An unintended side effect

catsloveme,...you might also look up the posts of baseballgirl. she also was successful in opening her marriage and making it work with her H  

I have an update. Things have been going fairly well - but last week she had a migraine and I had to do our first marriage / sex therapy session alone. She was still holding hands and caressing my arms, back and hugging, We hadjust been discussing how I thought she was still sexy and she is too body image negative, etc...

However, last night I made a joke.

She sent me downstairs to get her the last piece of chocolate pie, and I did so without any issue. The pie had gone stale and soggy, so she said to me - "I'm sorry, you went down for nothing."

My reply was, that's OK, I'll go down for you anytime. She abruptly stopped in her tracks and froze...

I asked what's wrong?

She flatly stated that that made her very uncomfortable. I said why would that make you uncomfortable, it's just a joke, we're married we can joke about things.

She stated that she doesn't want to respond because it would imply that something might happen. (BAM - there it is again) I said, well considering how you are responding now, that's sending a message also - which she got pissed about. I apologized for getting defensive, but also asked he if she was still going to discuss with her up-coming OBGYN appointment the total loss of desire and libido and the reported painful sex for "forever"/ she sullenly said yes. I then started stating that we as a married couple should be able to discuss these things without all of this drama, I am not going to judge her or disrespect her feelings. She ended the conversation with "I would be more comfortable discussing this with the therapist as a 3rd party to the conversation.

I believe this is her version of hand grenade to the OBGYN discussion and maintaining the crazy no touch, no desire expectation of celibate marriage. I really think her hormone issues within Perimenopause and now obvious heavy and difficult Menopause have unbalanced her to the degree she is incapable of seeing how crazy she is being.

I am now holding out little hope that any movement with her OBGYN is going to happen and she will simply lie and evade until I call the ball and file for divorce.

I packed her lunch for her this morning and made her morning coffee - I am trying my best to maintain and not react in a negative way to the crazy but at some point in the very near future - I am really looking ta divorce because she won't address her problems and get the obvious HRT and medical help she needs. The therapist and I have discussed this at length, and she indicates that this is not normal, and very un-workable form a relationship perspective, and I need to understand she is physically and mentally unwell - not something I can fix, she is going to have to want to fix it. I don't see that happening.

This sounds an awful lot like my wife's reaction to any kind if sexual joking or flirting as well. She's even said the same thing to me about not wanting to give me the impression that she's interested at all because she doesn't want to frustrate me.

This really seems like an impossible mountain to climb when you can't even talk or make jokes about sex with your spouse.

You are correct, this is wholly normal in a healthy marriage and an important part of emotional intimacy. Subtle references to knowledge of plans for later and just what floats their boat. Knowledge just for you and not for the world to know because you are their spouse. When trapped in my barren marriage I remember longing for him to make even the most subtle reference to such intimate knowledge between us. It’s a small thing when you have it in life, but a massive hole when you don’t. 

mirrororchid,...this sounds good in theory, but practical application , at least on this forum, is often as not nearly impossible to put in place. Almost all of us have "why chased" ourselves until we are blue in the face. And many of us, myself included, have attempted and offered all manor of solutions and to our spouses. More often than not those attempts at fixes or compromises are rejected by the refusing spouse. And often, if a compromise is reached and agreed to it does not result in a permanent fix, but is of short duration with the previous state of celebacy once again becoming the norm. Only a hand full of members here have achieved success. So it can be done it seems, but the odds are relatively high on it not happening.

Thanks for sharing this!   It brings to light ,in my own my mind how far I have progressed (healed) since my divorce ( escape from my controlling,sexless spouse).

last night during one of my many weekly ballroom dances i had women sitting on either side of me and we where watching another woman dance with her instructor ( man of 30 yrs. dance experience). We where all taking a break as the evening was winding down. 
All 3 of these women are more than 10 yrs older than me, one is going through a divorce, one is married, one is widowed. All in the DPO ( dance partner only) category.

There are times our conversations get away from dance and some flirting goes on! This was one of them. One of the ladies leans over and says to the other ( me in the middle) " I really like watching them dance together, I learn so much from watching. There's certain moves and positions that I've never seen before, I like to watch how she reacts, it makes me want to try it next. She  has so much fun,she really seems to enjoy it! ....look he's making faces,and making fun of her and she doesn't even realize it! LOL!"

I lean over to my left, to the woman who I know will appreciate my comments the best, and say... "If I didn't know better I'd think you where talking about a threesome! So you like watching and learning a lot about different positions!!  And want to try next LOL!!" 

She laughed! Turned all red and giddy and said " now that you mention it... that wouldn't be so bad! Some new moves would be good, can't wait to try it! LOL!"

My point is, It's so refreshing, so empowering, a great morale boost to be around other people who can openly, jokingly, or seriously talk, or laugh, about these things ( sex/intimacy) without getting all upset,and making me feel like I'm the worst person on the planet for even bringing it up!

It's a very large thing after going decades of not having it,and a feeling of normalcy to show desire for it again!

That's the problem I have in my relationship. My wife has expressed in therapy that she enjoys sex in the moment and always had good experiences with it. But she has no desire at all and she won't let me touch her in places I know would create the responsive desire.