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Post by sunniedays on Jan 17, 2017 18:20:49 GMT -5
Would one of the rules be that after one spouse has "outsourced" even just one time, that there will be absolutely no intimate physical interactions between spouses again for the entirety of the marriage, except for perhaps a hug, with no kissing? I for one, would prefer divorce over open marriage. I don't relish the idea of the possibility of being infected by even the most innocuous of STD's. But that's just me.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 17, 2017 11:05:35 GMT -5
sunniedays : "Maybe they're refusing because you call them refusers. Just sayin'. Technically, it's an accurate description, because they are 'refusing' to engage in sex every time their partner wants to. But come on, it's pretty much a derogatory name. Would you want to be referred to as 'demander' by the person who was supposed to love you?" Actually a lot of refusers do tell us how "demanding" we are. And "refuser" sounds better, in my opinion, than "frigid b-----" or "limp dick." If someone is in a relationship where they're contemplating whether to call their partner frigid b**** or limp dick, the fact that they aren't getting any sex is the least of their worries.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 13, 2017 18:14:27 GMT -5
Sunnidays, please do not misunderstand. I still love my wife, always will be there for her - but the steady glide into a SM has taken its toll. 'Duty-sex' 5-10X/yr just won't work for me. I've given my all to my family and want to enjoy the next 25 yrs to the max. Never a BJ, HJ or anything focused on pleasuring me. Yes, she gets into it if the planets are aligned correctly, easily orgasms (especially w oral), but it's a blue moon if she initiates intimacy with anything resembling playfulness, sensuality, sexy, or full-out-horny. Its been a steady decline for 20 yrs now, with different periods of 6/8/10mos w zero over the last 6 yrs. I can only recall maybe a dozen times in the last 2-3 years. (she's the one who avoids similar bedtimes 99% of the time, having acknowledged that it's 'her way of controlling her boundaries') I am sorry that your wife had such difficulties in her young adult life.. And equally sorry that her life problems weren't made known to you prior to marriage. But you did describe your sex life as only "decent" prior to marriage, and you were aware of evidence of mis-matched libidos before you married and early on. I do admire that you stayed with your wife through your unhappiness, presumably for the kids. My opinion is if one partner is so wholly unhappy, there is no shame in leaving. I truly do believe that if sex - or ANYTHING is of such great importance to a person, and they're SO wasn't able to satisfy them, that person needs to stop complaining and change their situation. . It's obvious she's had a lot of issues to deal with, and never did. That's on her. But you picked her, knowing the sex between the two of you was only "decent." I mean, I wanna say you don't really have the right to say, "she never did this. She only did this." I get it. I understand that what is important to you is important to you. But you can't pick an orange when you want an apple, then complain when you're stuck with the orange. Honestly, I'm not condemning you for wanting out now. And again, you're not at fault for being who you are, and having the wants that you have. I think it's awesome that you are making the move and plan on enjoying the rest of your years. BUT -- It's just not very complimentary to refer to someone you love as a refuser. If she was a horrible person, with no redeeming qualities, treated you like crap throughout your entire marriage, AND didn't have sex with you for vindictive, controlling, punitive reasons, THEN feel free to use whatever disparaging names you want. I mean, that's just a shitty marriage that happens to have no sex. The marriage you describe sounds like there was love, but not the amount/quality of sex that one partner is satisfied with. But when someone just has a different libido than you, places a different value on sex than you, is that really a refuser? She's just different. As you said, a mis-match. Just as someone who wants to have sex every day isn't a "demander" and shouldn't be referred to as one. Especially if the two people love each other.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 13, 2017 17:08:00 GMT -5
Maybe they're refusing because you call them refusers. Just sayin'. Technically, it's an accurate description, because they are "refusing" to engage in sex every time their partner wants to. But come on, it's pretty much a derogatory name. Would you want to be referred to as "demander" by the person who was supposed to love you?
You describe your sex life with your wife as "decent", with signs of a mis-matched libido. And also that she had sexual trauma in her past. I don't know your ages, but I'm assuming you're both getting up there if you've put three kids through college. Sometimes women encounter drops in their libido as they near menopause and during menopause. Add these three factors together. It might be the perfect storm resulting in your wife's reason for "refusing."
Sexual abuse by an uncle. Date raped in first sexual experience Poor maternal influence, with mental health issues "Decent" sex life, with "signs" of mis-matched libidos early in relationship
Yet, you CHOSE her. And now, you refer to her as a refuser. How can this seem so illogical to you?
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 11, 2017 18:51:39 GMT -5
365 Nights?? I can't for the life of me think of ANYTHING I'd like to do every single day for 365 days. Except maybe breathe Ice cream. Yeah, ice cream. Touche'
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 11, 2017 16:13:39 GMT -5
365 Nights?? I can't for the life of me think of ANYTHING I'd like to do every single day for 365 days. Except maybe breathe What if you like choking fantasies? LOL
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 11, 2017 15:40:32 GMT -5
Please forgive a parochial chuckle on my part, but I know of several Christian ministries that do "challenges". I've seen several "Seven-day challenges" and I think it is Brad and Kate Olsen of One Flesh Marriage who issues an annual 10-Day challenge. Of course, they're all mere pikers to the Mullers: 365 Nights. 365 Nights?? I can't for the life of me think of ANYTHING I'd like to do every single day for 365 days. Except maybe breathe
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 10, 2017 18:43:04 GMT -5
Back before the peculiar institution of marriage, it's the likes of us men and women who'd be going around, even into ripe old age, fucking everything in sight that kept the population on the rise. Infant and adolescent mortality NEEDED those with that extra special wiring to just keep humping. Marriage is what has ruined some of us for our intended mission. To FUCK! Marriage gives our refusers the upper hand to tell us that we can't BE ourselves, that there's something wrong with us, that we are (gasp!) 'perverts'! Well.......personally.........I'm not going to cave. I'm going to leave the ties that bind to the point of strangulation, go out into the world and fuck my brains out. That's how I'm wired. That's my design. So, a big thanks to all of us here! Without the likes of us, who knows if mankind would have survived this long!!! CHEERS!!!! Hopefully your design has evolved just the tiniest of bits and you're not going out into the world fucking everything in sight WITHOUT a condom.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 10, 2017 11:52:32 GMT -5
Can a "Whore Card" only be redeemed in a marriage/relationship which is 100% sexless? Or is it acceptable to cash in one's WC when there is inconsistent sex? What if there is sex, but not as often as one person in the relationship wants it? I have no experience with them but I would have to say it would surely be 100% sexless. Surely no one wants to be touched by someone who may have had sex a couple of nights or weeks ago by another person. Absolutely. I neglected to consider the fact that a "whore card" is something, by definition, that someone else "gives" to someone else. (as in, permission)
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 10, 2017 11:15:50 GMT -5
Enjoy your vacation with your wife. She's your ideal travel partner!! Enjoy your travels. Learn something new. Explore the different culture. Take in the beauty. Try not to dwell on what you don't have. Focus on the wonderful things that brought you two together. Wouldn't it be perfect if she could just make you 100% happy? Of course. Who wouldn't dream about the "perfect" spouse. But life isn't perfect. On the other hand, it's pretty damn good a lot of the time. Does some guy out there have it better than you? Maybe. But you can be damn sure someone has it much worse. You both have your health. (I'm assuming, since you're going on vacation) Don't focus on the negative. No one wants to find themselves on their death bed, reflecting back on their life, wanting to kick themselves for wasting so much time dwelling on what didn't make them happy. Have a GREAT holiday!!
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 10, 2017 10:52:50 GMT -5
Can a "Whore Card" only be redeemed in a marriage/relationship which is 100% sexless? Or is it acceptable to cash in one's WC when there is inconsistent sex? What if there is sex, but not as often as one person in the relationship wants it?
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 10, 2017 10:40:35 GMT -5
"It is often the case that people won't make an effort to do something unless they need or wanted to first. But just because they didn't need to or have an urge to want to does not mean you can't participate and enjoy it." Responsive Desire. Very high percentage of women fall under this category. Where most males simply have sexual urges daily, women (not all) most often feel sexual urge in RESPONSE to something. ie: foreplay. So Yes, there are occasions when people say they're not in the mood, but if they just get started, all of a sudden they're in the mood. This may be what you're referring to as "Can, but won't." You call it complacency. I call it low libido. Because there is a difference between In the mood for sex and Not in the mood for sex She still does not feel the urge. Sure, she can participate without the urge. Enjoy it? Maybe sometimes. why 'enjoy it maybe sometimes'. Enjoy it sometimes. Meaning low libido doesn't mean non-existent libido in some cases. For me, I have always been low. I have never been with anyone with a lower libido than I. So sometimes I had an initial urge to have sex. Sometimes I didn't feel an urge, but eventually had responsive desire. Sometimes I felt neither. The older I got, the less I had the initial urge. Then it was mostly responsive desire. Now, it's neither. My point is, a person can enjoy sex even if they don't think they want to have sex at that particular moment, yes. (The can, but won't. Per your statement) But for LL's -- or let me speak about myself only. Sometimes, yes, there was enjoyment even when I didn't particularly feel an initial urge. Sometimes there wasn't. Enjoy it? Maybe sometimes.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 9, 2017 12:27:12 GMT -5
A couple of my posts have have drawn comments about expecting sex when someone really isn't in the mood. The phrase starfish sex which I presume is laying motionless and taking it has been used. I don't advocate forcing sex on someone who really doesn't want to regardless of whether they reluctantly consent or not. Not in any way shape or form! My view is relatively simple when it comes to sex (my view which of course is not fact just my view!) Sex drive is more complex than: In the mood for sex or Not in the mood for sex I personally have been neither of the above many many times. Not horny but when invited to play was happy to agree. Real examples of this have happened several times over the years. Flopped in to bed just wanting to go to sleep, 10 minutes later wife initiates and I agree. Just because I wasn't feeling horny, just because I was ready to sleep does not mean that I couldn't have and enjoy sex with my partner. I am sure my refuser for a large % of the time is refusing simply because she is happy without and NOT because she really does not want to or can't. It's not out of spite that she refuses, it's not even deliberate its more about complacency than anything else. The difference between 'I really don't want to do this' and 'actually I was perfectly happy not to tonight' is massive. I have previously used the phrase 'it's not that she can't it's that she won't'. It is often the case that people won't make an effort to do something unless they need or wanted to first. But just because they didn't need to or have an urge to want to does not mean you can't participate and enjoy it. "It is often the case that people won't make an effort to do something unless they need or wanted to first. But just because they didn't need to or have an urge to want to does not mean you can't participate and enjoy it." Responsive Desire. Very high percentage of women fall under this category. Where most males simply have sexual urges daily, women (not all) most often feel sexual urge in RESPONSE to something. ie: foreplay. So Yes, there are occasions when people say they're not in the mood, but if they just get started, all of a sudden they're in the mood. This may be what you're referring to as "Can, but won't." You call it complacency. I call it low libido. Because there is a difference between In the mood for sex and Not in the mood for sex She still does not feel the urge. Sure, she can participate without the urge. Enjoy it? Maybe sometimes.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 9, 2017 11:25:17 GMT -5
"It's not that she can't, it's that she won't." Won't what? Feel the same desire as you? She won't pretend to have a sexual urge? That statement implies your wife has the ability to have a sexual urge, but she refuses to, simply out of spite. Why would she do that? Do you think she actually has a much higher desire, but she refuses to express it? In other words, "She can.....But she won't." Can what? Can have sex as much as you would prefer? Of course. Anyone "can" have sex. Is that what you want? Or do you want her to WANT to have sex? Because there's a huge difference. She can't or won't. Either way. Would it resolve your feelings of undesirability if she engaged in sexual relations with you purely out of selflessness? What if she did, because she can, only to please you? Would you be content knowing that it wasn't fueled by actual sexual desire? Seems like you might feel rejected because you're feeling she doesn't "desire" you. But you say your marriage is not bad, other than the lack of sex. Maybe she does desire you, just not in the way you want to be desired. Maybe your definition of desire is just different than hers. The problem is, a person can't demand another person to sexually desire them. You might have to decide if her deficit is non-negotiable. The bottom line is, if your wife truly "can, but won't," do something out of vindictiveness, control or spite, then why on earth would you stay with her? This is why I like this site! I'm getting a different slant on things that sometimes differs from what my own somewhat bitter (at times) mind thinks of. In other words thanks. However, often I think like this for a very simple reason. There are days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not particularly 'in the mood'. If my wife initiated I would not turn her away because it's not difficult, it's not particularly time consuming, it's not hugely tiring, there are no cost implications, no baby sitter is required and i wouldn't feel that it's particularly fair to dismiss her advance just because I was happy not to. There is a HUGE difference between I really am not in the mood to do this vs I hadn't given it a second thought because I'm happy without this tonight. Just because someone is happy without sex tonight does NOT necessarily mean that they would be unhappy with sex tonight. I suspect (I don't know for a fact) that my wife is at the 'I'm perfectly happy not to tonight' phase more often than the 'I really don't want to do this' phase which is why it causes frustration and upset. I find it hugely odd that me and a lot of people I know for that fact went from a once a month sexual encounter to a 3,4 even 5 times a week encounter the second we agreed to have conception sex. Isn't it funny that 3 times a week is so easy for this period but 3 times a month during general life is like asking for the earth to be moved for you? It's not that she does it out of spite, it's more like she doesn't need to and therefore doesn't bother! I believe it's complacency! I read an article written by a sex therapist once that said a runner will often not be in the mood to go out again for yet another run and forcing yourself to put on those running trainers is sometimes a really big battle of will. But when they get out there they enjoy their run and they feel much better for having gone. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is not possible for her but I judge it based on what I would be like with her and I know I wouldn't reject simply because I wasn't already feeling horny. As to your first point -- days/nights where I would be perfectly happy not to have sex and I'm not in the mood but if my wife initiated I would not turn her away -- Having sex when a person is LL is not simply a matter of, well I'm not really feelin' it right now, but my partner is, so I should just do it. Your scenario involves two persons (presumably) that normally WANT to have sex, but maybe just aren't in the mood, tired, stressed -- fill in the blank. So of course, if you love a person, even if having sex just wasn't even on your radar at a particular time, but all of a sudden your partner is feeling in the mood, of course you wouldn't deny. But that's because YOU NORMALLY HAVE A SEX DRIVE. For me, and perhaps this is not the situation with your wife, but I don't deny simply because I don't feel horny at that particular moment. I don't ever feel a sexual urge. In my case, it's not that I'm just not putting in the effort or the energy or being "complacent". I can't really comment on someone who would go from five times a week while trying to conceive, then back to once a month afterwards. Except that maybe -- maybe they still didn't really enjoy it but wanted a child so badly that they did it. I'm not saying this is ethical or moral or loving. I'm only saying, maybe they do it even though they don't want to, just to conceive. So yeah, they PHYSICALLY CAN have sex, (such as your wife, perhaps) but really, If they don't willingly WANT to, why would YOU want them to? Just seems like you WANT your wife to WANT to have sex, either initially, on her own, OR even just because YOU want to, and she loves you, so she should do it even if she's not in the mood, she's tired, whatever the excuse is. I always find the sex to ----fill in the blank, analogies quite funny. In my opinion, there are no reasonable analogies. Do you really want to have sex with someone who is dreading it, like they dread to jog? Yeah, no one wants to run. I run. I don't like it. I do it, to stay in shape. Doesn't make me happy. I hate it the entire time I'm doing it. Never get a runner's high. Yes, it's a battle of will. EVERY damn time. I just want to punch running in its stupid face. Is that how your partner should feel about making love to you? Also, in my opinion, you can't equate having sex with any other chore, job, exercise, what ever. Because sex is such a personal, intimate thing. You either feel the urge or you don't. So yeah, you can say no one likes to do the dishes, but you do them. So why can't you just "do sex" even though you don't want to do it. Well, it's because being intimate is exactly that. It's intimate. A person who is truly LL, can't simply conjure up some sexual urge where it doesn't exist.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 6, 2017 18:39:01 GMT -5
But you can't compare a compromise on a thermostat with a compromise with sex. You want sex five times a week. She wants sex once a week. You use your logical brains to compromise at three times a week. It's wonderful in theory. It's the very definition of compromise. And it works wonderfully when you're deciding how many times a week you're deciding to eat Mexican food for dinner. But now you know she only wants sex once. Actually had to use your best arguments to convince her to agree on three times a week. You KNOW those other two times -- she doesn't really want to do it. You actually want to have sex -- the most intimate personal act two people can do -- you want to engage in sex, knowing if she were king it would only be once a week? I'm not saying either position is wrong. You're not wrong to want what you want. But you can't make someone want something they don't want. Desire is not negotiable. You WANT your partner to WANT to have sex with you. (not you, specifically, just people, in general) When they don't, it's not wrong. It just is. And if you do want something your partner doesn't want, you're not wrong. You're just different.
GREATCOASTAL
"Take your example of compromising at 20. You are dealing with a arrogant,complacent partner. What's going to happen? The setting will not be changed, due to her complacency. The setting will be switched back due to her complacency and arrogance to even acknowledge that any compromise was reached at all. The setting will be forgotten about time and time again due to her complacency. The setting will be switched back when ever she wants it due to her arrogance. Your compromise will mean nothing, meaningless words, over-ridden by her actions.
Only one of you will be happy.
You, on the other hand have been trained that being a strong male is one who can compromise and keep the peace by constantly caving, giving in, remaining complacent, all in the name of being strong and able to take it like a man.
She knows this and uses it against you every chance she gets"
Seriously, if someone stays in a relationship where they feel their partner is arrogant and "uses" things against them, I think they might have more than a few issues to deal with of their own.
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