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Post by mirrororchid on May 26, 2020 5:46:40 GMT -5
... the common story of all of them was identical to the one you are assigning to your partner - that they were "cold" when in their marriage, and then discovered outside of that dynamic with that partner, they were not. They were able at least to enjoy the same kind of robust, "straightforward" sexual, loving, intimate relationship that you want. ... Virtually every divorcing couple goes celibate for an extended period, prior to the end. Meeting divorced women - on DATING sites - it's one of the most common things I hear. And yet, there they are. On dating sites that they signed up for, soon after the marriage ended. Looking for a guy - who they want to enjoy in a relationship that includes sexual expression. Look around in your own circles - and divorced couples who move on. What do you think is happening out there? These women that were convinced they were "cold fish". Were any of them on that dating site? Perhaps they were there to get a new husband (you?) knowing in advance that they were "cold fish". I suspect their startled surprise at their reawakening may have taught them a great deal about themselves, but the attitude they had going in didn't bode well before they first romanced with you. They sought male companionship despite their indifference to sex. Often you've said women feel trapped as the refuser, but I've proposed the possibility that they greatly value everythign about teh marriage. They just hate the sex. I don't know that this qualifies as trapped. I wonder if any of the seven ladies you met had the expectation of frequent sex followed by the same dying down they had with number one and were on that web site fully content with that outcome. You say both refuser and refused are trapped in a sexless marriage. Maybe. But we may wish to emphasize that in at least some cases, one is trapped by reality, and one by delusion and/or fatalism. It seems as though we need two words there.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 26, 2020 5:53:57 GMT -5
BTW since we're mixing sex and religion here already, let me put in an independent plug for csl's sexless Christian marriage blog, "The Curmudgeonly Librarian." It's really well done, IMHO. Thanks, csl for your thoughtful insights. In private messages I've been leaning on him to let me make audiobook versions of his blog. He's considering it. He may also consider reading them himself (he has some experience in such work, as it turns out.) Good to hear such an endeavor might be well received. If you think of a way to drop hints, let's pile on, shall we?
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Post by csl on May 26, 2020 7:12:14 GMT -5
BTW since we're mixing sex and religion here already, let me put in an independent plug for csl's sexless Christian marriage blog, "The Curmudgeonly Librarian." It's really well done, IMHO. Thanks, csl for your thoughtful insights. Um, thank you. I can’t say more, as your wonderfully terse effulgence leaves me uncharacteristically stunned and speechless. High praise in two lines...
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Post by Apocrypha on May 26, 2020 9:39:29 GMT -5
These women that were convinced they were "cold fish".Were any of them on that dating site? All were from dating sites. That's the norm for dating in the metropolitan city where I live, at my age and stage of life. I no longer have ecosystems of single friends who hang out en masse for activities and random introductions. No. They, like me, were rather gunshy about marriage, having been through a separation or divorce either recently or not so much, and in no particular rush. In fact, several were anti-marriage at all, and very much into their own independence. Many had dated others before me, and had learned that lesson, lest I seem too self-flattering. In some cases, I was present when they made their discoveries, and that was lovely - and indeed startling for them. No, I didn't get a lot of indifference to sex. I got a lot of purposeful experimentation in trying it out, followed by a lot of enthusiasm and reflection. I have been the refuser in a serious, committed relationship, to the point that it became a crisis. It informs my experience. I don't hate sex. I didn't hate sex then. In fact, I had a rich fantasy life and desires, but found it difficult to express them with the person I was living with. And, while I recognize we are speaking loosely - I mean "feeling trapped", rather than actually trapped. This is a trap that has an open door, albeit one that is painful and frightening to walk through. I would need evidence or some kind of indication to form that belief. I had none. My aim in this is to counter the moral argument that one is "controlling" the other and to shine a light on the mystery motivations behind it all. It isn't that much of a mystery to me - when I look at what's similar in their situations. My hope is that by reframing it that way, in the way that I wish my present self could go back in time and shake myself from a decade ago, I'd be able to understand that when I'm in that situation, I have as much agency as my partner, and as much a duty to act as her. And, that rather than framing it as an oppositional problem --> as in her being an evil person doing this to me --> that having empathy for her own problem in the marriage would help me accept the facts on the ground and be able to move forward while reducing the poison of resentment in our inevitable interactions. And, to make room in life for something that works for both of us.
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Post by carl on May 26, 2020 11:35:25 GMT -5
Carl:" I honestly don’t look down on women who enjoy sex at all. But I can be a bit provocative sometimes. What I am saying is that I personally don’t feel comfortable with a woman unless they are, I don’t know, careful and kind around sex. I just don’t want to get hurt or into trouble. I like women who are sensitive, which I know is kind of lame, but that just works better for me. Maybe I hope I’ll be with a women who wants the same. And I guess I’ll hold out for that." There's nothing wrong with wanting to be with women who are sensitive sex partners and who are careful about sex -- use contraception, believe in getting STD tested before engaging, etc. My concern, however, is that you may be turned off or have unfounded suspicions about women who are enthusiastic sex partners and, for instance don't delay for a long time having sex with you. I remember one man who -- the first time I had sex with him (after a couple of dates, incidentally), knocked my socks off. I had multiple orgasms. Later, he said he was afraid I'd cheat because I'd enjoyed sex with him so much. I was not only insulted,but also his statement ruined my being able to have sexual feelings for him. I also remember having a conversation with a male acquaintance who was virtually swiveling his head every time an attractive woman walked by who was wearing something that showed off her body to full effect. He indicated he thought such women were attractive, but never would marry one of them. He said he had married a good, Christian woman. A few minutes later, he started complaining about how "cold" his wife was. To me it seemed obvious that he didn't think sexually confident women were good enough to marry, so married a woman who was sexually repressed, but then didn't have much of a sex life.... One thing I thoroughly enjoy about post sexless marriage partner is how much he enjoys my enjoying sex and doesn't seem to judge women who have multiple partners or who are obvious about enjoying sex. I have found such men to be rare in that most men seem to fantasize about having sex with such women, but wouldn't want such a woman for a committed relationship or to have their children. A delay in starting a sexual relationship works best for me because it’s too overwhelming to start it all at once. Especially if the relationship was going to be very special to me then I would like to give myself at least a year dating to allow me to adjust. Then I would be better starting the sexual side maybe as a married couple just for the feeling of security really. So what you say about the guy who didn’t trust you says to me that you didn’t get to know each other well enough first. I think your work mate who was staring at strangely dressed women has some issues with himself. But a good Christian women wouldn’t marry a man with such issues. He is committing adultery in his mind.
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Post by northstarmom on May 26, 2020 12:10:04 GMT -5
“ I think your work mate who was staring at strangely dressed women has some issues with himself. But a good Christian women wouldn’t marry a man with such issues. He is committing adultery in his mind.”
He probably didn’t do that around his wife.
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Post by saarinista on May 26, 2020 18:54:52 GMT -5
carl et al, I don't want to offend anyone, but is it pad for the course to delay sex for a year or even until after marriage these days? I realize that's a traditional religious position, but back when I was dating 20 years ago, even the supposedly practicing religious guys wanted to be sexual. In retrospect, in some cases I would have been better off waiting longer than I did. However, not having sex for a year or at all before marriage is, in my experience, unusual. That makes it tough to know whether you are sexually compatible with a person, and you've let a year go by without sex. No big deal for many of us, but I'm trying to get out of that trend! Again, everyone needs to do what fits their moral code. I'm wodering how other people see this issue.
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Post by northstarmom on May 26, 2020 19:14:47 GMT -5
a quick google search found this: “ By the 2010s, only 5 percent of new brides were virgins. At the other end of the distribution, the number of future wives who had ten or more sex partners increased from 2 percent in the 1970s to 14 percent in the 2000s, and then to 18 percent in the 2010s.Jun 6, 2016”
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Post by northstarmom on May 26, 2020 19:20:39 GMT -5
Carl said: “ A delay in starting a sexual relationship works best for me because it’s too overwhelming to start it all at once. Especially if the relationship was going to be very special to me then I would like to give myself at least a year dating to allow me to adjust....”
While I do know a couple of very religious women who still are virgins despite being in their late 20s or early 30s, I don’t think I know any mature women who would wait that long. They may wait a couple of months to learn more about the man and to develop a committed relationship but if a man wanted to wait a year, the women would wonder whether he was sexually incapable or had very low desire.
Even my friend who almost had become a nun waited for 6 months, not a year.
What do you fear you’d experience if you got sexually involved before dating the woman for a year?
Did you wait a year before becoming sexually involved with your wife? Have you ever had other partners?
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Post by mirrororchid on May 27, 2020 5:03:01 GMT -5
These women that were convinced they were "cold fish".Were any of them on that dating site? All were from dating sites. That's the norm for dating in the metropolitan city where I live, at my age and stage of life. I no longer have ecosystems of single friends who hang out en masse for activities and random introductions. No. They, like me, were rather gunshy about marriage, having been through a separation or divorce either recently or not so much, and in no particular rush. In fact, several were anti-marriage at all, and very much into their own independence. Many had dated others before me, and had learned that lesson, lest I seem too self-flattering. In some cases, I was present when they made their discoveries, and that was lovely - and indeed startling for them. No, I didn't get a lot of indifference to sex. I got a lot of purposeful experimentation in trying it out, followed by a lot of enthusiasm and reflection. I have been the refuser in a serious, committed relationship, to the point that it became a crisis. It informs my experience. I don't hate sex. I didn't hate sex then. In fact, I had a rich fantasy life and desires, but found it difficult to express them with the person I was living with. And, while I recognize we are speaking loosely - I mean "feeling trapped", rather than actually trapped. This is a trap that has an open door, albeit one that is painful and frightening to walk through. I would need evidence or some kind of indication to form that belief. I had none. My aim in this is to counter the moral argument that one is "controlling" the other and to shine a light on the mystery motivations behind it all. It isn't that much of a mystery to me - when I look at what's similar in their situations. My hope is that by reframing it that way, in the way that I wish my present self could go back in time and shake myself from a decade ago, I'd be able to understand that when I'm in that situation, I have as much agency as my partner, and as much a duty to act as her. And, that rather than framing it as an oppositional problem --> as in her being an evil person doing this to me --> that having empathy for her own problem in the marriage would help me accept the facts on the ground and be able to move forward while reducing the poison of resentment in our inevitable interactions. And, to make room in life for something that works for both of us. You say some of the healthiest shit I've ever heard. It's spooky sometimes.
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Post by isthisit on May 27, 2020 8:17:26 GMT -5
carl et al, I don't want to offend anyone, but is it pad for the course to delay sex for a year or even until after marriage these days? I realize that's a traditional religious position, but back when I was dating 20 years ago, even the supposedly practicing religious guys wanted to be sexual. In retrospect, in some cases I would have been better off waiting longer than I did. However, not having sex for a year or at all before marriage is, in my experience, unusual. That makes it tough to know whether you are sexually compatible with a person, and you've let a year go by without sex. No big deal for many of us, but I'm trying to get out of that trend! Again, everyone needs to do what fits their moral code. I'm wodering how other people see this issue. This is very interesting. So, I am in my late forties and have had two partners from age 18. One relationship of 6 years and H of 23 years. So I doubt that I fit anyone’s idea of promiscuity. However, I slept with both at around three weeks in and frankly would have thought it bizarre to prolong things an awful lot further. Now that was isthisit pre-SM. Post SM..... a rigorous appraisal process is planned. Oh yeah-I’m not falling for that again. Now I have no faith and am immune to other forms of social control. These choices reflect my personal values and wishes. But, if I met a guy who was just thrilled at my lack of a back catalogue relative to contemporary society I would move on very quickly. I have no interest in judging others who make different choices and am wholly unimpressed with those that do, even when it may be to my advantage. I intensely dislike judgey people and this is the important bit here. Who cares who has gone before? As long as they are disease free it is no-one’s concern at all.
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Post by maroonedwife on May 27, 2020 9:40:39 GMT -5
I think that back in the day when my wife started to act like a stranger to me sexually I was pretty much flat out either working at my job or at home. Sex started to become something that I should need and I had to earn from her. It changed from the giving ourselves to one another as man and wife into belittlement and over powering. Had I known at the time how very wrongly she was behaving I would have called her up on it straight away and threatened to divorce her. And I would have been right to do so. But I didn’t really know at the time although I obviously felt it, so I looked online and read as many articles and approaches that I could to find a solution. All the advice was pretty similar and ultimately very damaging to me. What I needed was strength, self respect and freedom. I hate it when sex is used to destroy those rights. I've read someof these articles also and altho I understand when one person is burdened greatly it can reduce the libido especially for women who are usually multitasking. I can relate to this somewhat as I had a heavy burden for years and it may have reduced my libido it didn't extinguish it. If I feel loved and connected to my partner I also want sexual intimacy with them. For me, I still wanted and needed sex no matter how busy I was. In my opinion, turning sex into a reward doled out for good behavior is as much Bullshit as turning sex into a robotic obligation. I think the roots of a SM are in the loss of emotional intimacy and connection in most cases. I've read that generally men feel close with sex and women feel like having sex when they feel close. When the intimacy and connection take a hit (like after a baby) or shifts (boredom, career interests, time), emotional Intimacy and connection are disconnected and a SM can occur. Sometimes the shift in libido that can occur with age is not treated and the partner experiencing this doesn't see the problem because their libido doesn't motivate them to seek out to connect with the other person. It's complicated. As there are other elements as well. I'm trying honest non-blaming discussions but ultimately I think if the relationship is connective and emotionally intimate the partners will find ways to be sexually fulfilling to each other. I once dated a man who had ED. We never had PS, not once, but sex was very fulfilling with him for me and we spent a lot of time in the bedroom. He loved the intimacy. He once suggested he could make things better for me if he took Viagra and hadn't yet because it had some risky side effects per his doctor but he still wanted to do it. My response was that I appreciated his wanting to but on my side of things I was always satisfied but if he wanted to for his own experience I would support his decision. We didn't stay together for other reasons related to family compatibility but sex wasn't a concern and I missed it when we went our separate ways. When someone is no longer interested in connection with us or puts the relationship in "the friend zone" it breaks the marriage contract. I applaud carl for taking the prudent steps to legally end something that appears to be over and find someone who wants to wants to be connected and stay connected. That's marriage. Choosing the other over and over again.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 27, 2020 10:46:16 GMT -5
I have encountered quite a few women in my dating orbits who prefer an intentional "keep it slow" approach, in a city where dating moves very fast because there are so many competitors. When I drill down a bit, I've found that many of them say they've been perfectly fine for years without having sex or making urgency toward it. I take that as a red flag that they, themselves, possibly have issues or complications around sexual expression and seek to avoid it by filling their lives with palatable alternatives --sometimes religion is included.
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Post by worksforme2 on May 27, 2020 12:42:07 GMT -5
I agree with most of what apocrypha says above. My dating experiences have been similar for the most part. Since my divorce 5 yrs. ago I have only been intimate with 2 women, both of them for extended periods of over a year each. And with both of them we were intimate on the 4th date. Like apocrypha when I see certain words in a profile or terms like "I am leading a rich, full life" or "friends first, then we'll see", I take them to be a red flag. Religion gets knocked around a lot here but a persons being religious really isn't the most important box and it doesn't deter me as my faith is important to me. And both women above were faithful in their attendance at their churches. Only one woman did I eliminate due to religion. She had to be married before she would consider sex. It takes some time and a careful sizing of peoples profile to mostly avoid those who really aren't good prospects. If I make a misread of the profile usually at the 1st meeting I can determine if a woman is a good candidate for an intimate relationship. All you have to do is ask how they feel about sex and how long has it been since they were intimate. If it isn't important to them and has been years that is a red flag as said above.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 27, 2020 13:38:21 GMT -5
Religion gets knocked around a lot here but a persons being religious really isn't the most important box and it doesn't deter me as my faith is important to me. And both women above were faithful in their attendance at their churches. Only one woman did I eliminate due to religion. She had to be married before she would consider sex. It takes some time and a careful sizing of peoples profile to mostly avoid those who really aren't good prospects. If I make a misread of the profile usually at the 1st meeting I can determine if a woman is a good candidate for an intimate relationship. All you have to do is ask how they feel about sex and how long has it been since they were intimate. If it isn't important to them and has been years that is a red flag as said above. One thing I noticed in university, decades ago: my male roommate, a acquaintance I had known in highschool, I realized was a deeply, closeted, and troubled gay man. He was also passionately Evangelical (as was his family), and put an enormous amount of energy into that. I heard after that year, that he had "come out" publicly, but has since moved back into what seemed to be a rather homophobic and outspoken. Mrs Apocrypha, who I met within a few years of that time, was herself bi. Her landlady, who lived downstairs - was also obviously a gay woman - and again, deeply closeted herself and passionately homophobic and constantly checking in with my then-gf to ask about what she was doing up there, and sometimes making excuses to take a shower up there. She said in her experience in the community, it was pretty common to see people with unwanted or complicated sexuality to become militantly religious, perhaps as a way of avoiding or resisting unwanted feelings.
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