is to allow me to unpack my SM, to seek advice and observations from others who have been there and suffered that, and to report on my pre and post "the Talk" situation....
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 14, 2023 7:15:54 GMT -5
I am a British male, 54 years old, university educated in a good job. I am married since 2001 to a long time refuser and I have a wonderful son who is 15 years old. I have been in a SM for most of my relationship with my wife and only realised recently TBH. I want to use this thread for 3 things...
1) As a kind of therapy to recount my backstory (I am a Brit after all) and reflect on the past and to try and let as much of it "go" as possible
2) To play back my recent relationship efforts and track progress after having The Talk
3) for members to keep me honest and give me the benefit of their experiences so as not to let the rose tint of past and future hope cloud the grounded reality of my experience
thanks for listening....
|
|
|
|
Post by isthisit on Nov 14, 2023 7:39:19 GMT -5
Hello and welcome. I so knew you were a Brit from the first sentence, and your comment that your wife did your head in sealed it for me! There are just a few of us here, not that it matters too much where one experiences the horror show that is a SM. I hope you get the support you need here.
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 14, 2023 7:52:15 GMT -5
BACK STORY 1
I am now 54, I have one brother, a half brother and a half sister. My parents divorced when I was 4, my mum married an emotionally abusive guy and stayed with him until I was 16, my dad emigrated to Australia when I was 9 and effectively dropped off the parent radar ... during this period I now recognise that I was emotionally damaged, it made me a pleaser, it made me put on an outgoing confident façade that was not the reality at all, I found it hard to say no, I found any form of emotional conflict (think, talking back to parents, talking with a pretty girl, having an argument, standing up for myself) caused such a bad feeling in my chest (adrenaline I assume) that I was actually physically paralysed to the spot because it felt sooo.... bad. I went with the flow, when I wanted something or someone I generally fantasised/obsessed about it and never actually did it (see previous point).
Don't get me wrong, these are self reflections on myself as I approached my 20's (in the late 1980's) that I have now as a significantly more emotionally mature individual.... I was pretty raw and unfinished but back then, all someone would have seen from the outside was a super confident, arrogant young man without any cares in the world.
I went to university at 19 and met my GF there, in April 1989, I had had some GF's from age 17 beforehand but had never got to a point that I had been ok in myself to have full sex, although I had certainly enjoyed my GF's company enough so there was no mystery about the genitals etc. etc. at all and I never had any hang-ups about sex that I can remember.
My new GF and future wife was therefore the first and only person I have had a full sexual relationship with.
My wife is the same age as me, from a Catholic family background and a "together" nuclear family situation with a brother and a sister, she has told me she had a couple of boyfriends, nothing serious and one before me at university who was the first she had had a sexual relationship with...
We had a fantastic sex life for the first 18mths or so, we did lots of stuff, it was all very hetro vanilla, but it was great fun.. In 1990 I went to Oz for 6mths as a part of my uni course (sandwich type course) mainly to reconnect with my Dad, my GF came over after about 10 weeks and after we got back home we moved in together and have not been apart since (except for a 6mth blip)
From a life event point of view, after we got back from Oz, my mum was dead at 42 within 18mths caused by a brain tumour, this had a big affect on me as she was my support but you do what you can to get through it.
You know its funny how you reconnect with memories... I recently made the effort to digitise our photo collection.... we went digital in 2006 but I scanned the photo's back to 1989 and with that triggered some memories, good and bad and I think that was the catalyst for me ending up having The Talk this year...
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 14, 2023 8:43:32 GMT -5
BACK STORY 2
so.... you know when you look back and you remember things and think.... "mmmm... that wasn't quite right....." well I have a few of those....
Pls bear in mind I am not a "challenger", I avoided (and still do to a lesser degree) conflict like it was poison...
We had been going out for 18mths and I was planning to go to Oz to see my dad, my GF was being quite possessive and I was getting annoyed about it so I told her I was going out with my friends by myself for a night out... she was not happy but she did not really have a choice and we saw each other during the night as at uni you have a pretty tight circle of mutual friends and places you go to..
When I got back to my flat, she was in bed and told me she was not happy about the evening or that I was "leaving her to go to Oz" (we would be apart for about 10 weeks) I tried to talk it out but in the end suggested she go back to her own flat and we meet up the next day. She said that she would go back to her place but that you never know what could happen or what she would do if she was left alone.... I don't remember thinking how odd this was at the time... inexperience.... but it sounded quite self harm'ish to me......we talked and talked for hours and she told me her insecurity was caused by being molested by her brother when she was younger she would not tell me any details or the extent of the abuse.... She agreed to get counselling for this (which she says she actually did go ahead with) and the uni had good support service to be fair.
That's as much as she ever said about that... ever. It has never come up since, but now I do wonder if any of it was true at all including the counselling piece.
A few weeks later I left for Oz, and when she landed in Oz 10 weeks later it was like a stranger turned up, although our love letters (dozens) had been passionate and full of suggestions and promises and fantasies, when I came home from work that night I got such a cold reception and it subsequently was over 5days before we were intimate that I really thought something terrible had happened to her either back home in the UK before coming out or actually on the way over.
She denied any issue, but looking back, we made love less than once a week during that time and that was compared with 4 or 5 times a week back in the UK.
We got back to the UK and our sex life declined to 1 time a week, I was not happy with this and we slipped into a sexual behaviour where accepted a compromise in that I would rub my dick on her bum until I came (It feels nicer than it sounds TBH), not anal, we called it "shagging your arse" and that is what I would do 5 times a week... looking back this allowed her to roll over and check out and I let it happen..... but at the time we slipped into a routine..
That covers the university years TBH
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 14, 2023 9:52:29 GMT -5
the talk - part 1So this is the 2nd track as I am probably going to be writing a damned essay about my backstory with my wife.... Almost 6 week ago I decided that I had had enough, I had found the ILIASM forum and was gobsmacked by the shared experiences and the things people had done who were experiencing no sex and all the joy that that brings. I found things and behaviours were so common they had names/labels and I read and decided I had a script in my head to have "The Talk". I started and told her I was not happy and that we had only had sex 4 times in the last 8 years and I was not prepared to put up with it any longer. I explained that whatever we discussed or agreed or was said, I would not be walking out today so we were in a safe space where we could talk things through (as I expected that by the end of our discussion we would be in separate bedrooms and planning how we lived as House Sharers.) I explained how I had not been happy for years, but I have to admit that at this point I went to shit and started basically to explain all the nasty things I thought she had done to me over the years. there were a bunch and I am detail orientated and have a very good memory (for my own recollections from my own PoV at least) and tend to break things down to facts/places/times etc etc which does annoy my wife TBH. (I found out why a few days later but I'll cover that off later) Anyway after a few hours of me bleeding my heart out and with an expectation she would say "so what, that's just the way it is" because she had said that before one time.... she actually said that she agreed we had disconnected and that she wanted more intimacy too and that she also had needs that were not being met. I was taken aback.... this was not what I had expected and I was so thrown off my script that I listened and talked and we agreed that we would bring more intimacy into the bedroom and that we could start with snuggles every night and except for Tue and Wed (she has to be out early for work Wed/Thur) was a possibility that we may end up doing something...and just snuggles on Tue/Wed would be nice anyway. So this was where "The Talk" turned into the talk - I didn't even realise I had not nailed it..... in my head I had been 100% clear.......and I got ready to see what would happen.... I was not especially optimistic, about once a month to 6weeks in the past my wife would wake me in the middle of the night and let me play with her but the last time that had happened was in 2020 so she had not initiated anything for a few years and my experience was of being pushed off, rejected and occasionally offered her bum to relieve my sexual frustrations against while she effectively rolled over, checked out and went off to sleep. I decided to track progress and created a set events that can be seen below that come up to current date  I am not sure if it is legible or not, green is what I would call great sex, fully interactive and yellow is what I have learnt is called Star Fish sex (I thought that it was actually just "sex" until I found ILIASM but the analogy is perfect). Blue is jointly playing with each other to orgasm, Purple is me orgasming, Green her orgasming, Orange is snuggles and grey is no touch no nothing. I might add that I am considering a new category of "she started I had to finish myself", because (in my view) she has had so little experience or care to do things to me to make me orgasm she is not great at it TBH, through lack of practice - so I have ended up doing it myself a few times now, but at least with her there and not finding a quiet spot to have a wank 3-5 times a week. But I think that is maybe being a bit picky. The bottom line is that for the last 5 weeks the amount of times we have had some form of intimacy has basically been equivalent to a years or more vs. normally. The problem for me was that it has been lots of mutual masturbation but no actual sex and this blew up on Saturday. I had been out on a course on Saturday and when I got home I was horny as although I had played with my Wife on Friday AM we had not done anything for me since Monday. I asked if we would have some passion tonight and she said "we will def focus on you tonight" that was nice but I was wanting more so I said it would be really good if we had sex.... I think there was a bit of an atmosphere as she went a bit quiet at that point, but nothing was said.... we went about life, I made fresh pizza for every one and had a beer and my wife had a glass of prosecco... that was 5.30pm. Well at 8pm we are on the sofa and she makes a kind of oouchh noise.... her knee is playing up and hurting .... at 9pm she says how she is not feeling that great.... at 9.45pm she says that she is off up to bed early because she is so knackered.... I said " I'll be up in 15...." as to be 100% transparent I felt I was on a promise and she said "Well I'll probably be asleep by 10 o'clock"..... I was triggered and said "REALLY?  ?" and she says "YES really" and I said "well what the fuck, W..H..A..T..E..V..E..R....." and she sulked off and left the room...... Basically I read this as her being anxious because I had made it clear I wanted sex and she was doing an avoidance dance that had taken her all of 4hrs to work through.....because she knew that NO was not something I would accept right now So 15mins later I head upstairs and she is not asleep she is reading her kindle, she says "what the hell was that? I am willing to try? why were you so nasty?" and I lost my cool and told her I felt manipulated and triggered and that it was clear she was trying to avoid intimacy and she knew I was really really horny and her just now saying she was "ready and willing to try" was a load of old bullshit and that she needed to reflect on what we had discussed and actually have an opinion and communicate with me about what she wanted and anything else she wanted to unpack and that I was not sleeping with her and we could talk in the AM. She asked where I was going to sleep and I said on the couch and stomped off.... that was 10.15pm At 11.15 she woke me up in the living room... not with anything nice.... she just turned all the lights on and when I startled awake she was sat on the end of the sofa and she said " I was going to say that you can't sleep down here on the couch.... but actually it seems you can!!!!!"..... silence for a few mins then "actually I was quite horny when you left"...... silence for a few mins.... I was not in the mood be to be played... I waited and she finally said "look I thought we had made really good progress these last few weeks, can we go back up stairs and talk about it?" so I said ok and we went up. She felt that It was not all her and that I was partly to blame for us becoming distant and she felt I could not just expect everything to be fixed straight away. I asked her to elaborate/explain and she didn't (she hates me asking for details) provide details or specifics but we talked more and then we played around and she was very horny and wet and we tried to have sex but she said it hurt so that stopped all that in a millisecond. That's when it became clear, on Saturday the 11th Nov that whilst I thought we had had "The Talk", it turned out we had just had " a talk", like many times before and I needed to take Miesta's advice and make sure I had a script and delivered it fully because at best case she was not getting 100% of what I meant and at worst case by not being specific about What/When/Consequences, she was being dealt a "get out of anything for free card"......... Onwards to Monday the 13th Nov.... "The Talk" day
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 15, 2023 5:33:28 GMT -5
Back Story 3 – How to make Magic Sex Sauce
So… I think about my time with my W in terms of where we were living at the time… Our early years were the usual 20’s stuff. Working really hard, long days, becoming fixed in routines and for me, longing for and fantasising/obsessing about our sex life becoming more frequent and varied in the early years, and just existent in the later years….
Loads of time spent why-chasing and what-chasing and not understanding or taking the exit when it was easy, catch free and more possible.
I believed for at least 25 years that if I could find the right ingredients, I could make the perfect Magic Sex Sauce that would make my wife happy and willing to indulge me in every fantasy I was having about having sex with her…. BTW I say make her happy, that is projection as I have no reason to believe she was especially unhappy and certainly not caused by any absence of our sex life.
We lost jobs, got new jobs, moved countries a couple of times, moved house probably a dozen times and looking back I can see that apart from one move which was effectively a reflex caused by an unexpected redundancy, most of the moves and life changes we have made have been driven by me seeking to fix “issues” that my W has presented me with in our talks about how I am unhappy with our sex life, as I have tried to find the magic sauce that will fix the “no sex machine”. (what’s the matter babe? what’s going on?… how can I help? What do you need? How can we fix this?….)
I let her know about this in our the talk a few weeks ago and I am convinced she had no idea that so many things had been done and choices had been made based on perhaps a meaningless or throw away comment/lie made by her to quickly close down what I had thought to be a grown up conversation about our sex life.
Or alternatively me not caring if we moved/got rid of xyz/let friendships go cold or not being very sentimental about aspects of our life that for me were clearly things/stuff/places/people that were not going to be an active ingredient in the “magic sex sauce” even though I had been led to believe they were….
Its quite sobering when you realise that the life you lead now, right now, was created pretty much solely created by decisions driven by taking a path marked “This way to a better sex life……”
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 15, 2023 6:33:43 GMT -5
Back Story 4 – When you know she can lie about the BIG stuff pt1
I have very few examples of when 100% for certain I know she was lying to me about things (just two to be honest) and a few events where she said she was lying herself retrospectively ….. not sure what to do with those, do you believe a person capable of lying about the BIG stuff? And a few where I speculate that she may have been lying and although I would certainly like to know, I am not sure I will ever get an answer.
I have to go with MirrorOrchid on this and I will assume that everything she says is actually a lie right now and motivated by whatever avoidance/issues she is dealing with and that only her actions that I can witness myself are actually the truth…. (sigh)
I had started a high pressure job in the mid 90’s and I was at work all hours and completely absorbed by it…. To the exclusion of my W TBH and we started drifting apart.
She took up a close friendship with a guy from work, nice enough guy having some problems (turned out he was gay and wrestling with coming out…. but I did not know that) She spent a lot of time on the phone with him when we were at home (sat at the top of the stairs) and he came over for a few meals Etc. Etc. I lost my job at that place and it was VERY acrimonious and really impacted me… I definitely entered my man cave and looked for a new job. I got one in Aug 1998 and it was contracting in London, so I had to be present and there to earn anything.
My W told me she wanted to go on holiday and I said I couldn’t as I had just started my new job. She said that she still wanted a break and was going to go to Turkey with her new friend, separate rooms all above board, no issues. I have no idea where my head was at, but I must have said OK, as they went ahead with the holiday. 10 days later she got back, said they had had a good time and life continued on.
We continued to become more distant and this was the first time I recall we went from little to no sex … I went out a few times as a threesome and they were like teenagers, giggling and messing around. She disconnected at a time I was looking for reassurance after my job crash and we had a tough time and decided we would go to Hong Kong for XMAS to get away and reconnect after my work stuff etc. We went and TBH we had sex every night for 7 days.. but it did feel a bit forced …
After XMAS we went to a work friend of hers for dinner (Feb ’99) and it was super weird.. W sat with this guy all night in the front room, I was in the kitchen with the rest of her mates it was a very weird atmosphere... I sat in kitchen/dining room & some colleague of theirs I didn't even know well asks me “am I worried” as they are “having an affair, been going on months, everyone in the office knows”, and “they’re fucking you know….” I knew this person was properly toxic from a few months back but I was put in a very bad place.
We drove home via his flat where she went in and I waited 35mins, assuming this was the end and feeling paralysed by the pain and adrenaline… she got back in the car and announced that she had been told it was ok to tell me that he was gay… and now home pls…WTF.
Then it was as if nothing had happened and we went home….
So, the lie…. A week after this I got the photo’s from Hong Kong developed and on the roll were 3 photo’s from their holiday in Turkey from 6mths before, one of him in a wetsuit in the sea…. 1 of her in a room in a towel robe doing her hair and one of him stood up in the room in just his underpants…. Both pictures had been taken with one person lying on the bed. I challenged her as it was clear she had been lying about separate rooms and asked if they had had sex and were in a relationship. She denied it and said he was gay as I knew full well, I said he had been married before and divorced and when the lie happened I did not know he was gay and I am not sure she did either…… and to this day I do not know if anything happened between them (or if she wanted it to) although she says that she has never been unfaithful or had an affair.
That lie, our stopped sex life and her living with me but really being in at least an emotional relationship with him caused us to break up a couple of months later and I moved out for 6mths, but we reconciled and got back together, agreed some changes in our work and life and looked forward.
This was the first BIG lie I caught her out in, there was one other 10 yrs before but I am still not sure if that was a lie or not....
(postscript - I found a few old rolls of film while doing the digitising.... they are due back this week, I know they are from around that time 98-2000, she knows they are on the way and I wonder if she is nervous about what might be on them or not... we'll see.)
End of Pt1
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 15, 2023 7:09:46 GMT -5
Back Story 5 – When you know she can lie about the BIG stuff pt2
So… she got a parking fine in 2017 and she ignored it, it was in a private carpark and the company that wanted payment were pretty bloody aggressive about it. Letters came and she told me it was all ok, big mistake, she had not done anything, the company was wrong and she had dealt with it.
Maybe 2 mths later I get home from work and she hands me an envelope and tells me she has something we need to talk about.
The envelope contains a Court Summons, I (registered owner of the car) am being sued for £750 for the fine and fees…. She tells me she had tried to deal with it, and she had sent them £500 in cash to pay the fine and fees, but it turns out the cash was stolen in transit or at their offices (they told me the envelope was empty but cut open) and she didn’t know it had not been paid and now the summons has turned up and I had to spk with the court as they would not spk to her …. WTF….
So I drove around for a few hours to clear the red from my vision and then came home and dealt with it via debit card. £750 and the £500 from the original cash she sent.......
She said she was sorry that time, she had no where to go really.
It was a BIG lie, we have plenty of money and it was just her covering up for being obstinate and never wanting to be in the wrong or say sorry (this time the “sorry” would have been paying the damned fine) If the court clerk would have accepted talking to her instead of me I am 100% sure she would never have told me anything and just gaslighted the extra costs off on something else....
2 things stick in my mind… she sent the cash by an insured royal mail service and she never bothered to follow up and claim the £500 back on the insurance even though she had all the evidence and second, for about 4 weeks ahead of that day I knew there was more cash going out of the household than made sense a hundred pounds + per week and I kept asking her about it every week and she kept saying this bill and that lunch and these clothes and this shopping and so I discovered she can LIE like a champ and also be the most straight faced Gaslighter I could never have imagined she could ever be……
I’ve said before that she said she had lied to me about the reasons for our no sex life and that had been the case for at least 25yrs.... and I had no idea…. Bearing that in mind and her straight poker face lies about the fine, I have to wonder about other stuff too… when she told me about her abusive brother after we had been going out only 18mths and needing/getting counselling, was THAT also a BIG lie just because she was feeling insecure about me going away for 10wks and wanted some leverage…. Who knows and if I ask her, I would say there is a 50/50 chance she will tell me that she can’t remember the conversation or that it just did not happen. what else as well... most of us have secrets and some of us have BIG secrets.
Gaslighting at its finest.
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 15, 2023 7:48:21 GMT -5
the talk – part 2
So during the talk six weeks ago (not "The Talk") and the reaction after. I wanted to replay her reactions at the time of the talk, I was pretty forthright in our conversation and covered a few specific points that I had felt were important from when we had had the talks before and I wanted to know why and also what she felt about that and what her perspective was.
I know now this is why-chasing, and I understand from other posters it is pointless, but a part of me still needs something from her to be able to close it down in my mind.
So after pouring my heart out what response did I get from the talk…. Below is the points I made and the response I received – its too difficult to play back as dialog so pls accept this as my recollection of the 2 way conversation….
Me;- The last time we sat down and talked about our sex life and me being unhappy with it was in 2016, After me asking what you thought several times...You said that you had never wanted a sex life at all, ever, and whenever I had brought it up in the past you had just made something up as a reason in response and promised our sex life would improve. You said you had expected that I would see your actions afterwards did not match what you had promised and I would get that it was a lie without you having to spell it out and I would get to a breaking point and leave the relationship…. I said that makes pretty much our entire last 25yrs together a lie and that we had had dozens of the talk’s and every time for me it was because I was already at breaking point and believed we were doing what grown-ups do, and talking it out.
She said, “no I just lied” and I said that those lies had become things for me to “fix” in our relationship to improve our sex life and that included some big life decisions like moving homes, buying homes, building homes, job choices, opportunities not taken, holidays, gifts, emigration, having a child even maybe, and that she had ripped out my heart with that conversation because I knew really she was telling me that we would not have sex any more, but I had our son to think of.
I asked her what she thought and she said “I can’t remember us having that conversation…..”
I told her I also thought that her being so cruel back then was partly because she was almost having a “golden” life ….. new fabulous house, 2 BMW’s on the drive, exotic holidays, friends close by, not having to work, H not complaining about minimum housekeeping being done or him doing most of the cooking…. Just one problem left…. How do I stop him continually pestering for sex……… She said that was not the case, she thought for a while and then said “the last time we moved, (down south 3 yrs ago) was that aimed at moving me far away from my friends?” – I said no, it was because of my job security and she had not wanted to get a job to help out (asked) and she had not mentioned wanting to stay.
I had no sentimentality towards the house/area/life we were in at that time as I had custom designed our home as a part of the fix for our sex lives because she had put part of her reasons for not feeling sexy previously as being unhappy with our last house (aka go fix). Clearly it had not worked, why would her friends come into my considerations? But that seemed to be her takeaway from the whole conversation…..
I told her that at that point I had resigned myself to just being a good dad and braving it out (our son was 8 and under no circumstances was I leaving him, period) but then a year later we had been discussing one of her friends who had married only for the money and she said out of the blue “well, that’s what I did”, I think she had a glass of wine…. truth machine… that stopped me in my tracks, I joined 1 + 1 = 2, decided I been played for a complete fool and concretely made my College Plan, intending to see things through for another 10 years and then be done with it.
She said “that’s not exactly what I meant” but did not elaborate.
I said that sex had dwindled to practically none at all since that conversation in 2016 (4 times) and every time I had made a move or suggested sex the answer was no, or a physical brush off, I told her she was in charge of our sex life whether she liked it or not and 99.9% of the time her answer was “no”. She disagreed that she was in charge or had said no all the time but said that, “I can see how that is how you would see things from your point of view”, but did not elaborate.
I told her about the time we were on holiday in Barbados (2014) for XMAS and we were in bed on night 2, I made a move and she rolled over and checked out, I touched her shoulder and asked directly and clearly, “can we have sex please” she said “WHY?”, so sharply, quickly and abruptly I felt she was angry at me for even asking.. I persisted and I explained that it was “over six months since we had last had sex and it would be really nice” she actually laughed out loud, rolled over and went to sleep. That was not at all loving or caring & made me feel like shit, especially at that time of year.
Her response to this was “Which holiday to Barbados, I don't remember that"
The last point I made was about an event on our honeymoon, we had a 3wk Business class 5* trip round the world ending up in Australia in 2001 (where we were resettling) via LA, Hawaii and Fiji and at the start of week 3 we had had sex only one time and I was getting very frustrated and asked her, when we were alone on our private island near Fiji, “with you walking around in barely anything are we not going to have some passion?”, and she said “I’m stressed because of the move to Australia and I’m not in the mood” – we were on honeymoon and I thought we would be having lots of sex and if I am honest I was so angry that time, when we landed in Australia I almost said, pls go home, I can’t take this anymore…. But I didn’t and I am sure that she was disappointed that even after no sex on honeymoon I was not getting the message and STILL pestering her for sex after we landed in our new home country.
She said she could "not really recall the conversation or how she was feeling at the time", so “there was no point asking anymore about it”
Oh… and one time during the conversation she said “I am surprised you have not left me”.
that’s pretty much it…. No apology or indication of empathy TBH….
As an aside my W’s “go to” behaviour when challenged or presented with unacceptable behaviour that any usual person would just say “sorry” for and move on, is to get really really angry about what you have said, avoiding the point of the conversation and never, ever, ever say sorry…..(even my lad had got the hang of that by the time he was 10)
This was the detail and reaction to my “half” the talk 6 weeks ago…..
We started with increased intimacy on the 7th Oct 2023 but it crashed 5 weeks later on the 11th Nov and I realised that it was because we had not really had "The Talk" for real and I decided to relaunch "The Talk" on Monday this week
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 15, 2023 8:56:53 GMT -5
"The Talk" - Monday 13th Nov
OK, I am almost done.....
So after Saturday I reframed the script and on Monday I said we needed to talk about us again and here is what I basically said to her on Monday night..... I'll follow up with her thoughts and progress.... and that's it..... into "lets see what reality delivers"... I have a whole suitcase of stuff, but I think unpacking this much so far has been really helpful for me... thanks
The Talk
I’ve thought about what we have discussed over the last few days and I recognise that in the past I may not have been clear with you when I have brought up issues I have with our sex life.
In my mind, and from my point of view, when I have been very frustrated I believed I have discussed my unhappiness with a lack of sex and tried to encourage you to explain what I needed to do and what was needed in our life to fix things many times over.
You have often given me reasons we weren’t having sex and also issues that needed addressing, which I think I did, but none of them have led to any improvements in our sex life or your willingness to have a regular and varied sex life with me.
After we talked I recognise that the way I have raised these points and the euphemisms I may have used in our talks in the past may have led to the issue not being registered or understood fully and while you may have heard what I said, it may not have been 100% clear and me allowing it to slide and not following up until the next frustration point, 3, 6, 12mths later could have given you the impression that I am ok with not having sex and not fixing things.
I feel I have tried to have the conversations with you many times….. when we were on honeymoon, alone on a private island in Fiji, with you walking around in barely anything… I asked you “are we not going to have some passion?”, and you said “I’m stressed because of the move to Australia and I’m not in the mood” – we were on honeymoon and I thought we would be having lots of sex, I remember you making a point ahead of our wedding day that the 3 weeks we were away did not coincide with your period… I really misunderstood that point TBH…. especially after you made it clear many times in the UK that one of the big reasons you did not feel sexy or in the mood, was the depressing weather and cold at home, I can see from your point of view that because I did not use the word “sex” or insist on a “STOP and discuss” there and then, and just basically disconnected for the rest of the time there and read books in the lounge, I was ok with a sexless honeymoon. I was not. The pictures tell their own story of my disconnect TBH.
When we were in Barbados at XMAS and we were in bed on night 2, I asked directly and clearly, “can we have sex please” you said “WHY?”, so sharply, quickly and abruptly I felt you were angry at me for even asking.. I persisted and I explained that it was “over six months since we had last had sex and it would be really nice” you actually laughed out loud, rolled over and went to sleep. That was not at all loving or caring on your part, and frankly made me feel like shit, especially at that time of year.
I can go on but it’s all from my point of view, I don’t have any insights into why we had a sexless honeymoon or why you laughed out loud at the idea of sex in Barbados, or 5* weekends away I organised for your birthday or our anniversary that we agreed being “dirty weekends away” that were intimacy & touch free events. Or 5* holidays to Mexico, the Caribbean, the Seychelles, California, Point Arena with a log fire and jacuzzi bath etc. etc. where I called out my unhappiness time after time …. in my mind I raised the issue time and time again, but I know that you may see things differently and that is ok.
I also know you said its not all your fault and I can accept that too, you must actually tell me what’s wrong, what you are angry with me for if you want me to be able to fix things.
I want to clear down the past.
We have both said and promised that neither of us has been unfaithful or played away, and that’s really important and tells me that there is a future and we have just lost touch and not communicated well…… and I want to focus on the future.
I will let go of the past and be very, very clear about what I need the future to look like …
I think we have both really tried hard these last 5 or so weeks, and I am really happy that we have increased our levels of intimacy, but I have not been clear enough - I am not seeking our sex life to be lots of mutual masturbation, it can be a part of it, but I really do want varied and regular amounts of sex.
So I want to be really clear.
Its been at least the last 15yrs that we’ve barely had sex, I kept a record from 2008 onwards because I was very frustrated and cross at you for how infrequently I felt we were having sex, but thought I was being unreasonably demanding and underestimating the amount in my head, so I decided to keep track to show myself that actually everything was ok, it wasn’t.
We’ve been in a no sex marriage for at least that time, that’s having sex 10 times a year or less, and it has probably been the same from way before we had our son. We managed to have sex 10 times in a year in just one of those last 15yrs.
I understood the intent of our last conversation about sex and intimacy (in 2016) as you announcing our sex life would get no better. ( I will not go on about the things you said about never having wanted a sex life in the first place from the start of our relationship because I will not believe you meant to say for 28 years you had been lying about something so important to me)
But in the last 7 years since, we have had sex even less- only 4 times and I have tried to resign myself to no sex at all, endless brush offs, rejections and low levels of intimacy and thought I could live without us having a sex life whilst we jointly brought up our son. I thought I could maintain a happy positive front and that’s what I have been trying to do for the last 7 years.
But if I am honest, I can’t and it’s causing me to be very unhappy and causing me to back away from any kind of emotional intimacy or interest in being a loving couple and I feel bitter and am resenting you. Not having sex puts a dark cloud on every aspect of our marriage from my point of view, and as I said I do not like being that person at all.
I love you and I want us to fix things. I want to blow away the clouds and I want to have sex at least twice a week and to have variety in the places and positions we have sex in. Like you, I want intimacy, snuggling and stuff that may not be actual intercourse as well, but not instead of, or as a replacement for a great sex life. I need that physical affection. I’m willing to hear any additional suggestions you may have as well, but that is what I need.
I know this is a lot to absorb and seems full on, I feel I have been telling you this for years and I know it may not have landed or you may have seen it differently, but I think I have been clear now and we need to make progress on this.
If we are not making progress by the end of January '24 or have just slipped backwards, I’m going to move into a separate bedroom and we will move our relationship to a “house share” basis whilst we spend the next years jointly doing our best bringing our son up as a healthy person and seeing him off on his own.
I’ve tried to avoid this for so long and manage it myself internally, I love you, the other parts of our life are great on the whole, but thinking about the rest of my future life without sex as a part of our marriage is not something I am ok with or will accept.
I know this could be too much and you could just tell me to get lost, but I hope not, I can’t make my feelings or my needs disappear.
I am sorry for not being much clearer 5 weeks ago, it was really hard for me even to start a conversation like this.
I feel I have now been clear about what I want and when I want it to happen and what the alternative is, tell me if that’s not the case?
You may not want to talk right now but I need to know what you want to do and I’m not going to allow this to be kicked into the long grass as we may have done in the past.
I’m here to help/fix/suggest, whatever it is you need from me. We can talk things through, whatever you need to engage with this and start making changes.
___________________________
Thank you ILIASM for the script to help me get the courage to do this......
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 15, 2023 9:16:19 GMT -5
Reaction;-
She said that she had felt attacked on Saturday when I was so nasty about her not being well
She asked again, which holiday in Barbados had this happened at?
She said there was no point me giving more examples as she could not remember the anniversaries or birthdays I was talking about
She said she did not think sex twice a week was a problem but that the timetable I was setting (Jan) was too fast after so long with having minimal sex.
She asked that I don't ask her about specifics and details because she cannot remember most of the points/events I talked about and she cannot recollect her feelings at the time for the events or places she does recollect.
She felt it was now a problem with her saying "no" at all and we needed to figure that out
She asked me to explain to her what I meant by "Variety" in our sex life (but not tonight)
I said I was sorry she felt I was attacking her and explained how she had triggered me with what I thought were "avoidance excuses"
I said she needed to be more careful with her words as they are weapons and can be hurtful and destructive
I said we needed to establish a new language around sex that was safe and let each other know what was ok and what was not
I said we would not be able to fix anything by accident or without planning it
I said its ok to say no, but not just an offhand rejection as that is triggering
I said we should cuddle every night regardless, because it headed off the hand slap away that is so painful and allowed "no further/more" to become ok as well
I said I would explain variety, no issue, but not tonight....
I said she needed to come back to me with a timetable of what and when
I said I would not be letting this go and slip it into the long grass and she needed to be ready for me talking about this A LOT
Lets see!
|
|
|
|
Post by worksforme2 on Nov 15, 2023 10:19:41 GMT -5
it is a rare occassion when just having "a talk" actually brings about a real change in the dynamics of a SM. More often it requires a threat of drastic actions coming to bring about a change. I hope this approach is successful for you. I think you were correct to state if nothing happens you will leave the bedroom and the marriage will become a room mate arrangement. Her actions between now and January will tell the tale of what the future portends.
|
|
miestas
Junior Member
Posts: 74 
Age Range: 61-65
|
Post by miestas on Nov 15, 2023 16:16:41 GMT -5
Thanks for being so open and forthcoming with details.
Personally, I think you handled The Talk very well. It appears you were respectful and tried to see it from her point of view. It doesn’t appear that you allowed pent up frustration to lead you into getting angry and attacking her verbally, or becoming overly accusatory. If I had to critique, I guess I would say you let her off pretty easy on the consequences, but you left it open for further consequences to be announced if the timetable isn’t met.
To be frank, I think your experiences follow a very common theme here. Her responses were basically “I don’t remember”, and “It’s not all my fault”, but supplying no details. I take that to mean she simply can’t admit she’s mostly to blame. She was obviously unwilling to see her behavior as being all that bad or really in need of change. That is how the majority of people here have reported their experiences, from what I have read on the forum.
You have done what you can for now. I suspect the consequences will have to become much more drastic before she believes she can’t just gaslight through this as she has in the past. Stay strong. Make concrete expectations and inflexible time schedules, and hold her to them. I hope you have a good outcome.
|
|
|
|
Post by week5of35years on Nov 16, 2023 10:36:18 GMT -5
Thanks for being so open and forthcoming with details. Personally, I think you handled The Talk very well. It appears you were respectful and tried to see it from her point of view. It doesn’t appear that you allowed pent up frustration to lead you into getting angry and attacking her verbally, or becoming overly accusatory. If I had to critique, I guess I would say you let her off pretty easy on the consequences, but you left it open for further consequences to be announced if the timetable isn’t met. To be frank, I think your experiences follow a very common theme here. Her responses were basically “I don’t remember”, and “It’s not all my fault”, but supplying no details. I take that to mean she simply can’t admit she’s mostly to blame. She was obviously unwilling to see her behavior as being all that bad or really in need of change. That is how the majority of people here have reported their experiences, from what I have read on the forum. You have done what you can for now. I suspect the consequences will have to become much more drastic before she believes she can’t just gaslight through this as she has in the past. Stay strong. Make concrete expectations and inflexible time schedules, and hold her to them. I hope you have a good outcome. I have been sending her links and articles from Dr Psych Mom today to get her to connect and grow a bit emotionally and accept that I need to be allowed to expunge some bad experiences..... the photo's from the late 1990's I have had developed are back and I must admit to being super nervous that there will be more pics of her and the other guy from the 1998 holiday on it.... (Back Story 4 – When you know she can lie about the BIG stuff pt1) above or photo's from the immediately following during break we took for six months where I have a fair idea that she was living life large as an interloper on the gay scene... On the one hand I don't want to open them now and find something and lose my shit when she gets home in an hour or so, and on the other I want to give her a chance before we open the package - show her the 1998 photo's, explain why I am freaking out and give her a chance to maybe say.... "mmmm.... look pet there may be some pics in there you won't like... here is how it was..." or maybe get some reassurance with "no issues! lets take a look!!" and then that will segue into a conversation where I can expunge some baggage over my feelings about that shit and close it up..... We were awake at 5am today as she did not sleep well, I had told her if she needed me to play with her to relax to just grab me... well she finally did and she said she wrestled with half a brain saying sleep and half a brain saying orgasm... she practically screamed the house down.... anyway lets see... we both knew this parcel was due this week.... into the breach... |
|
?" and she says "YES really" and I said "well what the fuck, W..H..A..T..E..V..E..R....." and she sulked off and left the room......
