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Post by vickie on Nov 9, 2020 0:13:58 GMT -5
It seems here I have been examining this question more frequently. I still love him. Even though here lately he has said some very hurtful things. He even told me to take our youngest daughter & live in my brother's house. (He passed away Dec 5th 2019) He said my 24yr old & his 12yr old from a previous relationship can stay with him. I am wondering if my marriage is becoming a lost cause? I invested my heart into it & my heart being ripped apart. All I know is I am hurting. Well so to speak I am taking the bull by the horns. I am going to get me some answers. I am going to ask him in front of a counselor tomorrow. At least I will have my answers. Then I will decide from their. Keep your fingers crossed. I hope I don't lose my nerve. Jerri to be truthful I don't know why he said that about our 6yr old daughter. My oldest daughter is from a previous marriage she is 24. 12yr old is his. Not another control freak. I have noticed some things he has said. He has never hit me. My ex husband hit me & mentally abused me. Jerri I must have a invisible sign around my neck saying control freaks come her. If this marriage heads south I am done. Nothing against men but I don't think I want to try anymore.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 9, 2020 5:18:39 GMT -5
It seems here I have been examining this question more frequently. I still love him. Even though here lately he has said some very hurtful things. He even told me to take our youngest daughter & live in my brother's house. (He passed away Dec 5th 2019) He said my 24yr old & his 12yr old from a previous relationship can stay with him. I am wondering if my marriage is becoming a lost cause? I invested my heart into it & my heart being ripped apart. All I know is I am hurting. Not to pry, but you said you're hurting and the details may be of use. The 24 year old can stay, he says... but he could also come with you. It also implies you can't. But I don't get eh impression you left. If you left, is the implication you could not return? It sounds like an attempt to socially isolate you from your son/family. Classic controller behavior. Not saying it is, but it's typical. Would the 12 year old join you if he/she were invited? You need not exclude your husband, but you could banish him if he says hurtful things. Your kids watching you set and keep boundaries may be very healthy for their role modelling of functional romantic relationships. Boy, are my legs tired jumping to all those conclusions. Odd point: Why does he want you to take the youngest daughter? What if he had to keep all three? Too much parenting for him? Poor baby.
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Post by Handy on Nov 9, 2020 10:13:31 GMT -5
Vickie If something happens to this marriage. I think I will throw in the towel & live by myself with my daughters.
To me that sounds better than what you have now. If you have the money to live as a single person, that would be my choice with the little I know about your situation. To me living in a poor relationship is more lonely than living alone in peace.
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Post by jerri on Nov 10, 2020 3:21:33 GMT -5
It seems here I have been examining this question more frequently. I still love him. Even though here lately he has said some very hurtful things. He even told me to take our youngest daughter & live in my brother's house. (He passed away Dec 5th 2019) He said my 24yr old & his 12yr old from a previous relationship can stay with him. I am wondering if my marriage is becoming a lost cause? I invested my heart into it & my heart being ripped apart. All I know is I am hurting. @deadzone had a great post on taking care of self I don't think you should leave. Why? You move into your brothers place- in some states it could be considered abandonment. My brother's ex tried to do it to him, he was advised to stay. Sorry about your brother, my brother passed away several years before yours. It's a wound that never heals and he was way too young. For a while I thought my H was leaving. He didn't. I cleaned up the marrige and we became close again. I was putting all the effort in at first. It seemed futile, then little by little he started reciprocating. Just like the relationship books say they will. I didn't even want to do nice things for him at first, but then it became natural and it's really not in my personality to just fight all the time. So it did me some good to reach out and be loving. I also followed the divorce busting book by Michele Weiner Davis. It helped me a lot and the sex-starved wife by the same author helped . What really clicked for me was doing your best in the relationship even if you plan on leaving until the day you plan to leave. I just didn't want to leave and if anyone was going to leave it would be need to be him. Like you, I did love him and it really turned around for us. I used several different books to help and the therapist. All of it together helped build a house of respect again. Not that this path would be good for you, but it could help someone else
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 10, 2020 7:13:14 GMT -5
It seems here I have been examining this question more frequently. I still love him. Even though here lately he has said some very hurtful things. He even told me to take our youngest daughter & live in my brother's house. (He passed away Dec 5th 2019) He said my 24yr old & his 12yr old from a previous relationship can stay with him. I am wondering if my marriage is becoming a lost cause? I invested my heart into it & my heart being ripped apart. All I know is I am hurting. @deadzone had a great post on taking care of self I don't think you should leave. Why? You move into your brothers place- in some states it could be considered abandonment. My brother's ex tried to do it to him, he was advised to stay. Sorry about your brother, my brother passed away several years before yours. It's a wound that never heals and he was way too young. For a while I thought my H was leaving. He didn't. I cleaned up the marriage and we became close again. I was putting all the effort in at first. It seemed futile, then little by little he started reciprocating. Just like the relationship books say they will. I didn't even want to do nice things for him at first, but then it became natural and it's really not in my personality to just fight all the time. So it did me some good to reach out and be loving. I also followed the divorce busting book by Michele Weiner Davis. It helped me a lot and the sex-starved wife by the same author helped . What really clicked for me was doing your best in the relationship even if you plan on leaving until the day you plan to leave. I just didn't want to leave and if anyone was going to leave it would be need to be him. Like you, I did love him and it really turned around for us. I used several different books to help and the therapist. All of it together helped build a house of respect again. Not that this path would be good for you, but it could help someone else You left out the critical part that you found someone else to fulfill the role that makes SMs... S. My dating improved my attitude and had no small part in the reset. Some refusers don't wake up until you start to replace what they are refusing you. You and I let our refusers know part of their role was being replaced. (Refusers cannot have a chance to adjust if they don't know.) I suspect endless kindness to a refuser didn't get your husband where you wanted to be (accepting a metamour.) So those books may be insufficient. By the stats on this forum, I deem it likely even. They are tools for "why chasing". vickie may not choose to open her marriage (or even consider it), but she needs to know your satisfactory outcome included more than books.
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Post by flyingsolo on Nov 10, 2020 19:52:49 GMT -5
So, I just popped in to see how things are going since I've been away for awhile. When last I checked in, my wife and I were trying counseling. It got to the point where counseling was not on a regular basis and we both admitted that we feel like we are further apart that when we started a few years ago. We've both agreed that we cannot continue on this path and neither of us wants to stay in this marriage as it currently sits if we can't find a way to be closer together. We both agree that we still love each other. She admitted as recently as today that she still wants an intimate relationship, including physical intimacy with me, but doesn't feel emotionally connected at this point. As such, physical affection is not on her radar (which still kind of puzzles me, but I guess if I understood women better, I wouldn't be in this situation). I've stayed to this point because of my kids, because I love my wife, and because it would be very expensive to leave. However, in staying, I have realized that while I've spent three and a half extra years with my kids and watched them grow every day, I am also sacrificing a normal, healthy love life and an emotional connection with a partner to share my life with, which weighs heavily on me. I'm a physical touch person and not having any physical affection in my marriage has been tough. It's literally been 3 1/2 years since I've had any kind of sex, which seems crazy to me to even have to type. In addition, my business has continued to grow to the point where I've spun off another business. The longer I stay in a broken marriage, the more expensive it gets for me and the more risk I take that I may owe my wife lifetime support. That is beginning to weigh heavily on me also as I don't want it impact future business decisions and I am starting to see my financial freedom slipping away if I don't leave soon. That being written, I've grown as a person in those 3 1/2 years and realize that the current sexless/emotionless marriage is not a sustainable long-term solution. While we co-parent very well, I will leave within the next year if we cannot rectify this situation and if my needs for affection are not met. I realize she has emotional needs and I am working really had to try to meet those, but it can be challenging based on all the damage we've both done to our relationship over the past 10 years. I am struggling to connect with her emotionally and, under her narrative, "I am not an emotional person". This is a bit frustrating for me as I have two female friends that I talk to fairly regularly, both of which have told me I am totally an emotionally available person. However, I certainly can't tell her that as I think it would cause more problems that it was worth. In the meantime, I've had another meeting with the attorney I last saw 2 1/2 years ago just to update my projected figures on alimony, child support, a potential property settlement and what I can expect to have left over to live on should it come to that. I've also done some online apartment/condo research to know what my living costs are going to be if I have to leave our marital house, which I probably will. Bottom line, if I am going to make the decision to leave, I am going to have as much info at my disposal as I can, including the financial figures where possible. Despite all this, I don't consider my marriage a failure. We have three beautiful, well adjusted kids that we never would have had it we didn't get married in the first place. I know that might sound a little cheesy, but my kids are my greatest joy and proudest accomplishment, so much more so than building the businesses I've been able to build. I know that if my marriage doesn't work out, I've done as much as I could do in my mind and it just wasn't meant to be. I'm sure my wife's narrative would be different, but there is only so much I am capable of. However, I've realized that I can no longer ignore/deny my need for physical intimacy and a connection with a woman who genuinely cares about my needs (as I will about hers). I'm not going to go out and have an affair on my wife at this point. I don't want that used against me with my kids so I'd rather we both agree that it isn't working and agree to move on. I think it would make the dissolution easier than having an affair to deal with also. How's everyone else doing?
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Post by jerri on Nov 10, 2020 20:45:20 GMT -5
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Post by baza on Nov 10, 2020 20:51:30 GMT -5
#1 - take a full and frank inventory of your marriage."Tick" #2 - have a go at counselling and honestly appraise the results. "Tick" #3 - seek relevant legal and financial advice so you can make a fully informed choice about your longer term best interests. "Tick" #4 - research the best way of helping the kids through a divorce should it prove to be going that way. "Tick" #5 - shore up your support network (it sort of looks like you might be doing this, so probably that's a "Tick" too) Looks like you've done a good job up to this point Brother flyingsolo
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Post by vickie on Nov 11, 2020 0:26:26 GMT -5
It seems here I have been examining this question more frequently. I still love him. Even though here lately he has said some very hurtful things. He even told me to take our youngest daughter & live in my brother's house. (He passed away Dec 5th 2019) He said my 24yr old & his 12yr old from a previous relationship can stay with him. I am wondering if my marriage is becoming a lost cause? I invested my heart into it & my heart being ripped apart. All I know is I am hurting. Well so to speak I am taking the bull by the horns. I am going to get me some answers. I am going to ask him in front of a counselor tomorrow. At least I will have my answers. Then I will decide from their. Keep your fingers crossed. I hope I don't lose my nerve. Jerri to be truthful I don't know why he said that about our 6yr old daughter. My oldest daughter is from a previous marriage she is 24. 12yr old is his. Not another control freak. I have noticed some things he has said. He has never hit me. My ex husband hit me & mentally abused me. Jerri I must have a invisible sign around my neck saying control freaks come here. If this marriage heads south I am done. Nothing against men but I don't think I want to try anymore.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 11, 2020 9:33:35 GMT -5
... We've both agreed that we cannot continue on this path and neither of us wants to stay in this marriage as it currently sits if we can't find a way to be closer together. We both agree that we still love each other. She admitted as recently as today that she still wants an intimate relationship, including physical intimacy with me, but doesn't feel emotionally connected at this point. As such, physical affection is not on her radar (which still kind of puzzles me, but I guess if I understood women better, I wouldn't be in this situation). I've stayed to this point because of my kids, because I love my wife, and because it would be very expensive to leave. However, in staying, I have realized that while I've spent three and a half extra years with my kids and watched them grow every day, I am also sacrificing a normal, healthy love life and an emotional connection with a partner to share my life with, which weighs heavily on me. I'm a physical touch person and not having any physical affection in my marriage has been tough. It's literally been 3 1/2 years since I've had any kind of sex, which seems crazy to me to even have to type. In addition, my business has continued to grow to the point where I've spun off another business. The longer I stay in a broken marriage, the more expensive it gets for me and the more risk I take that I may owe my wife lifetime support. That is beginning to weigh heavily on me also as I don't want it impact future business decisions and I am starting to see my financial freedom slipping away if I don't leave soon. That being written, I've grown as a person in those 3 1/2 years and realize that the current sexless/emotionless marriage is not a sustainable long-term solution. While we co-parent very well, I will leave within the next year if we cannot rectify this situation and if my needs for affection are not met. I realize she has emotional needs and I am working really had to try to meet those, but it can be challenging based on all the damage we've both done to our relationship over the past 10 years. I am struggling to connect with her emotionally ... ..., I've had another meeting with the attorney I last saw 2 1/2 years ago just to update my projected figures on alimony, child support, a potential property settlement and what I can expect to have left over to live on should it come to that.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnuptial_agreement#:~:text=A%20postnuptial%20agreement%20is%20a,of%20the%20statute%20of%20frauds. Her reaction may give you useful data. It'd give you flexibility and remove financial reasons to keep you trapped if that's all she's doing. Perhaps you have an honor or faith bond that would survive a legal dissolution. Basically, if you're legally divorced but stay in the house to co-parent thereafter, maybe the legal divorce wouldn't matter much except financially. I, personally, was ready to look after my wife in sickness and in health until she died even if she divorced me for dating. I was ready to sustain our other commitments if divorce was the cost of my broken nigh-celibacy. My marriage was sealed the day I said "I do." in front of family, friends, and God; not the day I signed a paper in a Delaware courthouse and my marriage will not be dissolved if I sign another contract at a courthouse. Devotion to all the vows you are already keeping could continue; but infidelity, as far as society is concerned, would no longer be in play. No ring, no foul. It's stupid that it works that way, but society is a little irrational. The paper matters to them a lot.
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timedelay
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Posts: 153
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by timedelay on Nov 11, 2020 11:21:15 GMT -5
So, I just popped in to see how things are going since I've been away for awhile. When last I checked in, my wife and I were trying counseling. It got to the point where counseling was not on a regular basis and we both admitted that we feel like we are further apart that when we started a few years ago. We've both agreed that we cannot continue on this path and neither of us wants to stay in this marriage as it currently sits if we can't find a way to be closer together. We both agree that we still love each other. She admitted as recently as today that she still wants an intimate relationship, including physical intimacy with me, but doesn't feel emotionally connected at this point. As such, physical affection is not on her radar (which still kind of puzzles me, but I guess if I understood women better, I wouldn't be in this situation). I've stayed to this point because of my kids, because I love my wife, and because it would be very expensive to leave. However, in staying, I have realized that while I've spent three and a half extra years with my kids and watched them grow every day, I am also sacrificing a normal, healthy love life and an emotional connection with a partner to share my life with, which weighs heavily on me. I'm a physical touch person and not having any physical affection in my marriage has been tough. It's literally been 3 1/2 years since I've had any kind of sex, which seems crazy to me to even have to type. In addition, my business has continued to grow to the point where I've spun off another business. The longer I stay in a broken marriage, the more expensive it gets for me and the more risk I take that I may owe my wife lifetime support. That is beginning to weigh heavily on me also as I don't want it impact future business decisions and I am starting to see my financial freedom slipping away if I don't leave soon. That being written, I've grown as a person in those 3 1/2 years and realize that the current sexless/emotionless marriage is not a sustainable long-term solution. While we co-parent very well, I will leave within the next year if we cannot rectify this situation and if my needs for affection are not met. I realize she has emotional needs and I am working really had to try to meet those, but it can be challenging based on all the damage we've both done to our relationship over the past 10 years. I am struggling to connect with her emotionally and, under her narrative, "I am not an emotional person". This is a bit frustrating for me as I have two female friends that I talk to fairly regularly, both of which have told me I am totally an emotionally available person. However, I certainly can't tell her that as I think it would cause more problems that it was worth. In the meantime, I've had another meeting with the attorney I last saw 2 1/2 years ago just to update my projected figures on alimony, child support, a potential property settlement and what I can expect to have left over to live on should it come to that. I've also done some online apartment/condo research to know what my living costs are going to be if I have to leave our marital house, which I probably will. Bottom line, if I am going to make the decision to leave, I am going to have as much info at my disposal as I can, including the financial figures where possible. Despite all this, I don't consider my marriage a failure. We have three beautiful, well adjusted kids that we never would have had it we didn't get married in the first place. I know that might sound a little cheesy, but my kids are my greatest joy and proudest accomplishment, so much more so than building the businesses I've been able to build. I know that if my marriage doesn't work out, I've done as much as I could do in my mind and it just wasn't meant to be. I'm sure my wife's narrative would be different, but there is only so much I am capable of. However, I've realized that I can no longer ignore/deny my need for physical intimacy and a connection with a woman who genuinely cares about my needs (as I will about hers). I'm not going to go out and have an affair on my wife at this point. I don't want that used against me with my kids so I'd rather we both agree that it isn't working and agree to move on. I think it would make the dissolution easier than having an affair to deal with also. How's everyone else doing? It's good to hear updates and it sounds like you have been moving forward at least. It's also refreshing to hear you don't consider your marriage a failure and why should you? The idea that the only relationships of value are long ones that only end with death is a load of rubbish, as we all here know. I don't think it's cheesy at all that you are proud of your kids and the job you and your wife have done in raising them. My children are what my H and I agree on wholeheartedly; we are not prepared to undo all that we've worked so hard to create in our home. If there is a way for parents to make needed changes to their own relationship without disrupting the entire family, then I'm all for that. I hope you can both continue to work together amicably to find your way back to fulfilling relationships, whether that happens with each other or with new partners in the future.
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timedelay
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Posts: 153
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by timedelay on Nov 11, 2020 12:12:14 GMT -5
For a while I thought my H was leaving. He didn't. I cleaned up the marrige and we became close again. I was putting all the effort in at first. It seemed futile, then little by little he started reciprocating. Just like the relationship books say they will. I didn't even want to do nice things for him at first, but then it became natural and it's really not in my personality to just fight all the time. So it did me some good to reach out and be loving. I also followed the divorce busting book by Michele Weiner Davis. It helped me a lot and the sex-starved wife by the same author helped . What really clicked for me was doing your best in the relationship even if you plan on leaving until the day you plan to leave. I just didn't want to leave and if anyone was going to leave it would be need to be him. Like you, I did love him and it really turned around for us. I used several different books to help and the therapist. All of it together helped build a house of respect again. Not that this path would be good for you, but it could help someone else jerri, what I'd add here is that while those books you mention can help and obviously have helped many people they can also make things much worse for the refused in a SM. I bought The Sex Starved Wife. Then I bought Getting Through to the Man You Love. The next one was The Divorce Remedy followed closely by The Sex Starved Marriage. My final attempt at taking on board the advice of Michelle Weiner Davis was Change Your Life and Everyone In It. I found the authors solution focused brief therapy approaches helpful in all of my relationships, except my marriage. At least it wasn't a complete waste of money :-D
I'm afraid though, that I have to agree with mirrororchid . I put in all that work and did my best to fix myself in every way the books suggested, all to try improving my sexless marriage. Nothing worked because my husband was simply not interested in a sexual/romantic relationship with me but would not tell me his truth. He was more than happy to watch me do all the research and reading and explain the basic premise of that authors theory to him. The central advice I took away from all of the Weiner-Davis books is that we can help our partner change their behaviour by changing our own first. It does not have to be a joint effort; if we behave as if we already have the relationship we want, then the people in our lives will begin to notice and then mirror our behaviours; our kindness, our pleasure at seeing them every day, the small acts of service we offer etc etc (correct me if there's something more powerful that you took from her writing because I haven't read anything by her for many years).
My H was fine with me trying to put my sadness out of sight and gladly went along with me behaving as if our relationship was the one I needed; never making any demands on him; not sexually, emotionally, psychologically or any other way. More sexless years went by and became decades. I still could not fix myself enough for him to want me and that impacted severely on my mental health in the end. I did not get offered the truth from him until I said I couldn't take anymore and we needed to discuss a divorce. Our relationship is much better now and we are surprisingly content with him being celibate by his own choice and me finding lovers in the polyamorous community. No cheating involved, no reset required.
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Post by jerri on Nov 12, 2020 1:22:28 GMT -5
I can only share what worked for me and the order l would do it if I could do it all over again. I don't know Vicky, don't have enough information. Just throwing different options on the table. She asked if it was a lost cause so I can only share what I thought helped me the most at different points in time.
BRB I just didn't have the same experience that you did and I just don't have examples of how the books hurt my marriage. I basically did everything backwards and it worked for me anyway because I put effort into all the techniques, at the wrong time! Hahaha!
I mistakenly thought I needed to spice the bedroom up and get sexy. It did work for a while.
I focused on trying to go without and learning to live without intimacy. In the meantime I was building a wall between me and my dear husband. It was a vicious cycle of loneliness, pushing for answers, anger, indifference, excuses, then finally intimacy- rinse and repeat.
I had enough and just gave up, I was at the point where I didn't care if he left, but I didn't want to cheat so I basically blurted out one morning that I was stepping out of the marrige for sex. Then I scrambled to read books because I just threw a handgrenade, not to mention the arguments. I did it all wrong because I read the books and started working the techniques way too late.
Those books saved my marriage and I didn't know what my role was and how I was contributing to the demise of the marrige or how to have healthy communication. Part of my problem still today is just reading without introspection. I had a very bad attitude and thought he should be reading them instead. Boy was it delicious when I learned how I could build my marrige and be more accepting and receive more love in return.
When it was clear that i would no longer get sex I could close the hotel door and have a blast and leave the world behind.
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timedelay
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Posts: 153
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by timedelay on Nov 12, 2020 9:12:51 GMT -5
Just to clarify for anyone reading this thread, the Weiner-Davis(WD) books didn't hurt my marriage. They hurt me. Like I said above, they obviously must help a lot of people or WD wouldn't have kept writing them. Jerri is an example where the WD books played a helpful role and that's great, of course. My concern is coming from the perspective of a wife who married a man on the asexual spectrum. I have no idea what it's like to be with a man who loved the sex at the beginning of the relationship and then lost interest; I'm in the 'no sex from the start' camp. These are very different perspectives and I value hearing about all the range that we come across here on iliasm. Each of us have a story that might help someone else so it's always worth sharing each of our perspectives. I can't remember which of the WD books does mention that the solutions offered don't apply to marriages where the problem is related to alcohol/drug addictions, an abusive partner OR sexual dysfunction. Maybe it was The Sex Starved Wife. Not sure what exact terminology she used but at least she was aware there are some things that all the 'fixing' in the world won't make a difference to. Unfortunately as we often say here, I didn't know what I didn't know and believed if I could apply all that the books suggested, my husband would somehow find me desirable. I did not understand when I read the book's introduction with that caveat, it was relevant to my marriage. When everything I tried didn't result in any change I felt even more of a failure and almost gave up on life itself. I had to figure out my own solutions in the end and settling for nothing but brutal honesty was central to that. Let me be very clear, I'm not blaming these books, of course we all have to take what is useful from any resources and leave the rest. Like I said already, they are in fact pretty useful for improving relationships of all kinds. I just personally won't be recommending them to anyone in a sexless marriage without a huge warning attached, because in that context they can contribute to self blame and more pointless 'why chasing', as mirrororchid mentioned.
I want to share the other experience I have of the WD books and the harm they can contribute to. A few years ago a friend asked for the name of the book she knew I'd been reading but didn't say it was for herself; she said a colleague was struggling in her marriage. I sent her the names of the WD books I'd read and I believe she bought 'Getting Through to the Man You Love'. That friend committed suicide a few months later.
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Post by Handy on Nov 12, 2020 13:25:07 GMT -5
Timedelay, my condolences about losing a friend to suicide.
My take on MWD's books is they give people hope things will improve if they follow the semi-outlined advice written in the books. That hope is a staying drug we called "Hopum" it can be addictive like opium until you determine like other drugs, it is only hurting you.
I have most of the MWD books and participated on her forum for 5+ years along with a large group of other people. There was some re-set sex but eventually most people either dropped out of the forum or got divorce.
I have 20+ relationship books and other than giving advice about setting boundaries and cleaning up my side of the street, the books didn't improve the sexual part of my marriage.
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