Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 11:51:51 GMT -5
I just realized a little bit ago that she turned down the picture she keeps in a frame on the nightstand on her side of the bed- one of our wedding pictures. I'm sure that's not accidental. I texted her yesterday about taking her dog to the vet (ear infection), and she said thank you for that, but nothing else since then. So, business as usual. I'm dreading her getting back tomorrow afternoon, especially if she asks if I came around to missing her (I didn't). But I'm not going to lie or try to gloss things over either. You know you got trouble when you walk in the hall You see your poor picture faced against the wall Oh boy about to get a blues attack |
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Post by Isabellas39 on Sept 25, 2016 11:52:23 GMT -5
One thing that I realize in retrospect is how much dishonesty there is in a SM. We lie to ourselves that it's not so bad, that's it's all good bar the sex, that it will magically improve. Our spouses lie to us by pretending the same, by reset behaviors that they know are not meaningful indicators of change. And we lie to them by omission, by not calling them out and being honest about our needs. My resolution now is to cut the bullshit completely. If your spouse can't handle honesty, then there is a problem in the marriage. This is very true ! So much dishonesty because you need to keep the peace.. My husband says I love you a lot, and it drives me batty.. When I can't take it anymore I respond with, "Do you want to have that discussion about what the word love means to both of us again?"..This usually brings about some silence, but just for a short while. I don't respond to I miss you much, and if I do I say the kids miss you...I just don't understand how you can feel love when there's no intimacy...I just don't get it. |
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Post by Dan on Sept 26, 2016 8:44:28 GMT -5
One thing that I realize in retrospect is how much dishonesty there is in a SM. We lie to ourselves that it's not so bad, that's it's all good bar the sex, that it will magically improve. Our spouses lie to us by pretending the same, by reset behaviors that they know are not meaningful indicators of change. And we lie to them by omission, by not calling them out and being honest about our needs. This is very true ! So much dishonesty because you need to keep the peace. Two thoughts: 1) Dishonesty in relating to my wife: I realized how "dishonest" I was inside my SM (in the ways nyartgal means) when I started outsourcing, because in those relationships I found the glorious freedom of being 100% honest with my APs. I could be honest about my sexual desires, how I felt about my marital relationship and the relationship with my AP, and even simple matters of life, finances, child-rearing. In fact, this utter honesty attracted me to outsourcing at least as much as the promise of some good sex did. What an irony that doing what society considers "the most dishonest thing" in a relationship, I had a new found joy of true honesty in my relationships. 2) Dishonesty in assessment of the state of the marriage: As I learned what it felt like to be "more honestly me", that also punctured the veil of "it is all good except the sex". I realize that for the first 15 or 20 years of my marriage, what kept me committed despite a flagging marital sex life was the HOPE and BELIEF that "if I just do these one or two more things, I'll get her libido back up to 'normal'". That hope kept me seeing things rosier than they were. Seeing that plenty of other women already had a plenty-healthy sexual appetite WITHOUT my constant pandering and cajoling helped me more honestly assess the ACTUAL stated of the marital relationship, and its prospects for sexual compromise. |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Sept 26, 2016 12:19:07 GMT -5
Dan that's a bit of a lightbulb moment right there. Interesting. X
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endthegame
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Age Range: 46-50
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Post by endthegame on Sept 26, 2016 15:25:43 GMT -5
This honesty thing rings true. In my marriage the elephant in the room was built out of lies. Not only was it a house of cards, but a house of elephants. They made a right racket when they came tumbling down.
I used to have a job that involved a lot of travel and hotels. Once I was past the uncomfortable lying stage about missing her I stopped contacting my wife at all when away. One day she said it's wrong of me to not contact her. "What about the kids!" She said. "Oh I talk to the kids every day, and Skype every evening, I send pics of where I have been and we text a lot". She was furious. Strange reaction, considering by that point in our marriage we had not had any intimate contact, nor reasonable conversations, nor the other nuts and bolts of a healthy marriage. We had slept apart for years. It was a good indicator of how important control was to her. She saw clearly that she didn't matter. One day when she was having one of her mini breakdowns she accused me of being distant with her. I agreed, and said she now has what she wants, a husband that pays for all the stuff and stays away from her. Bliss. She said she didn't want that. I said the last decade proves she does. Not the words, but her actions. She had nothing to say to this.
Not sure what I'm saying now... So I'll stop jabbering. Probably it came down to - I tired of lying to myself, and the consequence of this was I stopped lying to her. It caused temporary shit, but that passed. The lies just became too heavy for me.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 26, 2016 21:50:06 GMT -5
CagedTiger,
On the theme of honesty... you've got to be true to yourself first by not saying anything you don't mean. And you did a decent job of it. I've been there... through the counseling stage. And it was the time where I was finally decided I wasn't going to hold anything back. I was going to lay it all on the line - and to be honest - otherwise counseling would not work and I wouldn't get what I *NEEDED* out of the marriage.
Some other possible responses to situations like that (e.g. I need you to miss me what I'm gone, etc.):
1. I have needs too.
2. We're working though a difficult time in our marriage. I need to feel loved by you before I can miss you.
3. Thank you for sharing how you feel. We need to have honest communication if this counseling and our rebuilding efforts are going to have any chance of success. [Stop there - be vague] OR [At this time I feel differently.] OR [My feelings are complicated right now.]
4. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Your telling me that you want me to miss you... seems to either mean:
a. You telling me how you wish and *hope* how I will feel.
b. You leading me / nudging me / pushing me / guilting me on how I *should* feel
What do you mean by that? If it's the first one (a), that's OK. That deals with your feelings and you're entitled to them and I want you to be honest about your feelings. If it's more of the second one (b), then that's not OK / not right. No one should tell any other person how they *should* feel. Your feelings are what they are. My feelings are what they are. And (see above) my feelings are complicated right now. I'll try to clarify my thoughts and feelings when you return.
CT - Some things I did that "encouraged" my refuser to go to counseling (and set the tone for where our relationship honestly was at):
* I told my W / refuser that I would not hold her or kiss her until we go to counseling (implied with this was that I could no longer say "I love you")(and I didn't say it if I didn't mean it)(and "I miss you" would fall into the same category)
* I took off my wedding ring (actually many months earlier). Then during counseling, and even after we started having sex again, when she asked me about wearing my wedding ring again, I told her that I would do so when I felt *married* again / like a loved spouse again. (I told her I didn't want reset sex). I loved this answer of mine because now *I* was dishing back to *her* the same kind of stuff she had been dishing at me for years. (e.g. Refuser: I will have sex with you when *I* feel loved enough)(now I was saying: I will wear the wedding ring again when *I* feel loved enough)(e.g. enough continual physical intimacy / sex)
I say these things to give you some ideas. You could take your ring off. You could tell her that you honestly can't say you love her or that you miss her until *she* makes you feel loved enough. So the burden is on her to do the right things that make you feel happy / loved. The thing that took me so long to truly understand is that each spouse may have *different* key needs and if you truly love your spouse or want to act in a loving way (e.g. you're making an effort to love), then you will *give* the other person what he/she needs, even if you don't want it yourself. It's a *gift* to the other person.
But it all comes back to honesty. I encourage you... Don't hold anything back. Be honest. And if you don't know what to say, it's OK to fall back on "Thanks for telling me that. My feelings are complicated, and since I know we don't have time for a long discussion right now, I'll try to clarify them for you later. (Optional: I'm working through things our counselor discussed with us.)"
TL2
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 6:50:30 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts TL2....worth considering...
I haven't worn my ring in 5 years.... and I have been married for 7....and she has never said a thing....
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Post by petrushka on Sept 27, 2016 7:12:39 GMT -5
Last year I was gone for a week long training. I called at night, before bed, just to see if everything was ok. Then from her, it was "Talk to you tomorrow night. Bye"
If I ever am gone from home again, I will not call or text her.
Keeping in touch with your family when you're away is important. So typical isn't it? When I went to Oz for 3 weeks, a few years ago, I was on skype almost every evening. When she went to Germany for 3 months ... I think I got one postcard that arrived after she got back. 1 email or so.  |
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Post by petrushka on Sept 27, 2016 7:16:34 GMT -5
She wants you to miss her. Anyone else think this is a control issue? It puts her back in the driver seat. Reverse the reversal, and tell her " I want you to miss having sex with me. I want you to miss my humor,charm, and all the giving in and compromising I have done for you. I'd say this is someone who is very insecure, has low self esteem, but is too ___whatever ___ to really want to put anything in to the relationship going on what we hear. This is not an uncommon scenario: a person with very low self esteem who does not love themselves cannot believe that anyone could love someone as unlovable as themselves and so they do not engage, and emotionally abuse the poor person who tries to love them. And yet, even so, they desire to be loved and desired and missed, because it would give them the feeling of being valued. |
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Post by Pinkberry on Sept 28, 2016 3:04:39 GMT -5
Not to be flip about your situation, but you should have seen me in the Hallmark aisle when I was still married to the refuser. I would spend ages standing there, just pouring over cards trying to find something that was nice, but wasn't a huge lie. Oh boy. It must have been funny to the Target folks as they watched me squirming and huffing and sweating on the surveillance cameras. I just couldn't bring myself to not get a card for Christmas or our anniversary or whatever, but I also couldn't stand the idea of it saying a bunch of loving crap that absolutely didn't apply to us. I definitely didn't have the desire or energy to just say that I resented every minute with him because it felt like he was wasting my life. So, there I stood a few times a year just toughing it out in the card aisle wondering how I'd really let my life come to that.
I feel you, brother. I really do. The truth is important. You are so much closer to it than I ever was when I was still in.
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Post by Dan on Sept 28, 2016 8:40:10 GMT -5
Not to be flip about your situation, but you should have seen me in the Hallmark aisle when I was still married to the refuser. I would spend ages standing there, just pouring over cards trying to find something that was nice, but wasn't a huge lie. This. 1000%. I hate my anniversary for this reason; I deplore Valentines Day for this reason. Once again -- as the refused -- we seem to give SO MUCH MORE emotional consideration towards our refuser spouse than they give us. Aaaaaa! |
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Post by cagedtiger on Sept 28, 2016 10:22:24 GMT -5
Not to be flip about your situation, but you should have seen me in the Hallmark aisle when I was still married to the refuser. I would spend ages standing there, just pouring over cards trying to find something that was nice, but wasn't a huge lie. This. 1000%. I hate my anniversary for this reason; I deplore Valentines Day for this reason. Once again -- as the refused -- we seem to give SO MUCH MORE emotional consideration towards our refuser spouse than they give us. Aaaaaa! Oh, it was the same way. Our first anniversary was in May, and we both somehow managed to find cards that basically said, "wow, this is really a lot harder than I expected it to be." She didn't feel comfortable giving me the birthday card she'd gotten for me in July, (I still haven't gotten it), and I bought her a very polite birthday card last month. |
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Post by beachguy on Sept 28, 2016 15:46:29 GMT -5
The card I wanted to send my STBX on my 32nd anniversary. I think I stopped giving cards and gifts around year 10 since I had never, ever had any Anniversary, Bday or VDay sex. Or any other special occasion sex... That is also around when I stopped wearing my ring, I think.  |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Sept 29, 2016 0:20:19 GMT -5
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Post by beachguy on Sept 29, 2016 0:42:25 GMT -5
The operative word was "wanted to"  |
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