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Post by Handy on Sept 30, 2019 12:07:44 GMT -5
In a celibate marriage, the upstream contempt (resulting in the downstream celibacy) is the air your breath. It's invisible but omnipresent
Feeling connected and loved results in people living longer and better lives as much as living a healthy lifestyle (no tobacco, limited alcohol, exercising and a healthy diet). Stress does the opposite. It creates medical problems.
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visexual
New Member
Married 47+ years to a good gal. On our 40th anniversary we had intercourse for the last time.
Posts: 6
Age Range: 70+
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Post by visexual on Oct 15, 2019 3:44:49 GMT -5
I sometimes think that I'd be better off just not thinking about it at all. But I do have so many wonderful sexual memories that I'd just hate to give them up. It's a catch 22.
And the devil in me enjoys bringing things up that I'm thinking make my wife a little, tiny, bit uncomfortable.
Fantasy Fest in Key West is just a week away and I mentioned to her, just yesterday, about it and how much fun we had at that festival in '99. And I recalled two sexual situations that we both thought, at the time, was the most fun of the trip. She said she didn't remember those and only remembered the funny, vanilla, things we saw or experienced.
She not only isn't interested in having sex anymore, she doesn't even want to remember the sex she had. Sad..., or should that be written, #sad?
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Post by solodriver on Oct 16, 2019 23:03:57 GMT -5
She not only isn't interested in having sex anymore, she doesn't even want to remember the sex she had. Sad..., or should that be written, #sad? That's EXACTLY what my refuser has done. It's like we never had a sex life.
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Post by njsojourner on Jul 5, 2020 7:50:46 GMT -5
I have previously shared that my wife and I have a pretty good marriage except for the lack of sex. We generally get along but the truth is i am a happier person since I outsourced —she knows I am happier and kinder, less irritable. I think she thinks I just put aside my whining about lack of sex from years ago and like her decided it wasn’t important any more. Hah! We’ve been rewatching the Sopranos and I couldn’t help thinking those guys had one thing right—their lady friends on the side made for happier husbands and many happier wives who were relieved of the terrible burden of having to put up with having sex with their husbands. Several years into my outsourcing and frankly tho fun it takes work to keep everything discreet it’s still worth it to me. My therapist still tries to get me to come clean with my wife as he points out it’s unethical but I remind him I am not paying him for moral guidance. It’s always easy to advise people what to do when they have no idea what someone is living with or through. Outsourcing is not for everyone and I would never suggest to someone it’s the only or best way to handle a SM. But for some, it can and does work until it doesn’t.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 5, 2020 10:57:57 GMT -5
njsojourner "pretty good" sounds pretty half assed, frankly. What happens when the wheels come off your current arrangement?
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Post by njsojourner on Jul 5, 2020 22:03:17 GMT -5
Well at that point I will,accept my fate. But I will have had a few years of absolute bliss. Honestly, as good as my hand is it’s not as good as real sex I have with my “friends.” I have prepared as best I can for the train wreck when it comes...I have consulted a lawyer and that’s all I can do at this point.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 6, 2020 1:30:39 GMT -5
Well at that point I will,accept my fate. But I will have had a few years of absolute bliss. Honestly, as good as my hand is it’s not as good as real sex I have with my “friends.” I have prepared as best I can for the train wreck when it comes...I have consulted a lawyer and that’s all I can do at this point. So you're hanging on to the marriage hoping to outsource, basically, until someone dies? In other words,you have no interest in leaving your marriage in order to marry again? What if your wife finds out and divorces you? Would you regret the years of working to keep your AP arrangements secret and possibly having a different, more fulfilling relationship/marriage with someone else? I ask because I see you're in the same age range I am, and I'm realizing that life doesn't last forever. Part of me wants to start over in a new marriage, but I wonder how realistic that is. Another part of me is resigned to not finding another life partner at my age, as I think men don't want to divorce and give up their money, which is understandable. A third part of me doesn't really want to leave my husband, either, as he's important to me and we've been through a lot together. I sometimes think I could be pretty happy just seeing an AP now and then. But how realistic is that? If I like someone enough to have sex, I'll probably want to be with them quite often, and that could pose a problem. Have you not found that to be an issue in your case? |
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Post by njsojourner on Jul 8, 2020 16:46:21 GMT -5
I certainly can see how the push and pull you describe can be an issue and hard to manage or reconcile. If I end up divorced I will not remarry. I probably couldn’t afford to if I get divorced! My wife and I have a pretty damn good life except for the lack of sex for me, though it clearly doesn’t bother her at all. I have been surprised to find how many women my wife’s age (she’s two years younger than me) still have a powerful sex drive. Why I lost that lottery I don’t know! As for wanting to be with someone more regularly, I am fortunate (pre-COVID) to have had the opportunity to have sex a few times a week if I wanted to with my Playmates since my job gives me great flexibility. I have picked my playmates carefully to avoid or minimize the likelihood that they would want something more permanent. I have found a fair number of women who want what I want —no strings entertainment. Some are friends and we keep in touch even after our affairs have stopped. I am aware that my choice is morally wrong by most peoples’ standards. But I am way past worrying about that. To put it crassly, I have a need that is not satisfied in my marriage so my solution is to outsource and it is not reconcilable within the traditional rules of marriage but I don’t care.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jul 8, 2020 19:11:39 GMT -5
Well at that point I will,accept my fate. But I will have had a few years of absolute bliss. Honestly, as good as my hand is it’s not as good as real sex I have with my “friends.” I have prepared as best I can for the train wreck when it comes...I have consulted a lawyer and that’s all I can do at this point. I ask because I see you're in the same age range I am, and I'm realizing that life doesn't last forever. Part of me wants to start over in a new marriage, but I wonder how realistic that is. Another part of me is resigned to not finding another life partner at my age, as I think men don't want to divorce and give up their money, which is understandable.A third part of me doesn't really want to leave my husband, either, as he's important to me and we've been through a lot together. I sometimes think I could be pretty happy just seeing an AP now and then. But how realistic is that? If I like someone enough to have sex, I'll probably want to be with them quite often, and that could pose a problem. Have you not found that to be an issue in your case? If we are to generalize about men not divorcing because it would result in the loss of money, I think it would be fair to say that a sizable % of women would not leave a SM for the same reason. You list other reasons that are equally valid for you. And you speculate on what may of may not work for you should some other sexual opportunity present its self for you. My experience thus far after 6yrs is that women are pretty good at compartmentalizing the act of sex and separating it from the idea of marriage. I have only dated 1 woman who had a SM. It was probably the best relationship I have had so far. We both enjoyed our time together and marriage never came up. But this is just 1 man's experience. |
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Post by bozodeclowne on Jul 9, 2020 12:15:08 GMT -5
So, I'm going along in life and think I've got my forced celibacy acceptance all lined up neatly where I can manage it. Great. Then, something goes awry in the marriage. It doesn't have to be big. Something small even like criticizing my Kebab (that isn't innuendo, she hasn't seen my "Kebab" in a long time) and then complaining about money. Now suddenly I'm in a huge funk over something so stupid. All of the component pieces of the marriage are now thrown off the game board and I have to figure out how to lay them out again. The roommate analogy is back in my head. We're just roomies with shared accounts. What's the point? There's no intimacy or bond to pull us back together, I just want to be elsewhere. Ugh. Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff? I'm positive were we having sex, our marriage would be stronger. I've mellowed a lot over the years and am probably easier to live with now for many reasons. The fact that I no longer pursue is likely just another one of those reasons to my wife. She seems to think we'll keep up the status quo and ride off into the sunset together. ~TimeDelay and ~baza really nailed it. The built up pile of resentment was always there and I'd feel myself getting more and more aggravated. Funny thing - for years if my wife used a double entendre or a "that's what she said" type one-liner at a party, I'd find myself seething. Now there is nothing more than a small desire to make a snide comment, and that passes quickly. For me, the key was to be honest with myself about the reality of our marriage, and with that knowledge decide what I was willing to do about it. That sort of thing is easier if you are married to a terrible person, but most of us have partners that we see as otherwise decent. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 9, 2020 18:44:06 GMT -5
A third part of me doesn't really want to leave my husband, either, as he's important to me and we've been through a lot together. I sometimes think I could be pretty happy just seeing an AP now and then. But how realistic is that? If I like someone enough to have sex, I'll probably want to be with them quite often, and that could pose a problem. Have you not found that to be an issue in your case? If we are to generalize about men not divorcing because it would result in the loss of money, I think it would be fair to say that a sizable % of women would not leave a SM for the same reason. You list other reasons that are equally valid for you. And you speculate on what may of may not work for you should some other sexual opportunity present its self for you. My experience thus far after 6yrs is that women are pretty good at compartmentalizing the act of sex and separating it from the idea of marriage. I have only dated 1 woman who had a SM. It was probably the best relationship I have had so far. We both enjoyed our time together and marriage never came up. But this is just 1 man's experience. Encouraging. When I sought dates through OKcupid, I'd been choosing only married women. I figured they, like me,would have checked off those boxes of parenting kids, investing, home repairs, vacations, errands, and the mundane nonsense that is platonic married life. Sounds like I may have been right if my dates seemed to match your one verified example. Stories of ILIASM members tend to blend so I don't recall how satisfactory the other elements of @saaranista 's life are. She ponders a second life partner, but given her willingness to stay put, she may have enough to go on if there were just a little something extra to fulfill life. Tooyoungtobeold is keeping it secret. Others ask their refusers and get, shocker...refused. I told the Mrs. I was done being celibate and started dating the next year. If a refuser leaves you because you're assuming normal, healthy life activity that nearly everyone does regularly, I just don't see the fallout as having much to do with anything wrong the refused is doing. My wife had the power to fix things and wouldn't. It seems her therapist may have agreed because we're still on that reset from December of 2019. I say: Don't ask. Don't hide. Just do. Not mean. Merely firm. Physical intimacy is something normal, healthy people want. So much so, it may qualify as need. People who don't want it, need not concern themselves with the decisions of those who do. It works for nosey neighbors, clergy, and refusers. I want intimate companionship so my dating started platonically. That's where it stopped when my wife stepped in, and stepped up. My refusal to be ashamed made shame her burden, perhaps. Speculating, I wondered if it occurred to her how she'd explain why I left. If any friends, relatives, or loved ones asked me, "How could you?  !!"! What would their reaction to honesty be? What refuser wants to face that? I got some glimpse of that. Shortly after I began dating, my sister in law chastised my wife "Don't be nice to him!" (She'd been a bit sympathetic that she'd left me with no intimacy and was being nice out of guilt.) But the sister in law remained cordial. I think the truth slipped out and I didn't seem like such a villain anymore. I had caught wind that my sister in law's husband wasn't all that attentive and she may have been a bit chagrined to hear she was tearing me a new one for starting to follow through on thoughts that occurred to her more than once. |
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Post by njsojourner on Jul 9, 2020 20:35:47 GMT -5
There is clearly no one solution for everyone in a SM. Each person's comfort level with their situation is different and their way of coping or changing their situation is different. I have a very close friend (male) who is in a SM too. He can't conceive of leaving his wife or outsourcing. He suffers in silence. For him, the pain, fear or whatever of changing his situation is greater than the perceived gain. I don't get it but it is what he wants. So hge goes on, without sex, and appears ok with that situation. As I have stated before, for me, a life without sex is no life at all. I don't sleep around with just anyone but when I do, I feel alive again and free. I will always remain sad that I can't experience these feelings with my wife. But as my father used to say, you can;'t always have what you want so make the best of it." Therefore, I always remain available to anyone looking for a good time as long as they are good people. ;-)
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Post by worksforme2 on Jul 9, 2020 22:04:26 GMT -5
@ mirrorchid,....I tried to make a similar move with my X. After our umteenth "talk" I stated I would not stay in a SM. She did a quick turn around and our sex life resumed for about 3 months. Then suddenly it stopped once more. That was it for me. I took off my ring and began distancing myself from her. And she decided a divorce was preferable to enduring sex with me. One can never know precisely how playing one's hold card will end. For my marriage it ended in divorce. Yours seems to be on a far better track. I hope it continues for you.
How individuals deal with their unique situations always comes back to the 3 options. Stay and be celibate, stay and outsource, or part ways with one's refuser. At times I loose patience as I read the posts of those who choose to stay and be celibate, but after a brief repose I accept that it is their choice and they must live with it, just as I have to live with the choice I made.
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Post by jamesbonding on Jul 10, 2020 2:05:18 GMT -5
Speculating, I wondered if it occurred to her how she'd explain why I left. If any friends, relatives, or loved ones asked me, "How could you? !!"! What would their reaction to honesty be? What refuser wants to face that? I have an example of that from my experience. To cut a very long story short, after seven years of complete sexlessness, I told my wife and family that I was going to visit a woman in another state, and a week later I did so. To avoid last-minute drama, I didn't say exactly when I would be leaving, just "next week." Then early one morning I vanished from the house and went on my way.
When I came back, my wife was in a state of shock. Apparently she didn't believe that I'd actually follow through. At some point in the following months she told me that she had told all the neighbors on our street about my disappearance, probably to try to make me feel embarrassed. I was skeptical that she would do that and suffer such a loss of face. She also said that she told some of her friends about what had happened, which I somewhat believed. One day, one of her close friends that my wife often visited called, wanting to talk to my wife. My wife wasn't there at that time. Before she hung up, I asked, "Has my wife been talking with you about our situation?" "Yes." "Has she said exactly what's been bothering her?" "She hasn't been very specific." Aha! My wife hasn't been spilling the beans as much as she said to me. "Well, I visited another woman." Her friends voice changed from a normal conversational tone, to one of shock and anger. "What?! Why would you visit another woman?!" "Because my wife hasn't slept with me for seven years!" Her friends voice changed completely, again. "Oh" was all she said, but it was in a lower, softer tone, which I interpreted to mean that she now understood, and didn't think what I did was unreasonable, and that maybe she agreed that it's not cool to not sleep with your spouse for seven years. And that she hadn't known before that moment what was going on with us, because my wife hadn't told her!
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 10, 2020 5:50:01 GMT -5
@ mirrorchid,....I tried to make a similar move with my X. After our umteenth "talk" I stated I would not stay in a SM. She did a quick turn around and our sex life resumed for about 3 months. Then suddenly it stopped once more. That was it for me. I took off my ring and began distancing myself from her. And she decided a divorce was preferable to enduring sex with me. One can never know precisely how playing one's hold card will end. For my marriage it ended in divorce. Yours seems to be on a far better track. I hope it continues for you. How individuals deal with their unique situations always comes back to the 3 options. Stay and be celibate, stay and outsource, or part ways with one's refuser. ... Thanks for the well wishes. The battlefield of hope is littered with bodies, though. 7 months is a good run, but she is showing signs of tapering. Stay tuned. Perhaps I too will feel forced to put my finger in the grenade ring. Refusers seem okay with the "til death do we part thing for their preference (celibacy) but not for ours. Our preference can be indulged temporarily. Perhaps I'll ask. "Would you like some celibacy? How long? Shall we reset for three months then resume sex?" We know that's absurd, yet the reverse is almost a default assumption in polite society. We're taking wedding vows back, baby. They never belonged to refusers in the first place. Refusers are not marriage material and that message needs to get out. Don't like sex? Don't marry. Full stop. Be a single parent and connect with another single parent to share rent. Same result without the torture. You want the stability, but that is fully dependent on the sex. You don't get to edit the contract after you sign it. A permanent legal union of finances and child care without the sex can surely be created, but don't call it "marriage". That name is taken. The ILIASM membership does have the mantra down pretty well with the three options, but come to think of it, it's really the two options of stay and leave with subcategorization. 1. Stay a. Resigned to celibacy A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. b. Continued effort to change the dynamic. A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. c. Outsource i. Hidden ("Cheating") A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. ii. Informed (Refuser told it's going to happen. Refuser does not consent. [with varying degrees of resistance]) A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. iii. Consensual 1. Refuser suggests and refused accepts. A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. 2. Refused requests and refuser accepts A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. 3. Refuser is informed, objects, but later accepts) A. Permanently B. With a deadline to leave or switch "Stay" dispositions. 2. Leave. (Physically, and/or legally) A. NOW B. ASAPractical (consult legal help, set aside resources, etc.) C. With deadline in mind to begin prep or await a last straw to trigger option A. Come to think of it, leave options B and C are forms of staying. Pretty much if you aren't staying for at least a little while, you are not ILIASM and never showed up here. |
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!!"! What would their reaction to honesty be? What refuser wants to face that?
