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Post by csl on May 25, 2020 13:34:28 GMT -5
I personally don’t believe what you are saying. But that’s just me. It might work for you or others but I want to live a certain way myself and share my life with a woman of a certain character who wants to live in that way too. I don’t want to get involved in anything else. I want my woman to feel safe with me and I want to feel safe with them and that’s where I feel that I’d want a sexual relationship. That’s just how I am. Carl, you have no reason to apologize for your beliefs and standards.
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Post by northstarmom on May 25, 2020 14:18:27 GMT -5
Carl:" I honestly don’t look down on women who enjoy sex at all. But I can be a bit provocative sometimes. What I am saying is that I personally don’t feel comfortable with a woman unless they are, I don’t know, careful and kind around sex. I just don’t want to get hurt or into trouble. I like women who are sensitive, which I know is kind of lame, but that just works better for me. Maybe I hope I’ll be with a women who wants the same. And I guess I’ll hold out for that."
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be with women who are sensitive sex partners and who are careful about sex -- use contraception, believe in getting STD tested before engaging, etc.
My concern, however, is that you may be turned off or have unfounded suspicions about women who are enthusiastic sex partners and, for instance don't delay for a long time having sex with you. I remember one man who -- the first time I had sex with him (after a couple of dates, incidentally), knocked my socks off. I had multiple orgasms. Later, he said he was afraid I'd cheat because I'd enjoyed sex with him so much. I was not only insulted,but also his statement ruined my being able to have sexual feelings for him.
I also remember having a conversation with a male acquaintance who was virtually swiveling his head every time an attractive woman walked by who was wearing something that showed off her body to full effect. He indicated he thought such women were attractive, but never would marry one of them. He said he had married a good, Christian woman. A few minutes later, he started complaining about how "cold" his wife was. To me it seemed obvious that he didn't think sexually confident women were good enough to marry, so married a woman who was sexually repressed, but then didn't have much of a sex life....
One thing I thoroughly enjoy about post sexless marriage partner is how much he enjoys my enjoying sex and doesn't seem to judge women who have multiple partners or who are obvious about enjoying sex. I have found such men to be rare in that most men seem to fantasize about having sex with such women, but wouldn't want such a woman for a committed relationship or to have their children.
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Post by saarinista on May 25, 2020 14:54:09 GMT -5
What northstarmom said times 💯. Women who enjoy sex are often branded as sluts or just made to feel less than, even in 2020. I don't know for sure if anyone ever branded me that way, but I remember being concerned about it before I was married. The old adage "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? " isn't all that old. I think it takes a pretty strong woman to admit that she enjoys sex. I was brought up to think of sex as something that was only supposed to take place in marriage, mainly to make babies. Nothing much was said abaut enjoying it at all. As I was 35 before anyone would take me on, I was not a virgin at the altar. My logic tells me those old rules are from a time when people married vary young and died young. However, many women are still brought up to withhold sex, ration sex or avoid it unless they want to get pregnant and birth a dynasty. Under these rules, it's no surprise that many women start to shy away from sex after they have kids or whatever. Women are taught-more than men-that sex is a necessary evil, dangerous and dehumanizing. Those messages are tough to get past.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 25, 2020 15:15:40 GMT -5
Apocrypha I can see you are angry and I am sorry that you feel insulted. This is not an apology and as such, the word "sorry" is misleading. No one is pitching to you that you should want any such thing. You made a claim that appeared to be unfounded. Your wife doesn't bang you. That is a fact. The reason for it - that you believe she's a cold fish - based on what you've articulated here - that's not a fact; that's appears to be your theory. What you have not understood is that across my past 7 years in the post-marriage dating world dating women of a similar age and post-divorce circumstance in a metropolitan city, is that the majority of those women were also "straightforward" women when it came to sex and marriage, and were not into complicated affairs or extra marital experiments. Some were, when they did not have anything else to lose. Some had their own interests. And most were just women with the same common sexual tastes and desires that anyone has. They found themselves in a marriage in which they did not desire their partners. For reasons - those reasons became more apparent and easy to articulate when they left the marriage. But the common story of all of them was identical to the one you are assigning to your partner - that they were "cold" when in their marriage, and then discovered outside of that dynamic with that partner, they were not. They were able at least to enjoy the same kind of robust, "straightforward" sexual, loving, intimate relationship that you want. Your claim is that you believe your wife is cold and that she needs to be corrected somehow. Do you think if you split that she would go the rest of her life without having sex? Virtually every divorcing couple goes celibate for an extended period, prior to the end. Meeting divorced women - on DATING sites - it's one of the most common things I hear. And yet, there they are. On dating sites that they signed up for, soon after the marriage ended. Looking for a guy - who they want to enjoy in a relationship that includes sexual expression. Look around in your own circles - and divorced couples who move on. What do you think is happening out there? I am describing mainly normal people having normal, enjoyable, monogamous sex in a healthy relationship. I have at times also described rather extraordinary practices as well. And if you think that I enjoyed my wife having an affair, I don't really know what to tell you.
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Post by ironhamster on May 25, 2020 15:20:59 GMT -5
If you know what you want and can describe what you want, you are more likely to find what works for you.
Slow ride? Submissive? Tantric? There are three totally different techniques of the gentler side of sex. Read everything you can, because you want to be able to blow your partner's mind.
My belief is, no matter how slow and gentle and meditative love making starts, it all turns into wild fucking in an hour or two.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 25, 2020 15:42:45 GMT -5
Later, he said he was afraid I'd cheat because I'd enjoyed sex with him so much. I was not only insulted,but also his statement ruined my being able to have sexual feelings for him. I think northstarmom illustrates with this example the EXACT "why" at the core of most sexless marriages. Apart from ones like my own, in which my partner said "yes" when she didn't actually want to, and felt trapped immediately, I think a lot of people go through something in their married relationship that resembles northstarmom's example above. Sometimes you find something out about a person that isn't just a point of disagreement, but rather, it changes entirely the kind of person you thought your partner was. Anyone who has been hit with an affair, or surprise dumped and then tried to get back together - will immediately understand this in a way that is hard for others to grasp. It becomes a situation where it isn't a conflict to resolve, but rather a view of the kind of person your partner is. You could even still love them and still be enmeshed and committed to the household enterprise, kids etc. But you just don't see them as a sexual partner no matter how you think of them anymore. Whatever the unique qualities that attracted you previously where, that whole context is shifted by the new information. I've a few women friends in sexless marriages who also experienced a version of this in which they got so used to unwanted attention from men in their youth, that they took the wrong lesson and mistook a lack of interest in sex as proof of depth and a more meaningful relationship. Then, once married, found they'd placed themselves into a relationship with someone who literally wasn't interested in tem sexually, and they felt unloved.
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Post by ironhamster on May 25, 2020 15:56:58 GMT -5
Later, he said he was afraid I'd cheat because I'd enjoyed sex with him so much. I was not only insulted,but also his statement ruined my being able to have sexual feelings for him. I think northstarmom illustrates with this example the EXACT "why" at the core of most sexless marriages... Most. Not all, but, it's a good illustration of how the sexless component comes about. After that, we have the deception, because the refusing partner typically cannot be honest about why sex is not happening, because being honest might end the relationship along with all the attractive fringe benefits. We seem to have many refused spouses here that are by far the bread winner of the household. What a shame that we become victims because of our success and our good nature.
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Post by northstarmom on May 25, 2020 16:56:32 GMT -5
“ My logic tells me those old rules are from a time when people married vary young and died young. However, many women are still brought up to withhold sex, ration sex or avoid it unless they want to get pregnant and birth a dynast”
There also was no reliable contraception or abortion or government aid or other support for single moms.
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Post by saarinista on May 25, 2020 19:12:00 GMT -5
“ My logic tells me those old rules are from a time when people married vary young and died young. However, many women are still brought up to withhold sex, ration sex or avoid it unless they want to get pregnant and birth a dynast” There also was no reliable contraception or abortion or government aid or other support for single moms. Alas, contraceptive options still are not widely available without hassle for many.
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Post by Handy on May 25, 2020 19:18:41 GMT -5
Northstarmom ..... Later, he said he was afraid I'd cheat because I'd enjoyed sex with him so much.
Has any other woman experience something like this?
In my own mind of past insecurities, I might think I was insecure about my own ability to please a woman long term. Would she stay with me, just an average guy?
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Post by Handy on May 25, 2020 19:48:55 GMT -5
Saarinista Women are taught-more than men-that sex is a necessary evil, dangerous and dehumanizing. Those messages are tough to get past.
Saarinista, I heard the same message and thought I didn't want to be one of those guys that was only or mostly interest in a booty call, so I never pressured a woman for sex unless I was ready to marry her and have 4 kids with her while she stayed home and I worked to support everyone.
I expect other men heard the same thing and defined them-self as a man that respect a woman's sexuality limits, true or imagined, and wound up turning off the woman he married.
OTH if some men treated their W in a too sexual way, it turned the W off. It is sometimes a tough balancing act to follow.
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Post by saarinista on May 25, 2020 20:17:23 GMT -5
BTW since we're mixing sex and religion here already, let me put in an independent plug for csl's sexless Christian marriage blog, "The Curmudgeonly Librarian." It's really well done, IMHO. Thanks, csl for your thoughtful insights.
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Post by saarinista on May 25, 2020 20:24:25 GMT -5
Saarinista Women are taught-more than men-that sex is a necessary evil, dangerous and dehumanizing. Those messages are tough to get past. Saarinista, I heard the same message and thought I didn't want to be one of those guys that was only or mostly interest in a booty call, so I never pressured a woman for sex unless I was ready to marry her and have 4 kids with her while she stayed home and I worked to support everyone. I expect other men heard the same thing and defined them-self as a man that respect a woman's sexuality limits, true or imagined, and wound up turning off the woman he married. OTH if some men treated their W in a too sexual way, it turned the W off. It is sometimes a tough balancing act to follow. I agree that men, too, traditionally have been saddled with stereotypical responsibilities. But stereotypes based on random expectations rather than current realities can damage everyone. People need to be real, honest, and remember that responsibility is a two-way street, or should be. I suggest accepting nothing less in relationships.
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Post by Handy on May 25, 2020 22:02:54 GMT -5
Saarinista I agree that men, too, traditionally have been saddled with stereotypical responsibilities. But stereotypes based on random expectations rather than current realities can damage everyone.
I agree whole heartedly. The problem some men in my early generation faced was that the man was supposed to know more than the woman. Well at lest that was what pressure or expectations I was saddled with.
Like you said above, those old lessons and expectations are difficult to give up to an extent. I know one thing intellectually but it grates on what I thought was expected of me in the past.
I am learning what I thought was expected, isn't or wasn't true in many cases.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 26, 2020 5:35:05 GMT -5
What northstarmom said times 💯. The old adage "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? " I was brought up to think of sex as something that was only supposed to take place in marriage, mainly to make babies. ...My logic tells me those old rules are from a time when people married vary young and died young. However, many women are still brought up to withhold sex, ration sex or avoid it unless they want to get pregnant and birth a dynasty. If I ever hear someone say that cow line again, I'll be sorely tempted to ask. "If it stops giving milk, can you butcher it and sell the meat?" I mean, if the analogy is valid.... (big IF) As for historical roots of marriage, I imagine a huge part of it was the children sex did produce. Lack of birth control made the two virtually one and the same. A woman cheating on her husband risked having her husband supporting her (because women were largely excluded from lucrative career fields) while carrying another man's baby. Anathema! Such scandal. A husband skipping out ran no such risk to his wife. I imagine that explains much of the double standard. There's no reverse cuckoldry. Only under the oddest circumstances can a woman be tricked into raising a child that isn't hers without her knowing it. That we've retained so much of the tradition even as so much of the reasons for that tradition have vanished is a testimony to the inertia of human society. The obvious becomes difficult to accommodate.
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