Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 15:05:26 GMT -5
So, I'm going along in life and think I've got my forced celibacy acceptance all lined up neatly where I can manage it. Great.
Then, something goes awry in the marriage. It doesn't have to be big. Something small even like criticizing my Kebab (that isn't innuendo, she hasn't seen my "Kebab" in a long time) and then complaining about money. Now suddenly I'm in a huge funk over something so stupid. All of the component pieces of the marriage are now thrown off the game board and I have to figure out how to lay them out again.
The roommate analogy is back in my head. We're just roomies with shared accounts. What's the point? There's no intimacy or bond to pull us back together, I just want to be elsewhere. Ugh. Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff?
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timedelay
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Age Range: 46-50
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Post by timedelay on Sept 5, 2019 16:08:19 GMT -5
In a word, yes.
I have, over the 30 years of my relationship, observed how the lack of intimacy makes for a very unstable foundation. We may spend all these years ostensibly working 'together' to achieve shared goals; creating a family, a secure environment for children, a united front, perhaps businesses, collaborating on projects (in my case a creative homesteading lifestyle) and yet all it takes to throw our equilibrium off the rails is, as in your example something 'small'. In the recent painfully honest conversations between my H and I this sense of "sand shifting beneath our feet" has been delved into a bit. I think it's a normal thing for couples to communicate openly before, during and immediately after sex. This seems to be the most optimal time for people to discuss issues of importance, in a relaxed and trusting way. These interactions build trust; we know our spouse loves/likes us. In relationships where opportunities for this kind of sharing and confiding are either very limited or non existent, what level of communication can exist? Life is busy for most of us. Kids interrupt constantly. So many demands are made on both individuals every day it seems to me that those times of close bonding through sexual connection have a vital role to play. They are vital to solidify a foundation, to reinforce a bond, to repair us when life perhaps does some damage. I'm sure there are people who have figured out how to have a strong marriage without this sexual bonding but for me, as a sexual woman married to an asexual man, the lack of intimacy had a direct impact on my ability to bounce back from the 'small things'.
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Post by baza on Sept 5, 2019 18:22:44 GMT -5
Back in the day, what Brother @tooyoungtobeold2 describes is something I could relate to.
In my ILIASM deal, the little individual rejections accrued up into a pretty substantial pile over the years.
But, I chose to stay in that situation (essentially a 'Financial Partnership') as I could - for the most part - handle it OK, pushing those rejective events into a festering pile in the corner.
The problem was - as time went on - a new rejective episode would occur .... and for me, the new bit of rejection would trigger me to recall all those old individual rejections from the past as well as the present rejection.
Like *todays* little rejection would hit me with the weight of *todays* rejection PLUS that festering pile of past rejections too.
Individually, the rejective episodes were not sufficient to prod me into action.
But the total of all the accrued rejections was ............ eventually.
It was an accumulation process, and took a long time to reach dealbreaker status.
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timedelay
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Post by timedelay on Sept 6, 2019 11:35:47 GMT -5
I woke up at 3am still ruminating on this one (thanks @tooyoungtobeold2 lol) baza described where I was for about 25 years; every rejection/criticism kept piling up in a corner of my psyche until I hit my limit. Four years ago I told my H that I just could not take any more. I think I've mentioned on other threads that at that time he was pretty upset and scared and swore things would change yada yada but he was not yet ready for complete honesty. Despite staying in the marriage something significant did take place back then. I let go of the huge burden of responsibility for the 'success' of my marriage. I had been carrying this sense of responsibility for my own happiness/contentment, for his happiness and for the general happiness of the entire friggin' world around us. The relief was immense. It was REAL. For the first time I found a new perspective on our entire relationship. Obviously the day to day did not change that much because I'm still here and still have not had sex but I have not fallen back into that awful mode of feeling like my H's moods were something I HAD to manage/placate/smooth over and that in itself has been a positive, not just for me but for our entire family. His state of mind, attitude, mood, frustrations, behaviour etc etc are ON HIM ALONE. He's a grown man; he is NOT my responsibility. Interestingly, he has been much kinder in the last few years than in the previous 25; go figure. The key for me was to stop accepting unkindness and to stop carrying the can for the other adult in our home. There are a few other things I want to explain but they might fit more under your question on therapy..see ya over there later ;-) |
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Post by flashjohn on Sept 12, 2019 10:21:29 GMT -5
So, I'm going along in life and think I've got my forced celibacy acceptance all lined up neatly where I can manage it. Great. Then, something goes awry in the marriage. It doesn't have to be big. Something small even like criticizing my Kebab (that isn't innuendo, she hasn't seen my "Kebab" in a long time) and then complaining about money. Now suddenly I'm in a huge funk over something so stupid. All of the component pieces of the marriage are now thrown off the game board and I have to figure out how to lay them out again. The roommate analogy is back in my head. We're just roomies with shared accounts. What's the point? There's no intimacy or bond to pull us back together, I just want to be elsewhere. Ugh. Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff? I know what you mean, my friend. I thought that I could handle living in celibacy myself with my ExRefuser as a roommate. But a real roommate relationship is different. When I was in college, I had a roommate. We each had our own bedrooms, we would come & go as we pleased, and if we wanted to fuck someone, we could bring her into our bedroom and lock the door. But when my ExRefuser was my roommate, I paid for everything, she kept all of her income in a separate account, she demanded that I account for all of my time, and she still wrote checks out of our "joint" account while she kept every penny she made. I hope your situation is not as bad as mine was. |
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Post by twotimesone on Sept 12, 2019 15:05:00 GMT -5
So, I'm going along in life and think I've got my forced celibacy acceptance all lined up neatly where I can manage it. Great. Then, something goes awry in the marriage. It doesn't have to be big. Something small even like criticizing my Kebab (that isn't innuendo, she hasn't seen my "Kebab" in a long time) and then complaining about money. Now suddenly I'm in a huge funk over something so stupid. All of the component pieces of the marriage are now thrown off the game board and I have to figure out how to lay them out again. The roommate analogy is back in my head. We're just roomies with shared accounts. What's the point? There's no intimacy or bond to pull us back together, I just want to be elsewhere. Ugh. Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff? I know what you mean, my friend. I thought that I could handle living in celibacy myself with my ExRefuser as a roommate. But a real roommate relationship is different. When I was in college, I had a roommate. We each had our own bedrooms, we would come & go as we pleased, and if we wanted to fuck someone, we could bring her into our bedroom and lock the door. But when my ExRefuser was my roommate, I paid for everything, she kept all of her income in a separate account, she demanded that I account for all of my time, and she still wrote checks out of our "joint" account while she kept every penny she made. I hope your situation is not as bad as mine was. You wouldn't call each other roommates when each person have their own bedrooms... Housemates would be more of an appropriate word. |
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Post by flashjohn on Sept 12, 2019 15:07:52 GMT -5
I know what you mean, my friend. I thought that I could handle living in celibacy myself with my ExRefuser as a roommate. But a real roommate relationship is different. When I was in college, I had a roommate. We each had our own bedrooms, we would come & go as we pleased, and if we wanted to fuck someone, we could bring her into our bedroom and lock the door. But when my ExRefuser was my roommate, I paid for everything, she kept all of her income in a separate account, she demanded that I account for all of my time, and she still wrote checks out of our "joint" account while she kept every penny she made. I hope your situation is not as bad as mine was. You wouldn't call each other roommates when each person have their own bedrooms... Housemates would be more of an appropriate word. It is a general term for anyone who is sharing space. If you want to be precise, you would have to specify the type of dwelling, such as apartment-mates, duplex-mates, condominium-mates, etc. So unless you are dealing with a contract or scientific situation, a general term will suffice. |
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sunnysean
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Post by sunnysean on Sept 18, 2019 13:13:16 GMT -5
Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff? I am positive that I tell myself this subconsciously. We we did have sex the next day or two seemed easier. If she said something a little mean, it didn't sting as much. She is not a mean person outside withholding intimacy. I'm just saying little things would roll off easily. Now it's changed. If we have sex, and it's been a better year than last year, January 26th, April 20th, and July 13th. I get the after sex blues so bad that the little things feel amplified. But I still say that having more regular sex would truly help with the small stuff. |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 18, 2019 13:52:43 GMT -5
I find that low frequency is the worst of options, but that probably also depends on whether it’s good sex. Bad, in my case.
Either way, intermittent reinforcement serves to keep hope alive that maybe something can change, while reminding you how bad things still are. It renews the frustration, anger, and sadness.
Hell yes, frequent intimacy spackles over a whole crapload of petty problems. When you’re having good intimacy, you will absolutely give your spouse the benefit of the doubt when crap happens. Quite the opposite when you’re frustrated.
Then there is abstinence. It sucks, but it sucks less than intermittent intimacy that should be frequent. With abstinence, there is no false premise... you may be business partners, co-parents, and roommates, but the façade of being lovers is gone. You may not be happy with where things stand, but it’s no longer a grey area.
For me, W knows there’s a gap, but she doesn’t seem to miss it, and we actually get along a whole lot better because the frustration isn’t being refreshed regularly.
You’re right @tooyoungtobeold2 that, lacking that emotional bond, it’s still easier for life’s friction to grate a lot more; but most of all when the intimacy is intermittent.
But that’s just one guy’s opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 11:44:39 GMT -5
I find that low frequency is the worst of options, but that probably also depends on whether it’s good sex. Bad, in my case. Either way, intermittent reinforcement serves to keep hope alive that maybe something can change, while reminding you how bad things still are. It renews the frustration, anger, and sadness. Hell yes, frequent intimacy spackles over a whole crapload of petty problems. When you’re having good intimacy, you will absolutely give your spouse the benefit of the doubt when crap happens. Quite the opposite when you’re frustrated. Then there is abstinence. It sucks, but it sucks less than intermittent intimacy that should be frequent. With abstinence, there is no false premise... you may be business partners, co-parents, and roommates, but the façade of being lovers is gone. You may not be happy with where things stand, but it’s no longer a grey area. For me, W knows there’s a gap, but she doesn’t seem to miss it, and we actually get along a whole lot better because the frustration isn’t being refreshed regularly. You’re right @tooyoungtobeold2 that, lacking that emotional bond, it’s still easier for life’s friction to grate a lot more; but most of all when the intimacy is intermittent. But that’s just one guy’s opinion. I completely agree with you that abstinence is a better option than infrequent/bad intimacy but for me it's created "a gap" as you put it. That gap isn't filled with friction any longer but it is a vacuum. That nothingness is new and I haven't processed that. The distance was a relief to infrequent/bad intimacy but it's becoming its own thing. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 19, 2019 12:22:33 GMT -5
I think drycreek has hit on something. The abstinence/nothingness in between acts of intimacy. This is what made it so difficult for me. Because it just led to higher and higher levels of frustration. The "gap" was something I just couldn't find a bridge for. And it lead to me repeatedly attempting to initiate, which led to her retorts that "sex was all I thought about". I hope you(tooyoungtobeold) have better success than I did when it comes to bridging the gap.
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Post by solodriver on Sept 22, 2019 0:08:55 GMT -5
I know, for me, that if I had an outsource partner, my attitude and mood at home would be totally different. I think I would be more tolerant, less stressed and happier knowing that I was with someone who wanted to be with me. And it would help me stay focused on the goal of my exit. |
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Post by solodriver on Sept 22, 2019 0:26:24 GMT -5
Back in the day, what Brother @tooyoungtobeold2 describes is something I could relate to. In my ILIASM deal, the little individual rejections accrued up into a pretty substantial pile over the years. But, I chose to stay in that situation (essentially a 'Financial Partnership') as I could - for the most part - handle it OK, pushing those rejective events into a festering pile in the corner. The problem was - as time went on - a new rejective episode would occur .... and for me, the new bit of rejection would trigger me to recall all those old individual rejections from the past as well as the present rejection. Like *todays* little rejection would hit me with the weight of *todays* rejection PLUS that festering pile of past rejections too. Individually, the rejective episodes were not sufficient to prod me into action. But the total of all the accrued rejections was ............ eventually. It was an accumulation process, and took a long time to reach dealbreaker status. That's a great description baza. I feel like that's what happened to me. it took 20 years to finally reach deal breaker status for me. |
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Post by solodriver on Sept 22, 2019 0:48:21 GMT -5
I let go of the huge burden of responsibility for the 'success' of my marriage. I had been carrying this sense of responsibility for my own happiness/contentment, for his happiness and for the general happiness of the entire friggin' world around us. The relief was immense. It was REAL. For the first time I found a new perspective on our entire relationship. Obviously the day to day did not change that much because I'm still here and still have not had sex but I have not fallen back into that awful mode of feeling like my H's moods were something I HAD to manage/placate/smooth over and that in itself has been a positive, not just for me but for our entire family. His state of mind, attitude, mood, frustrations, behaviour etc etc are ON HIM ALONE. He's a grown man; he is NOT my responsibility. Interestingly, he has been much kinder in the last few years than in the previous 25; go figure. The key for me was to stop accepting unkindness and to stop carrying the can for the other adult in our home. This is EXACTLY where I am right now. When I went into "roommate" mode and let go, it helped tremendously and the mood around the house and with other family members about the situation has improved. Now I just focus on me and my exit plan. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Sept 30, 2019 10:45:43 GMT -5
So, I'm going along in life and think I've got my forced celibacy acceptance all lined up neatly where I can manage it. Great. Then, something goes awry in the marriage. It doesn't have to be big. Something small even like criticizing my Kebab (that isn't innuendo, she hasn't seen my "Kebab" in a long time) and then complaining about money. Now suddenly I'm in a huge funk over something so stupid. All of the component pieces of the marriage are now thrown off the game board and I have to figure out how to lay them out again. The roommate analogy is back in my head. We're just roomies with shared accounts. What's the point? There's no intimacy or bond to pull us back together, I just want to be elsewhere. Ugh. Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff? Chosen celibacy. Chosen. You choose to stay married to someone who doesn't want you. Your partner chooses to stay married to someone they don't want. Either way - it's a difficult consequence, but hopefully provides the benefit you each want. There are powerful incentives to stay and devastating consequences to leaving. I think it's fair to say, you are presented with a scenario that forces a choice for each of you (staying is as much a choice as leaving). But the celibacy certainly isn't forced. It's simply one of the several options from which you choose and weigh vs alternatives that seem less attractive. Given that I was stayer, I'd totally agree that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff. Not because of the intimacy per se, but rather because the state of intimacy is seen as the result of the regard in which you are held. In a celibate marriage, the upstream contempt (resulting in the downstream celibacy) is the air your breath. It's invisible but omnipresent - so that when the suitability of your kebab is judged, or the mess in a kitchen, this minor criticism directs your attention to the colossus standing in the middle of your relationship. The kebab is the spark - but your fight and your funk isn't about the kebab. When I was committed to staying, I found I was able to keep busy in this cycle of building up and progress, which would get obliterated from time to time by something seemingly unworthy. My partner remarked on the same and together we defined the pattern as 3 steps forward, two steps back, such that we were able to carry on a feeling that we were building or repairing or enduring. As long as we felt busy in this way - we were able to stretch a good few years out of it. |
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