Officially sexless again

I am glad that in over 30 years, your husband has NEVER said anything even slightly disrespectful to you.  I have to say, you are the only person I have ever heard say this.  Frankly, it amazes me, but I take you at your word. 

But on the other hand, maybe he knows that you are not open to disagreement.  You seem to be quite put off by people who don't agree with you here.  Maybe this is why he is a bit hesitant to express his true feelings towards you.  Divorce is very hard, and if he knows that any statement you deem even "slightly disrespectful" (your words, not mine), you will immediately go see a lawyer (I assume to file for divorce), that would not be a relationship that is conducive to total honesty. 

Just a thought about possibilities.

Thank you for the nice? response.    

Yes, having a low libido is normal for me.  It has been the norm for me (compared to my partners) for about 35 years.  Perhaps it's your belief that anyone with a lower libido than yourself is not normal.  That's fine.  But it has been my norm for as long as I can remember.  Has it prevented me from living an amazing fulfilling life?  Never.  With the exception of being hit with a deadly disease at 39, my life is 1,000 times better than I could have imagined.  My low/lack of desire had never been an issue with me prior to having cancer.  Not once.  I don't think I even ever gave it a first, second, or third thought.  No one complained, including me.  Of course I would like to have the desire now.  Of course.  Who wouldn't?  So in response to your first paragraph:  
Yes, my low/lower libido was "normal" to me.  My husband married me, being fully aware, after 10 years of dating, of my libido.  Now that it's completely gone, OF COURSE I wish I could feel the desire again.  Those two facts aren't mutually exclusive.  

Lack of empathy due to hormone imbalance because I didn't respond to your statement about how your wife abused you for years?  What I wanted to say was WHY would you stay with someone who treated you so badly.  But I didn't want to be insensitive or rude.  You imply that it's "OKAY" for a person to speak ill of their partner because they have treated you so horribly.  Perhaps.  But all I can think is why would you continue to endure something which is so distasteful, so horrible, so unspeakable for a spouse to do to another?  Emotional, verbal, physical, abuse -- there is no excuse.  You picked a person.  Maybe unwisely.  Then you had children (perhaps). And now you just want to call them names on the internet, instead of getting out.  And apparently you finally did, which is commendable.  

As to raw, down and dirty sex/hand jobs not being intimate -- That's my opinion.  I happen to believe there are much more intimate/bonding acts in a marriage than giving someone oral sex.  Of course it's lovely.  Of course it feels good.  To me -- in my life experience, giving my husband a hand job isn't what I think about when I'm daydreaming about what brings us closer together, bonding us to each other as life partners.  It just doesn't.  That's just my opinion.  I think of other things when I think about why we love each other and have stayed together for 30 years.  Things that, if you subtract handjobs, oral sex-- out of the equation, you're still left with the sum of 100 other things that cause two people to love each other.  If handjobs, oral sex, WHATEVER kind of sex was so soul-bonding, why would anyone pay a prostitute to engage in such activities?  Why would a person want to "bond" with a prostitute?  People don't pay prostitutes to care for them when they're ill.  They don't pay them to comfort them in times of sorrow.  They don't pay them to share touching moments with them as they watch their children graduate from college.  They pay them for sex.   It's sex.  Can having sex bond you to your partner?  Of course it can.  Of course.  But it can also be down and dirty, fulfilling an urge, purely tension-relieving sex.  That's my point.  It CAN be a bonding experience.  I fully agree with you.  It's just my opinion.  Does having an opposing opinion from yours somehow imply a person has a hormone imbalance?  

I absolutely realize that some folks here have been called perverts, sluts, rapists.  Of course that's horrible and absolutely not acceptable.  I can't imagine anyone continuing to want to have sex, or even speak to a person who refers to them in such a manner. Whether they believed it to be true, or whether they were saying such things out of anger or attempt to control, whatever -- there's absolutely no excuse.   But is the solution to be "harsh" to them in response on a website?  I understand this is a site to "vent."  It's my OPINION -- just an opinion, that perhaps sites like these unintentionally allow affected persons to perpetuate a harmful at worse, and unkind at best, situation.  One where people continue to vent about the abuse they are suffering, while all the while not focusing on a solution or steps to follow in order to find a solution.  Again, it's just my opinion.  Also, I find it at the same time interesting and discouraging that when a converse opinion is stated it is met with rude replies and accusations of being a "troll."  

Look, I don't think ANYONE should have to live without sex and be content with that.  Please don't misquote me.  Yes, in my opinion, sex is not "the most basic part of marriage." Of course it IS an important part of marriage.  The "MOST" important?  It's my opinion -- just my opinion, that it's not the most important.  But if you (not you, personally) do believe it IS the most important part of your marriage, and you're not satisfied with what you are experiencing, then for God's sake, change your situation.  I never attempted to change my husband into something I thought he should be.  Nor has he tried to change me.   If the person you choose as a partner isn't sexually compatible with you -- let alone, treats you abusively, WHY would you WANT to experience such a bonding/intimate act with them?  

I apologize to anyone who felt I was "admonishing" them for "expressing frustration" here.  Frustration is a normal, acceptable reaction to a frustrating situation.  What I THOUGHT I was doing was expressing an opinion that when someone behaves poorly/unkind (withholding spouse) and then the "victim" responds by name-calling and disrespect, it just brings that person down to the other person's unkind level.  Is it loving  to treat your spouse unkindly by controlling, abusing, refusing to work at a good marriage?  Of course not.  Is it loving to respond to an unkind act with unkindness?  In my opinion, no.  

Also, thank you for the passive/aggressive advice to "explore" hormone replacement therapy.  As if a 13-year survivor of breast cancer with an absent libido could possibly be unaware of such treatments.  I'm well-educated and I'm quite an advocate for my own health and well-being.  I'm quite sure that I've researched most, if not all treatments which are beneficial in order to stabilize a person's hormones.  Perhaps there are some ancient Chinese remedies that I've missed, but suffice it to say, all other hormone therapy has been thoroughly explored by myself, my primary physician and my oncologists.  None are without risk.  None guarantee positive results commensurate to the known risks.  If it's your opinion that a person with a stage III-C breast cancer history should undergo some type of hormone/testosterone treatment, which have numerous known risks, some that are not FDA approved, which have no statistical guarantee to improve their libido, that's fine.  I've decided not to risk my life on the very small chance that HRT might increase my libido.  It may be your opinion that being able to "want" to have sex and having sex is important enough to risk your health.  It's my opinion that I want to see my children succeed, marry, perhaps have children; enjoy my retirement with my husband, without willfully possibly putting my health/life in jeopardy.   My husband is fully supportive of my choice, as I would be, if the 'shoe' was on the other foot.  Again, it's my choice, after deliberate research.  Maybe it wouldn't be yours, which is absolutely your prerogative.  

Finally, thank you for counseling me on ways to "save" my marriage.   Rest easy, friend, that my marriage is in no need of saving.  Is it possible that there may be a problem in the future?  Of course.  I'm not obtuse.  Isn't that true of ANY marriage?  Presently, my marriage is just fine.  Would it be 100% perfect if I had some inkling of sexual desire?  Sure.  But you know what doesn't happen in MY marriage?  Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse.  Ever.   With the exception of about a year and a half of intensive, difficult counselling and emotional conversations, my relationship with my husband has been everything I've ever wanted it to be.  We've been happy and blessed in more ways than I could have imagined.  Of course, if given the option, I would have opted out on experiencing having a deadly disease with two children under the age of 10.  But I can't think of one single thing I would have traded in my life in exchange for the chance to somehow escape my experience with cancer.  My husband and I have discussed all options, including divorce, extensively.  Of course I wouldn't be happy if my husband decided it was in his best interests to leave me.  I don't want him to leave me.  I love him.  But he certainly has that option, as does anyone.  And I certainly don't want to stay married to someone who doesn't willingly want to stay with me.  So, yes, of course, anything is possible.  No one knows the future.  But I assure you, my 30-year relationship with my husband is more than fine.  You can disbelieve.  You don't know me or my husband.  I can't prove it to you.  That matters not.  If you want to continue to feel sad for me, you're certainly entitled to do so. 

We just have a differing of opinions on what constitutes respect.  Of course I have called my brother names when we were growing up.  They were disrespectful.  My excuse is that we were children/adolescents.  I wouldn't do it now.  I have never called either one of my parents a disrespectful name.  Probably because I grew up in a home where my parents didn't call myself and my brother names, nor did I ever hear my parents call each other names, despite the fact that my parents divorced when I was 9.  My dad had two affairs, yet my mom NEVER called him anything disrespectful.  Not once.  Of course she explained that my dad's behavior was not right.  She probably even uttered a statement along the lines of, "Your dad is acting in" -- whatever way she described it.  I loved them both.  I know my dad behaved poorly and that what he did was wrong and hurt many people.  He's still one of the best people I know.  To this day, my mom has not referred to my dad by using a disrespectful name.  What he did was disrespectful.  And wrong.  But she never resulted to name-calling.  (at least in front of me)  So maybe that's why I do draw the line at being called anything slightly disrespectful.  Especially ESPECIALLY by my husband; a grown man, who claims to love me, whom I chose to be my partner.   So, yes, I can honestly say that in 30 years, he has not referred to me in disrespectful manner (to my face.  of course, I don't have him wired for sound)  I remember one time when my 11-year-old daughter was behaving like 11-year-old girls will, and my husband said (not to her face, but loud enough for her to hear) "She's acting like a little bitch."  No.  It's not acceptible.  I won't stand for that.  Yes, she may have been acting like a little bitch.  She was 11.  But in my life, dad does not get to say that about his daughter.  For God's sake, what does that teach her?  That people who claim to love her are allowed to disrespect her?  So maybe she can find herself a mate that will treat her similarly?  Teach her that as long as the next day they say, "I apologize for calling you a bitch.  I was angry and frustrated," that it's acceptable?  I just won't tolerate it.  In my opinion, things can be said that can never be taken back.  Apologize until you're blue in the face.   You still called me -- whatever.  Then is there even a line that it's not acceptable?  Perhaps disrespectful name-calling is "okay" if only done when one partner is angry, and only as long as the partner apologizes the next day.  But only as long as there are no more than five such incidents per year.  Where does it stop?  Does being disrespectful, despite the fact that an apology is proffered, seem to boost loving feelings towards the person being disrespectful?  Especially if it's a consistent pattern.  

I work in a courtroom.  There have been many times in my career where I have wanted to call a bench officer something disrespectful.  Many times where it was my belief that they were being unfair, unreasonable - heck, even times I can recall where they're making rulings that have been borderline illegal.  Do I get to say what I'm feeling?  Do I get to tell them what I'm thinking?  No.  I have to BEHAVE respectfully.  I HAVE to.  Even when they treat me disrespectfully, which happens occasionally.  If I can treat someone I don't love, don't like, and sometimes don't even respect with respect, I don't think it's too much to ask that my life partner, the man who loves me, AND my children to be able to treat me and each other respectfully.  

You asked if my husband doesn't speak to me with the slightest disrespect because he thinks I'll "lawyer up."  Maybe. Or maybe he knows me very well and knows I refuse to allow myself to be treated disrespectfully.  What difference does it make whether I "threaten" to lawyer up?  Is it not enough to tell him that I won't allow myself to be treated disrespectfully?   Maybe he doesn't do it, not because he believes I'll lawyer up, but because he's just respectful?  Look, I'm not attempting to represent that I have some fairy-tail, non-existent type of marriage where the spouses never argue.  Of course we have arguments.  I can absolutely assert that we have both said something along the lines of, "you're acting like" -- whatever, fill in the blank.  Or, "you're being" -- whatever.  Of course.  But hand to a Bible, I can state that I, nor he, has ever called the other a name.  You can disbelieve me.  You don't know me.   If you find the way I choose to treat others and how I expect to be treated by others an "astoundingly marital stance in an invested relationship" that's fine.  I choose to be respected, especially by the people who I love, and who love me.

I empathize with your description of the depths of sadness, self-loathing, and the "what's wrong with ME?" mentality that can develop in a marriage that's broken.  For any reason.  I'm sure these thoughts aren't exclusive to persons who happen to find themselves in a sexless relationship.  I wouldn't wish unhappiness on anyone.  People don't deserve to be treated poorly by their chosen partners.  I think that's my main point; isn't it?  

What a coincidence!  I work in a courtroom as well.  And although I am very respectful in a courtroom, I have no problem going back to the judge's chambers and telling him in no uncertain terms that his ruling was wrong.  It would be disrespectful to let him think that he is doing the right thing when I know he is wrong.  And I have even told judges in open court that although I have great respect for their positions, they are not ruing according to the law.

Yes, people deserve to be treated well by their chosen partners.  But when those partners have intentionally done things to hurt those they profess to love, the respect tends to disappear. 

Please realize that although you and I have had some disagreements, I certainly believe that you are not enjoying your sexless marriage as you stated in your thread last fall.  And I assure you that I did not intend to be rude by making suggestions, I was just trying to help your situation.

Of course it's permissible to state your position (whether it happens to be in court or with your spouse) when you think the person is incorrect or you're simply just trying to make a point.  I've also informed certain courts that I objected to their ruling or that it appeared to be in conflict with the law.  My point is, you don't argue with them in a disrespectful manner.  You don't call them names, simply because you're "angry."  Of course, inside you may be absolutely calling them every name in the book.  But it's not okay to speak it.  It's just not.  IN MY OWN OPINION, this applies even more when dealing with a partner, spouse, child, sibling -- I mean, especially with someone you love.  I absolutely agree that when a partner intentionally does things to hurt their loved one, respect disappears.  Of course.  That's obvious.  What reasonable, humane, loving person would be able to respect someone who treats them in an intentionally hurtful manner?  So don't respond with disrespect piled on top of disrespect piled on top of disrespect piled on top of disrespect.  Is that the solution?  Assuming you (not you, personally) don't live in a country with arranged marriages, YOU chose this person.  Is there the slightest chance you happened to choose some bizarre Jekyll/Hyde person who changed into an uncaring, disrespectful, rude, horrible person all of a sudden?  I guess there's a minute chance that could have happened.   But for all the others, my opinion (just my opinion, here) I feel like they should take responsibility for maybe not choosing wisely.  Of course, there's no excuse for someone to mistreat another person, regardless of making a poor choice.  It just seems so counter-productive to name-call, disrespect, complain, live a miserable life of feeling disgust and hatred for someone, instead of pulling yourself out of the situation.  Yes, it's difficult.  Yes, there are myriad challenges.  Yes, it's unfair.  Yes, it's just not right to have to sacrifice so much just because someone else can't treat you the way anyone deserves to be treated.  But what's the alternative?  Drudging through your days, feeling miserable, feeling hatred towards someone, being bitter --- I understand it can be a sucky situation.  Maybe you can't prevent someone from disrespecting you.  But you don't have to help them by also disrespecting yourself.

And finally, it's true that I don't enjoy the fact that my marriage is sexless.  I wouldn't choose it.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  But I do absolutely enjoy the 1,000 other wonderful aspects of my marriage.  If I didn't, I absolutely wouldn't stay married.  Even if the sex was FABULOUS.  

Who's the insulting one?

I originally was made aware of this site by a coworker.  I just looked into it originally because my husband and I were in counseling and I was trying to gather as much information as I could to better understand his feelings by reading other peoples' stories.  

You are correct in that I don't believe that sex is the primary purpose of a marriage.  It's an aspect of marriage, I agree.  If it is the primary purpose of marriage, why then would so many people have sex with people outside of a marital vow?  They don't want to marry all those people they happen to have sex with.  They just want to have sex, not get married.  (I'm absolutely not opposed to premarital sex at all.)  I believe when you choose a person you want to marry, you are choosing a person whom you want to build a life with.  Someone you want to spend the rest of your days with, to raise children, to create a home, to spend your young years with, and someone to share your golden years with.  Yes, it's a person that you choose to have sex with for the rest of your married life.  Of course.  So in my opinion, sex isn't THE primary purpose for marriage.  If it were, people would probably have a tendency to marry a person who is a crazy, adventurous, any time willing, do anything, anywhere sexual partner, instead of picking a person whom they feel is honest, shares your religious beliefs, shares your beliefs in future plans, has similar morals and standards, has similar life goals, etc.   Again, it's never been my intention to convince anyone that sex isn't an important aspect in a marriage or relationship.  I don't care if anyone changes their opinion; like you, I'm just giving an opposite point of view.  

I don't believe I've ever stated that sexual rejection was not abuse.  I absolutely believe if someone you love, and who is supposed to love you, treats you unkind, disrespectful, in an attempt to control, or just to be mean, IS abuse.  Whether it's withholding sex or physical abuse, verbal abuse -- whatever -- any form of control.   I don't believe I ever tried to convince anyone that  sex is unimportant.  On the contrary, I believe I've always stated IF it IS  important to a person, and that person isn't satisfied with their spouse, sexually -- or HOWEVER, then they need to find a way to change their situation.  


And the only other opinion that I stated, and that I stand by, is that it IS possible for a person to have a low/lower libido than another person without it meaning that the person isn't sexually attracted to the other, doesn't love the other, or is trying to control the other.   Of course, if a marriage or relationship has other problems -- substantial, irreparable issues, of course opposite sexual compatibility is going to seem huge.  I've read a lot of stories that begin with how a spouse is withholding sex and how it makes the poster angry, insecure.  But then the poster goes on to say that the spouse also does this or that horrible thing.  Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex.  My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does.   

As far as I know, my husband doesn't know about this site.  Or, actually, he may be aware of it, because I believe I mentioned it during counseling.  However, having been with my husband for 30 years, I would confidently state that he wouldn't avail himself to investigate it, or any other such site.  He doesn't particularly have the time or frankly the interest to read about other peoples' issues.  Which is perfectly acceptable to me, because he participated fully and with great enthusiasm and heart, in counseling for about 18 months.  What more could I ask for?  

I'm a little unclear as to your last question. Would he agree with me?    I'll answer what I think you were wondering.  I think he agrees with me about marriage, about what a marriage is for -- what it means to him and myself.  Otherwise we would be divorced.   Does he agree sex is "THE most important part of a marriage"?  I don't know.  But it seems like he doesn't, again, because otherwise we would be divorced.  Does he think sex IS important?  Of course he does.  Which is why we've had sex with each other for almost 30 years.  But we've also done so many other things during our relationship with each other; we've dated, we married, we've bought homes, we've changed careers, we started a family, we raised two children, we've traveled, we've started businesses, we've filed bankruptcy, we started new businesses, we enjoy each other in our leisure time, he does things with his life-long friends, I do things with my life-long friends, we do things with each others' friends, we supported each other through difficult times, deaths in each others' families,  supported each other in important decisions.  We have lots of plans for our future.  five-year plans, 10-year plans.  Plans for retirement.  Plans for helping our children start their adult lives.  There's no other person that I want to do these things with.  We're not just roommates or friends because we don't have sex.  We're life partners.   Roommates and friends don't often do the things I just mentioned, regardless of how strong their friendship is.   If you don't even LIKE your spouse AND you're not having sex, but still living in the same house, it may seem similar to a roommate relationship or friend relationship.  When you've been in a loving relationship for 30 years, the mere fact that there comes a time where there are no sexual relations doesn't therefore designate you as a roommate. (in my opinion)  I've had roommates.  We didn't have sex.    AND we didn't do any of the aforementioned examples of what my husband and I have shared together.  Roommates share rent.  Spouses share lives.   

So does he agree with me?  I think he must.  We've discussed just about everything we can, looked into any and every solution we could think of.  We're still together.  Could he change his mind one day?  Of course.  Which could happen in ANY relationship, whether the two are having sex once a day or once a month or once a year.  We didn't give up our rights as citizens when we decided to stay together.  Either one of us may have different feelings down the line.  No one can foretell the  future.  He has the absolute right to tell me he is no longer happy and wants a divorce.  As do I.  I hope we don't.  But I wouldn't stay with anyone who didn't want to be with me, no matter how much life history we shared.