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Post by sunniedays on Mar 7, 2017 11:23:32 GMT -5
Yep, just like herpes, but nowhere nearly as fun to acquire. lol you're hilarious
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Post by sunniedays on Mar 3, 2017 18:23:16 GMT -5
Is there a forum for people who are the polar opposite to those on this site (AVEN doesn't count as it is a sexual orientation forum. If there is, please feel free to identify it and if no one knows of one, why do you guys think there isn't there one? And there are people like Sunniedays, who just come here to talk about how she is better than people who want sex. Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh waaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 21, 2017 16:30:32 GMT -5
Almost two years of counseling -- yet in your mind, I simply gave up. Okay. Now who's self-righteous? I have never claimed to have all the answers. I only have my opinion and experience. Just because it's in disagreement with your experience doesn't mean I don't care about what anyone else thinks. Absolutely, feel free to think whatever you wish about my husband, if that makes you feel better about yourself. I never ever said I didn't "like" sex. Nor do I "proclaim" it with a sense of pride, and think I'm better than lesser beings. I do not attempt to appear as a victim. I have never felt like a victim in my marriage. Because I would never allow myself to be a victim in my marriage. Unlike some people here. As far as empathy: I do have empathy for people. especially those who TRULY are victims. I deal with victims every day of my life. Because I don't find much empathy for persons who "endure" for years in a relationship they can surely leave, does not make me devoid of empathy. Forgive me for assuming a grown, intelligent, mature person would be able to realize a problem and be able to change their situation. "I guess I should leave" was punctuated by a question mark. It was a question. I don't ask that anyone "beg" me to do anything. So wash your hands of me. Have a nice day. Does anyone else think we should stop feeding this detestable troll? LoL
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 21, 2017 15:07:48 GMT -5
So since that was your original purpose, has it been fulfilled? Are you still in counseling? Have you gathered all the information you need? If you have, what is your purpose here now? I guess I should leave? Because they have been taught that they should wait for marriage for sex or that the most ethical place to have sex is in marriage. Also, most people will prefer having sex in a committed relationship. I think you misunderstood me. My point is that sex happens outside the bond of marriage, arguably, more than within the bonds of marriage. Meaning, I don't think the primary purpose for people to marry is because they want to have sex. My opinion and my hope would be that two people choose each other primarily because they desire a life with this one person, out of everyone else. Do you actually know anyone who had zero premarital sex? Even my Mormon friends were having sex before marriage. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are many many people who actually do wait for marriage before having sex. I don't think I know of any, though. I agree that most people prefer having sex in a committed relationship. But sex as the primary reason to get married? Have you ever asked someone why they were marrying a specific person and been told, "I'm marrying Jane because I want to have sex." But do you love her? Do you want to share your life with her? Did you pick her because she's a good person? Does she want the same things as you do? Do you have the same goals and values? It seems strange that while a person is up at the alter, committing to vows before God or whomever, and their family and friends, that in the back of their mind they are thinking, "blah blah blah, I get to have sex." "Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. " "I disagree with this. Frankly, if my spouse had been a sexual person, it probably would have made up for all of her other failings. " If two people are having consistent, mutually enjoyable sex, it deletes the fact that they treat you horribly? (not you, specifically) Of course if two people are amazingly compatible sexually, it's gonna be easier to overlook the fact that the house may not be as spotless as it could be. Or that your spouse never returns the back rub. But does even the most amazing sex allow someone to overlook being treated unkindly on a consistent basis? Or continually put down or demeaned? What the hell kind of life is that? Treat my like shit, as long as the sex is good? "So from this comment, I assume that the counseling has ended? Were all issues resolved then?" Yes. 18 months of first weekly then biweekly couples and individual counseling. Were all the issues resolved? We only had one issue. And yes. "Maybe there are other aspects of the relationship he values as much. Or he may believe that the pain he endures does not compare to the pain that might result to your children. Just a thought." I absolutely agree with the first part of your statement. He does value all the other aspects as much. Which is why we're still together, I would think. Pain to children is a completely valid reason to choose to avoid divorce. I agree. Two points though. My children are over 21 years old; still painful to experience your parents' divorce, but probably less so than when they are younger. And my parents were divorced. While I wouldn't choose it, it's not a death sentence for children. Both my brother and I have evolved into adults who have completed college, graduate school, haven't been divorced, never been arrested, still love both our parents, (and their spouses) don't kick dogs. LOL While I can't read my husband's mind, causing pain to our children by way of divorce was never brought up during counseling. "So does he agree with me? I think he must." He might. But unless you directly ask him, you won't know. That's a figure of speech. I think he must, other wise he would have divorced me. I told him in a hundred different ways, if he couldn't be happy staying with me, he should absolutely leave. I told him I would never utter an unkind word about him, whatever his decision was. We went over and over and over every possible nook and cranny of the how's, why's, what if's, this is how I feel, this is how I feel. He doesn't have any reason to feel roped in. I assume he said everything he wanted to say about the way he felt in 18 months of counseling and 30 years of relationship. Should I keep asking him daily if he's sure he wants to be with me? That's pathetic. He's a grown man. He certainly is capable of voicing an opinion or thought or emotion that he wants me to be aware of. Why do I keep coming here? Honestly, I log on every once in a while when I'm not in trial. I guess it sucks me in. On the bright side, it keeps me from shopping online. Apparently it seems I'm not welcome. 'I guess I should leave?" If you are trying to get people here to beg you to stay, that is very childish. You have attempted to evade the question by asking another question. So I will ask you again, why are you here? You disagree with many people here, you take offense at many things that are written, and you claim that your marriage is very fulfilling without sex. So I will ask you again, why are you here? The only answer you gave was that you are sucked in. That is nonresponsive. And if you are only coming here to avoid shopping online, there are literally millions of other sites you could frequent. Why don't you find one that supports your position? "Apparently it seems I'm not welcome." Again, you are using a very childish tactic to attempt to see if anyone will beg you to stay. I don't think anyone will. I guess I just find it sad that a grown woman would be so self-righteous about not liking sex, and even proclaim it with a sense of pride, as if it makes her better than lesser beings. I don't know what you do in court, but I doubt you are a lawyer because of your circuitous reasoning and attacking a person rather than his/her issues. You also refuse to answer any questions without attempting to turn the question around and appear as a victim. As to empathy, you are totally devoid of it. There are pages and pages written here of the pain that refused spouses have endured for years and sometimes more. You totally ignore every painful story here, while you loudly proclaim that your situation is worse than that of any refused spouse. I also find it very telling that you have not and will not tell your husband about this site. I believe that you think that he is not as satisfied with your relationship as you want to believe. Also, I believe that you think that he will find that there are lots of other people here in the same situation. I don't know if you have always been so self-righteous, but I honestly pity you. You may reply, but I am going to wash my hands of you. You believe that you have all the answers, and you don't care about what anyone else thinks. Your husband may stay with you, but I honestly believe that he still wishes that he had found someone who cared enough about his natural needs to keep trying and not simply give up. I would think that since you have 1000 good things about your marriage, you would at least keep trying to make some effort to satisfy him, however, I know you will not. Almost two years of counseling -- yet in your mind, I simply gave up. Okay. Now who's self-righteous? I have never claimed to have all the answers. I only have my opinion and experience. Just because it's in disagreement with your experience doesn't mean I don't care about what anyone else thinks. Absolutely, feel free to think whatever you wish about my husband, if that makes you feel better about yourself. I never ever said I didn't "like" sex. Nor do I "proclaim" it with a sense of pride, and think I'm better than lesser beings. I do not attempt to appear as a victim. I have never felt like a victim in my marriage. Because I would never allow myself to be a victim in my marriage. Unlike some people here. As far as empathy: I do have empathy for people. especially those who TRULY are victims. I deal with victims every day of my life. Because I don't find much empathy for persons who "endure" for years in a relationship they can surely leave, does not make me devoid of empathy. Forgive me for assuming a grown, intelligent, mature person would be able to realize a problem and be able to change their situation. "I guess I should leave" was punctuated by a question mark. It was a question. I don't ask that anyone "beg" me to do anything. So wash your hands of me. Have a nice day.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 17, 2017 18:33:56 GMT -5
Thank you for the nice? response. Yes, having a low libido is normal for me. It has been the norm for me (compared to my partners) for about 35 years. Perhaps it's your belief that anyone with a lower libido than yourself is not normal. That's fine. But it has been my norm for as long as I can remember. Has it prevented me from living an amazing fulfilling life? Never. With the exception of being hit with a deadly disease at 39, my life is 1,000 times better than I could have imagined. My low/lack of desire had never been an issue with me prior to having cancer. Not once. I don't think I even ever gave it a first, second, or third thought. No one complained, including me. Of course I would like to have the desire now. Of course. Who wouldn't? So in response to your first paragraph: Yes, my low/lower libido was "normal" to me. My husband married me, being fully aware, after 10 years of dating, of my libido. Now that it's completely gone, OF COURSE I wish I could feel the desire again. Those two facts aren't mutually exclusive. Lack of empathy due to hormone imbalance because I didn't respond to your statement about how your wife abused you for years? What I wanted to say was WHY would you stay with someone who treated you so badly. But I didn't want to be insensitive or rude. You imply that it's "OKAY" for a person to speak ill of their partner because they have treated you so horribly. Perhaps. But all I can think is why would you continue to endure something which is so distasteful, so horrible, so unspeakable for a spouse to do to another? Emotional, verbal, physical, abuse -- there is no excuse. You picked a person. Maybe unwisely. Then you had children (perhaps). And now you just want to call them names on the internet, instead of getting out. And apparently you finally did, which is commendable. As to raw, down and dirty sex/hand jobs not being intimate -- That's my opinion. I happen to believe there are much more intimate/bonding acts in a marriage than giving someone oral sex. Of course it's lovely. Of course it feels good. To me -- in my life experience, giving my husband a hand job isn't what I think about when I'm daydreaming about what brings us closer together, bonding us to each other as life partners. It just doesn't. That's just my opinion. I think of other things when I think about why we love each other and have stayed together for 30 years. Things that, if you subtract handjobs, oral sex-- out of the equation, you're still left with the sum of 100 other things that cause two people to love each other. If handjobs, oral sex, WHATEVER kind of sex was so soul-bonding, why would anyone pay a prostitute to engage in such activities? Why would a person want to "bond" with a prostitute? People don't pay prostitutes to care for them when they're ill. They don't pay them to comfort them in times of sorrow. They don't pay them to share touching moments with them as they watch their children graduate from college. They pay them for sex. It's sex. Can having sex bond you to your partner? Of course it can. Of course. But it can also be down and dirty, fulfilling an urge, purely tension-relieving sex. That's my point. It CAN be a bonding experience. I fully agree with you. It's just my opinion. Does having an opposing opinion from yours somehow imply a person has a hormone imbalance? I absolutely realize that some folks here have been called perverts, sluts, rapists. Of course that's horrible and absolutely not acceptable. I can't imagine anyone continuing to want to have sex, or even speak to a person who refers to them in such a manner. Whether they believed it to be true, or whether they were saying such things out of anger or attempt to control, whatever -- there's absolutely no excuse. But is the solution to be "harsh" to them in response on a website? I understand this is a site to "vent." It's my OPINION -- just an opinion, that perhaps sites like these unintentionally allow affected persons to perpetuate a harmful at worse, and unkind at best, situation. One where people continue to vent about the abuse they are suffering, while all the while not focusing on a solution or steps to follow in order to find a solution. Again, it's just my opinion. Also, I find it at the same time interesting and discouraging that when a converse opinion is stated it is met with rude replies and accusations of being a "troll." Look, I don't think ANYONE should have to live without sex and be content with that. Please don't misquote me. Yes, in my opinion, sex is not "the most basic part of marriage." Of course it IS an important part of marriage. The "MOST" important? It's my opinion -- just my opinion, that it's not the most important. But if you (not you, personally) do believe it IS the most important part of your marriage, and you're not satisfied with what you are experiencing, then for God's sake, change your situation. I never attempted to change my husband into something I thought he should be. Nor has he tried to change me. If the person you choose as a partner isn't sexually compatible with you -- let alone, treats you abusively, WHY would you WANT to experience such a bonding/intimate act with them? I apologize to anyone who felt I was "admonishing" them for "expressing frustration" here. Frustration is a normal, acceptable reaction to a frustrating situation. What I THOUGHT I was doing was expressing an opinion that when someone behaves poorly/unkind (withholding spouse) and then the "victim" responds by name-calling and disrespect, it just brings that person down to the other person's unkind level. Is it loving to treat your spouse unkindly by controlling, abusing, refusing to work at a good marriage? Of course not. Is it loving to respond to an unkind act with unkindness? In my opinion, no. Also, thank you for the passive/aggressive advice to "explore" hormone replacement therapy. As if a 13-year survivor of breast cancer with an absent libido could possibly be unaware of such treatments. I'm well-educated and I'm quite an advocate for my own health and well-being. I'm quite sure that I've researched most, if not all treatments which are beneficial in order to stabilize a person's hormones. Perhaps there are some ancient Chinese remedies that I've missed, but suffice it to say, all other hormone therapy has been thoroughly explored by myself, my primary physician and my oncologists. None are without risk. None guarantee positive results commensurate to the known risks. If it's your opinion that a person with a stage III-C breast cancer history should undergo some type of hormone/testosterone treatment, which have numerous known risks, some that are not FDA approved, which have no statistical guarantee to improve their libido, that's fine. I've decided not to risk my life on the very small chance that HRT might increase my libido. It may be your opinion that being able to "want" to have sex and having sex is important enough to risk your health. It's my opinion that I want to see my children succeed, marry, perhaps have children; enjoy my retirement with my husband, without willfully possibly putting my health/life in jeopardy. My husband is fully supportive of my choice, as I would be, if the 'shoe' was on the other foot. Again, it's my choice, after deliberate research. Maybe it wouldn't be yours, which is absolutely your prerogative. Finally, thank you for counseling me on ways to "save" my marriage. Rest easy, friend, that my marriage is in no need of saving. Is it possible that there may be a problem in the future? Of course. I'm not obtuse. Isn't that true of ANY marriage? Presently, my marriage is just fine. Would it be 100% perfect if I had some inkling of sexual desire? Sure. But you know what doesn't happen in MY marriage? Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse. Ever. With the exception of about a year and a half of intensive, difficult counselling and emotional conversations, my relationship with my husband has been everything I've ever wanted it to be. We've been happy and blessed in more ways than I could have imagined. Of course, if given the option, I would have opted out on experiencing having a deadly disease with two children under the age of 10. But I can't think of one single thing I would have traded in my life in exchange for the chance to somehow escape my experience with cancer. My husband and I have discussed all options, including divorce, extensively. Of course I wouldn't be happy if my husband decided it was in his best interests to leave me. I don't want him to leave me. I love him. But he certainly has that option, as does anyone. And I certainly don't want to stay married to someone who doesn't willingly want to stay with me. So, yes, of course, anything is possible. No one knows the future. But I assure you, my 30-year relationship with my husband is more than fine. You can disbelieve. You don't know me or my husband. I can't prove it to you. That matters not. If you want to continue to feel sad for me, you're certainly entitled to do so. I have come to this vigorous debate late.You say your up front and your husband accepts the situation and you have obviously spent a lot of time investigating this so if your both mutually on the same page what's the problem. We here, are not on the same page and lack of sex and intimacy to us is rejection. It seems everyone is taking a stance here and forgetting we here to try and get insights and yes vent sometimes. But getting back to you if your husband is accepting then there is no problem? and I would love to hear how he came to accept this situation and how he stops any resentment because we all wish we could find some middle ground I don't want to pretend that I can speak for him, but yes, we both acknowledge there was a problem. We counseled, we cried, we argued, we came to a decision. No one forced him. Quite the opposite. He was aware that he had every right to leave. No questions asked. I guess I can only explain it that we do have lack of sex, like everyone else here. But we/he/us realized that it wasn't about rejection. Not at all. And I guess we were able to find "intimacy" in other non-sexual ways. Intimacy isn't just sex. There's a lot of ways to feel intimate with a partner. I'm not saying everyone should live my life. I'm just saying this is what we did, and this is how we are living our life together. He doesn't claim resentment. Ever. Of course he wanted to know what was happening, what were the possible fixes, did I still love him? Of course. And I do. But he wasn't resentful. Or insecure. He's a kind, successful, intelligent, thoughtful man. I don't think he felt I was "rejecting" him. I'm not going to profess that I'm positive this will be the cure 100% -- no chance he'll ever leave. No one can say that with absolute assurances. but it's been great for the last two years.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 17, 2017 18:21:21 GMT -5
I will just say something again that I have said before: Low-libido people often say, "Sex isn't that important," or "Sex isn't the most important part of marriage," etc. - and following on that: "So the higher libido person shouldn't mind not getting it. Very well. If sex is such a minor part of a marriage - low-libido people should not mind if their spouse gets it somewhere else. It's only sex, right? It's not that important, is it? And on the topic of name-calling: if only my refuser had desired me, I might have been willing to tolerate some name-calling. Hey, I could give it right back to him, and do better! Which is probably why he never called me names, ha ha. I never asserted "sex isn't that important." Never. I said, in my opinion, it's not THE most important aspect of a marriage. It's absolutely important. As is choosing a partner whom you want to share the 1,000 other important things in your life with. And no, I don't think of it as a minor part, so I don't think a spouse should get it somewhere else. I think a give/take should be reached. Duh. It's the only solution. That, or find someone more compatible; or go on living your miserable life with a person that you're not compatible with. I never said that it should be fair for a higher libido partner not to get sex. It's not "only" sex. Of course it's important. It's interesting that some folks stand by the thought that sex is "the way I bond with the person I love." Sex is "the way I express my love for my partner." Sex is "the way I feel connected to my loved one." "It's not the sex, it's the intimacy that I'm being denied." But on the other hand, if a person isn't getting the amount of sex they feel is required by their standards, it's quite all right to get it somewhere else. So sex with your spouse the "intimate, bonding, love-expressing, way-you-show-love" act. Then why is it you would want to get it somewhere else? You want sex, not because it's a physical urge, but because it's all these other emotional, loving things. Then you turn around and say, well, if you won't give it to me it should be okay to get it somewhere else? Is there no "bonding, expressing your love, connecting" with some random escort or FWB? Or is it just that you're having sex? If you're having sex with an escort or FWB, do you turn off the bonding, love-expressing? After all, who wants to bond with an escort? I'm not saying these emotions people claim are false. Absolutely people can feel that sex makes them feel that they're bonding, etc. I agree. But then to turn around and say, well if I can't get it with my spouse, I'll get it elsewhere, seems disingenuous. Or is it that when a person is having sex with a FWB or escort, they're just having sex, and not "bonding"? You can't honestly assert that if your refuser had desired you, you would tolerate name-calling. I mean, maybe you would. You would tolerate being called a bitch every day, as long as he wanted to have sex with you? So it's okay for him basically not to "like" you as long as he desired your body?
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 17, 2017 17:55:08 GMT -5
I originally was made aware of this site by a coworker. I just looked into it originally because my husband and I were in counseling and I was trying to gather as much information as I could to better understand his feelings by reading other peoples' stories. You are correct in that I don't believe that sex is the primary purpose of a marriage. It's an aspect of marriage, I agree. If it is the primary purpose of marriage, why then would so many people have sex with people outside of a marital vow? They don't want to marry all those people they happen to have sex with. They just want to have sex, not get married. (I'm absolutely not opposed to premarital sex at all.) I believe when you choose a person you want to marry, you are choosing a person whom you want to build a life with. Someone you want to spend the rest of your days with, to raise children, to create a home, to spend your young years with, and someone to share your golden years with. Yes, it's a person that you choose to have sex with for the rest of your married life. Of course. So in my opinion, sex isn't THE primary purpose for marriage. If it were, people would probably have a tendency to marry a person who is a crazy, adventurous, any time willing, do anything, anywhere sexual partner, instead of picking a person whom they feel is honest, shares your religious beliefs, shares your beliefs in future plans, has similar morals and standards, has similar life goals, etc. Again, it's never been my intention to convince anyone that sex isn't an important aspect in a marriage or relationship. I don't care if anyone changes their opinion; like you, I'm just giving an opposite point of view. I don't believe I've ever stated that sexual rejection was not abuse. I absolutely believe if someone you love, and who is supposed to love you, treats you unkind, disrespectful, in an attempt to control, or just to be mean, IS abuse. Whether it's withholding sex or physical abuse, verbal abuse -- whatever -- any form of control. I don't believe I ever tried to convince anyone that sex is unimportant. On the contrary, I believe I've always stated IF it IS important to a person, and that person isn't satisfied with their spouse, sexually -- or HOWEVER, then they need to find a way to change their situation. And the only other opinion that I stated, and that I stand by, is that it IS possible for a person to have a low/lower libido than another person without it meaning that the person isn't sexually attracted to the other, doesn't love the other, or is trying to control the other. Of course, if a marriage or relationship has other problems -- substantial, irreparable issues, of course opposite sexual compatibility is going to seem huge. I've read a lot of stories that begin with how a spouse is withholding sex and how it makes the poster angry, insecure. But then the poster goes on to say that the spouse also does this or that horrible thing. Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. As far as I know, my husband doesn't know about this site. Or, actually, he may be aware of it, because I believe I mentioned it during counseling. However, having been with my husband for 30 years, I would confidently state that he wouldn't avail himself to investigate it, or any other such site. He doesn't particularly have the time or frankly the interest to read about other peoples' issues. Which is perfectly acceptable to me, because he participated fully and with great enthusiasm and heart, in counseling for about 18 months. What more could I ask for? I'm a little unclear as to your last question. Would he agree with me? I'll answer what I think you were wondering. I think he agrees with me about marriage, about what a marriage is for -- what it means to him and myself. Otherwise we would be divorced. Does he agree sex is "THE most important part of a marriage"? I don't know. But it seems like he doesn't, again, because otherwise we would be divorced. Does he think sex IS important? Of course he does. Which is why we've had sex with each other for almost 30 years. But we've also done so many other things during our relationship with each other; we've dated, we married, we've bought homes, we've changed careers, we started a family, we raised two children, we've traveled, we've started businesses, we've filed bankruptcy, we started new businesses, we enjoy each other in our leisure time, he does things with his life-long friends, I do things with my life-long friends, we do things with each others' friends, we supported each other through difficult times, deaths in each others' families, supported each other in important decisions. We have lots of plans for our future. five-year plans, 10-year plans. Plans for retirement. Plans for helping our children start their adult lives. There's no other person that I want to do these things with. We're not just roommates or friends because we don't have sex. We're life partners. Roommates and friends don't often do the things I just mentioned, regardless of how strong their friendship is. If you don't even LIKE your spouse AND you're not having sex, but still living in the same house, it may seem similar to a roommate relationship or friend relationship. When you've been in a loving relationship for 30 years, the mere fact that there comes a time where there are no sexual relations doesn't therefore designate you as a roommate. (in my opinion) I've had roommates. We didn't have sex. AND we didn't do any of the aforementioned examples of what my husband and I have shared together. Roommates share rent. Spouses share lives. So does he agree with me? I think he must. We've discussed just about everything we can, looked into any and every solution we could think of. We're still together. Could he change his mind one day? Of course. Which could happen in ANY relationship, whether the two are having sex once a day or once a month or once a year. We didn't give up our rights as citizens when we decided to stay together. Either one of us may have different feelings down the line. No one can foretell the future. He has the absolute right to tell me he is no longer happy and wants a divorce. As do I. I hope we don't. But I wouldn't stay with anyone who didn't want to be with me, no matter how much life history we shared. "I just looked into it originally because my husband and I were in counseling and I was trying to gather as much information as I could to better understand his feelings by reading other peoples' stories." - So since that was your original purpose, has it been fulfilled? Are you still in counseling? Have you gathered all the information you need? If you have, what is your purpose here now? "If it is the primary purpose of marriage, why then would so many people have sex with people outside of a marital vow?" -Because they have been taught that they should wait for marriage for sex or that the most ethical place to have sex is in marriage. Also, most people will prefer having sex in a committed relationship. " If it were, people would probably have a tendency to marry a person who is a crazy, adventurous, any time willing, do anything, anywhere sexual partner, instead of picking a person whom they feel is honest, shares your religious beliefs, shares your beliefs in future plans, has similar morals and standards, has similar life goals, etc." But my point was not that sex was the ONLY purpose of marriage, but the PRIMARY purpose of marriage. Many people want all of the other things you mentioned as well. "Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. " I disagree with this. Frankly, if my spouse had been a sexual person, it probably would have made up for all of her other failings. "Which is perfectly acceptable to me, because he participated fully and with great enthusiasm and heart, in counseling for about 18 months. What more could I ask for?" So from this comment, I assume that the counseling has ended? Were all issues resolved then? "Does he agree sex is "THE most important part of a marriage"? I don't know. But it seems like he doesn't, again, because otherwise we would be divorced." Maybe there are other aspects of the relationship he values as much. Or he may believe that the pain he endures does not compare to the pain that might result to your children. Just a thought. "So does he agree with me? I think he must." He might. But unless you directly ask him, you won't know. Lastly, I have to ask you again. Why do you keep coming here? Are you still trying to gain information for counseling? So since that was your original purpose, has it been fulfilled? Are you still in counseling? Have you gathered all the information you need? If you have, what is your purpose here now? I guess I should leave? Because they have been taught that they should wait for marriage for sex or that the most ethical place to have sex is in marriage. Also, most people will prefer having sex in a committed relationship. I think you misunderstood me. My point is that sex happens outside the bond of marriage, arguably, more than within the bonds of marriage. Meaning, I don't think the primary purpose for people to marry is because they want to have sex. My opinion and my hope would be that two people choose each other primarily because they desire a life with this one person, out of everyone else. Do you actually know anyone who had zero premarital sex? Even my Mormon friends were having sex before marriage. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are many many people who actually do wait for marriage before having sex. I don't think I know of any, though. I agree that most people prefer having sex in a committed relationship. But sex as the primary reason to get married? Have you ever asked someone why they were marrying a specific person and been told, "I'm marrying Jane because I want to have sex." But do you love her? Do you want to share your life with her? Did you pick her because she's a good person? Does she want the same things as you do? Do you have the same goals and values? It seems strange that while a person is up at the alter, committing to vows before God or whomever, and their family and friends, that in the back of their mind they are thinking, "blah blah blah, I get to have sex." "Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. " "I disagree with this. Frankly, if my spouse had been a sexual person, it probably would have made up for all of her other failings. " If two people are having consistent, mutually enjoyable sex, it deletes the fact that they treat you horribly? (not you, specifically) Of course if two people are amazingly compatible sexually, it's gonna be easier to overlook the fact that the house may not be as spotless as it could be. Or that your spouse never returns the back rub. But does even the most amazing sex allow someone to overlook being treated unkindly on a consistent basis? Or continually put down or demeaned? What the hell kind of life is that? Treat my like shit, as long as the sex is good? "So from this comment, I assume that the counseling has ended? Were all issues resolved then?" Yes. 18 months of first weekly then biweekly couples and individual counseling. Were all the issues resolved? We only had one issue. And yes. "Maybe there are other aspects of the relationship he values as much. Or he may believe that the pain he endures does not compare to the pain that might result to your children. Just a thought." I absolutely agree with the first part of your statement. He does value all the other aspects as much. Which is why we're still together, I would think. Pain to children is a completely valid reason to choose to avoid divorce. I agree. Two points though. My children are over 21 years old; still painful to experience your parents' divorce, but probably less so than when they are younger. And my parents were divorced. While I wouldn't choose it, it's not a death sentence for children. Both my brother and I have evolved into adults who have completed college, graduate school, haven't been divorced, never been arrested, still love both our parents, (and their spouses) don't kick dogs. LOL While I can't read my husband's mind, causing pain to our children by way of divorce was never brought up during counseling. "So does he agree with me? I think he must." He might. But unless you directly ask him, you won't know. That's a figure of speech. I think he must, other wise he would have divorced me. I told him in a hundred different ways, if he couldn't be happy staying with me, he should absolutely leave. I told him I would never utter an unkind word about him, whatever his decision was. We went over and over and over every possible nook and cranny of the how's, why's, what if's, this is how I feel, this is how I feel. He doesn't have any reason to feel roped in. I assume he said everything he wanted to say about the way he felt in 18 months of counseling and 30 years of relationship. Should I keep asking him daily if he's sure he wants to be with me? That's pathetic. He's a grown man. He certainly is capable of voicing an opinion or thought or emotion that he wants me to be aware of. Why do I keep coming here? Honestly, I log on every once in a while when I'm not in trial. I guess it sucks me in. On the bright side, it keeps me from shopping online. Apparently it seems I'm not welcome.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 17, 2017 13:49:48 GMT -5
And finally, it's true that I don't enjoy the fact that my marriage is sexless. I wouldn't choose it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I do absolutely enjoy the 1,000 other wonderful aspects of my marriage. If I didn't, I absolutely wouldn't stay married. Even if the sex was FABULOUS. Well, it appears that you feel that the 1000 positive aspects of your marriage outweigh the one part that is missing. I congratulate you. But here, you are among people who feel that this one missing aspect of marriage is essential to marriage. They honestly feel that that sex is the most basic part of marriage, and without, the primary purpose of marriage is gone. You disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion. But you did ignore one part of my reply, which is this. What is your purpose here? The majority of people here are suffering from the abuse of sexual rejection. Many of us have come to the conclusion that without sex, we are no longer wiling to continue the marriage. We have tried for months or longer to convince our spouses that sex is important to us. I know that you don't believe that sexual rejection is abuse, and you are entitled to that opinion. So what do you get out of coming here? You are not going to convince us that sex is unimportant. You are not going to change us. So what is it that you want here? One other thing. Does your husband know about this site? Do you think that he would agree with you? I originally was made aware of this site by a coworker. I just looked into it originally because my husband and I were in counseling and I was trying to gather as much information as I could to better understand his feelings by reading other peoples' stories. You are correct in that I don't believe that sex is the primary purpose of a marriage. It's an aspect of marriage, I agree. If it is the primary purpose of marriage, why then would so many people have sex with people outside of a marital vow? They don't want to marry all those people they happen to have sex with. They just want to have sex, not get married. (I'm absolutely not opposed to premarital sex at all.) I believe when you choose a person you want to marry, you are choosing a person whom you want to build a life with. Someone you want to spend the rest of your days with, to raise children, to create a home, to spend your young years with, and someone to share your golden years with. Yes, it's a person that you choose to have sex with for the rest of your married life. Of course. So in my opinion, sex isn't THE primary purpose for marriage. If it were, people would probably have a tendency to marry a person who is a crazy, adventurous, any time willing, do anything, anywhere sexual partner, instead of picking a person whom they feel is honest, shares your religious beliefs, shares your beliefs in future plans, has similar morals and standards, has similar life goals, etc. Again, it's never been my intention to convince anyone that sex isn't an important aspect in a marriage or relationship. I don't care if anyone changes their opinion; like you, I'm just giving an opposite point of view. I don't believe I've ever stated that sexual rejection was not abuse. I absolutely believe if someone you love, and who is supposed to love you, treats you unkind, disrespectful, in an attempt to control, or just to be mean, IS abuse. Whether it's withholding sex or physical abuse, verbal abuse -- whatever -- any form of control. I don't believe I ever tried to convince anyone that sex is unimportant. On the contrary, I believe I've always stated IF it IS important to a person, and that person isn't satisfied with their spouse, sexually -- or HOWEVER, then they need to find a way to change their situation. And the only other opinion that I stated, and that I stand by, is that it IS possible for a person to have a low/lower libido than another person without it meaning that the person isn't sexually attracted to the other, doesn't love the other, or is trying to control the other. Of course, if a marriage or relationship has other problems -- substantial, irreparable issues, of course opposite sexual compatibility is going to seem huge. I've read a lot of stories that begin with how a spouse is withholding sex and how it makes the poster angry, insecure. But then the poster goes on to say that the spouse also does this or that horrible thing. Basically, that the spouse is kind of a crappy person AND they withhold sex. My opinion is that the withholding quite possibly is the least of the problems in the relationship if there is list of other not-so-nice things the spouse/partner does. As far as I know, my husband doesn't know about this site. Or, actually, he may be aware of it, because I believe I mentioned it during counseling. However, having been with my husband for 30 years, I would confidently state that he wouldn't avail himself to investigate it, or any other such site. He doesn't particularly have the time or frankly the interest to read about other peoples' issues. Which is perfectly acceptable to me, because he participated fully and with great enthusiasm and heart, in counseling for about 18 months. What more could I ask for? I'm a little unclear as to your last question. Would he agree with me? I'll answer what I think you were wondering. I think he agrees with me about marriage, about what a marriage is for -- what it means to him and myself. Otherwise we would be divorced. Does he agree sex is "THE most important part of a marriage"? I don't know. But it seems like he doesn't, again, because otherwise we would be divorced. Does he think sex IS important? Of course he does. Which is why we've had sex with each other for almost 30 years. But we've also done so many other things during our relationship with each other; we've dated, we married, we've bought homes, we've changed careers, we started a family, we raised two children, we've traveled, we've started businesses, we've filed bankruptcy, we started new businesses, we enjoy each other in our leisure time, he does things with his life-long friends, I do things with my life-long friends, we do things with each others' friends, we supported each other through difficult times, deaths in each others' families, supported each other in important decisions. We have lots of plans for our future. five-year plans, 10-year plans. Plans for retirement. Plans for helping our children start their adult lives. There's no other person that I want to do these things with. We're not just roommates or friends because we don't have sex. We're life partners. Roommates and friends don't often do the things I just mentioned, regardless of how strong their friendship is. If you don't even LIKE your spouse AND you're not having sex, but still living in the same house, it may seem similar to a roommate relationship or friend relationship. When you've been in a loving relationship for 30 years, the mere fact that there comes a time where there are no sexual relations doesn't therefore designate you as a roommate. (in my opinion) I've had roommates. We didn't have sex. AND we didn't do any of the aforementioned examples of what my husband and I have shared together. Roommates share rent. Spouses share lives. So does he agree with me? I think he must. We've discussed just about everything we can, looked into any and every solution we could think of. We're still together. Could he change his mind one day? Of course. Which could happen in ANY relationship, whether the two are having sex once a day or once a month or once a year. We didn't give up our rights as citizens when we decided to stay together. Either one of us may have different feelings down the line. No one can foretell the future. He has the absolute right to tell me he is no longer happy and wants a divorce. As do I. I hope we don't. But I wouldn't stay with anyone who didn't want to be with me, no matter how much life history we shared.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 17, 2017 10:10:38 GMT -5
sunniedays it's so exhausting reading your posts so I won't be participating in this thread any more. I have better things to do with my time than listen to your insulting, passive aggressive, fantasy world rants. Your words here insult so many people every time you post. I don't believe you should post here any more. I know you don't give a shit what I think, or anyone else here for that matter so I'm sure I'll get one of your venemous replies to this. But I also know you can't resist an argument. Send my commiserations to your husband. Who's the insulting one?
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 16, 2017 18:28:48 GMT -5
I work in a courtroom. There have been many times in my career where I have wanted to call a bench officer something disrespectful. Many times where it was my belief that they were being unfair, unreasonable - heck, even times I can recall where they're making rulings that have been borderline illegal. Do I get to say what I'm feeling? Do I get to tell them what I'm thinking? No. I have to BEHAVE respectfully. I HAVE to. Even when they treat me disrespectfully, which happens occasionally. If I can treat someone I don't love, don't like, and sometimes don't even respect with respect, I don't think it's too much to ask that my life partner, the man who loves me, AND my children to be able to treat me and each other respectfully. People don't deserve to be treated poorly by their chosen partners. I think that's my main point; isn't it? What a coincidence! I work in a courtroom as well. And although I am very respectful in a courtroom, I have no problem going back to the judge's chambers and telling him in no uncertain terms that his ruling was wrong. It would be disrespectful to let him think that he is doing the right thing when I know he is wrong. And I have even told judges in open court that although I have great respect for their positions, they are not ruing according to the law. Yes, people deserve to be treated well by their chosen partners. But when those partners have intentionally done things to hurt those they profess to love, the respect tends to disappear. Please realize that although you and I have had some disagreements, I certainly believe that you are not enjoying your sexless marriage as you stated in your thread last fall. And I assure you that I did not intend to be rude by making suggestions, I was just trying to help your situation. Of course it's permissible to state your position (whether it happens to be in court or with your spouse) when you think the person is incorrect or you're simply just trying to make a point. I've also informed certain courts that I objected to their ruling or that it appeared to be in conflict with the law. My point is, you don't argue with them in a disrespectful manner. You don't call them names, simply because you're "angry." Of course, inside you may be absolutely calling them every name in the book. But it's not okay to speak it. It's just not. IN MY OWN OPINION, this applies even more when dealing with a partner, spouse, child, sibling -- I mean, especially with someone you love. I absolutely agree that when a partner intentionally does things to hurt their loved one, respect disappears. Of course. That's obvious. What reasonable, humane, loving person would be able to respect someone who treats them in an intentionally hurtful manner? So don't respond with disrespect piled on top of disrespect piled on top of disrespect piled on top of disrespect. Is that the solution? Assuming you (not you, personally) don't live in a country with arranged marriages, YOU chose this person. Is there the slightest chance you happened to choose some bizarre Jekyll/Hyde person who changed into an uncaring, disrespectful, rude, horrible person all of a sudden? I guess there's a minute chance that could have happened. But for all the others, my opinion (just my opinion, here) I feel like they should take responsibility for maybe not choosing wisely. Of course, there's no excuse for someone to mistreat another person, regardless of making a poor choice. It just seems so counter-productive to name-call, disrespect, complain, live a miserable life of feeling disgust and hatred for someone, instead of pulling yourself out of the situation. Yes, it's difficult. Yes, there are myriad challenges. Yes, it's unfair. Yes, it's just not right to have to sacrifice so much just because someone else can't treat you the way anyone deserves to be treated. But what's the alternative? Drudging through your days, feeling miserable, feeling hatred towards someone, being bitter --- I understand it can be a sucky situation. Maybe you can't prevent someone from disrespecting you. But you don't have to help them by also disrespecting yourself. And finally, it's true that I don't enjoy the fact that my marriage is sexless. I wouldn't choose it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I do absolutely enjoy the 1,000 other wonderful aspects of my marriage. If I didn't, I absolutely wouldn't stay married. Even if the sex was FABULOUS.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 16, 2017 17:48:22 GMT -5
Not once has he EVER said anything even slightly disrespectful to me. But if he did, I can guarantee I would be at my attorney's office immediately. I am glad that in over 30 years, your husband has NEVER said anything even slightly disrespectful to you. I have to say, you are the only person I have ever heard say this. Frankly, it amazes me, but I take you at your word. But on the other hand, maybe he knows that you are not open to disagreement. You seem to be quite put off by people who don't agree with you here. Maybe this is why he is a bit hesitant to express his true feelings towards you. Divorce is very hard, and if he knows that any statement you deem even "slightly disrespectful" (your words, not mine), you will immediately go see a lawyer (I assume to file for divorce), that would not be a relationship that is conducive to total honesty. Just a thought about possibilities. You think it's hard to believe that someone is able to argue, disagree with another person without being disrespectful? My husband is not afraid to disagree with me. We disagree-I wouldn't say often, but sure we disagree. We argue. Sometimes we may go a day with very little or no speaking. I rather prefer that if you're not able to speak respectfully, don't speak at all. Give it a day for calmer heads to prevail. That way, there are no words spoken that can never be taken back, even with an apology. My definition of "slightly disrespectful" is not that a person is not allowed to disagree with me. Or that a person is not allowed to argue with me. Or that a person is not allowed to state their opinion or position. I'm just saying don't be disrespectful. It just seems to me that a person should be able to have a discussion, disagreement, debate, hell, an all-out, voice-raising argument without resorting to name-calling, especially with the person they claim to love. Would you tell your daughter to go on dating that fellow, because after all, he's only "slightly disrespectful" to her? Is it okay to be disrespectful only in the heat of an argument? How many times per year is being disrespectful acceptable? Once? Twice? Five times? Or is the rule that unlimited disrespect is "okay" as long as the disrespect occurs "in the heat of an argument"? Maybe disrespect is okay, as long as the person you're disrespecting is being unreasonable? How about just don't be disrespectful? It's not impossible to stand up for what you believe in, state your position, state something that perhaps you are unhappy with, without calling someone a name. Good God, that's what children do. I don't need to threaten my husband with divorce if he acts disrespectfully. He's no shrinking violet, I assure you. He's perfectly capable of holding his own, and does so, every day, all day. But so do I. He's not tip-towing around me, frightened that I may run off to a lawyer if he dares to disagree with me. He's not "hesitant" to express his feelings to me even slightly. (he's Italian, and not a person who would ever be described as having a laid-back type personality) I've never once in my life held divorce over his head for any reason; nor has he done the same to me. Quite the opposite, in fact. I told him if he felt his only chance for happiness was divorce, that of course it wouldn't make me joyous, but I would fully understand it. And that I wouldn't cry and beg and disparage him for doing so. As I've said in other posts, obviously I don't have my husband wired for sound 24-7. Is is possible that for 30 years he's been polite to my face, but calling me names behind my back? Sure, Anything is possible. Probably not likely that I wouldn't have heard about it by now though. Or that he wouldn't have let his closet disrespect for me slip on even one occasion in 30 years. I find it a bit odd that so many people apparently feel it's acceptable to be disrespectful to their spouses. "I love you, therefore it's okay for me to disrespect you if I'm angry." I don't ever want to be in a relationship that stands for that principal. I didn't allow my children to disrespect each other, or me. I won't allow my spouse, a fully mature grown man, to be disrespectful to me. And I wouldn't disrespect him either. Because I love him. I don't want to cause him pain. Pain that can't always be erased by an apology. I RESPECT him too much.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 16, 2017 16:54:38 GMT -5
You know, sunniedays . I'm actually onside with you at least most of the way in your distaste with the word "refuser", or "dead fish". It's not about disrespect though, for me - not directly. I think it's impractical - it externalizes a choice to participate in a bad deal. It absolves the personal responsibility to apply and hold to boundaries and accept the consequences. It perpetuates the fiction of a total lack of agency - whereas taking one's agency and redefining the relationship in a more authentic way is often the only thing that resolves the difference when it goes this far. I find it incredible that in 30 years he has not said anything even slightly disrespectful to you. People do that as a product of being human and imperfect, grumpy even. I have striven very hard to remain respectful of my ex-wife - many incentives to do so, including my own personal moral code, but I also know I have failed in this at times out of anger, frustration, sheer insensitivity. I would think that the only way I could avoid at least some disrespect (which I hope I would own and apologize for), would be if I was myself so disinterested in the relationship that I acquiesced to all needs or boundaries. Is it that he knows that if he exhibited "the slightest disrespect", that you would "immediately" lawyer up? That is an astoundingly martial stance in an invested relationship. I think I share with you the view that empathy - being able to understand the point of view of one's partner, even while not agreeing or investing in it - is incredibly useful. For me, it allowed me to finally let go of the relationship I was holding onto in the hope that she or I would change. It allowed me to finally realize that the price I did not want to pay was unavoidable. But I also take the view that anger, frustration, resentment, and the expression of these honest and reasonable reactions to an unreasonable situation, can be channeled towards useful ends. Anger is normal part of the process of dealing with any significant loss. The end of physical intimacy with a partner you love is a massive loss. Consider that most of us pack sexual intimacy as a defining aspect of marriage. So the talk about the loss of intimacy is really a proxy for a discussion about losing the marriage, in any practical sense - of admitting to oneself and then to each other that the marriage is lost and has been replaced with a different kind of relationship. The anger is compounded with the realization of what has happened on the tail end of it - often after years and years of internalizing the distaste, contempt, and outright disgust. It's not uncommon for people in this situation to think terrible things about themselves. I used to think I was so disgusting that my own wife wouldn't want me - so why would anyone else? I felt lonely to the point of tears when involved in "self-care". I thought my junk and the modest demands of my libido were as disgusting as the lengths I would go to research and discover whatever it was that turned her on. Many of us find that our best efforts to enlist our spouses in physical intimacy get recharacterized as perversion, or even as being like a rape. Some people want to kill themselves actively. Some, like me, get to a point of death fantasies - where you find yourself wishing that lightning would strike you down, or you have to take a bullet to save a child. Sometimes, after all that, you find that your spouse has an affair, or seems to express easy interest with a stranger. And then, sometimes something happens somewhere that makes you think - what if it isn't me? The anger hits. How could it not? We just have a differing of opinions on what constitutes respect. Of course I have called my brother names when we were growing up. They were disrespectful. My excuse is that we were children/adolescents. I wouldn't do it now. I have never called either one of my parents a disrespectful name. Probably because I grew up in a home where my parents didn't call myself and my brother names, nor did I ever hear my parents call each other names, despite the fact that my parents divorced when I was 9. My dad had two affairs, yet my mom NEVER called him anything disrespectful. Not once. Of course she explained that my dad's behavior was not right. She probably even uttered a statement along the lines of, "Your dad is acting in" -- whatever way she described it. I loved them both. I know my dad behaved poorly and that what he did was wrong and hurt many people. He's still one of the best people I know. To this day, my mom has not referred to my dad by using a disrespectful name. What he did was disrespectful. And wrong. But she never resulted to name-calling. (at least in front of me) So maybe that's why I do draw the line at being called anything slightly disrespectful. Especially ESPECIALLY by my husband; a grown man, who claims to love me, whom I chose to be my partner. So, yes, I can honestly say that in 30 years, he has not referred to me in disrespectful manner (to my face. of course, I don't have him wired for sound) I remember one time when my 11-year-old daughter was behaving like 11-year-old girls will, and my husband said (not to her face, but loud enough for her to hear) "She's acting like a little bitch." No. It's not acceptible. I won't stand for that. Yes, she may have been acting like a little bitch. She was 11. But in my life, dad does not get to say that about his daughter. For God's sake, what does that teach her? That people who claim to love her are allowed to disrespect her? So maybe she can find herself a mate that will treat her similarly? Teach her that as long as the next day they say, "I apologize for calling you a bitch. I was angry and frustrated," that it's acceptable? I just won't tolerate it. In my opinion, things can be said that can never be taken back. Apologize until you're blue in the face. You still called me -- whatever. Then is there even a line that it's not acceptable? Perhaps disrespectful name-calling is "okay" if only done when one partner is angry, and only as long as the partner apologizes the next day. But only as long as there are no more than five such incidents per year. Where does it stop? Does being disrespectful, despite the fact that an apology is proffered, seem to boost loving feelings towards the person being disrespectful? Especially if it's a consistent pattern. I work in a courtroom. There have been many times in my career where I have wanted to call a bench officer something disrespectful. Many times where it was my belief that they were being unfair, unreasonable - heck, even times I can recall where they're making rulings that have been borderline illegal. Do I get to say what I'm feeling? Do I get to tell them what I'm thinking? No. I have to BEHAVE respectfully. I HAVE to. Even when they treat me disrespectfully, which happens occasionally. If I can treat someone I don't love, don't like, and sometimes don't even respect with respect, I don't think it's too much to ask that my life partner, the man who loves me, AND my children to be able to treat me and each other respectfully. You asked if my husband doesn't speak to me with the slightest disrespect because he thinks I'll "lawyer up." Maybe. Or maybe he knows me very well and knows I refuse to allow myself to be treated disrespectfully. What difference does it make whether I "threaten" to lawyer up? Is it not enough to tell him that I won't allow myself to be treated disrespectfully? Maybe he doesn't do it, not because he believes I'll lawyer up, but because he's just respectful? Look, I'm not attempting to represent that I have some fairy-tail, non-existent type of marriage where the spouses never argue. Of course we have arguments. I can absolutely assert that we have both said something along the lines of, "you're acting like" -- whatever, fill in the blank. Or, "you're being" -- whatever. Of course. But hand to a Bible, I can state that I, nor he, has ever called the other a name. You can disbelieve me. You don't know me. If you find the way I choose to treat others and how I expect to be treated by others an "astoundingly marital stance in an invested relationship" that's fine. I choose to be respected, especially by the people who I love, and who love me. I empathize with your description of the depths of sadness, self-loathing, and the "what's wrong with ME?" mentality that can develop in a marriage that's broken. For any reason. I'm sure these thoughts aren't exclusive to persons who happen to find themselves in a sexless relationship. I wouldn't wish unhappiness on anyone. People don't deserve to be treated poorly by their chosen partners. I think that's my main point; isn't it?
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 16, 2017 14:24:29 GMT -5
Yes, I am in a sexless marriage. Not a psych grad student or something. I started reading a while back when my husband and I started counseling to gather more information from others' perspective. Is that allowed? After reading your previous posts, I really feel sad for you. Many of your posts talk about how you have no desire for sex, and sometimes you seem to say that you would like to have the desire, but other times, you say that it is "normal" for you. I can see how reading the refused thoughts would be painful for you to hear. My guess is that down deep inside, you wonder if your husband feels the same way. I have no idea if he does or doesn't. However, I suspect that he does. I am very sorry for your bout with cancer, and I hope you remain cancer-free. Going through menopause prematurely is certainly a problem for anyone. I assume this does mean that you have no estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone at all. With none of these hormones, of course you would have no sex drive. However, there are some other effects that I think you are experiencing. For instance, when I responded to your post, I enumerated multiple ways that my wife has abused me. You completely ignored all of them and began accusing me of having no empathy. However, the fact that you ignored everything that I said screams a lack of empathy. Hormone deficiency is a common cause of this. Additionally, you have stated that you do not find many sexual experiences to be intimate at all. For instance, "But giving your partner a hand job or oral sex isn't intimate or bonding. It's raw, down and dirty sex. It's basically having an "urge" relieved." There are many women and men who find both of these experiences extremely intimate or bonding. I certainly do! And I find your characterization of any kind of sex as "down and dirty" a bit offensive. There are many people who cannot have vaginal sex, but still lovingly offer this kind of intimacy. Remember, you are on a site which is primarily populated by people who have begged, pleaded, and done everything possible to get their spouses to make love to them. Some of us have been labeled with much more hateful labels than "dead fish." We have been called perverts, sluts, rapists, and every demeaning name you can thing of. When you say something like "it's just sex," that is just as painful to us as when someone says to you, "Just do it!" Many of us have been refused for years, while being told that we are freaks because we would like to have sex in marriage. So we have finally found a place where we can discuss our situation without being judged, we have to hear from you that we are being too "harsh" towards our refusers. I would like to give you a suggestion. Instead of admonishing a person here who is expressing frustration about being refused the most basic part of marriage, why don't you try to respond with empathy. Acknowledge the feeling behind what is expressed, instead of criticizing him/her. Try to realize that just because you can live without ever having sex again, that may not be true of everyone. Lastly, if you really want to save your marriage, why don't you check out this site www.biotemedical.com/There are many men and women who have greatly benefitted from this treatment. Maybe there is a provider in your area, and you can speak to a doctor about it. You may be able to make your marriage better. Thank you for the nice? response. Yes, having a low libido is normal for me. It has been the norm for me (compared to my partners) for about 35 years. Perhaps it's your belief that anyone with a lower libido than yourself is not normal. That's fine. But it has been my norm for as long as I can remember. Has it prevented me from living an amazing fulfilling life? Never. With the exception of being hit with a deadly disease at 39, my life is 1,000 times better than I could have imagined. My low/lack of desire had never been an issue with me prior to having cancer. Not once. I don't think I even ever gave it a first, second, or third thought. No one complained, including me. Of course I would like to have the desire now. Of course. Who wouldn't? So in response to your first paragraph: Yes, my low/lower libido was "normal" to me. My husband married me, being fully aware, after 10 years of dating, of my libido. Now that it's completely gone, OF COURSE I wish I could feel the desire again. Those two facts aren't mutually exclusive. Lack of empathy due to hormone imbalance because I didn't respond to your statement about how your wife abused you for years? What I wanted to say was WHY would you stay with someone who treated you so badly. But I didn't want to be insensitive or rude. You imply that it's "OKAY" for a person to speak ill of their partner because they have treated you so horribly. Perhaps. But all I can think is why would you continue to endure something which is so distasteful, so horrible, so unspeakable for a spouse to do to another? Emotional, verbal, physical, abuse -- there is no excuse. You picked a person. Maybe unwisely. Then you had children (perhaps). And now you just want to call them names on the internet, instead of getting out. And apparently you finally did, which is commendable. As to raw, down and dirty sex/hand jobs not being intimate -- That's my opinion. I happen to believe there are much more intimate/bonding acts in a marriage than giving someone oral sex. Of course it's lovely. Of course it feels good. To me -- in my life experience, giving my husband a hand job isn't what I think about when I'm daydreaming about what brings us closer together, bonding us to each other as life partners. It just doesn't. That's just my opinion. I think of other things when I think about why we love each other and have stayed together for 30 years. Things that, if you subtract handjobs, oral sex-- out of the equation, you're still left with the sum of 100 other things that cause two people to love each other. If handjobs, oral sex, WHATEVER kind of sex was so soul-bonding, why would anyone pay a prostitute to engage in such activities? Why would a person want to "bond" with a prostitute? People don't pay prostitutes to care for them when they're ill. They don't pay them to comfort them in times of sorrow. They don't pay them to share touching moments with them as they watch their children graduate from college. They pay them for sex. It's sex. Can having sex bond you to your partner? Of course it can. Of course. But it can also be down and dirty, fulfilling an urge, purely tension-relieving sex. That's my point. It CAN be a bonding experience. I fully agree with you. It's just my opinion. Does having an opposing opinion from yours somehow imply a person has a hormone imbalance? I absolutely realize that some folks here have been called perverts, sluts, rapists. Of course that's horrible and absolutely not acceptable. I can't imagine anyone continuing to want to have sex, or even speak to a person who refers to them in such a manner. Whether they believed it to be true, or whether they were saying such things out of anger or attempt to control, whatever -- there's absolutely no excuse. But is the solution to be "harsh" to them in response on a website? I understand this is a site to "vent." It's my OPINION -- just an opinion, that perhaps sites like these unintentionally allow affected persons to perpetuate a harmful at worse, and unkind at best, situation. One where people continue to vent about the abuse they are suffering, while all the while not focusing on a solution or steps to follow in order to find a solution. Again, it's just my opinion. Also, I find it at the same time interesting and discouraging that when a converse opinion is stated it is met with rude replies and accusations of being a "troll." Look, I don't think ANYONE should have to live without sex and be content with that. Please don't misquote me. Yes, in my opinion, sex is not "the most basic part of marriage." Of course it IS an important part of marriage. The "MOST" important? It's my opinion -- just my opinion, that it's not the most important. But if you (not you, personally) do believe it IS the most important part of your marriage, and you're not satisfied with what you are experiencing, then for God's sake, change your situation. I never attempted to change my husband into something I thought he should be. Nor has he tried to change me. If the person you choose as a partner isn't sexually compatible with you -- let alone, treats you abusively, WHY would you WANT to experience such a bonding/intimate act with them? I apologize to anyone who felt I was "admonishing" them for "expressing frustration" here. Frustration is a normal, acceptable reaction to a frustrating situation. What I THOUGHT I was doing was expressing an opinion that when someone behaves poorly/unkind (withholding spouse) and then the "victim" responds by name-calling and disrespect, it just brings that person down to the other person's unkind level. Is it loving to treat your spouse unkindly by controlling, abusing, refusing to work at a good marriage? Of course not. Is it loving to respond to an unkind act with unkindness? In my opinion, no. Also, thank you for the passive/aggressive advice to "explore" hormone replacement therapy. As if a 13-year survivor of breast cancer with an absent libido could possibly be unaware of such treatments. I'm well-educated and I'm quite an advocate for my own health and well-being. I'm quite sure that I've researched most, if not all treatments which are beneficial in order to stabilize a person's hormones. Perhaps there are some ancient Chinese remedies that I've missed, but suffice it to say, all other hormone therapy has been thoroughly explored by myself, my primary physician and my oncologists. None are without risk. None guarantee positive results commensurate to the known risks. If it's your opinion that a person with a stage III-C breast cancer history should undergo some type of hormone/testosterone treatment, which have numerous known risks, some that are not FDA approved, which have no statistical guarantee to improve their libido, that's fine. I've decided not to risk my life on the very small chance that HRT might increase my libido. It may be your opinion that being able to "want" to have sex and having sex is important enough to risk your health. It's my opinion that I want to see my children succeed, marry, perhaps have children; enjoy my retirement with my husband, without willfully possibly putting my health/life in jeopardy. My husband is fully supportive of my choice, as I would be, if the 'shoe' was on the other foot. Again, it's my choice, after deliberate research. Maybe it wouldn't be yours, which is absolutely your prerogative. Finally, thank you for counseling me on ways to "save" my marriage. Rest easy, friend, that my marriage is in no need of saving. Is it possible that there may be a problem in the future? Of course. I'm not obtuse. Isn't that true of ANY marriage? Presently, my marriage is just fine. Would it be 100% perfect if I had some inkling of sexual desire? Sure. But you know what doesn't happen in MY marriage? Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse. Ever. With the exception of about a year and a half of intensive, difficult counselling and emotional conversations, my relationship with my husband has been everything I've ever wanted it to be. We've been happy and blessed in more ways than I could have imagined. Of course, if given the option, I would have opted out on experiencing having a deadly disease with two children under the age of 10. But I can't think of one single thing I would have traded in my life in exchange for the chance to somehow escape my experience with cancer. My husband and I have discussed all options, including divorce, extensively. Of course I wouldn't be happy if my husband decided it was in his best interests to leave me. I don't want him to leave me. I love him. But he certainly has that option, as does anyone. And I certainly don't want to stay married to someone who doesn't willingly want to stay with me. So, yes, of course, anything is possible. No one knows the future. But I assure you, my 30-year relationship with my husband is more than fine. You can disbelieve. You don't know me or my husband. I can't prove it to you. That matters not. If you want to continue to feel sad for me, you're certainly entitled to do so.
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 16, 2017 10:52:25 GMT -5
I agree. I do leave my sense of humor behind when a grown adult male refers to the woman he chose as his wife as "fucking a dead fish." Not to just one or two close confidants, but to millions of random people. I guess I was raised to treat others in a respectful manner, regardless of the disrespectful way they may be behaving. In my opinion, it only emphasizes a person's short-comings and maturity level. As to not liking "refuser" in particular, feel free to continue to refer to the partners you chose in derogatory manners; your partners will continue to refer to you in derogatory manners; stay together for decades in your miserable relationships as you continue to call each other names, without standing up for yourselves, all the while continuing to complain about how horrible they are on a website. I do wonder sunniedays if the reason you come here and bollock us all for speaking our truths is that you desperately want your husband NOT to be saying these things about you. You have thoroughly convinced yourself that he holds you in high regard and would never say such things about you and your low libido. I'd love to hear his side. Continue to speak (whine, complain, cry, disrespect) your truths here, while doing nothing constructive to right your own situation. That's what 50% of the posts on this site appear to be. By the way, my husband does respect me. I know he does. We counseled for two years, working around our situation, looking for mutually agreeable solutions. We openly discussed divorce. I told him that divorce wasn't my solution, but that if he felt that divorce was the only way he could be happy, then I would fully support it; while NEVER uttering a negative or disparaging remark about him to anyone. Of course we've had disagreements and fights in 30 years. Not once has he EVER said anything even slightly disrespectful to me. But if he did, I can guarantee I would be at my attorney's office immediately. Because I won't be treated like that by anyone. And I won't have my children taught that that's the way a person treats someone they "love." Of course I don't have him wired for sound when he's away from me, so I suppose it's possible he has said something rude to a friend/family member. I guess I'll never know that. But it seems to me that IF he was prone to being disrespectful to me outside of my presence that SOME time in 30 years I would have seen evidence of it. "You have thoroughly convinced yourself that he holds you in high regard and would never say such things about you and your low libido." Really? Is that REALLY how you think a marriage should be? If your partner is different than you in any way, you no longer have to hold them in high regard?? That's a super awesome moral to live by. "Honey, you have a lower libido than I do. I no longer hold you in high regard. Every other good quality you have means nothing. It is permissible for me to now hold you in low regard and to speak ill about you." Fantastic. I'm sure our differences have caused him pain, frustration, confusion. Because I've felt the same. But pain, frustration, confusion doesn't give anyone the right to be disrespectful. It just defeats the whole purpose of living your life with a person that you choose to live your life with. If the person you chose does something-anything that makes you so unhappy, that your quality of life with them is so skewed, how is it even slightly helpful to STAY with them, while name-calling and disrespecting them to their face OR on a website??
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Post by sunniedays on Feb 15, 2017 19:07:29 GMT -5
Thank you for replying respectfully. I appreciate it, and I do appreciate your struggle in your marriage. I agree with most of what you post. Yes, people are unhappy. Yes, they vent. Yes, there is no cookie-cutter solution. Yes, I agree, some people might continue to try to have sex with a spouse in an attempt to salvage or "save" a marriage. But to "keep fucking a dead fish" -- really? You'd willingly stay in a relationship -- try to SAVE a relationship in which you describe sex as "fucking a dead fish"? Can that marriage REALLY be saved? If someone thinks having sex with their spouse is like fucking a dead fish, truly, honestly refers to their spouse -- I mean, look, I understand it's a description of "uneventful unenthusiastic sex". I get it. But come on. It's so disrespectful. And to say it out loud? Even to strangers on the internet? If it is just a harmless benign description, why not just go tell your wife that's how you refer to her as? Tell it to her face. See if that helps your relationship in any beneficial fashion. You know, there's a bounty of sad situations in life. Does being in a sad situation give a person carte blanche to treat another person unkindly? I do have empathy for those in an unhappy relationship. And I can accept that it is difficult to leave for whatever reason. But to find yourself a website where you can rant and disparage your partner is hardly a solution. Yes, to find others in a similar situation, where one can bounce ideas or problems off others in like relationships, I'm sure, is helpful for each individual's state of mind. But I would suggest that to rant endlessly about your own choices, and to include disrespectful terminology when referring to your own choices hardly seems productive. Seems like it would be quite difficult for a person to refer to their partners in disrespectful and unkind terms in print to "anonymous friends," and then be able to turn around and treat their partner respectfully in person. I don't know. Maybe they can. I do believe I am able to understand how difficult it must be to love someone and to feel that the person doesn't reciprocate your feelings in a way one might want. I have thought about how painful it would be to be in that person's shoes; however, it doesn't seem the right solution to throw around unkind terms and resort to name calling, especially of a person you claim to love. It just can't be helpful. As far as reasons for staying -- while I understand people say they have their reasons, I do find it rather unbelievable for someone to say they are staying because they still love their spouse, yet turn around and refer to them as "fucking a dead fish." WHO says that? Jesus. If your relationship is shitty and undesirable, leave. It's immature and unattractive for someone to describe a person whom they presumably loved at one point, who they created children with, so disrespectfully. You might think it. It might be absolutely true. Keep it to yourself, in my opinion. If a spouse treats you so terribly, so unkind, is such a horrible specimen of a human being, WHY --- WHY would you want to stay and try to make them love you? WHY would ANYONE strive to have a terrible, unkind, horrible, dead-fish fucking person love them? Perhaps the person believes they can CHANGE their unkind spouse. It's possible, with the right people, in the right situation. Probably have to recant that "dead-fish fucking" comment. If there's a wife who can forgive and forget being referred to as that, she's a bigger man than I. sunniedays wrote "so terribly, so unkind, is such a horrible specimen of a human being, WHY --- WHY would you want to stay and try to make them love you?" I do know the answer to that "why"- it's because we love them, more then we love ourselves and that's where the problem lies. There is no man I will love more than myself ever again. My children - with all my heart as big as the world. Btw, I could remember writing on EP that if my H were on fire I wouldn't piss on him. That was the anger talking and it might have been disrespectful but I needed the vent. I'm divorced a year now and I don't feel that way anymore I would definitely piss on him now lol, I've healed more or less from the anger. Anyway my point is the words are a product of emotion and this forum is an outlet and we as support need to respect each other's vents. Hopefully you won't have to do any pissing! I understand your point of view. I guess maybe I've never hated anyone so much where I felt the need to be disrespectful -- especially to someone who I loved. I can't imagine it. I would be devastated if I knew my partner/spouse had said something so mean. Not about pissing on him if he was on fire. I mean, that's almost just -- I don't know. Frustration. You're not really disrespecting him by calling him a name. But to explain why you want to stay with a horrible person is because you love them -- they're horrible; right? It's hard for me to understand that logic. I'm not saying you didn't feel it, I'm just saying it's hard for me. Thank you for trying to explain your experience.
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