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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 5, 2017 9:01:37 GMT -5
Then she says you can explain to the children it was YOUR decision. So sorry for your pain and confusion. The age and social maturity of your kids will dictate how you break the news to them. However, I see NO REASON why you have to voluntarily throw yourself under the bus and tell them "it is solely me who wants a divorce; your mom is the angel, and I'm the devil." I mean, I understand saying to your wife in a conversation "sure, it is 100% my fault". That is just a technique to say "I can tell you are unmovable on this point, so to more speedily get past this point of the discussion, let's just assume it is 100% my fault." (If she accepted this conversational brush-off, that to me shows she is pretty narcissistic. If she REALLY wanted to work on things and were a *reasonable* person, she would throw in a little self-reflection and admit to some of her shortcomings, too.) But that "I'll take the blame" statement, IMO, is not an AGREEMENT with her that "I'll take all the 'blame' in front of the children, or with our families, or with our friends." When explaining the divorce to any of them, you should use age/situation appropriate language, and where possible be respectful, BUT BE HONEST. Maybe you can say things like: To your kids (if in the 8 to 13 range): "Mom and dad have had a different way of looking at certain things for many years, and it has made me very sad. Will always be your dad, and -- at this point -- I think I can be a better dad if I'm no longer married to mom." To your family/friends, and even your kids if they are emotionally mature and/or in their later teens: "___ and I have have had a pretty serious mismatch in the level of sex and intimacy we want in our marriage. That friction has lead to other frictions, and I'm suffocating. I have to get out to save my own life." Good luck... Excellent very practical . . . I am keeping this in my pocket - just in case. I have no idea where this is going. Honestly from my heart Thank-you! |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 5, 2017 9:22:34 GMT -5
McRoomMate , this is a case where couples counseling could be very helpful - if you have two willing parties, a therapist can guide you in a productive direction and help you overcome the speed bumps that are bound to happen. If there is momentum here, it deserves the best shot at success. Enjoy the rediscovered intimacy. Come up for air periodically and do a sanity check. "Trust, but verify." Meanwhile, keep your powder dry. Good luck. (I'm reluctant to rain on your parade here, but radical turnarounds are rare enough to be suspicious. Just stay sharp.) Thank-you sincerely DryCreek Will give this a shot. The main thing for me is I have a toxic layer of resentment and other negative feelings suffocating my heart towards her. I too need to learn how to love again. I even told her that. We are sort of "faking it til we make it." I definitely appreciate your cautious warnings about chances of success. It is up to BOTH of us and needs to be a daily thing and a plan. I am over in Europe and she skoffed at therapy - saying it is a "European thing." |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 5, 2017 9:25:21 GMT -5
To tell if it is a true turnaround, GO TO THERAPY, as DryCreek suggests. One night (and following morning) of rafter-raising sex is NOT the turnaround. Continued patterns of action to regain trust, to instantiate a regular pattern of intimacy, THAT is a turnaround. Again: good luck... And: we are here for you, buddy! Thank-you for the excellent guidance @dan We are over in Europe and therapy is more an American thing - I am not sure how advance this is here. I have a prominent psychiatrist friend and will ask him (we are too good of friends for me to be his patient but he would know). I fully agree 24 hours of sex / intimacy is hardly a convincing turn around but a good start. |
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Post by Dan on Feb 5, 2017 10:37:27 GMT -5
Thank-you for the excellent guidance @dan We are over in Europe and therapy is more an American thing - I am not sure how advance this is here. I have a prominent psychiatrist friend and will ask him (we are too good of friends for me to be his patient but he would know). I fully agree 24 hours of sex / intimacy is hardly a convincing turn around but a good start. You can do this without a professional talk therapist... IF you can safely and thoroughly BOTH start to express your true needs; your true hopes for the marriage. (SOME discussion of the past is relevant, but it is not necessarily wise to bring up every past slight and beat each other with it. Only bring up the past when it is an example of "something we need to fix".) If both members of the couple are sufficiently wise, calm, self-effacing, thoughtful, introspective, good listeners, clear speakers, not prone to defensiveness... then you can succeed at this without a therapist. The fewer of those features you both have, the bigger the challenge. (It is when these are lacking that a trained professional can do her or his best to coax this behavior out of folks.) Note in 90% of marital therapy in the US, the goal is not "mending the marriage". The goal is "highly effective communication, so the couple can fix what is fixable, and they can honestly assess if they want to stick with it or not." THAT is what you are striving for... therapist or not. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 5, 2017 11:25:10 GMT -5
Thank-you for the excellent guidance @dan We are over in Europe and therapy is more an American thing - I am not sure how advance this is here. I have a prominent psychiatrist friend and will ask him (we are too good of friends for me to be his patient but he would know). I fully agree 24 hours of sex / intimacy is hardly a convincing turn around but a good start. You can do this without a professional talk therapist... IF you can safely and thoroughly BOTH start to express your true needs; your true hopes for the marriage. (SOME discussion of the past is relevant, but it is not necessarily wise to bring up every past slight and beat each other with it. Only bring up the past when it is an example of "something we need to fix".) If both members of the couple are sufficiently wise, calm, self-effacing, thoughtful, introspective, good listeners, clear speakers, not prone to defensiveness... then you can succeed at this without a therapist. The fewer of those features you both have, the bigger the challenge. (It is when these are lacking that a trained professional can do her or his best to coax this behavior out of folks.) Note in 90% of marital therapy in the US, the goal is not "mending the marriage". The goal is "highly effective communication, so the couple can fix what is fixable, and they can honestly assess if they want to stick with it or not." THAT is what you are striving for... therapist or not. Again Big Thank-you. Frankly This FORUM and ALL YOU VERY WISE EXPERIENCED FRIENDS - know this stuff better than any therapist. This Forum is sort of like "Alcholics Anonymous" - in other words (only a drunk can get another drunk sober) - only those who have experienced the Hell of a Bad Marriage / Sexless Marriage - and educated and experienced this nightmare can see thru all the lies and toxic emotions to get to the sacred and elusive truth. |
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Post by lakeside4003 on Feb 5, 2017 11:59:56 GMT -5
anyone who cannot easily see that all relationships are '2-way streets' and that no one is 100% at fault/to blame/etc. is showing how irrational they are.
Common sense suggests that she's just wanting to avoid any responsibility - but clearly knows she has contributed mightily to the situation.
My situation is similar - separation now imminent... It's become clear that my wife has a very difficult time allowing herself to acknowledge how devastating a SM can be over such a long time (especially for the one with the higher libido).
she simply cannot relate to these feelings of frustration, deep dissatisfaction and sexual abandonment - and prefers to justify her extreme avoidance with suggesting the vast majority of 'blame' is on me. she knows she has deep intimacy avoidance issues from childhood, but prefers to suggest that I drove her to become that way, or that it's perfectly normal for some to have very low libidos, or near zero desire for sex anymore...
Even if I take the high road and point out 'we're both to blame, no one more so than the other - it just is what it is...' she is very uncomfortable with accepting the responsibility that that suggests.
it sucks, it hurts, and it's not going to go away quickly. However, (for me) it does make it a bit easier to deal with when someone is refusing to consider the others' feelings, pain and 'how it might be for them' - that tells me that that they're not really interested in any 'rational discourse' - but only want to justify their own way of being.
Please take care of yourself and take some solace in knowing that someone who say's '100% your fault' is, by definition, irrational. Even she will eventually come to see this - it's an easy acknowledgement - but fighting it for now says a lot about her...
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Post by lyn on Feb 5, 2017 12:00:40 GMT -5
To tell if it is a true turnaround, GO TO THERAPY, as DryCreek suggests. One night (and following morning) of rafter-raising sex is NOT the turnaround. Continued patterns of action to regain trust, to instantiate a regular pattern of intimacy, THAT is a turnaround. Again: good luck... And: we are here for you, buddy! Thank-you for the excellent guidance @dan We are over in Europe and therapy is more an American thing - I am not sure how advance this is here. I have a prominent psychiatrist friend and will ask him (we are too good of friends for me to be his patient but he would know). I fully agree 24 hours of sex / intimacy is hardly a convincing turn around but a good start. hey just want to mention that there are some decent online therapy options (via Skype etc). I've heard some good things - might be an option for you guys. I truly hope this ends up where you want it to. It may be a good idea to revisit your original posts from time to time in order to stay out of a "sex fog". Ahhhhh the "sex fog"....... a little jealous, not gonna lie. Lol Keep us posted please 😊 |
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Post by shamwow on Feb 5, 2017 12:04:51 GMT -5
Thank-you for the excellent guidance @dan We are over in Europe and therapy is more an American thing - I am not sure how advance this is here. I have a prominent psychiatrist friend and will ask him (we are too good of friends for me to be his patient but he would know). I fully agree 24 hours of sex / intimacy is hardly a convincing turn around but a good start. hey just want to mention that there are some decent online therapy options (via Skype etc). I've heard some good things - might be an option for you guys. I truly hope this ends up where you want it to. It may be a good idea to revisit your original posts from time to time in order to stay out of a "sex fog". Ahhhhh the "sex fog"....... a little jealous, not gonna lie. Lol Keep us posted please 😊 "sex fog" Sounds like crappy 70's rock band lol |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 5, 2017 13:49:14 GMT -5
anyone who cannot easily see that all relationships are '2-way streets' and that no one is 100% at fault/to blame/etc. is showing how irrational they are. Common sense suggests that she's just wanting to avoid any responsibility - but clearly knows she has contributed mightily to the situation. My situation is similar - separation now imminent... It's become clear that my wife has a very difficult time allowing herself to acknowledge how devastating a SM can be over such a long time (especially for the one with the higher libido). she simply cannot relate to these feelings of frustration, deep dissatisfaction and sexual abandonment - and prefers to justify her extreme avoidance with suggesting the vast majority of 'blame' is on me. she knows she has deep intimacy avoidance issues from childhood, but prefers to suggest that I drove her to become that way, or that it's perfectly normal for some to have very low libidos, or near zero desire for sex anymore... Even if I take the high road and point out 'we're both to blame, no one more so than the other - it just is what it is...' she is very uncomfortable with accepting the responsibility that that suggests. it sucks, it hurts, and it's not going to go away quickly. However, (for me) it does make it a bit easier to deal with when someone is refusing to consider the others' feelings, pain and 'how it might be for them' - that tells me that that they're not really interested in any 'rational discourse' - but only want to justify their own way of being. Please take care of yourself and take some solace in knowing that someone who say's '100% your fault' is, by definition, irrational. Even she will eventually come to see this - it's an easy acknowledgement - but fighting it for now says a lot about her... Respect lakeside4003 Your post like so many here is just brutally honest, hurts to read, and all the while has my full EMPATHY. I am in the right place and will take what you wrote dearly to heart - I suppose pain is a good sign in that we are still alive - the dead feel no pain. I am going to give this a try on the "Reset Sex" but if there is a downward spiral or return to the former days . . . I swear I will be ruthless and no pity - there will be no next time so help me God. |
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Post by lakeside4003 on Feb 5, 2017 14:12:04 GMT -5
McRoomie - no need to go ballistic, or be ruthless/show no pity.
I have refused weak attempts of hers at 're-set sex' (very weak attempts, I should add) to stay focused on the far larger issue of passive-aggressive avoidance, the irrational imbalances of 'trying to blame/shame' and the simple truths that we've grown far apart on so many issues. I do not believe or expect that my wife can allow herself to see herself as a huge contributor to our SM and the massive consequences that creates by itself.
You do need to ensure that BOTH you and your wife are clear on what the issues are and stay focused!
agree with so much good advice that it MAY help to get to a therapist soon, and please make sure that you don't let the discussions get hijacked and 'Darvo'd'.
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 5, 2017 15:32:08 GMT -5
This sexual event establishes the scale of calamity that is required to bring the two of you to a place in which she would let herself consider enjoying sex with you.
This is the stick - is it sustainable?
The carrot would likely be a "save the marriage" vacation. I had one in Vegas that lasted a couple years off of only 3 days, and a wacky idea that came to her. We pretended we were almost strangers who agreed to a dating reality show vacation and got to know each other from the ground up again. We printed off a list of 100 first date questions - and were shocked by many results.
Once that wore off, we tried an even bigger vacation, but still got flatline result.
It really is more about the cake than the icing, in a marriage. This isn't Spring Break in Florida.
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 5, 2017 18:02:06 GMT -5
This sexual event establishes the scale of calamity that is required to bring the two of you to a place in which she would let herself consider enjoying sex with you. This is the stick - is it sustainable? The carrot would likely be a "save the marriage" vacation. I had one in Vegas that lasted a couple years off of only 3 days, and a wacky idea that came to her. We pretended we were almost strangers who agreed to a dating reality show vacation and got to know each other from the ground up again. We printed off a list of 100 first date questions - and were shocked by many results. Once that wore off, we tried an even bigger vacation, but still got flatline result. It really is more about the cake than the icing, in a marriage. This isn't Spring Break in Florida. Very good ideas - we are going on a "family vacation" skiing soon - the kids are off at ski school so we will have a lot of time alone to bond. Tonight - no Sex but we are both exhausted from the Emotional Roller Coaster last night - she slept the whole afternoon - we are cuddling in bed and holding each other - first time in at least over a year (except for last night). We have spent the day giving hugs and kisses and holding each other on the coach and elsewhere. The intimacy seems back and sex maybe later. We will see if not tomorrow - I will be bossy about it. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 5, 2017 18:36:34 GMT -5
This sexual event establishes the scale of calamity that is required to bring the two of you to a place in which she would let herself consider enjoying sex with you. This is the stick - is it sustainable? The carrot would likely be a "save the marriage" vacation. I had one in Vegas that lasted a couple years off of only 3 days, and a wacky idea that came to her. We pretended we were almost strangers who agreed to a dating reality show vacation and got to know each other from the ground up again. We printed off a list of 100 first date questions - and were shocked by many results. Once that wore off, we tried an even bigger vacation, but still got flatline result. It really is more about the cake than the icing, in a marriage. This isn't Spring Break in Florida. Very good ideas - we are going on a "family vacation" skiing soon - the kids are off at ski school so we will have a lot of time alone to bond. Tonight - no Sex but we are both exhausted from the Emotional Roller Coaster last night - she slept the whole afternoon - we are cuddling in bed and holding each other - first time in at least over a year (except for last night). We have spent the day giving hugs and kisses and holding each other on the coach and elsewhere. The intimacy seems back and sex maybe later. We will see if not tomorrow - I will be bossy about it. McRoomate - It's important you realize, I didn't write that to give you pro tips. When there is desire, people have sex. When there isn't, they don't. People desire sex with people they don't much like, who they shouldn't like, with who it might not be convenient to like etc. They desire and have sex under the worst possible conditions. They do so because it is a fulfilling experience for them to sate with their partner, rather than a depletive one. The sex that you are having right now is part of a normal thing that happens. Normally, the carrots and sticks you are offering now aren't needed in a relationship in which there is desire. In the end, desire or the lack thereof, always wins out. |
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ModHatter
Moderator 
What kind of mad are you?
Posts: 67
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Post by ModHatter on Feb 5, 2017 23:52:38 GMT -5
Housekeeping FYI - if you're looking for the Sex Fog side-conversation, those posts have been moved to the Lighter Side thread here: iliasm.org/thread/2325/fog |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 7, 2017 2:49:41 GMT -5
Very good ideas - we are going on a "family vacation" skiing soon - the kids are off at ski school so we will have a lot of time alone to bond. Tonight - no Sex but we are both exhausted from the Emotional Roller Coaster last night - she slept the whole afternoon - we are cuddling in bed and holding each other - first time in at least over a year (except for last night). We have spent the day giving hugs and kisses and holding each other on the coach and elsewhere. The intimacy seems back and sex maybe later. We will see if not tomorrow - I will be bossy about it. McRoomate - It's important you realize, I didn't write that to give you pro tips. When there is desire, people have sex. When there isn't, they don't. People desire sex with people they don't much like, who they shouldn't like, with who it might not be convenient to like etc. They desire and have sex under the worst possible conditions. They do so because it is a fulfilling experience for them to sate with their partner, rather than a depletive one. The sex that you are having right now is part of a normal thing that happens. Normally, the carrots and sticks you are offering now aren't needed in a relationship in which there is desire. In the end, desire or the lack thereof, always wins out. Thank-you for clarifying. Lamentably, it may be me who is "faking" it. She asked if I still loved her and I said as honest as I could without a direct "No" that there were a lot of toxic emotions and resentments around my heart and that I did not know what was underneath that toxic layer. I am hoping I can "learn to love" again - but frankly love is something that happens to me, not a conscious decision. I am trying to do everything in my power to save our marriage - well imperfectly - but making efforts nonetheless. I am right now under the adage "fake it until you make it" but I am not yet convinced such approach can apply here. Respect. |
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