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Post by cagedadventurer on Jul 1, 2017 7:29:59 GMT -5
$$$$$$$$ No sense in spending money on a lawyer until I know whats going to happen. IMHO That's our weakness, unsure of what's going to happen. But you can cause the effect. You can know what will happen. There are only two outcomes, plan for each equally. So you actually DO know. I will add, that we all know the D has been avoided all these years for many reasons - it's not so easy. Since your kids are older, you do have to consider the gatherings, grandkids, etc. So keeping things amicable and maintaining high ground will help you maintain the respect from all. You don't want to be the bad guy. This is why the letter can hurt you if delivered, it can be kept and used against you when convenient. Write, it, know it, verbalize it BUT really consider actually delivering it. Again apocypha addressed this perfectly below.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jul 1, 2017 7:19:41 GMT -5
THE INFAMOUS LETTERS!!!! apocrypha SAID: I recall writing so many of these, as I tried to find a positive or wise enough epitaph for our relationship - some kind of final word that would create a locked tight narrative portraying me as the "Good guy" in our circles. A couple years out of the fog, I realize the folly of this, as time and distance has made me realize that this really doesn't matter much, and nobody - not neighbours or mutual friends really wants to get anywhere near the stink and flies clouding around the corpse of our relationship. And as far as I can tell, I don't think anyone has made a decision to be friends with me or with her based on their notions of what must have happened. Unfortunately, warning of a consequence doesn't make your partner more hot for you.
apocrypha - SIMPLY GENIUS!! ..... bigbossfan - I would heed these comments as pure fact
Letters written - good because they get YOUR thinking clear. So YOU to take action without mind fog. They help you become a verbal super star. Write it but ponder if you deliver it other than verbally. I just read where she was a legal assistant for 30 years. I now would put nothing in writing to her. Written words seem to always haunt. BTW, he who sees lawyer first has an advantage. Especially depending on asset levels. Just go to know your position is all. When you "talk" uh, I hate that word now, with her it is really powerful for her to know you ARE in CHARGE and ARE in control, not her. Knowing you know how to and are getting your ducks in a row, deflates her ego and power. Never play from defense in this situation. . NOT that you want to fight to a bitter end over stuff. For me if the D happens, I am fine with the challenge of doing my own thing my way in my place with my kids. If it costs, so be it, I can work. I can buy furniture and dishes - stuff I like actually. Gets kind of exciting thinking about it now. Spend the $$$ on a consult, makes no difference, she ends up paying half anyway if D happens. And you are better informed.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 29, 2017 22:15:14 GMT -5
I also am a big fan of writing my thoughts down so nothing gets lost in an argument. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. If discussion degenerates into argument, you have your points all in front of you to keep your focus on the issue you need to deal with. In my personal experience, when I get into a heated argument over something that is important to me, I don't hold back and generally end up making things worse. If I have my words written down in advance, I tend not to push quite so hard. It helps me avoid escalation. Definitely use a written letter. However, avoid argument drift in the actual conversation. I just read about this today in the GHblog. I'm not sure of the best way to stay on target, but having something written down (in outline form? step form?) to use to keep the discussion focused on your concerns would be a good idea. Anybody have any thoughts on that? Argument Drift - I do have plenty of experience with this. But to keep it short, she WILL redirect - drift - almost automatically and before you realize it, you will believe that you are the jerk in all of this and second guessing all your previous judgments. I used listen, then offer a few words. But I finally just said, "talk all you want, I am not responding". Explaining that she had this bucket full of words and she'd take mine mix them up in there and twist things around so much I was truly confused; wondering if I even had the right to think for myself. So with the letters, yes we are much better with our points when we can place our grievances in writing. My advice on this is to write it all out. Then condense it until you are less than 2 pages. If you are incredibly focused go for 1 page. (remove too many details - no need to show off that you were wise to all of her tactics). Too many words and they can and will be used against you. Practice replies like "you just need someone you'll feel free to be intimate with". "I can't be someone else for you so you need to move on". "It's torture to live with you and avoid what is so natural and normal". Just keep on point, no blames, just that the slow death effect of her avoidance requires change right now. Like BAZA says, the why is irrelevant anyhow. You don't need to point them all out, she KNOWS the games she plays. You're just explaining with uninterrupted clarity why it is time to move on and make changes. Not a bad idea to slip off your wedding band with a single line, "By the way, I think this was meant for some one else, sorry I've held on to it so long." She'll either agree or want take off her clothes. But you will get results. Stay calm, stay in control. Know your words are true and for all her rebuttals and countering, they remain true just the same. Lastly, we, the refused, should already have untethered credit cards, etc. While she is gone, unload some stuff like you are moving anyhow. It is a great feeling knowing you could be out and free in a matter of hours if you wanted and believe me, she will feel it. Your confidence will also be significantly boosted. You will get promises of change and even some action within 3 days and the cycle will continue. It's the nature of LIASM. So take the sex thereafter but get prepared (to bust out when things go back to where they are today.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 17:59:37 GMT -5
I don't think in terms of this is as good as it gets. I think of it in terms of how to do the best you can with the cards you are dealt. To a large degree, we are dealt the proverbial cards. However for hotmale, I see him as many of us here; his life goes along as it should it's "all very nice, but not very good" to quote Manilow. It's very nice for us because we do make a lot of decisions deemed responsible that keep us from many of the hardships others seem to have naturally. When in reality it is often just plain irresponsibility with a consequence vs. bad cards. Bottom line, hotmale is overall responsible and has a lot of his check boxes marked. BUT THEN THERE IS THIS BOX THAT SEEMS TO OUTSIZE ALL THE OTHERS COMBINED!
So we have all this good stuff going on - the dream - but yet we are not content? We are on this site after all! So there it is, we see the right result from so many of our life decisions BUT no matter what we do (or don't do) in the marriage, the result is elusive and we cannot control the outcome. It's the "human factor". What should makes marriage so good can also have the 180 degree affect. We have spent years trying everything but still not the predicted outcome. That's why the question can arise "is this as good as it gets?" We got no more tricks up our sleeves and it's now all just ho-hum, but we want to be wanted. I presume our actual needs are deeper than the controllable superficiality so we would consider trading most of it in for that one big box to get checked.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 14:24:46 GMT -5
I've just joined and had a quick read of several threads so apologies if this has been discussed before. I just want to know whether anyone has ever come to this conclusion.......
I just want to know if anyone else out there has taken stock of their lives and has thought fuck it. This is as good as it gets. It is a valid question. One guy has it all going on well but poor sex life and discontented., Another has a wife who loves him but then gets cancer or a major surgery. Another an accident and her physical ability goes to the wayside. BUT when rejection is not something physical rather choice or an indifference, it is this unsettling pain we cannot get over. But we often stay because we have other things pretty good, and no assurance that the next go 'round will not revert to the same thing. So, if you can just press for sex all the time. Be direct and aloof at the same time. The aloofness will help you not get down when you hear no. You know the default answer is no, so just keep asking. The more direct rejections (versus the cat and mouse evading games) you get, the more determined you will become in busting out of the SM and grateful for it. BTW, I have seen many couples who are attracted to each others personalities and confidence over appearances. Get confident at home and it will convey on the streets.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 13:17:42 GMT -5
In a week, I get the dubious privilege of writing a check for $242,000 to purchase my emancipation. I get it. But I'm still gonna write that check. With a smile. Dubious - yes, But if you were unjustly imprisoned and after 25 years the warden made you an offer of paying him/her $242,000 for your release, how fast could you say YES!? It hurts less when you see it as a get out of jail ransom payment. I have concluded that without a partner who wants you naked when on vacation and enjoying what your earnings can provide, why spend that time with them - it's always a cat and mouse game. Anxious way to live out your retirement.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 12:29:55 GMT -5
But of course, the clothes! I thought she just wanted to be comfortable around the house. Dang she looks good when she goes out - if even to shop at Wal-Mart! But at home, dressed to kill. Kill the mood that is. I ignore that and press for sex anyway BUT there is no coincidence of the clash of attire at home vs. away. It is so deliberate!
Rev316 - your scenario is not unique. Avoid, play possom, pretend to be busy, run , run, run, hide, hide, hide. The least she could do is pay half the mortgage! Yea, my care attitude is at about 1.62% from 100 when I was out of school. Why do I bother with any of it? All the responsibility, being a man, doing what a man does so I can be dismissed? Well, I'll hang onto and build on the 1.62% because I want to take my life back and have some adventure! I want to take my boys somewhere and not have her interfere with everything they try to do and make them wash their hands every 45 seconds. On a vacation, I want a woman who will send the glance my way then send the kids to the breakfast buffet while we make good on the opportunity! A woman who emails me a special she found for a short cruise or a getaway to kayak with some whales. But I spend and have spent so much time trying to make a marriage "work" thinking I am doing the right thing, while life is racing on by. Thanks for all the insight everyone! Today I am planning for me and the boys. I will start by re-reading my favorite book the 4 Hour Work Week" by Tim Ferriss. He's living my life! - note he is UNMARRIED....
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 12:03:45 GMT -5
Yes, You know nothing will ever change. You know the difference between a reset and her desiring sex. You know there are other huge issues that are the result of a long term SM. You now fully understand the idea of counter-refusal, an inevitable result of your wife's plan to make you not want her. And you know she succeeded, brilliantly. All that's left for you is a huge decision. Good luck with that decision. Beachguy said "yes, you know nothing will ever change". So last Monday morning and twice the prior week, she was a willing participant - the term willing being a subjective term of course. I see it as her being a good sport overall since I am working hard on this house, and I "deserve' some action. Note that the control is there, shirt stays on unless I "insist", no oral, restricted touching, kissing, etc. nope, just do the deed. I get two positions but still generally starfish either on back or from behind. Now this past Monday she does not say no but after 15 minutes I begin to feel like an necro...so I stop, shower, dress and head to the office. She of course will pretend to be asleep until I leave. Evening - awkward but not too abnormal. The white elephant gets ignored once again. Tuesday, I just get up and leave early. I work from home after 11. She takes long shower and comes out fully dressed. Though I think she expected me to be ready for a romp. But I wanted her to make some sort of a move first. (and why do I think such things?) Last night she sleeps with our 9 year old. This morning, I work from 6-7:30 then text her (she took her phone with her in there) for sex. She wakes up after 8 and finally came into "our" room. Just to say, "something started last night". It has only been 10 days since her last period ended and there is no evidence of anything having started. So I reply like oh - wow, already? She apologizes then lies down on the bed (door open) like I'll be happy with that! So no offer of anything else, no other play, just the statement and no way for me to really verify or not verify the excuse. Now I immediately start thinking I need to finish the basement because I need to move down there for my sanity and a little revenge I admit. But I have just read many instances where that makes NO difference. Five years can go by and still the same. So I appreciate this info. I called a contractor first thing this AM and he's coming over Friday. I need help for 2-3 days to complete the basement but now I have concluded just for the sake of resale value of home just bought. I do not want to do this another year let alone 30 more. Baza clarified in another post that we use kids and anything as excuses to stay. But he is right, we're just afraid of the unknown after the split. And as he said, watching the peculiar relationships of my older children, I am sure it makes little difference. For my 9 & 12 year old, I need a plan. My life was supposed to be an adventure. I allowed myself to stay at the first stop.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 11:21:20 GMT -5
Brother Apocrypha makes a telling point. If two people want to fuck, they find a way. They overcome things like physical distance, already being married, being of different religions, being sick, being old etc etc etc. If two people want to fuck, they overcome the logistical problems, and they fuck. Now here's us ILIASM people, in an institution blessed by the religious as an institution, recognised by the state as a legally binding union, approved by society as a valid partnership. In other words in an environment carrying the approval of just about everybody, plus physically available to each other under the same roof, and thus tailor made for the two spouses to fuck to their hearts content. But, despite the ideal conditions, one of the spouses ain't interested. Now, if the conditions are LESS than ideal, because of (insert the refusing spouses excuse here) then your odds of having a robust sex life are about *zero*. They ain't interested under the best of conditions, let alone less than ideal conditions. VERY WELL STATED apocrypha! "If two people want to fuck, they find a way." You have to think of how harsh living conditions were for millenia. Even as recently as the settling of the western U.S., lack of showers, poor hygiene, no air conditioning, arranged marriages (mail brides), labor intensive survival day after day, the constant worries of just surviving. NONE of that is so much us in 2017, yet "despite the ideal conditions, one of the spouses ain't interested." One of the major frustrations however is that we know our spouses are capable, they can boink whenever and however. (e.g. , pre-marriage, when pregnancy is desired, when they sense discontent and need to keep things on track, pool boy, after counseling, etc. ). Damn it! Just screw me already and tell me to have a great day at work and I probably will.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 10:59:57 GMT -5
The past couple of weeks my wife has sensed something was bothering me and tried to talk a few times, but I put it off knowing it was going to be a long stressful conversation and it wasn't the right time. The kids are out of town this week so I decided I would talk to her on Monday and I had prepared what I wanted to say about how she rejects and disrespects me on financial issues, parenting styles, and compromise, etc. When I came home she had on lingerie. I told her we needed to talk and laid it all out. She was blindsided and had felt everything was ok. She was more upset that I had ruined her reset and recharge week and says I made her feel terrible. She said she is the same she has always been and that I was being over sensitive. I explained after 25 years of feeling mistreated I had reached my breaking point and I was tired of it. She claimed I had mistreated her too and she just overlooked my shortcomings and that this is what normal couples go through. She also said she did respect me and did nice things for me but I'm just focusing on the negative. I'm starting to second guess myself. I'm so confused. Maybe I am just focusing on the negative. neonairspace, I will suggest that you are NOT just focusing on the negative. And to not second guess yourself. 25 years of.... she rejects and disrespects me on financial issues, parenting styles, and compromise, etc. was not and is not your imagination. My wife had and has tried to parent like her harsh mother (whom she cannot have us live too near). The controlling of the kids' every move to early baths (keeps them reigned in), to making me feel like an idiot for trying to get involved on their care, activities, etc. She never wants to go anywhere (except to eat out), never plans any trips, never helps with writing checks, mocks my personal preferences as ridiculous, etc. So I think I hear what you are saying brother. The only time my W used lingerie, was when she knew I was on my way out. Man I am weak! Isn't there a song, "sex is my drug...."? My W could say the exact same words right now "that she did respect me and did nice things for me...." Yes, I and I am sure you do as well, fully recognize when she shows good intentions and appreciate it. But so many years of the other $#%@ hardens you so that your appreciation is tempered because the trust level is actually so low. I think that EVEN IF she screwed your brains out daily, you still would feel this way because of so many compromises having been made where you have forgotten who you really are or were. I think I am empathizing more and more with victims of Stockholm syndrome because we somehow get so sucked into their control and controlled world. So YES, we do second guess ourselves. But we are not wrong. It's the reality of the decades long mind-f%*&.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 26, 2017 11:44:33 GMT -5
hopingforachange - I am cheering you on here!!! Good stuff. Your W sounds much like mine in so many ways; they want to do what is best or right and do not want to "hurt" anyone but somehow locked down sexually (for any variety of reasons) - at least once married that is. Just the same. I am encouraged for you at her current willingness. If she really can (this is usually a BIG IF) understand the magnitude of the destruction that constant rejection creates, her care factor (it sounds like she DOES care) may take you where you want to be. Mine can try but she never bought any clothes from Soma - you're in a decent place right now! Please keep us posted as we all want to see a success story.
Years ago My W's sister made a deal with my Bother in law (great hardworking guy) for regular sex if he would stop drinking. It was HIS idea and he loves beer but sex more of course. In less than a year and she reverted and he drinks more than ever. When suggested (I am quite opinionated in this matter of course)he needs more sex, she states "ahh, he was over that long ago". AHHHHH, delusional - she is in utter denial. I told her she was simply wrong. So slow forward 17 years and She is unhappy, he is disgusted with her overall laziness but she cannot understand or accept the pain he is in. My point is, she is too proud to admit her issue and just be there for hi. But I think your wife really wants her whole circle to be happy. I won't offer any caveat here as I can see from your posts that you are observing and treading carefully still believing you may be out the door if this sex action is short lived.
BTW - I also bought the book "Good girls Guide..." along with a few others. I have them in a gift box as a (an out the door jab) "future wedding" present to my W if/when I leave - for the benefit of the next guy - to keep him from the torture that is a SM. It is hard to get her to read anything though she will watch counselors on TV - they get me some action occasionally. They always promote sex in marriage as a God designed gift that should be fully enjoyed. I get two positions (ain't really fully enjoyed) but it is something.
I also measure "success" in how quickly we may go through a 12 pack. She is decent (lately) about obliging when I ask but does not initiate and then still far too many restrictions.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 26, 2017 11:35:20 GMT -5
hopingforachange - I am cheering you on here!!! Good stuff. Your W sounds much like mine in so many ways; they want to do what is best or right and do not want to "hurt" anyone but somehow locked down sexually (for any variety of reasons) - at least once married that is. Just the same. I am encouraged for you at her current willingness. If she really can (this is usually a BIG IF) understand the magnitude of the destruction that constant rejection creates, her care factor (it sounds like she DOES care) may take you where you want to be. Mine can try but she never bought any clothes from Soma - you're in a decent place right now! Please keep us posted as we all want to see a success story.
Years ago My W's sister made a deal with my Bother in law (great hardworking guy) for regular sex if he would stop drinking. It was HIS idea and he loves beer but sex more of course. In less than a year and she reverted and he drinks more than ever. When suggested (I am quite opinionated in this matter of course)he needs more sex, she states "ahh, he was over that long ago". AHHHHH, delusional - she is in utter denial. I told her she was simply wrong. So slow forward 17 years and She is unhappy, he is disgusted with her overall laziness but she cannot understand or accept the pain he is in. My point is, she is too proud to admit her issue and just be there for hi. But I think your wife really wants her whole circle to be happy. I won't offer any caveat here as I can see from your posts that you are observing and treading carefully still believing you may be out the door if this sex action is short lived.
BTW - I also bought the book "Good girls Guide..." along with a few others. I have them in a gift box as a (an out the door jab) "future wedding" present to my W if/when I leave - for the benefit of the next guy - to keep him from the torture that is a SM. It is hard to get her to read anything though she will watch counselors on TV - they get me some action occasionally. They always promote sex in marriage as a God designed gift that should be fully enjoyed. I get two positions (ain't really fully enjoyed) but it is something.
I also measure "success" in how quickly we may go through a 12 pack. She is decent (lately) about obliging when I ask but does not initiate and then still far too many restrictions.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 17, 2017 7:26:42 GMT -5
A part - the more constructive part- of my last post got cut off: ------------------------------------------- Try this: Say nothing to him. Don't talk or posture. After he gets home from working hard in 100 heat so that he can support your family, as soon as he steps out of the shower get on you knees and suck his dick and when done - still on your knees - look up into his eyes and say "thanks for everything you do and working so hard. let's do this more often." Smile and walk out of the room. No bullshit. From what you have told us on the forum all your actions have been 'sound and fury' and you haven't just fucked him. You talked to him about fucking him. You have been dramatic about signaling you want to fuck him. You have talked to disembodied spirits on a digital Ouija board about fucking him... You have done many thing except just fuck the dude. Just fuck him and stop the bullshit. If he denys you - then you can come here and talking about having a sexless marriage.... until that point, you are someone who is annoyed that you are being asked for sex but your life partner not happily paying the 'required tolls' for the privilege. tiffanyc, because of your ideas of romance, I thought I'd add something of value this morning BUT THEN I SAW THE POST FROM molecularchoas!! He said it! You need to just deliver the goods, expecting nothing in return. Do this for 30 days straight, in some fashion where you let him know he IS WORTHY and not falling short of your expectations anymore and you will see a miraculous turn-around from your husband as he feels you are for real and he does not have to be that perfect husband/man on floor #5 for you not to be disappointed in him. But please ask yourself if pride is in the way – if it is, it does need to go to the way-side. I am telling you, molecularchaos is RIGHT. He is speaking for a guy – us good guys who work and want to be romantic but we just cannot be 365 day Romeo’s then be penalized when falling short. You will build trust with him again and this will solve some other issues you have. I say this in a non-judgmental way really but he IS RIGHT. Say those words, tell him how you appreciate what he does! He has a crazy job and dangerous. I had to think of my cousin who married again for time #3. Her vows were hard to stomach but I attended this wedding due to our relationship, not because I was for this marriage or the previous divorce. It has been just 5 months and she is on her way out. Nothing but counseling, blah, blah, blah! She is 53! THE PROBLEM IS SHE IS mentally paralyzed by THIS NOTION OF ROMANCE! It cannot be a pre-requisite. It will be there but not like your writings – almost NEVER. So this is the new reality that may get you to a healthy marriage of trust and respect for each other. ONE MORE TIME – DO WHAT MOLECULARCHAOS SAYS. In 21-30 days you will have a new man and a new life! 30 days straight, and more than once some days!
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 15, 2017 6:52:48 GMT -5
rdp62 - You refused her! I would guess this was a tough step for you. BUT it was the leap you needed to give yourself a sense of renewed hope for a future beyond the status quo SH of a SM! I was there at just 5 years in and I recall how I felt free/alive, renewed and more confident by the hour throughout the work day. It is matter of you actually having control of something again - like it was 31 years ago. The one year before she planned and set your destiny that is! I have had to go through this every so often to jolt her to reality and the fact that I still read here regularly, things are not as I would like them. To the point of using the one time self destruct "D" threat. Well I did that by way of providing a written agreement for her to sign (first 5 years). This was real and she had to decide. But she made the decision to get help and improve. So I did not lose creditability. HOWEVER, I'd like to share that in last talk a couple years ago, I remained calm and in control and was truly aloof - to make sure I could not be swayed or manipulated. I said "really we (kids and me)are all tired of your controlling and since you have no use for me, you should find that person you can love and feel free to give yourself to." This is a suggestion as to how to NOT threaten divorce and lose credibility by placing the decision ALL onto the refuser to leave. Of course they always have ways for you to change - well we are all sick of that endless road - so stay on topic. Which is, nope, I am not changing, please go find the man of your dreams since I am obviously not! I get action now but I do have to initiate. She overall keeps a decent attitude about it but it is to avoid me leaving and less than satisfying but better living conditions as a result. Congratulations rdp62 - stay strong and do not feel guilty for refusing her the kiss this morning. This was a good trigger. It is all in her hands now...her text at 11:00 says she is concerned. You are effecting change. Don't lose momentum.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Mar 19, 2017 16:51:20 GMT -5
Lyn, "kayaks and hiking gear!?" I wish my wife talked liked that! Oh the fun you can have when matched with someone compatible.
W really trying to make attempt today- reset- but so many rejections I think my spirit is closing. Sounds like yours definitely has. After years of same mistreatment- semi torture of rejection, leaving is all that remains. I'd rip that band-aid now. I'd walk from every thing, car, boat, etc. if walking were an out today. Kids make it do difficult.
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