|
|
Post by toughtiger on Sept 26, 2023 13:33:35 GMT -5
This speaks exactly to what i am feeling and want to do with my future..... I have also had some experience with the Don't Ask Don't Tell, as well as transparent polyamory with various levels of involvement - in the context of a sex-averse relationship. Your mileage may vary, but here's what I learned. 1. You may get sex in your life, but your home will still feel toxic, alone and isolated. Likely more than before. That's because the problem isn't just the sex - it's the upstream dysfunction that causes your partner to no longer see you as a sexual partner. It becomes much more difficult to pretend. 2. Your standards in a partner and in your level of treatment go up, rather than being diminished. 3. Particularly with Don't Ask/Tell - this is like writing a check when you don't know if you have enough money in the account. Transparency and involvement helps you know exactly what your partner is supporting (rather than tolerating), increment by increment, whereas Don't Ask/Tell puts the onus of discretion on you, and you can get very far out onto thin ice before your partner snaps. And then you have no idea of how your partner will react. In mine, my partner changed her mind and decided to follow up with a gazillion questions on what was at that point a very minor dalliance - a drink and a kiss - treating it as if I had a full blown affair (which she had done to me). There's no assurance at all that it won't be treated like an affair eventually - a distinction without a difference. Meanwhile, there is enormous effort on your part to maintain a deception. I appreciate your perspective and yes I know this may not be the best route.... I just really would like a refuser partner to be a bit more logical about the situation ..... .i only asked once for open he freaked out has brought it up several times..in fights...... just reach the point of acceptance that he cannot or does not want a sex life at all ... and I do .... i have asked him if he wants divorce ... told him i do .... he knows why....... but still not addressing the elephant in the room ...... Once again he is terrified what he will look like ( to others) if i leave and have a life.... he won't have one... he could careless what he looks like to me ...... |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2023 16:02:38 GMT -5
I just really would like a refuser partner to be a bit more logical about the situation ..... .i only asked once for open he freaked out has brought it up several times..in fights...... just reach the point of acceptance that he cannot or does not want a sex life at all ... and I do .... i have asked him if he wants divorce ... told him i do .... he knows why....... but still not addressing the elephant in the room ...... Once again he is terrified what he will look like ( to others) if i leave and have a life.... he won't have one... he could careless what he looks like to me ...... If you are looking for consistency of thought on your spouse's part that you can identify with, I can help you with that. I can also offer some observations on the way you've posed this vs what tends to work. First, let's back up and reframe the scale of what we are looking at in your relationship. Here is what you can likely agree on. 1. A marriage involves a unique romantic and sexual attraction between two people. It also involves many other aspects of partnership and a shared or compatible dream and an assumption of a future together as partners. Continuity. 2. You don't have that. you do not have a mutual unique attraction for each other. At some point, he no longer saw you as a viable sexual partner and withdrew. Now, that might be because he discovered something about you or about himself that prevented him from seeing you that way anymore. Or, it could be because he rejected the circumstance of being married to you as something he wanted, and so having sex with you would seem to legitimize or permission something he fundamentally wants to escape from. But either way, he doesn't see you as a sexual partner, even with a metaphorical gun to his head. For you, you recognize that a lack of this mutual sexual attraction spells the end of the marriage. It means there is no marriage. For him, he also recognizes this - but also can't change the way he feels (it's not indifference - if it was indifference he would have "why not?" sex, so it's actual antipathy toward you). So, you BOTH are in an unhappy celibate relationship. If he wants to preserve the relationships other benefits (the shared dream, shared expenses, activities, family, lifestyle, friends, the continuity and witness to life passing etc) then his goal will be to gaslight, defer, deflect, wait - do anything and everything he can to take your attention off the sexual dysfunction. He will pose it as you "choosing sex over marriage" as if these are opposite things. If he focuses on sex that he doesn't want with you, or if you change the marriage into some other arrangement than your mutual miserable celibacy, bring in other factors or players, it upsets an already fragile fiction - that you two have a happy household and everything is great except this one thing. And for you, you also realize that without sex that results from a unique mutual attraction, you don't really have a marriage. And you WANT that in your relationship to him. You want him to want you. So your goal is to constantly focus on the one thing he knows will end your marriage and his goal is to deflect that. So, in ASKING him if HE wants a divorce, or if he wants to open the relationship, his response will be consistent with his goal - deflection. You are asking him, as opposed to asserting the consequence of his lack of marital participation. Why would he ever say "yes" to that? |
|
|
|
Post by toughtiger on Sept 26, 2023 17:37:27 GMT -5
@ apocrypha
he says he does want sex with Me .... but literally he was spiraling down the low t/ ED problem before he had an a-fib event and the medications killed the even once in a blue moon event ... if you get my drift.
He has done Nothing to improve his situation including taking better care of his health etc....
I did for a long time want him to want me but know that it is dead and not coming back.... my resentment at this point is he does not even acknowledge that sex was ever part of our lives. we have 3 grown kids so proof is out there.
i have a hard time believing any partner does not have some thoughts now and again .... see a film with a sexy love scene ... etc
i would actually understand if he was taking care or himself in shower as the chemicals released by body during orgasm is helpful for heart health.
If situation was reversed and i could not physically able to do one thing.......... i would try to appease my spouse in another way or would be understanding if he outsourced....
Now maybe that would change if i was actually in that position..... i really think it is just part of a double standard thing...
|
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 27, 2023 8:35:35 GMT -5
@ apocrypha he says he does want sex with Me .... but literally he was spiraling down the low t/ ED problem before he had an a-fib event and the medications killed the even once in a blue moon event ... if you get my drift. He has done Nothing to improve his situation including taking better care of his health etc.... I did for a long time want him to want me but know that it is dead and not coming back.... my resentment at this point is he does not even acknowledge that sex was ever part of our lives. we have 3 grown kids so proof is out there. i have a hard time believing any partner does not have some thoughts now and again .... see a film with a sexy love scene ... etc i would actually understand if he was taking care or himself in shower as the chemicals released by body during orgasm is helpful for heart health. If situation was reversed and i could not physically able to do one thing.......... i would try to appease my spouse in another way or would be understanding if he outsourced.... Now maybe that would change if i was actually in that position..... i really think it is just part of a double standard thing... You have a right to be upset. If he wanted to have sex with you, it would be easy. You live together. If ED was an issue, there are other many other ways to have and enjoy sex but they involve thinking differently (and maybe some research and courage and tolerance)- and that's even without taking better care of health. When I look in my rearview mirror at the efforts made in my own marriage, I can now see that I was the one buying the stack of couples' counselling books, researching websites, different kinds of sexual relations and relationship formats. It was my agenda. When see dozens of other dysfunctional couples across this site, it is often the case that the sexually averse one doesn't make the doc appointment, doesn't follow up on the advice given, doesn't even take the pills to overcome ED. Usually, as with "The Talk" - nothing at all happens until a material, imminent consequence is attached. Without that consequence incoming, it's just a fight that you have and that's easier to do than the work. If you both at at the stage that you are at a stage of contempt (either mutual, or singular), then what's marriage bringing to the table for each of you? |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 27, 2023 9:25:04 GMT -5
I just really would like a refuser partner to be a bit more logical about the situation ..... .i only asked once for open he freaked out has brought it up several times..in fights...... [...]i have asked him if he wants divorce ... told him i do .... If you are asking what he wants (why would he want either of those?), there's no reason for him to say "Yes" to those. It's just part of The Talk. He likely thinks you are already having an affair. The proposal of an open marriage (in any form), or a divorce isn't something where you want loose ends. These aren't open ended questions unless you want surprises and misunderstandings at a nuclear scale. It's not uncommon when someone asks about an open marriage to have a negative response, only to discover later that the recipient of that proposal said "no" but used it as a ticket to start his or her own private affair. And it's also not uncommon to find that sex-averse partners somehow become sexually active with other people. If you propose an open marriage, while I don't think it solves as many marital problems as it introduces (sort of like having a baby, or taking on a demanding hobby or project together), I find better or less bad results happen when "open marriage" is very well researched and people get very specific about the various kinds of formats and levels of involvement and the conversation is well mapped beforehand. Also, if it's in the context of the "try anything" stage of saving a marriage, that it's posed as a choice, rather than a question. Either we get started on separation, or we try an open marriage and can discuss your level of involvement in selecting the third partner. Unless it's posed that way, it's a bit like asking someone if they want an amputation. Of course the answer is "no." But if it's posed as an amputation or die, maybe I'll pick it. Similarly, if you want a divorce, I don't think that's a question you pose (especially if you know you want one). Do you really want a divorce? |
|
|
|
Post by toughtiger on Sept 27, 2023 10:09:44 GMT -5
He likely thinks you are already having an affair. . Do you really want a divorce? he is too full of himself to think i would stray. My suggestion on open marriage was for example to hook up with someone else in a sexless marriage taking care of the intimacy for us ....while we can still play all is well in marriage like refusers often do. Yes i have someone in mind, who plans on staying married (financial concerns to split all assets is not something people want to think about at end of career or in retirement). we both have open minds on what our time together would mean. Do i really want a divorce ... yes ... i won't do it ........... most likely same financial concerns... but tired of playing we are "happy" when we are not. we are civil roommates that share a bank account....and several assets. i have done everything possible to save this for a long time... i ask so little ...not even sex anymore just being held or cuddled and when he has reluctantly done anything close ... his hugs feel like an awkward hug from a perfect stranger.......... I have had hugs from strangers that felt better. ...........I have asked him why ... that his hugs were awkward and creepy .... he has no answer. JUST tell the TRUTH ... if you want out say so.... if you are no longer attracted say so ( he claims that both are NOT the case) if hugging is hard for him because he thinks there is pressure for MORE just speak up ...QUIT the lies the common theme here is all the lies we all have been told .... "maybe tonight / maybe on vacation/ do this a/b/c thing for me and MAYBE/ maybe jump through hoops like a trained monkey all while they KNOW maybe in a lie ......"oh NOW i am ( insert label here) and never wanted or liked or anything about sex or intimacy and have strung you along for years and years...." WTH .... i you do not want a sex life........ tell someone before the "I do " playing games of i do not like this or that.. BS... is cruel and heartless. Communicate honestly not playing games. |
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Sept 27, 2023 11:59:04 GMT -5
toughtiger: "WTH .... i you do not want a sex life........ tell someone before the "I do " playing games of i do not like this or that.. BS... is cruel and heartless. Communicate honestly not playing games. "
If he had been honest, he knows you wouldn't have married him. He had no reason to tell the truth. He doesn't care how the marriage is hurting you.
|
|
|
|
Post by toughtiger on Sept 27, 2023 13:19:47 GMT -5
toughtiger: "WTH .... i you do not want a sex life........ tell someone before the "I do " playing games of i do not like this or that.. BS... is cruel and heartless. Communicate honestly not playing games. " If he had been honest, he knows you wouldn't have married him. He had no reason to tell the truth. He doesn't care how the marriage is hurting you. I was saying that for all the folks here that had people go into marriage not interested mine just lost his ability to function. |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 27, 2023 16:09:38 GMT -5
He likely thinks you are already having an affair. . Do you really want a divorce? Do i really want a divorce ... yes ... i won't do it ........... most likely same financial concerns... but tired of playing we are "happy" when we are not. we are civil roommates that share a bank account....and several assets. Fair enough, I did say "want" but to be more clear, my question was more aimed at " do you intend to divorce". Financial matters are one of many solid reasons why most people don't intend to divorce. Which goes to my point about speaking loosely (desiring vs intending) about things like open marriages and divorces, when you don't actually intend to do so and where it's easy to confuse the distinction between the two. When my ex-wife tended to say "I want a divorce" (often as a hyperbolic argument tactic), I tended to take it as "I intend to divorce you." In fact, for over a year of that monthly reprise, nothing really happened, until I eventually had enough and posed it - one time, meaning it, and followed through. You might be legit okay with him taking the lead on this, but you've stated above you don't intend to do it for reasons. If that's the case, beware of waving that gun around, if you don't actually intend to use it. Things can go off in unexpected directions. |
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Sept 29, 2023 5:39:47 GMT -5
MirrorOrchid ... i am not sure what to do .... i do not see much hope of being much more then roommates... ... i know i sound sarcastic and angry because that is usually how i feel when thinking about this all.... ...Divorce is a final move... it can be many things/ starting over ... maybe feeling like i failed /maybe feeling if only .... i have developed a strong friendship with my online friend but he like me in a long term marriage does not see a way out ... discussed a fwb thing, great distance between us, so arranging time/ travel and still being discreet. It seems that all of these outcomes are compatible with a more amicable relationship with either your husband or your ex. You are contemplating multiple "escapes" from your sexless marriage, one of them including resuming sexual relations with your husband (if his negligence can eventually be forgiven) None of the methods are likely to be stymied by assuming a friendlier conduct with your roommate or lover husband. Focusing on your remedies may make a transition to an acceptance of his asexual behavior towards you a more neutral stance. While refusers may think a melting away of frustration is a sign of hope. It is not. I once heard the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. (That's the quote. Apocrypha's compelling observation, not withstanding.) Your indifference to his asexual demeanor may allow for more appreciation of other contributions he does make to your life, without sacrificing your options for alternative companionship or living arrangements. Echoing Apocrypha on the divorce front, I suspect you'll want to have done the research in advance. If you do attend to normal sexual drive without his help, he may be the one to pull the trigger, disavowing his "harlot" ex. If he's as focused on appearances as you make him out to be, exposure of your FWB situation may force his hand as the appearance of a "wronged husband" who divorces may be better than that of a simpering cuckold. Accidents happen and gossip is still too popular a hobby. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Oct 1, 2023 19:22:33 GMT -5
|
|
Missingout
Junior Member
Posts: 52
Age Range: 46-50
|
Post by Missingout on Oct 21, 2023 3:59:26 GMT -5
Mirrorchild thank you for the insight .... i am not sure what to do .... i do not see much hope of being much more then roommates... I am tired of carrying the weight of the relationship for decades now. i know i sound sarcastic and angry because that is usually how i feel when thinking about this all.... i appreciate this site as i said before i wrote about the this subject on other sites and most people do not understand when a marriage gets this off course hard to find a way back. Divorce is a final move... it can be many things/ starting over ... maybe feeling like i failed /maybe feeling if only .... i have developed a strong friendship with my online friend but he like me in a long term marriage does not see a way out ... discussed s fwb thing great distance between us so arranging time/ travel and still being discreet. Where did you find this friend? I need this in my life as well. Someone to talk to that is going through the same thing. This site has kept me calm. I had a emotional affair you could call it with co worker but she is no longer interested as she has a good relationship but still talks to me. I need a deeper one tho. It made me feel alive and wanted. |
|
|
|
Post by worksforme2 on Oct 21, 2023 5:19:36 GMT -5
I was saying that for all the folks here that had people go into marriage not interested mine just lost his ability to function. Perhaps not so much lost it, as just gave it up. When i realized my own libido was deminished I knew it could not be good for the marriage. So I set about to find out why, what was happening to me. Testing showed my testerone was way low, even for a 63 yr. old, So I went on testerone replacement. My libido came back with a vengence. Unfortunately my then W had also lost her libido, but was unwilling to undergo hormone replacewment. So I was painted into the corner of a SM. No matter how many "talks" we had the dynamic only changed when I wanted to add a FWB for me. The intimacy improved for a brief period and then returned to nothing. I think for both men and women if you want sex in your relatonship you will do what is needed to have it. If one is not willing to put forth any effort it is because intimacy no longer holds the degree of importance it once did, for whatever reason. |
|
|
|
Post by toughtiger on Oct 22, 2023 11:37:16 GMT -5
Where did you find this friend? I need this in my life as well. Someone to talk to that is going through the same thing. This site has kept me calm. I had a emotional affair you could call it with co worker but she is no longer interested as she has a good relationship but still talks to me. I need a deeper one tho. It made me feel alive and wanted. we actually met on a forum that discussed current events / hobbies etc had some things in common ..... some sites also have brief discussions about marriage not as open and detailed as this but we talked about trying to help each other from a different perspective.... he told me to try things like for spouses ego etc and things he was missing in his relationship and i advised him on a few things that may work from wife perspective ...... but both had limited or no change in our spouses so we chatted in a what if capacity ... went to video chats and such as we both aware online person may not be as you thought they were... Yes many would call this friend an emotional affair as he has made me feel wanted and appreciated and frankly beautiful ... he always says i did the same for him although i have ZERO idea why his wife is not all over him .... i found some of those sites are men looking and had a few men hit on me profile which was weird because i did not have a photo up or anything ..... some women get all worked up but as they say now almost all websites are dating sites.....lmao. |
|
|
|
Post by aquacat on Oct 22, 2023 21:46:19 GMT -5
I wish i could find a friend like that as well. I feel so lonely in my marriage it depresses me. She knows she’s not meeting my needs and the few times she thinks she’s initiating sex (Do you want to do it?) it makes my skin crawl and I have to concentrate so much just to try to finish. The times I’ve tried saying no turns into an argument so I begrudgingly agree.
I don’t have that emotional connection and sadly the physical connection isn’t there either.
|
|
