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Post by sunniedays on Jan 6, 2017 18:20:46 GMT -5
"It's not that she can't, it's that she won't."
Won't what? Feel the same desire as you? She won't pretend to have a sexual urge? That statement implies your wife has the ability to have a sexual urge, but she refuses to, simply out of spite. Why would she do that? Do you think she actually has a much higher desire, but she refuses to express it? In other words, "She can.....But she won't." Can what? Can have sex as much as you would prefer? Of course. Anyone "can" have sex. Is that what you want? Or do you want her to WANT to have sex? Because there's a huge difference.
She can't or won't. Either way. Would it resolve your feelings of undesirability if she engaged in sexual relations with you purely out of selflessness? What if she did, because she can, only to please you? Would you be content knowing that it wasn't fueled by actual sexual desire? Seems like you might feel rejected because you're feeling she doesn't "desire" you. But you say your marriage is not bad, other than the lack of sex. Maybe she does desire you, just not in the way you want to be desired. Maybe your definition of desire is just different than hers. The problem is, a person can't demand another person to sexually desire them.
You might have to decide if her deficit is non-negotiable. The bottom line is, if your wife truly "can, but won't," do something out of vindictiveness, control or spite, then why on earth would you stay with her?
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 6, 2017 17:27:42 GMT -5
"It's wrong to wake up in the middle of a marriage, shrug your shoulders, then passively and unilaterally decide you're no longer interested in sex. That is an egregious infidelity. And it's just plain mean.
But what if it's your truth? Ok. So it's infidelity. Now what? It is what it is. You can't MAKE someone interested in something they're asserting that they're not interested in. As with any form of infidelity, the offended party can CHOOSE to stay with the person committing the infidelity, or they can CHOOSE to leave.
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 6, 2017 17:05:22 GMT -5
"So there are many people on this site who are in very unhappy marriages full stop. Forget sex, there are a host of other significant issues that seem to be a destroying the relationship. Thankfully that isn't me (yet). The ONLY issue in my marriage is the intimacy although I can see how over the next 10 years this issue could lead to another and then that could lead to another and so on. Without further ado I wanted to share an idea as per the title. If I were the one with the lower sex drive (and I've tried to be completely honest to myself about this) I would never dismiss my wife in the manner I am dismissed. I would look at it and think.... ....hmm, you married her, fancy her, think she's kind, funny and a nice person. One day someone else will think the same but they may offer the physical relationship she craves. What are you doing to stop her from going? It's simply not enough to consider yourself perfect or even plenty good enough to rule out the appeal of others. It borders on arrogance and at the very least is the definition of complacency."
Rejected101:
You don't mention the manner in which you were/are dismissed. No one who truly loves someone should ever treat them rudely or with disrespect.
Is it the fact that your wife refuses you which causes your unhappiness, or is it the way she goes about refusing you?
You say that your marriage isn't unhappy full stop; that the only issue is the intimacy, yet you close your post by stating her behavior borders on arrogance. Is she aware that you consider her borderline arrogant?
When you put yourself in her position, as you say you have, what solutions have you come up with? How do you think YOU would change yourself, if you were the refuser?
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 14, 2016 13:24:24 GMT -5
It's obvious I don't belong here. Good luck.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 13, 2016 22:08:27 GMT -5
Intimacy is hugging and kissing and holding hands. I've personally never felt any form of "bonding" going on when my husband's penis was in my mouth. Nor did I experience intimacy when his tongue was between my legs. Come on. That's sex!! Call it what it is! Not that it's not enjoyable or wrong, but please don't call it bonding or intimate. Intimacy, bonding, is having your partner hold your hand while you lie in a recliner with a chemo IV in your arm. Or holding your partner throughout the night after the death of a parent. Or holding hands while your child walks across the stage to receive their college degree. How is dressing up in a nurses uniform and letting your partner tie you to the bed intimate? Come on, people. It's not. It's sex Yes, making love can be a bonding experience. But giving your partner a hand job or oral sex isn't intimate or bonding. It's raw, down and dirty sex. It's basically having an "urge" relieved. If it's so important in a marriage or relationship, then why are there so many situations where you hear, "well, the sex is amazing out of this world mind-blowing" but there was nothing else. It's the oldest story around: the girl goes for the bad boy, because, oh my god he's such a turn on. And guess who loses in the end? The girl whose partner will F her every day and twice on Sunday, but he's got nothing else to give. So pick what you want. I choose the partner who's kind, loving, smart, ambitious, generous, a great parent, a best friend, a partner in life.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 12, 2016 22:12:26 GMT -5
Thank you, grantgeek. I guess I mostly get hung up on everyone saying it's such a need -- a "normal, basic, natural" need for EVERYONE, then why don't I feel it? Am I not normal? I mean, what's the point for me then? Apparently every other aspect of my being is of no consequence for my husband. Almost all of the posts indicate that they can think of nothing else but the lack of sex in their relationships. The only time I think about it is when I'm thinking WHY am I NOT thinking about it?
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 12, 2016 21:39:30 GMT -5
Yes, EVEN a paraplegic can find a way to engage in sexual activities. That's not some new, radical realization that we all have never heard before. Of course, my hands work. Of course my mouth works. Of course my vagina works. It's not a physical movement issue. It's a hormone/brain issue.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 11, 2016 12:37:53 GMT -5
The argument some make about doing something sexual to /with their partner to please them and out of love is difficult for me to buy into. Mountainrunner gives college bf oral sex even though it caused her pain because she knew he loved it. I'm sure the bigger truth is she does it for him because she knows it (sex) will be reciprocated at some point and then she will be pleasured. Obviously I know none of the members in this forum, but I would bet heavily that very few would enjoy pleasuring their partner in some way 1-3-5-7 times a week, all the while feeling nothing except guilt and -- well, nothing. I KNOW what it feels like. I did it for a year. That advice holds no water with me, especially coming from persons who have never felt it. Yes, I get it. So happy for you. Yes, I used to give my husband oral sex even though I didn't particularly care for it, but I'd do it, because I knew that it made him horny, and I knew that after 5 or so minutes I too would be feeling some pleasured. There is not one male in this forum who would agree to perform oral sex on their partner every morning for the rest of his life, feeling nothing, with the knowledge that they weren't going to have the same pleasure at some point. For women, sexual feelings start in the mind. Their has to be SOMETHING that instigates their bodies to be physically prepared for sex. Of course I could lay there and it would be possible for my husband to insert his penis, even without me being one bit willing, or open my mouth or cup my hand around him. Of course. I know I could. Because I did it for a year. And as horrible as I felt, how inadequate I felt then, I feel a thousand times worse now.
If my husband decides to divorce me, I'd be devastated. But from reading the posts from all the "victims" of the "refusers" it's probably likely. What makes me sad is the thought that someone would leave a 30-year relationship, a family, a history, after 30 years of sex (not even taking into account the 15 years of sex he had before he married me. I understand sex is important; is it that important that you'd be willing to give up EVERYTHING else in your life? I don't know.
And being assigned the identifier of "refuser" is super awesome, by the way.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 9, 2016 11:09:49 GMT -5
Thank you all for your kind replies and sensitive advice. I want to say to GREATCOASTAL, no offense taken on your inquiry as to being asexual. I happen to have researched that a little, having stumbled upon it in while researching other symptoms, solutions, etc... No, I would not consider myself asexual. Only because from what (little) I know about it, it seems to be something you are born like, or at least are aware of by the time you reach puberty. I would say definitely not asexual. I have had what I would describe as a normal woman's sexuality. By that, I mean I wouldn't consider myself along the realm of a sex addict, but definitely have enjoyed sex for the last 30 years of my life. And that would include sexual contact as well as just physical sexual attraction for, say, a handsome man, etc. As far as intimacy with my husband, I'm fine holding his hand or sitting together, watching tv, or kissing him goodbye in the morning. I love him. We have this 30-year history together. We raised a family, created a life together. We enjoy the company of each other. We rarely fight. We've never had a period of separation. (due to marriage problems, I mean) Not only do I love him, I really like him also. But to answer one poster's question (I don't remember whose) about intimacy: I tend to stay away from him with regards to, say, cuddling, spooning in bed, etc. Not because I have an aversion to it, but because I'm afraid of what it might lead to. He says it won't lead to him wanting sex, but I have a hard time believing that because why, all of a sudden, would that not make him think about sex? It always has before. HIS libido is not gone. With regard to those who gave analogies like, "I don't want to clean my toilet, but I do it anyway." Or, "I don't want to change a diaper, but I do it anyway." I can't even tell you how many times I've read that advice. It's really just so trite. Listen, I understand we all do shit we don't want to do, but we do it because we have to. My situation isn't the old-as-time argument of "I'm not in the mood." "I have a headache." "I'm exhausted from taking care of the kids." It's not even close to that. OF COURSE, probably every adult alive has consented to be sexual with their partner when they weren't "in the mood" or just wasn't feelin' it, but they do it because they presumably love their partner and want to make them happy. That's not even remotely how I feel. As far as the physiological aspect of sex: The lubrication, arousal process, of course, was dim for me during the last years of sexual relations. Of course. Because I FELT NOTHING. Remember when I said, try to imagine lying next to your brother/sister, and being told, ok, now get horny. Become aroused. How many people would be able to accomplish that? And hell, yes, when that started, I began to panic, thinking why am I not attracted to the man I love? But over the year or two, I realized, it's not just him I'm not sexually aroused by. It's everything sexually related. I just can't think of an explanation -- or a way to paint a picture for anyone to explain the utter lack of sexual -- anything -- that I feel. I'm not offended by sex. I don't turn my head when I/we happen to be watching something sexual in a movie, tv. etc. I'm not uncomfortable with it. I don't have any kind of aversion. It's just a void. I feel nothing. Let's just use the "doing the dishes" comparison. Yes, we do the dishes because we have to, otherwise...well, we know the consequences. How would you like to live your life with the knowledge that you're having sex and being intimate with the person you love, and the reason you're doing it feels the same inside to you as washing the dishes?? Or changing a diaper? Look, no one can compare mundane chores like cleaning the house, or unwelcome tasks like going to the gym when obviously almost NO ONE enjoys them, to the most enjoyable, sensitive and intimate act two people will engage in. It's just not a valid comparison, and it's a weak argument, in my opinion. I'm just devastated that I feel this way. I'm devastated that it affects the person I love. I don't want him to be unhappy. But also, I don't want to be unhappy. I have a wonderful life. I'm grateful every day that I'm alive, and that I was able to see my children grow to be the adults they are. I love my career. I love my friends and family. But I'm here to tell you that the loss of libido mutes my days and nights like something I cannot explain. I'm devastated. But also, I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated that it seems I can't make anyone understand the way I feel. I've been told that sex is a NEED. I get it. I do. Believe me, I've heard it/read it hundreds of times. But you know what? I DON'T HAVE THAT NEED IN ME. Not by choice; By circumstance. And you know what else? I'm not gonna die. It doesn't make me feel like I want to die. I don't feel like I can't go on....blah blah blah. I try not to think about it constantly, because I have a lot of good years left. (hopefully). And on days when I'm overwhelmed by life -- I sometimes get more than frustrated. I feel anger. On those days I'm angry that it's my fault. I'm angry that pharmaceutical companies seem to have no limitations with formulating medications for men who have erectile problems. I'm angry and saddened by the fact that women are told that they can inject potentially life-threatening hormones into themselves, in the OFF CHANCE that MAYBE it will have a positive effect for their sexual problems. It's frustrating to have to defend myself with regard to the "Well, you know, sexual urge is 'A PHYSICAL NEED'". Yeah I know. I get it. I do. But you know what? Some day my husband's sexual urge will diminish and dwindle as well. I just hope when he goes through the experience, he's still married to me. I hope he'll be able to look back and be happy that he stuck it out with me. Because in the end, I believe that what people really "NEED" are companions that they not only love, but that they like too.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 8, 2016 17:45:46 GMT -5
Grantgeek:
Thank you for being kind. I have actually begun to research hypnosis; although I have previously experimented with it years ago for a different situation and didn't find it helpful to me. As far as "hands and mouth" -- I don't know why it seems so plainly obvious to me but still I can't make anyone understand, that yes, of course, I have a mouth and hands. And no, there's no aversion to sex. It's just like whatever used to be in me is gone. I can't explain it. The only way I can think of to try to analogize it is maybe if you think of having sex with someone you would NEVER willing have sex with; say, someone told me I had to have sex with my brother. or my dad -- I know this sounds ridiculous -- but that's the only way I can explain what it feels like. Not that I feel like I'm having sex with my dad when I had sex with my husband. But try to imagine working up some desire to have sex with someone you WOULD NEVER naturally feel desire to have sex with. THAT'S what it feels like. And not because I don't want to have sex with my husband or have aversion to him. I'm just trying to explain the feeling of lack of desire that I feel. So of course, oral sex or manual manipulation seems just as unappealing to me as vaginal intercourse. Or maybe like if you're a guy, and someone said, "you must go have sex with this person" except that person was so unappealing to the man that he would not feel one bit like, hey, maybe I'll get an erection. Or if you told a heterosexual man that he has to have sex with or AT LEAST oral sex with another man. How desirous do you think he would feel at that moment when they're lying naked next to each other. Nothing. That's what it feels like.
As far as condoning my husband to get sex from someone else, I don't know. I mean I feel pretty shitty already. I'd like to think I'm open-minded enough to allow that, but in reality, I don't think anyone who truly loves their spouse could happily live with that situation. I guess I'm just tired, so tired, of being considered the spouse causing so much unhappiness simply because menopause; a physiological normal process, has caused me to suffer this symptom. I don't understand why one side is allowed to argue, "sex is a PHYSICAL need" yet I'm not allowed to argue that menopause is a physical process.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 8, 2016 17:26:09 GMT -5
wewbeb: Yes, absolutely I meant, I am NOT getting sex anywhere else! Yes, I have done extensive research as to "Female Viagra". I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea; however, I AM hypersensitive to putting any unproven chemicals in my body due to my health history. Most of the information I've gleaned regarding Flibanserin has boiled down to the thinking that it will be pulled from the shelves in a few years time because of “serious dangers to women, with little benefit” to them. One particularly frightening quote I read from a reproductive physician was "This is a product that is neither very effective nor particularly safe. It won't benefit many women and at the same time the approval comes with a lot of restrictions, setting a precedent that a drug for women's sexual health has to be treated in a very special way." I do understand that it is a physical need. Query, though, If it is so important a need, why do women AND men lose the desire eventually? It's unfortunate that many women, myself included, lose desire due to the natural processes of aging often much earlier in age than most men. But men, if they live long enough, will also have some time experiencing the lack of sexual desire. So if it is a physical "need", why then would ANYONE stop feeling the need? Am I not a "Physical" being because I'm not feeling it?? Taking in calories to sustain life is a "Physical Need". If one was stranded on a desert island and had no sexual outlet, but yet had unlimited food and water, they would not die. And as to your advice to get "handy" with my husband: I have read this advice numerous times. Like manual manipulation of someone's genitals is not a sex act? Yes, obviously I could "physically" manipulate my husband. How is that any different than having vaginal intercourse? Sex starts with a spark; some kind of ignition that makes a person want to have sex (including manually stimulating someone) Obviously I have two functioning arms and hands. Do you understand that it's not about that?? Hormones, or lack thereof, are not responsible for making a person's arms and hands function. Yes, I could do that. How enjoyable is that gonna be for him? Knowing that I feel NOTHING. And I'm not blaming him. I understand that it's me that is lacking. Try to imagine living EVERY day, NEVER feeling that spark? Not for your spouse, not for some random good-looking person walking by, nothing. I guess I'm just sad because I'm the villain for something I can't control, and for a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
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Post by sunniedays on Sept 8, 2016 16:01:39 GMT -5
After reading numerous threads on this site, I've yet to come across one that even slightly resembles the depressing situation I'm in. Many threads refer to how demeaning, demoralizing and depressed the high libido'd spouse becomes in a sexless marriage. I'm the lower-libido'd spouse in my marriage, and I can assure you that I am as depressed, if not more so, than my HL spouse.
We've been married for 20 years, but dated exclusively for ten years prior to marriage. I am 52. My husband is 57. For the first 18 years of our marriage, we lived the normal expectation of story-book marriage: cultivating our careers, having two children (who are both now in college), moving up within our jobs, etc... We had (what I thought) was a typical sex life-sometimes feast, sometimes famine, but never anything to complain about.
When I was 39, with two children under the age of 9, I was diagnosed with stage III breast cancer. I proceeded to endure 19 weeks of chemotherapy, surgery, and 35 days of radiation therapy. After 11 years, I'm still cancer free, for which I am so grateful for. Unfortunately, chemotherapy induced premature menopause. At age 42, I ceased ovulating and menstruating, which caused the downward spiral of my sex drive. At the beginning of menopause, sexual intercourse was once a week. This may seem like not enough for some people, but we were very busy raising two active children, only 16 months apart, while each one of us was working full time at careers we loved. That gradually dwindled to once a month, which gradually turned into once every two months, and ultimately zero intercourse for the last 18 months of my marriage.
My husband and I have honestly discussed "my" problem many times. I believe he tries to understand the way I'm feeling, but if you've never been the non-libido person in a relationship, I don't think you would or could ever understand the lack of ANY physical urge, flutterings, stirrings of a sexual nature for not only your spouse, the person you love the most, but for ANYONE. Not only am I living with the fact that I'm devoid of one of the most amazing feelings anyone can possess; but I'm also living with the fact that I'm making the man I love so unhappy. It's not as simple as those who say, "When you love someone, you'll do things you "don't feel like doing" just to give them pleasure. I don't know how I can explain the fact that it's not that I'm too tired, or too stressed, or not "in the mood". There's nothing.
I've read numerous websites, blogs, forums....etc... on the issue of no libido, sexless marriage. They range from the non-helpful to downright insulting and hurtful. It seems that I cannot find one single site that is slightly similar to my situation, so they really don't seem to be able to help me. But I'm open to any suggestions (anything new, that is) that might possibly help me improve my sexual desire.
Let me say up front: I am not overweight; nor is my husband. I am "getting it" from someone other than my husband. I run 3 to 5 miles daily. I haven't let myself go; nor has my husband. We are both professionals. We have both worked in careers we love for the entirety of our marriage. We have vacation homes and travel often. We get along completely fine, other that the physical aspect. We hold hands, sleep in the same bed, enjoy each others' company. I have no sexual trauma in my background. I have no underlying issues with pornography. I have never had any issue with reaching orgasm. Ever. I will not engage in HRT, as studies are unclear whether it increases cancer risks, and that's a risk I'm not willing to take. Also, HRT doesn't increase desire, but only addresses pain associated with intercourse due to lack of lubrication and help with other menopause-related symptoms, of which I have none. The advice to "just start to engage in sex, and soon you'll find yourself enjoying it!!" makes me cringe and want to jump off a cliff. When I recall the last half a year or so when my husband and I were still having sex, I just remember that all I was thinking was, I feel nothing. Please let this be over.
I know my husband is unhappy. I know he will probably leave me eventually. He knows I love him and I know he loves me. But trying to explain the complete and utter lack of sexual desire to someone who has never experienced it, is like trying to convince an Atheist that God exists.
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