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Post by cagedtiger on Oct 10, 2016 15:32:13 GMT -5
You do not have to be "the good husband" when there isn't "a good wife" in the pair. Be a good person. That is all. (I think if you can, it's great to phrase the truth w/o sounding bitter then mention: and I work a lot on my bitterness because it's there, but I try not to feed that) I'm not an expert in marriage therapy. I only had one year long failed stint at that. It failed partly because I was not assertive enough as to my misery and bitterness and resentfulness. And partly because we were 7-10 years into our SM and even then I honestly believed it was too late. But kept my counsel on that because I thought it was the adult thing to do or some such nonsense. If I had to do that over again, I would hold nothing back. Nothing. I'd be brutally honest, particularly about what the sexlessness has done to the marriage. In my case the therapists concentrated on fixing me, under the theory I wasn't good enough to fuck. Thus validating all my wife's excuses. Wrong ending. Ouch From what I've seen so far, and from what my wife has said so far, I get the idea that's not going to be the conclusion our counselor reaches. My wife has already admitted that she didn't/ doesn't know how to handle the sheer intensity and depth of the love and devotion I came into the relationship with, because she didn't feel "worthy." And that was the second time the counselor suggested she might want to see a therapist. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 10, 2016 15:35:16 GMT -5
I'm sorry CT, I'm behind the curve with all the back stories. I take it you are still looking for a resolution, and it's all down to what your wife think/wants. Is that it? It's actually on me- mostly. But I'm trying to be the "good" husband and see if this is worth salvaging, because it's what's expected or some shit that keeps me feeling guilty about being so serious about leaving. Even though I feel more and more that it's probably the inevitable end of this story. , please tell me if any of these ring true: Do you feel you need to lay out your "case" for where you are, logically and dispassionately... basically to the point of getting her to agree that your desire for a divorce is "warranted"? Do you feel that you have to "appear to be the good husband" to those outside your marriage? Such as to her friends, your friends, her family, your family... Do you still feel a responsibility "to take care of her" emotionally, financially.... even socially? And that you leaving her may cause her to "deteriorate"? If so you may be in a similar "place", emotionally, that I have been for a few years. I've taken on that it is somehow "on me" to try the Nth time to the Nth degree. I think the more time I spend here, the more I realize these seemingly "outward forces" ("convincing her" and "being seen as not being cavalier with your marriage by others") are truly INWARD needs of my own. This I think has been an important revelation for me. Does that mean my divorce is imminent? No. But I'm coping with my decision to "stay for now" MUCH BETTER since I had this realization. If you are on approximately the same emotional path, I have I wish for you: May your journey be swifter than mine! |
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Post by beachguy on Oct 10, 2016 15:36:14 GMT -5
I'm not an expert in marriage therapy. I only had one year long failed stint at that. It failed partly because I was not assertive enough as to my misery and bitterness and resentfulness. And partly because we were 7-10 years into our SM and even then I honestly believed it was too late. But kept my counsel on that because I thought it was the adult thing to do or some such nonsense. If I had to do that over again, I would hold nothing back. Nothing. I'd be brutally honest, particularly about what the sexlessness has done to the marriage. In my case the therapists concentrated on fixing me, under the theory I wasn't good enough to fuck. Thus validating all my wife's excuses. Wrong ending. Ouch From what I've seen so far, and from what my wife has said so far, I get the idea that's not going to be the conclusion our counselor reaches. My wife has already admitted that she didn't/ doesn't know how to handle the sheer intensity and depth of the love and devotion I came into the relationship with, because she didn't feel "worthy." And that was the second time the counselor suggested she might want to see a therapist. Where you're different is that your wife admits it's her problem. I never had that luxury, and maybe I had unusually bad counsellors. But the idea that the refused is unworthy of fucking and needs to be fixed is the inevitable end result of the female responsiveness theory that is still quite popular, at least in the popular media |
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Post by cagedtiger on Oct 10, 2016 16:41:28 GMT -5
Dan, you hit me spot on for most of those things.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 10, 2016 18:11:21 GMT -5
It's actually on me- mostly. But I'm trying to be the "good" husband and see if this is worth salvaging, because it's what's expected or some shit that keeps me feeling guilty about being so serious about leaving. Even though I feel more and more that it's probably the inevitable end of this story. , please tell me if any of these ring true: Do you feel you need to lay out your "case" for where you are, logically and dispassionately... basically to the point of getting her to agree that your desire for a divorce is "warranted"? Do you feel that you have to "appear to be the good husband" to those outside your marriage? Such as to her friends, your friends, her family, your family... Do you still feel a responsibility "to take care of her" emotionally, financially.... even socially? And that you leaving her may cause her to "deteriorate"? If so you may be in a similar "place", emotionally, that I have been for a few years. I've taken on that it is somehow "on me" to try the Nth time to the Nth degree. I think the more time I spend here, the more I realize these seemingly "outward forces" ("convincing her" and "being seen as not being cavalier with your marriage by others") are truly INWARD needs of my own. This I think has been an important revelation for me. Does that mean my divorce is imminent? No. But I'm coping with my decision to "stay for now" MUCH BETTER since I had this realization. If you are on approximately the same emotional path, I have I wish for you: May your journey be swifter than mine! Hey dan and CT, your quote about being seen as cavalier with my marriage by others, was a very strong holding point,for me, for a long time. Appearing to be the good husband, father to orphans, care giver to Grandpa,and wondering how much would deteriorate without my presence. Allowing all this to happen while she could still have her career, relatives close by, church of her choice, adoption ministries, teaching others how to adopt. Where I failed was trying to get her to agree that my need for self recognition had a place in the whole picture. It took years of being shoved further and further in a corner, and having more and more of my pride, esteem, and self respect stripped away from me. Back to the give, give, give, part of the relationship. (ironically, now that people hear about the divorce and I tell my side, saying "my spouse is a manipulative controller". They respond, " yea, I can see that, or I always knew that!") Once the fog (fear, obligation, guilt)was lifted, the mask removed, below lies a troubled person with deep issues that I continued to feed. This is as far as I can go with understanding it. It gets to deep, complex, beyond my cavalier abilities. Add in the damage to our family as a unit by continuing on this way, and I have reached the conclusion that separation will be a positive, helpful alternative. What everyone decides to do with it, will be a individual choice. |
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Post by Caris on Oct 10, 2016 21:08:34 GMT -5
cagedtiger, It's strange how we carry the guilt when we are the innocent party. I felt such loyalty to my husband, and still do to a point, in regards to safeguarding his reputation. I would never want to humiliate him. Maybe it's the kind of people we are, and perhaps that's why we feel guilt when there is no need to. Wish you well.
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Post by sweetplumeria on Oct 14, 2016 3:50:29 GMT -5
I think your on to something here eternaloptimism. My husband gets his drive and motivation from his perceived image. Sex doesnt give him the same motivation. My drive comes from deep intimate connection and sex. He likes to rescue, the problem is once your rescued then what?
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Post by Dan on Oct 14, 2016 10:32:13 GMT -5
I got home from work yesterday evening before as she was packing to leave. We chatted about the weekend coming up, and I wished her a safe trip. She turned and looked at me as I went to leave the bedroom. "I want you to miss me this weekend." I just thought of a different reply to this. Something I might have said a few years back: Refuser: "I want you to miss me this weekend while I'm away." Refused: "I already miss you -- miss us -- every day we are together." ... mourning the sexual intimacy that is constantly missing. Alas, I probably wouldn't say this now, as I'm too jaded and our sexlessness has ossified our relationship to the point where saying such heartstring-pulling things really have no value. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Oct 14, 2016 10:43:15 GMT -5
I got home from work yesterday evening before as she was packing to leave. We chatted about the weekend coming up, and I wished her a safe trip. She turned and looked at me as I went to leave the bedroom. "I want you to miss me this weekend." I just thought of a different reply to this. Something I might have said a few years back: Refuser: "I want you to miss me this weekend while I'm away." Refused: "I already miss you -- miss us -- every day we are together." ... mourning the sexual intimacy that is constantly missing. Alas, I probably wouldn't say this now, as I'm too jaded and our sexlessness has ossified our relationship to the point where saying such heartstring-pulling things really have no value. I actually said that to her a while back- "I've missed you- us- for a long time." She didn't answer to that. While she's gone this week to her beach with her mom, I'm writing down everything that's been wrong in the last couple of years. Five pages of journal entries so far, and this'll all begin to be discussed in counseling next week. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 14, 2016 10:57:40 GMT -5
While she's gone this week to her beach with her mom, I'm writing down everything that's been wrong in the last couple of years. Five pages of journal entries so far, and this'll all begin to be discussed in counseling next week. This is for your next solo therapy appointment, or next joint one? If the latter... five pages is probably too much to bring in, no? My 2¢: pick the top one or two "most important" OR "most addressable" issues. After all, if you hit her with all: 1) You might just get NOTHING done in the session. 2) She might never leave for a full week again!  |
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Post by cagedtiger on Oct 14, 2016 11:02:34 GMT -5
While she's gone this week to her beach with her mom, I'm writing down everything that's been wrong in the last couple of years. Five pages of journal entries so far, and this'll all begin to be discussed in counseling next week. This is for your next solo therapy appointment, or next joint one? If the latter... five pages is probably too much to bring in, no? My 2¢: pick the top one or two "most important" OR "most addressable" issues. After all, if you hit her with all: 1) You might just get NOTHING done in the session. 2) She might never leave for a full week again! This is the couples counseling, and it was our counselor's suggestion that it's time to start unpacking all these things now- were have only briefly touched on the lack of her letting me get close, and haven't touched at all on the chronic lack of sex, affection, or emotional or physical intimacy. And there have been sideways references about a potential lack of compatibility, but we haven't really explored that yet either. |
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Post by sweetplumeria on Oct 14, 2016 11:03:00 GMT -5
I just realized a little bit ago that she turned down the picture she keeps in a frame on the nightstand on her side of the bed- one of our wedding pictures. I'm sure that's not accidental. I texted her yesterday about taking her dog to the vet (ear infection), and she said thank you for that, but nothing else since then. So, business as usual. I'm dreading her getting back tomorrow afternoon, especially if she asks if I came around to missing her (I didn't). But I'm not going to lie or try to gloss things over either. I think she is letting go of the relationship with the picture turned and her remark about you missing her is probably a guilt move. I am pondering about the idea of mismatched love languages. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Oct 14, 2016 11:17:58 GMT -5
I think she is letting go of the relationship with the picture turned and her remark about you missing her is probably a guilt move. I am pondering about the idea of mismatched love languages. Oh, they're very, very mismatched and I think have been since we started dating. She claims that I've never "gotten" her, and I think honestly she's never really "gotten" me either. |
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Post by sweetplumeria on Oct 14, 2016 12:03:54 GMT -5
I think she is letting go of the relationship with the picture turned and her remark about you missing her is probably a guilt move. I am pondering about the idea of mismatched love languages. Oh, they're very, very mismatched and I think have been since we started dating. She claims that I've never "gotten" her, and I think honestly she's never really "gotten" me either. I guess you know where this is probably heading right? |
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Post by cagedtiger on Oct 14, 2016 12:08:13 GMT -5
Oh, they're very, very mismatched and I think have been since we started dating. She claims that I've never "gotten" her, and I think honestly she's never really "gotten" me either. I guess you know where this is probably heading right? I do. I think she does too. She told me last weekend that at times she wonders if she's fighting so hard because she wants "us," or because she doesn't want to be a 35 year old divorcee. |
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