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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 8:53:06 GMT -5
Last week I had to travel to Chicago while my wife went to Missouri to visit a sick uncle. She came to Chicago on Thursday night to spend the weekend with me at the (company-paid-for) hotel.
While the cuddling was nice, things started to get off the rails as far as sex was concerned. We weren't in sync and, again, old triggers came up, for both of us.
We spent all day Saturday up through early Sunday morning talking through this. Wife is still very scared that I will go off and have another affair if she doesn't have sex with me for a few days. And despite her forgiving me, she is still very bothered by my outsourcing and wants to understand better why I did it and how long I was looking to outsource.
It makes my honesty policy difficult when she asks me if I loved my AP more than I ever loved her. I answered as truthfully as I could - with my AP there was no baggage and I only saw her at her best when we had no responsibilities to each other, so the comparison isn't fair.
I hope to fall in love with my wife, and she feels the same. Right now things still feel tentative and we are both still on edge. But things are still moving in the right direction. The idea that the old marriage doesn't matter any more is obviously false -- we still need to talk through issues that were not resolved, because we need to know that old habits won't come back.
As far as her fear of me straying again, I kept emphasizing that I will never do that again. I explained that it takes time to establish a relationship that could lead to that and I won't let myself get close to that any more. But she is worried that every woman I see in a social setting is a potential AP that I'll run off with. All I can say is that I would go to counseling with her before I ever let myself get into that situation again. Marriage 2.0 is all or nothing. I have no desire to sneak around and be inauthentic any more.
Her other issue was that I really didn't understand the depths of her pain during the marriage, and that took a lot of time. She needs to feel truly understood, and I got a lot closer to that. I've "owned" my issues but never had really "got" how much I hurt her, certainly not to the extent that she "got" mine. And we did finally make love early Sunday morning, and then again when we got back home.
We both feel a little like we are still walking in minefields, but it isn't stopping our being fully honest. So far, the minesweepers are exploding the old issues at a relatively safe distance, even though there is a little bit of shrapnel and noise that reaches us.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Oct 22, 2018 10:26:39 GMT -5
You are in a territory that I have not been so take this for what its worth (what's that they say about free advice?).
But I get what your W says about acknowledging her pain. Even though Im not there yet nor any where close, Ive thought alot about this as it relates to my situation. If there were ever to be a turnaround, there would necessarily have to be a lot of unpacking of resentment and all that entails. And in my case, I would have to bite my toongue and let her do her healing before I did mine.
I imagine that the unpacking comes in fits and starts instead of a continuous sequential process that could be tracked in terms of linear progress. It would be difficult to listen to without getting defensive (which would be counter productive).
In my case, there is a 20 year history. All that to say that there is a tremendous amount of energy and intertia to overcome. All without having guaranteed success in the end. But if you do it expecting success, you will surely be disappointed. If you are going to go through the healing together (yes that is a choice) regardless of ouctome, I believe its worth the effort.
The difference in my case, is Im not sure yet if W is interested in healing. Some days, I find myself chomping at the bit to kickoff the healing discussion, and I almost have were it not for last minute hesitation. Other days, Im ready to call it quits and also feel like telling her so. Until Im certain she is no longer in denial, Im in observing mode. Not sure how long that can last.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 12:06:49 GMT -5
You are in a territory that I have not been so take this for what its worth (what's that they say about free advice?). But I get what your W says about acknowledging her pain. Even though Im not there yet nor any where close, Ive thought alot about this as it relates to my situation. If there were ever to be a turnaround, there would necessarily have to be a lot of unpacking of resentment and all that entails. And in my case, I would have to bite my toongue and let her do her healing before I did mine. I imagine that the unpacking comes in fits and starts instead of a continuous sequential process that could be tracked in terms of linear progress. It would be difficult to listen to without getting defensive (which would be counter productive). In my case, there is a 20 year history. All that to say that there is a tremendous amount of energy and intertia to overcome. All without having guaranteed success in the end. But if you do it expecting success, you will surely be disappointed. If you are going to go through the healing together (yes that is a choice) regardless of ouctome, I believe its worth the effort. The difference in my case, is Im not sure yet if W is interested in healing. Some days, I find myself chomping at the bit to kickoff the healing discussion, and I almost have were it not for last minute hesitation. Other days, Im ready to call it quits and also feel like telling her so. Until Im certain she is no longer in denial, Im in observing mode. Not sure how long that can last. In my case, it was the decision to divorce that prompted the reboot. Once she knew I was serious (that I had spoken to lawyers, that I was looking at places to live, etc.) and then shortly thereafter that I had outsourced, we spent a couple of weeks walking on a bed of nails before things started to improve, almost despite ourselves. (And much of that is because of a conscious decision to spend time kissing, to take the edge off what we assumed was an upcoming war over alimony and assets. Both of us thought to an extent we were manipulating the other one with the kissing, and in the end we were both successful at that manipulation!) The honesty/authenticity is absolutely the biggest change. Both in terms of what is being said and not avoiding what used to be unsaid. Both of us are welcoming and are (by default at least) accepting of what the other one has to say. I mentioned this weekend that she says she is always honest about her feelings, but I wish she would have shown her pain and vulnerability during the 31 years of marriage by crying instead of attacking, which was what caused me to withdraw. She of course had reason to be angry but she never showed me her hurt. Now she does, even if it is about history. The other biggest change, and I can't overemphasize this, is that we are now assuming the best about the other and not the worst. If one of us does something that seems off, instead of coming up with an internal story that is almost invariably false, we just ask each other what happened. (Usually...some old habits die hard.) We aren't 100% there yet. My wife tests me, and has told me so, to see if what I'm saying is consistent and true. I'm fine with that because I no longer have anything to hide. It is very freeing to just be able to talk and ask questions without fear. And that includes not avoiding topics out of a misplaced idea that bringing them up will hurt. Although I will refuse to answer some questions, saying that unless I understand a clear advantage for her to know the details about something with my outsourcing for example, I won't answer. Today I'm working from home. Every couple of hours I get the urge to find where my wife is in the house and kiss her. She absolutely loves it. So do I! Whether you decide to stay or go, the healing discussion cannot be a bad thing. As long as it is really authentic and includes a lot of love and understanding. If your wife isn't a jerk then she very possibly wants things to change as badly as you do. Someone has to make the first move! And if it goes south, then your decision is made for you. |
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Post by csl on Oct 22, 2018 14:21:01 GMT -5
[...] Her other issue was that I really didn't understand the depths of her pain during the marriage, and that took a lot of time. She needs to feel truly understood, and I got a lot closer to that. I've "owned" my issues but never had really "got" how much I hurt her, certainly not to the extent that she "got" mine. And we did finally make love early Sunday morning, and then again when we got back home. We both feel a little like we are still walking in minefields, but it isn't stopping our being fully honest. So far, the minesweepers are exploding the old issues at a relatively safe distance, even though there is a little bit of shrapnel and noise that reaches us. Although you are not Christian, I would recommend that both you and your wife spend some time reading the blog of a friend of mine, Chris, over at Forgiven Wife. Chris was a refusing wife, and much of it came from her emotional pain. She has done a ton of writing about the hurts of both her and her husband, and her posts might help to give you insight into your wife's emotions. For a Cliffnote version, read the post A Wife's Heart and the Coloquy that followed on my blog, where Chris and I did a number of posts discussing this topic. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 14:40:01 GMT -5
Thanks, csl. I first became aware of my wife needing me to listen to her emotional issues last year, but since so many of them were negative towards me, I pretty much ran away. Now I can listen to her much better. It appears that I am already doing much of the advice in that article, but A Wife's Heart is a good read. |
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Post by baza on Oct 22, 2018 17:12:55 GMT -5
This policy you are running of "truth" (or at the very least "no bullshit") still seems to be working, and moving your deal forward Brother @shynjdude .
It is not, however, a linear process.
But this time last year, you were posting about "coping mechanisms to stay in an ILIASM shithole".
So taking a wider view - of what October 2018 is like compared to October 2017 - it would seem that you have a much *better* set of problems to deal with today than you had a year ago.
That's progress.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 18:28:47 GMT -5
This policy you are running of "truth" (or at the very least "no bullshit") still seems to be working, and moving your deal forward Brother @shynjdude . It is not, however, a linear process. But this time last year, you were posting about "coping mechanisms to stay in an ILIASM shithole". So taking a wider view - of what October 2018 is like compared to October 2017 - it would seem that you have a much *better* set of problems to deal with today than you had a year ago. That's progress. This is certainly true. A year ago my marriage was something I was hoping to survive. How to cope with the shithole. No thought about leaving, and certainly no inkling that the marriage could improve. The only thing I had to look forward to was outsourcing. (Which was great and helped me gain the confidence and self esteem I had completely lost.) Right now I look at the marriage as a second marriage, with some baggage but much more potential for the future - like any other second marriage. It is a sea change. While we are not yet certain of the future, I am still trying to figure out whether what we did can be applied to other shithole marriages to give them new life. It isn't just a better set of problems. It is a set of problems I am looking forward to solving with my "new" partner. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2018 12:32:18 GMT -5
Not much to update. Things are still doing well.
(Cue scary Halloween music)
Maybe TOO well.
It really feels like I'm living in an alternate universe with someone who resembles my wife. It's like something out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Who is this woman?
She's been making my lunches. Whoa.
And putting in love notes. WHOA.
With smiley faces. WHOA!
She started calling me "cupcake." Huh?
Last night I was exhausted and she seduced me.
WHOA!!!
I don't know who this woman is. Maybe she is an alien or an android. Maybe she's using me to take over Earth.
But whoever or whatever she is, I don't want the original to return.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 31, 2018 13:15:10 GMT -5
I think it is the product of hard work, Cupcake. Your and hers.
I for one am still over here cheering marriage 2.0 on!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2018 14:15:11 GMT -5
I told her I'd prefer to be a lollipop than a cupcake....
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Post by workingonit on Oct 31, 2018 14:24:12 GMT -5
I told her I'd prefer to be a lollipop than a cupcake.... Haha! I hope you said it with a wink and a leer. Very well played 😉 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 22:22:26 GMT -5
Things are pretty much the same. Which is good!
As I mentioned, her triggers are things I do that might indicate I'll outsource again, mine are things she does that might indicate that she'll turn sex off again. The good news is that both of us are trying to reassure the other that the other's fears are unfounded.
So I mentioned this in therapy, saying that I was a little worried because I always seem to initiate sex (except after a fight.) The therapist asked me if that was true, and then I realized that my wife has indeed initiated on her own - my fear was unfounded. (And that very night she did again.)
It has been just about four months now into this marriage reboot. I see no reason at this point to be pessimistic.
I feel like a unicorn on this forum.
In terms of whether it is possible to apply these lessons to any other SMs, I'm not so sure. As has been discussed, everyone has to get their own shit together (in an SM or not.) It seems to me that the only hope for a real turnaround in an SM is when both parties work on getting their shit together - simultaneously. That's a pretty tall order. (That's besides the possibility of falling back into old habits - it is very difficult to shed decades of bad habits!)
But I don't think an SM can be truly turned around with anything less than a total reboot and radical change from both partners. And even if that can occur, there is no guarantee.
Unicorn. But I'm not complaining!
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Post by baza on Nov 10, 2018 23:25:17 GMT -5
This bit - "But I don't think an SM can be truly turned around with anything less than a total reboot and radical change from both partners. And even if that can occur, there is no guarantee" - is just soooo true. The ILIASM deal HAS to put squarely on the line if it is to be brought to resolution. The old deal has to be taken out the back and shot, or euthanised in some humane way to bring it to finality. What has gone before can no longer be tolerated....it has to end. And there's the first roadblock - your willingness to put the marriage on the line. And mean it. And be prepared for it. If you take a look at any member in here who has brought their ILIASM deal to resolution, the one common characteristic is that they got to a point where they were prepared to put the marriage on the line. This is so in cases where the method of resolution was divorce - say in the style of Sister nyartgal or Brother shamwow and numerous others. Or the really really rare re-boot resolution - like say Brother timeforliving2 as probably the best example in the membership. On a more personal note Brother @shynjdude - it's now about 4 months (?) since you put your deal on the line and adopted a strategy of no bullshit. FWIW I have never seen a "re-set sex" scenario ever go this long (they usually peter out in a few days or weeks, or 2 months tops) May you and your missus continue your respective sorting out of your own shit. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2018 19:09:21 GMT -5
It is time for me to say goodbye to ILIASM.
I had stupidly kept in touch with my AP even after my wife and I were fixing things. I thought since I would not even let those interactions come close to anything beyond basic checking in and certainly nothing romantic, I wasn't doing anything wrong .But deep down I did know it was wrong.
Last week my wife asked me if I kept in touch with my AP, and I answered honestly. She was indeed very upset. Given that she was just starting to trust me after my infidelities, this really hit her hard and she was crushed, not sure if she can forgive me this time. Of course, in retrospect, I should have realized that this was a very bad idea.
I need to fix things. I want the marriage to work and that means 100%, not 99%. Part of the 100% is to make sure that I stay away from doing anything like that again. Given that my other ex-AP is still on this board, it is not possible for me to stay here either.
And as things have progressed in the marriage, I have been feeling less and less like I belong here anyway.
You guys are all great, and I'll miss hanging out here.
Good luck to all of you in your journeys through life.
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Post by baza on Nov 18, 2018 19:39:22 GMT -5
I am feeling quite ambivalent about all this former Brother @shynjdude .
On one hand I am pissed that your run of stories is now (given your deleted status) not readily accessible - and that run of stories contained a heap of valuable material for newbies to reference.
On the other hand it is great that you have fully committed to a choice.
And if you keep to your 'no bullshit' policy, you will end up with a truth based outcome...and that has to be a good thing.
Best wishes on your journey - and sincere thanks for your contributions to the group.
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