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Post by jamesbonding on Jul 11, 2020 1:49:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the well wishes. The battlefield of hope is littered with bodies, though. 7 months is a good run, but she is showing signs of tapering. Stay tuned. Perhaps I too will feel forced to put my finger in the grenade ring. I wonder if it would help if you said, in a non-confrontational, non-accusatory way, something like "It seems like we haven't had sex as often in the last month as in previous months. Is there some reason for that?"
Have you tried establishing a schedule for sex? Having a schedule can benefit both sides in a mismatched libidos situation. The LL person doesn't have to endure being constantly badgered for sex. And the HL person has some assurance that sex will occur at some specific future time without having to ask and risk another rejection.
I have long wanted to have a schedule, but have had difficulty bringing up the subject. Then, a few years ago, to my great surprise and delight, my wife spontaneously proposed a schedule of once every two days. I think that was too much for her, so that schedule didn't last long.
Then, maybe a year ago, she spontaneously proposed another schedule - every Wednesday and Sunday morning. That schedule seems to be more realistic for her. We've been following that schedule rather loosely. We usually have sex on Sunday, or it may get postponed to Monday or Tuesday. If it gets postponed, Wednesday is likely to be postponed as well, or cancelled. and if Wednesday is postponed to Friday, Sunday may get postponed or cancelled. So we've ended up having sex once or twice a week for the last year. Not ideal from my perspective, but so far mostly bearable.
It's pretty clear that my wife doesn't enjoy having sex with me, but does it because she wants to keep the marriage together. In that sense, I suppose I could say that I'm in the middle of a reset, too. It's just that my reset has lasted ten years!
I think that's funny, but I suspect most refusers would not understand the humor. |
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Post by csl on Jul 11, 2020 8:36:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the well wishes. The battlefield of hope is littered with bodies, though. 7 months is a good run, but she is showing signs of tapering. Stay tuned. Perhaps I too will feel forced to put my finger in the grenade ring. I wonder if it would help if you said, in a non-confrontational, non-accusatory way, something like "It seems like we haven't had sex as often in the last month as in previous months. Is there some reason for that?"
Have you tried establishing a schedule for sex? Having a schedule can benefit both sides in a mismatched libidos situation. The LL person doesn't have to endure being constantly badgered for sex. And the HL person has some assurance that sex will occur at some specific future time without having to ask and risk another rejection.
I have long wanted to have a schedule, but have had difficulty bringing up the subject. Then, a few years ago, to my great surprise and delight, my wife spontaneously proposed a schedule of once every two days. I think that was too much for her, so that schedule didn't last long.
Then, maybe a year ago, she spontaneously proposed another schedule - every Wednesday and Sunday morning. That schedule seems to be more realistic for her. We've been following that schedule rather loosely. We usually have sex on Sunday, or it may get postponed to Monday or Tuesday. If it gets postponed, Wednesday is likely to be postponed as well, or cancelled. and if Wednesday is postponed to Friday, Sunday may get postponed or cancelled. So we've ended up having sex once or twice a week for the last year. Not ideal from my perspective, but so far mostly bearable.
It's pretty clear that my wife doesn't enjoy having sex with me, but does it because she wants to keep the marriage together. In that sense, I suppose I could say that I'm in the middle of a reset, too. It's just that my reset has lasted ten years!
I think that's funny, but I suspect most refusers would not understand the humor. I wrote about using a schedule in this post: curmudgeonlylibrarian.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/refused-a-new-tool-to-help-part-2/And I discussed the "but it's not spontaneous" canard, as well. |
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Post by notdeadyet on Jul 12, 2020 10:03:03 GMT -5
So, I'm going along in life and think I've got my forced celibacy acceptance all lined up neatly where I can manage it. Great. Then, something goes awry in the marriage. It doesn't have to be big. Something small even like criticizing my Kebab (that isn't innuendo, she hasn't seen my "Kebab" in a long time) and then complaining about money. Now suddenly I'm in a huge funk over something so stupid. All of the component pieces of the marriage are now thrown off the game board and I have to figure out how to lay them out again. The roommate analogy is back in my head. We're just roomies with shared accounts. What's the point? There's no intimacy or bond to pull us back together, I just want to be elsewhere. Ugh. Do we, the stayers, believe that having an intimate life would help weather the small stuff? |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 13, 2020 6:09:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the well wishes. The battlefield of hope is littered with bodies, though. 7 months is a good run, but she is showing signs of tapering. Stay tuned. Perhaps I too will feel forced to put my finger in the grenade ring. I wonder if it would help if you said, in a non-confrontational, non-accusatory way, something like "It seems like we haven't had sex as often in the last month as in previous months. Is there some reason for that?"
Have you tried establishing a schedule for sex? Having a schedule can benefit both sides in a mismatched libidos situation. The LL person doesn't have to endure being constantly badgered for sex. And the HL person has some assurance that sex will occur at some specific future time without having to ask and risk another rejection.
I have long wanted to have a schedule, but have had difficulty bringing up the subject. Then, a few years ago, to my great surprise and delight, my wife spontaneously proposed a schedule of once every two days. I think that was too much for her, so that schedule didn't last long.
Then, maybe a year ago, she spontaneously proposed another schedule - every Wednesday and Sunday morning. That schedule seems to be more realistic for her. We've been following that schedule rather loosely. We usually have sex on Sunday, or it may get postponed to Monday or Tuesday. If it gets postponed, Wednesday is likely to be postponed as well, or cancelled. and if Wednesday is postponed to Friday, Sunday may get postponed or cancelled. So we've ended up having sex once or twice a week for the last year. Not ideal from my perspective, but so far mostly bearable.
It's pretty clear that my wife doesn't enjoy having sex with me, but does it because she wants to keep the marriage together. In that sense, I suppose I could say that I'm in the middle of a reset, too. It's just that my reset has lasted ten years!
I think that's funny, but I suspect most refusers would not understand the humor. I have it better and worse than you. You are getting intimacy three to six times as often as I am, but we have no schedule. She initiates. The tapering is gradual. I'm watching and waiting. I'd set three weeks as my limit. AT three weeks, I schedule a platonic date with Kathy. I'm meaning to see her one last time to do that photo shoot to spruce up her dowdy dating profile since I may not date her for years to come since I truly appreciate my wife's earnest efforts and they may go the distance. (ten years seems wildly optimistic, but good to hear of your precedent.) I may have done this earlier, even without the three week lag, but COVID limits how many venues we could shoot. Not inquiring about the diminishing frequency keeps my wife's sexuality under her control, instead of relegated to a calendar. She can retain a sense of generosity. Some attention paid to our relationship in physical terms is required which may have good or bad outcomes, but the possibility of her seeing our marital love as something to be tended and cared for strikes me as strongly beneficial if she chooses to value it. I have some indication that she is mindful of time passing. This is gratifying because it's showing concern for me. My leaving timing to her is an absence of pressure which refusers say they want and often abuse. If she's mindful of the limits of my patience, we both win. Unless the awareness of my limits causes resentment. Time will reveal more. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 13, 2020 12:31:39 GMT -5
Sexual frequency aside, what about the balance of the physical / intimate relationship? The casual touching, hugging, snuggling, and kissing? Do you have to schedule these things too?
I struggle with the idea of having an intimate relationship that didn’t include those things. But I would also struggle with one that includes those things but can’t organically progress to sex.
I guess I view scheduling sex as a good therapy aid to reshape intimacy as a priority. I just question if it’s good long-term, or if it relegates sex to “that thing we do on Sunday mornings”.
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Post by njsojourner on Jul 23, 2020 14:52:01 GMT -5
I think I am half lucky in my sexless marriage—we don’t have many disagreements or arguments about much of anything. We can and do spend most nights together watching TV or reading. Pleasant enough life EXCEPT there is no physical closeness, a hug once in a blue moon, no intimacy and no sex. My therapist has said to be an ethical human being I have to just resign myself to the situation (for the rest of my life) and focus on the positive, non-sexual relationship OR get out of the marriage to have sex. Early on this journey to a sexless life we tried making a schedule, date nights, etc. As that began to fade and the sex became rarer, I thought about it... What’s fucked up world that married people have to go to such lengths to fulfill their responsibilities to their partner. As I have explained to my therapist, it easy to say buck up and move on OR get divorced. But getting divorced is costly—big time for me financially and emotionally for her and my kids and grandkids. No hall pass for me. The inherent unfairness and cruelty of not been sexual with your spouse, not granting him/her permission to fulfill his/her needs elsewhere and realizing divorce is a very painful and unlikely option that keeps one’s spouse trapped is the ultimate power play.
I may sound angry but I am way past that. I have provided my wife with a great life—she wants for nothing material and she retired early while I am still slogging away—so I feel no guilt or remorse for outsourcing. It’s my way of coping and frankly I am happier and that means I am less angry at her and she is happy.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 23, 2020 17:41:31 GMT -5
njsojourner are you going to a Christian counselor or something who is guilting you about outsourcing? If so you might try a secular therapist. Although you say you're not angry, I think you ARE angry and I don't blame you. You're probably angry because you're not getting your needs met fully in that you "have" to hide from your moralistic, non reciprocal wife. I say give yourself permission to get them met whatever it takes to do that. Guilt is a useless emotion. My only caution would be that Outsourcing gets complicated. It's not that easy to do unless you just want to get laid and ghost the person. And you the risk of developing feelings for the person. Or vice verson. Maybe your therapist is cautioning you to keep that from happening. I don't know A final thought would be that while you say you're worried about losing money in a divorce, in reality you don't have control of a that money even if you stay married. Your wife still spends some of the money to meet her needs right? Are you happy about how she spends it? It's possible you might end up happier in a smaller house with your part of money completely under your own control.
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Post by Handy on Jul 23, 2020 17:55:14 GMT -5
NJ Sojourner
she wants for nothing material and she retired early while I am still slogging away—so I feel no guilt or remorse for outsourcing. It is good that you can keep the outsourcing going. I can imagine how much work it is for you. It might be a good idea to let your W's wants a bit more to her own effort. Don't get burnt out catering to so many people.
My W retired early, so I know how it feels to keep all of the plates spinning.
idiom
I'm not surprised he's so burnt out—he was keeping way too many plates spinning at the same time.
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Post by njsojourner on Jul 23, 2020 20:01:02 GMT -5
njsojourner are you going to a Christian counselor or something who is guilting you about outsourcing? If so you might try a secular therapist. Although you say you're not angry, I think you ARE angry and I don't blame you. You're probably angry because you're not getting your needs met fully in that you "have" to hide from your moralistic, non reciprocal wife. I say give yourself permission to get them met whatever it takes to do that. Guilt is a useless emotion. My only caution would be that Outsourcing gets complicated. It's not that easy to do unless you just want to get laid and ghost the person. And you the risk of developing feelings for the person. Or vice verson. Maybe your therapist is cautioning you to keep that from happening. I don't know A final thought would be that while you say you're worried about losing money in a divorce, in reality you don't have control of a that money even if you stay married. Your wife still spends some of the money to meet her needs right? Are you happy about how she spends it? It's possible you might end up happier in a smaller house with your part of money completely under your own control. ‘’’good points certainly. Outsourcing takes work but frankly so far less work than trying get my wife to want sex. I am fortunate i suppose that I do (or did pre-COVID) travel enough for business that my liaisons were easy to set up out of town. And no I don’t get attached though that is not to say I haven’t met some lady friends more than once but we agree it just sex and often dinner and sex. Sometimes just dinner depending on time. As for my therapist he is Catholic but I don’t think it religion — just his view tha honesty is always the best policy. As for my wife’s spending, she is not as bad as she could be and it’s all manageable but in a divorce she would get half of everything and frankly at this point I am not feeling good about that. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 26, 2020 15:23:27 GMT -5
njsojourner, our stories have some parallels in that there is no affection unless I originate it, and when I did I’d be charged with infractions that she imagined I *might* do. I gave up chasing her after a great many years because it served her needs but left me unfulfilled; I’ve found this is more authentic and less painful for me. She’s noticed but couldn’t be bothered to change. As for W’s retirement, who decided that? Was it genuinely mutual? Was it even discussed whether you might like to retire early instead? Is she bearing the expense of her own retirement, or is it only possible with your subsidy and employee benefits? Outsourcing is a decision you make for yourself. Just be aware that she has equal rights to pull the plug. And alimony is perhaps a bigger threat, depending on the wage gap with her demonstrated earning power. It can be a lot, it can last a loooong time, it’s not tax-deductible anymore, and you’ll likely be on the hook for her healthcare and a life insurance policy with her as the beneficiary. You may find yourself keeping only half your income for the rest of your career, as would be my case. So consider whether the possible consequences are worth it.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 26, 2020 20:32:07 GMT -5
If I may, DryCreek and njsojourner I'd like to reiterate that you DON'T have control of all the money now, unless you've locked up your funds in an account only one of you has access to! Sure, you haven't legally put a firewall between the assets if you're still married. Yes, you still live in the same big house. But is preserving the illusion that it's all your money-and avoiding having to move to a smaller house-worth the frustration of not having sex and tension about getting caught and and ethical discomfort you might have about staying married just to placate her, the kids or whomever?? For some the answer is yes. In my case, I haven't resolved fully resolved financial issues (I need to find a decent job so as not to screw over my husband if I left. His first wife did that already) or the sadness I would feel about leaving him alone and regret about leaving behind the one person who has been there for most of my adult life sufficiently to divorce. If I was to meet someone and an opportunity to remarry presented itself while I am still married, I would probably be more likely to walk away. But that is risky and unlikely to happen. But again, whether you stay in your marriage or leave, it's still NOT legally all YOUR money. She has an equal stake in the marital assets regardless of whether you stay or go. What you don't have for sure in your present situations is a fully satisfying sex life. At least not at home. |
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Post by jim44444 on Jul 27, 2020 8:32:37 GMT -5
If I may, DryCreek and njsojourner I'd like to reiterate that you DON'T have control of all the money now, unless you've locked up your funds in an account only one of you has access to! ..... But again, whether you stay in your marriage or leave, it's still NOT legally all YOUR money. She has an equal stake in the marital assets regardless of whether you stay or go. ... To be even more blunt, if you drop dead or become unable to handle your affairs then your spouse will have total control of "your money". Too reiterate the baza refrain, see a lawyer in your juridiction. Ask how you can protect your ass(ets). |
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Post by worksforme2 on Jul 27, 2020 9:48:45 GMT -5
My therapist has said to be an ethical human being I have to just resign myself to the situation (for the rest of my life) and focus on the positive, non-sexual relationship OR get out of the marriage to have sex. Early on this journey to a sexless life we tried making a schedule, date nights, etc. As that began to fade and the sex became rarer, I thought about it... The inherent unfairness and cruelty of not been sexual with your spouse, not granting him/her permission to fulfill his/her needs elsewhere and realizing divorce is a very painful and unlikely option that keeps one’s spouse trapped is the ultimate power play. I may sound angry but I am way past that. I have provided my wife with a great life—she wants for nothing material and she retired early while I am still slogging away—so I feel no guilt or remorse for outsourcing. It’s my way of coping and frankly I am happier and that means I am less angry at her and she is happy. I have spoken about "situational ethics" in other posts. I think your post clearly demonstrates what situational ethics can look like. You have provided a good life for your spouse and family materially and attempted to be there for her emotionally and physically, but she has declined. So the ethics of the situation allows for the fulfilling of your sexual and physical needs elsewhere. Consider most faiths/religions are clear on "thou shall not do murder". But who would say that it would not be far more ethical if early in their lives Joe Stalin, Pol Pot, Adolph Hitler and numerous other mass murders and practitioners of genocide had a bullet put into their head. Each of our situations must be weighted and measured on it's own merits and it's faults. Only then can one hopefully come to a decision on whether they are acting as an "ethical" human being. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 27, 2020 23:53:12 GMT -5
To clarify, my point was not about splitting the assets - that’s a given (though you can try to avoid it by maintaining the charade).
Rather, my point is that alimony can be terribly punitive; maybe even more expensive than the asset split because it can continue for 15-20 years.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 28, 2020 12:18:06 GMT -5
Yes, alimony. Can't these women get jobs? What is wrong with them? Or just stop spending money?
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