|
|
Post by lwoetin on Feb 18, 2017 14:23:00 GMT -5
I will just say something again that I have said before: Low-libido people often say, "Sex isn't that important," or "Sex isn't the most important part of marriage," etc. - and following on that: "So the higher libido person shouldn't mind not getting it. Very well. If sex is such a minor part of a marriage - low-libido people should not mind if their spouse gets it somewhere else. It's only sex, right? It's not that important, is it? And on the topic of name-calling: if only my refuser had desired me, I might have been willing to tolerate some name-calling. Hey, I could give it right back to him, and do better! Which is probably why he never called me names, ha ha. I never asserted "sex isn't that important." Never. I said, in my opinion, it's not THE most important aspect of a marriage. It's absolutely important. As is choosing a partner whom you want to share the 1,000 other important things in your life with. And no, I don't think of it as a minor part, so I don't think a spouse should get it somewhere else. I think a give/take should be reached. Duh. It's the only solution. That, or find someone more compatible; or go on living your miserable life with a person that you're not compatible with. I never said that it should be fair for a higher libido partner not to get sex. It's not "only" sex. Of course it's important. It's interesting that some folks stand by the thought that sex is "the way I bond with the person I love." Sex is "the way I express my love for my partner." Sex is "the way I feel connected to my loved one." "It's not the sex, it's the intimacy that I'm being denied." But on the other hand, if a person isn't getting the amount of sex they feel is required by their standards, it's quite all right to get it somewhere else. So sex with your spouse the "intimate, bonding, love-expressing, way-you-show-love" act. Then why is it you would want to get it somewhere else? You want sex, not because it's a physical urge, but because it's all these other emotional, loving things. Then you turn around and say, well, if you won't give it to me it should be okay to get it somewhere else? Is there no "bonding, expressing your love, connecting" with some random escort or FWB? Or is it just that you're having sex? If you're having sex with an escort or FWB, do you turn off the bonding, love-expressing? After all, who wants to bond with an escort? I'm not saying these emotions people claim are false. Absolutely people can feel that sex makes them feel that they're bonding, etc. I agree. But then to turn around and say, well if I can't get it with my spouse, I'll get it elsewhere, seems disingenuous. Or is it that when a person is having sex with a FWB or escort, they're just having sex, and not "bonding"? You can't honestly assert that if your refuser had desired you, you would tolerate name-calling. I mean, maybe you would. You would tolerate being called a bitch every day, as long as he wanted to have sex with you? So it's okay for him basically not to "like" you as long as he desired your body? Since you are the only LL spouse here, I appreciate your point of view. And you defend your points very well, they sound reasonable to me. My wife thinks similarly to you. She wants the sexless marriage that you have, but I won't give it to her. The difference from you is that she is capable of having sex but has expressed the desire for us to end it. Like you said, we need to have a give/take agreement. So far we have such a deal so we are both happy. (Although I feel at the moment on the short end having had no sex in quite a while.) I agree with you that having sex with another partner won't solve the marital problems. But the threat was helpful in making my wife realize how important sex was to our marriage and in finding an acceptable arrangement. I foresee in the future more trouble for us, of course. But we love each other deeply so I won't worry about it for now. It is good to have your experience, a data point that a marriage can survive 30 yrs, a large percentage of it sexless. Not sure how your husband manages, but he has. ( Does he like to do hands-on projects, handy around the house to occupy his time?) So it is possible. For 31 yrs, or more? Who knows. Best wishes for your marriage. We're at 20yrs, so hoping to get to 30 too. |
|
|
|
Post by cc on Feb 18, 2017 15:29:56 GMT -5
A key point was absolutely made. There's no intimacy. No hugs, kisses, gazes, or holding hands here. Random sexual encounters won't repair it. I once screamed at him, "I'll take a lover then!" He just looked worn out by the whole ordeal of talking about it and didn't tell me not to. I needed him to tell me no under no circumstances will you do such a thing. I needed it to matter. I'm not sexually starved only...I'm starved in many ways. Sigh.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 23:16:19 GMT -5
So since that was your original purpose, has it been fulfilled? Are you still in counseling? Have you gathered all the information you need? If you have, what is your purpose here now? I guess I should leave? Because they have been taught that they should wait for marriage for sex or that the most ethical place to have sex is in marriage. Also, most people will prefer having sex in a committed relationship. I think you misunderstood me. My point is that sex happens outside the bond of marriage, arguably, more than within the bonds of marriage. Meaning, I don't think the primary purpose for people to marry is because they want to have sex. My opinion and my hope would be that two people choose each other primarily because they desire a life with this one person, out of everyone else. Do you actually know anyone who had zero premarital sex? Even my Mormon friends were having sex before marriage. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are many many people who actually do wait for marriage before having sex. I don't think I know of any, though. I agree that most people prefer having sex in a committed relationship. But sex as the primary reason to get married? Have you ever asked someone why they were marrying a specific person and been told, "I'm marrying Jane because I want to have sex." But do you love her? Do you want to share your life with her? Did you pick her because she's a good person? Does she want the same things as you do? Do you have the same goals and values? It seems strange that while a person is up at the alter, committing to vows before God or whomever, and their family and friends, that in the back of their mind they are thinking, "blah blah blah, I get to have sex." "Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. " "I disagree with this. Frankly, if my spouse had been a sexual person, it probably would have made up for all of her other failings. " If two people are having consistent, mutually enjoyable sex, it deletes the fact that they treat you horribly? (not you, specifically) Of course if two people are amazingly compatible sexually, it's gonna be easier to overlook the fact that the house may not be as spotless as it could be. Or that your spouse never returns the back rub. But does even the most amazing sex allow someone to overlook being treated unkindly on a consistent basis? Or continually put down or demeaned? What the hell kind of life is that? Treat my like shit, as long as the sex is good? "So from this comment, I assume that the counseling has ended? Were all issues resolved then?" Yes. 18 months of first weekly then biweekly couples and individual counseling. Were all the issues resolved? We only had one issue. And yes. "Maybe there are other aspects of the relationship he values as much. Or he may believe that the pain he endures does not compare to the pain that might result to your children. Just a thought." I absolutely agree with the first part of your statement. He does value all the other aspects as much. Which is why we're still together, I would think. Pain to children is a completely valid reason to choose to avoid divorce. I agree. Two points though. My children are over 21 years old; still painful to experience your parents' divorce, but probably less so than when they are younger. And my parents were divorced. While I wouldn't choose it, it's not a death sentence for children. Both my brother and I have evolved into adults who have completed college, graduate school, haven't been divorced, never been arrested, still love both our parents, (and their spouses) don't kick dogs. LOL While I can't read my husband's mind, causing pain to our children by way of divorce was never brought up during counseling. "So does he agree with me? I think he must." He might. But unless you directly ask him, you won't know. That's a figure of speech. I think he must, other wise he would have divorced me. I told him in a hundred different ways, if he couldn't be happy staying with me, he should absolutely leave. I told him I would never utter an unkind word about him, whatever his decision was. We went over and over and over every possible nook and cranny of the how's, why's, what if's, this is how I feel, this is how I feel. He doesn't have any reason to feel roped in. I assume he said everything he wanted to say about the way he felt in 18 months of counseling and 30 years of relationship. Should I keep asking him daily if he's sure he wants to be with me? That's pathetic. He's a grown man. He certainly is capable of voicing an opinion or thought or emotion that he wants me to be aware of. Why do I keep coming here? Honestly, I log on every once in a while when I'm not in trial. I guess it sucks me in. On the bright side, it keeps me from shopping online. Apparently it seems I'm not welcome. 'I guess I should leave?" If you are trying to get people here to beg you to stay, that is very childish. You have attempted to evade the question by asking another question. So I will ask you again, why are you here? You disagree with many people here, you take offense at many things that are written, and you claim that your marriage is very fulfilling without sex. So I will ask you again, why are you here? The only answer you gave was that you are sucked in. That is nonresponsive. And if you are only coming here to avoid shopping online, there are literally millions of other sites you could frequent. Why don't you find one that supports your position? "Apparently it seems I'm not welcome." Again, you are using a very childish tactic to attempt to see if anyone will beg you to stay. I don't think anyone will. I guess I just find it sad that a grown woman would be so self-righteous about not liking sex, and even proclaim it with a sense of pride, as if it makes her better than lesser beings. I don't know what you do in court, but I doubt you are a lawyer because of your circuitous reasoning and attacking a person rather than his/her issues. You also refuse to answer any questions without attempting to turn the question around and appear as a victim. As to empathy, you are totally devoid of it. There are pages and pages written here of the pain that refused spouses have endured for years and sometimes more. You totally ignore every painful story here, while you loudly proclaim that your situation is worse than that of any refused spouse. I also find it very telling that you have not and will not tell your husband about this site. I believe that you think that he is not as satisfied with your relationship as you want to believe. Also, I believe that you think that he will find that there are lots of other people here in the same situation. I don't know if you have always been so self-righteous, but I honestly pity you. You may reply, but I am going to wash my hands of you. You believe that you have all the answers, and you don't care about what anyone else thinks. Your husband may stay with you, but I honestly believe that he still wishes that he had found someone who cared enough about his natural needs to keep trying and not simply give up. I would think that since you have 1000 good things about your marriage, you would at least keep trying to make some effort to satisfy him, however, I know you will not. |
|
|
|
Post by sunniedays on Feb 21, 2017 15:07:48 GMT -5
So since that was your original purpose, has it been fulfilled? Are you still in counseling? Have you gathered all the information you need? If you have, what is your purpose here now? I guess I should leave? Because they have been taught that they should wait for marriage for sex or that the most ethical place to have sex is in marriage. Also, most people will prefer having sex in a committed relationship. I think you misunderstood me. My point is that sex happens outside the bond of marriage, arguably, more than within the bonds of marriage. Meaning, I don't think the primary purpose for people to marry is because they want to have sex. My opinion and my hope would be that two people choose each other primarily because they desire a life with this one person, out of everyone else. Do you actually know anyone who had zero premarital sex? Even my Mormon friends were having sex before marriage. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are many many people who actually do wait for marriage before having sex. I don't think I know of any, though. I agree that most people prefer having sex in a committed relationship. But sex as the primary reason to get married? Have you ever asked someone why they were marrying a specific person and been told, "I'm marrying Jane because I want to have sex." But do you love her? Do you want to share your life with her? Did you pick her because she's a good person? Does she want the same things as you do? Do you have the same goals and values? It seems strange that while a person is up at the alter, committing to vows before God or whomever, and their family and friends, that in the back of their mind they are thinking, "blah blah blah, I get to have sex." "Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. " "I disagree with this. Frankly, if my spouse had been a sexual person, it probably would have made up for all of her other failings. " If two people are having consistent, mutually enjoyable sex, it deletes the fact that they treat you horribly? (not you, specifically) Of course if two people are amazingly compatible sexually, it's gonna be easier to overlook the fact that the house may not be as spotless as it could be. Or that your spouse never returns the back rub. But does even the most amazing sex allow someone to overlook being treated unkindly on a consistent basis? Or continually put down or demeaned? What the hell kind of life is that? Treat my like shit, as long as the sex is good? "So from this comment, I assume that the counseling has ended? Were all issues resolved then?" Yes. 18 months of first weekly then biweekly couples and individual counseling. Were all the issues resolved? We only had one issue. And yes. "Maybe there are other aspects of the relationship he values as much. Or he may believe that the pain he endures does not compare to the pain that might result to your children. Just a thought." I absolutely agree with the first part of your statement. He does value all the other aspects as much. Which is why we're still together, I would think. Pain to children is a completely valid reason to choose to avoid divorce. I agree. Two points though. My children are over 21 years old; still painful to experience your parents' divorce, but probably less so than when they are younger. And my parents were divorced. While I wouldn't choose it, it's not a death sentence for children. Both my brother and I have evolved into adults who have completed college, graduate school, haven't been divorced, never been arrested, still love both our parents, (and their spouses) don't kick dogs. LOL While I can't read my husband's mind, causing pain to our children by way of divorce was never brought up during counseling. "So does he agree with me? I think he must." He might. But unless you directly ask him, you won't know. That's a figure of speech. I think he must, other wise he would have divorced me. I told him in a hundred different ways, if he couldn't be happy staying with me, he should absolutely leave. I told him I would never utter an unkind word about him, whatever his decision was. We went over and over and over every possible nook and cranny of the how's, why's, what if's, this is how I feel, this is how I feel. He doesn't have any reason to feel roped in. I assume he said everything he wanted to say about the way he felt in 18 months of counseling and 30 years of relationship. Should I keep asking him daily if he's sure he wants to be with me? That's pathetic. He's a grown man. He certainly is capable of voicing an opinion or thought or emotion that he wants me to be aware of. Why do I keep coming here? Honestly, I log on every once in a while when I'm not in trial. I guess it sucks me in. On the bright side, it keeps me from shopping online. Apparently it seems I'm not welcome. 'I guess I should leave?" If you are trying to get people here to beg you to stay, that is very childish. You have attempted to evade the question by asking another question. So I will ask you again, why are you here? You disagree with many people here, you take offense at many things that are written, and you claim that your marriage is very fulfilling without sex. So I will ask you again, why are you here? The only answer you gave was that you are sucked in. That is nonresponsive. And if you are only coming here to avoid shopping online, there are literally millions of other sites you could frequent. Why don't you find one that supports your position? "Apparently it seems I'm not welcome." Again, you are using a very childish tactic to attempt to see if anyone will beg you to stay. I don't think anyone will. I guess I just find it sad that a grown woman would be so self-righteous about not liking sex, and even proclaim it with a sense of pride, as if it makes her better than lesser beings. I don't know what you do in court, but I doubt you are a lawyer because of your circuitous reasoning and attacking a person rather than his/her issues. You also refuse to answer any questions without attempting to turn the question around and appear as a victim. As to empathy, you are totally devoid of it. There are pages and pages written here of the pain that refused spouses have endured for years and sometimes more. You totally ignore every painful story here, while you loudly proclaim that your situation is worse than that of any refused spouse. I also find it very telling that you have not and will not tell your husband about this site. I believe that you think that he is not as satisfied with your relationship as you want to believe. Also, I believe that you think that he will find that there are lots of other people here in the same situation. I don't know if you have always been so self-righteous, but I honestly pity you. You may reply, but I am going to wash my hands of you. You believe that you have all the answers, and you don't care about what anyone else thinks. Your husband may stay with you, but I honestly believe that he still wishes that he had found someone who cared enough about his natural needs to keep trying and not simply give up. I would think that since you have 1000 good things about your marriage, you would at least keep trying to make some effort to satisfy him, however, I know you will not. Almost two years of counseling -- yet in your mind, I simply gave up. Okay. Now who's self-righteous? I have never claimed to have all the answers. I only have my opinion and experience. Just because it's in disagreement with your experience doesn't mean I don't care about what anyone else thinks. Absolutely, feel free to think whatever you wish about my husband, if that makes you feel better about yourself. I never ever said I didn't "like" sex. Nor do I "proclaim" it with a sense of pride, and think I'm better than lesser beings. I do not attempt to appear as a victim. I have never felt like a victim in my marriage. Because I would never allow myself to be a victim in my marriage. Unlike some people here. As far as empathy: I do have empathy for people. especially those who TRULY are victims. I deal with victims every day of my life. Because I don't find much empathy for persons who "endure" for years in a relationship they can surely leave, does not make me devoid of empathy. Forgive me for assuming a grown, intelligent, mature person would be able to realize a problem and be able to change their situation. "I guess I should leave" was punctuated by a question mark. It was a question. I don't ask that anyone "beg" me to do anything. So wash your hands of me. Have a nice day. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 15:44:54 GMT -5
Almost two years of counseling -- yet in your mind, I simply gave up. Okay. Now who's self-righteous? I have never claimed to have all the answers. I only have my opinion and experience. Just because it's in disagreement with your experience doesn't mean I don't care about what anyone else thinks. Absolutely, feel free to think whatever you wish about my husband, if that makes you feel better about yourself. I never ever said I didn't "like" sex. Nor do I "proclaim" it with a sense of pride, and think I'm better than lesser beings. I do not attempt to appear as a victim. I have never felt like a victim in my marriage. Because I would never allow myself to be a victim in my marriage. Unlike some people here. As far as empathy: I do have empathy for people. especially those who TRULY are victims. I deal with victims every day of my life. Because I don't find much empathy for persons who "endure" for years in a relationship they can surely leave, does not make me devoid of empathy. Forgive me for assuming a grown, intelligent, mature person would be able to realize a problem and be able to change their situation. "I guess I should leave" was punctuated by a question mark. It was a question. I don't ask that anyone "beg" me to do anything. So wash your hands of me. Have a nice day. Does anyone else think we should stop feeding this detestable troll? |
|
|
|
Post by sunniedays on Feb 21, 2017 16:30:32 GMT -5
Almost two years of counseling -- yet in your mind, I simply gave up. Okay. Now who's self-righteous? I have never claimed to have all the answers. I only have my opinion and experience. Just because it's in disagreement with your experience doesn't mean I don't care about what anyone else thinks. Absolutely, feel free to think whatever you wish about my husband, if that makes you feel better about yourself. I never ever said I didn't "like" sex. Nor do I "proclaim" it with a sense of pride, and think I'm better than lesser beings. I do not attempt to appear as a victim. I have never felt like a victim in my marriage. Because I would never allow myself to be a victim in my marriage. Unlike some people here. As far as empathy: I do have empathy for people. especially those who TRULY are victims. I deal with victims every day of my life. Because I don't find much empathy for persons who "endure" for years in a relationship they can surely leave, does not make me devoid of empathy. Forgive me for assuming a grown, intelligent, mature person would be able to realize a problem and be able to change their situation. "I guess I should leave" was punctuated by a question mark. It was a question. I don't ask that anyone "beg" me to do anything. So wash your hands of me. Have a nice day. Does anyone else think we should stop feeding this detestable troll? LoL |
|
dave
New Member
Posts: 14 
|
Post by dave on Feb 21, 2017 21:04:05 GMT -5
ok...ok.....now that thats over. can we all just play nice now??? sideways real quick. hmmmm, now where the heck have i seen that happen before?  ? |
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Feb 21, 2017 21:31:42 GMT -5
ok...ok.....now that thats over. can we all just play nice now??? sideways real quick. hmmmm, now where the heck have i seen that happen before? ? Rodney King? |
|
dave
New Member
Posts: 14
|
Post by dave on Feb 21, 2017 21:37:32 GMT -5
good one shamwow, good one!
|
|
|
|
Post by eternaloptimism on Feb 22, 2017 9:03:54 GMT -5
Almost two years of counseling -- yet in your mind, I simply gave up. Okay. Now who's self-righteous? I have never claimed to have all the answers. I only have my opinion and experience. Just because it's in disagreement with your experience doesn't mean I don't care about what anyone else thinks. Absolutely, feel free to think whatever you wish about my husband, if that makes you feel better about yourself. I never ever said I didn't "like" sex. Nor do I "proclaim" it with a sense of pride, and think I'm better than lesser beings. I do not attempt to appear as a victim. I have never felt like a victim in my marriage. Because I would never allow myself to be a victim in my marriage. Unlike some people here. As far as empathy: I do have empathy for people. especially those who TRULY are victims. I deal with victims every day of my life. Because I don't find much empathy for persons who "endure" for years in a relationship they can surely leave, does not make me devoid of empathy. Forgive me for assuming a grown, intelligent, mature person would be able to realize a problem and be able to change their situation. "I guess I should leave" was punctuated by a question mark. It was a question. I don't ask that anyone "beg" me to do anything. So wash your hands of me. Have a nice day. Does anyone else think we should stop feeding this detestable troll? Yep. X |
|
|
|
Post by McRoomMate on Feb 24, 2017 12:33:09 GMT -5
A key point was absolutely made. There's no intimacy. No hugs, kisses, gazes, or holding hands here. Random sexual encounters won't repair it. I once screamed at him, "I'll take a lover then!" He just looked worn out by the whole ordeal of talking about it and didn't tell me not to. I needed him to tell me no under no circumstances will you do such a thing. I needed it to matter. I'm not sexually starved only...I'm starved in many ways. Sigh. Absolutely - sex is a fundamental part but it is still a PART of the whole thing. Beyond any doubt the key is INTIMACY just as you described "no intimacy. No hugs, kisses, gazes, or holding hands" etc. Otherwise, it is just animalistic porn sex - yuck. And guess what - I had a passionless marriage and so "outsourced" and just had animalistic urges fulfilled - with a minor dose of intimacy - "coping mechanism" from Hell - God I hope I never go back there. So full steam ahead - frontal assault Divorce and into the Great Unkown but at least I will have been FINALLY honest with myself and found that I have a HEART - starved and neglected but alive and still beating. |
|
?
