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Post by hopingforachange on Oct 1, 2017 13:56:28 GMT -5
She's just telling you shit, to keep you running around in circles like a dog chasing it's own tail. That way she doesn't even need to toss the stick for you.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 1, 2017 14:04:16 GMT -5
.."We both have our needs and desires, and if you expect me to take care of yours, then you have to take care of mine too. If you don't want to do so, then I can either find someone else willing to do so (the FWB), or we can end this marriage that is apparently unfulfilling to both of us.". Thanks for that - only problem is that, if she did say OK, it would feel like manipulation IE: she'd have sex for me, not with me. Maybe I'm hiding behind my own issues on that point (and maybe I should seek counseling on that score). In short: I gotta believe my sexual partner really wants me or it just more masturbation. That's the rub, isn't it (pun intended)? You want someone to desire you but you have no control over that. By asking you to "woo" her, she has set a target for you to strive toward. But the target is intentionally being moved. It is always unattainable and always will be most likely. You can't force another person to desire you. On your case you don't want to manipulate so you can't even "force" compliance or acquiescence. So the question is how long you are willing to jump through ever moving hoops in the hope she will "come to her senses" and want you the same way you want her? Some people do this forever. Some eventually reach a breaking point. When this happens the hoop mover may actually let you get through a few hoops. In terms of the forum here, reset you. This is usually frustrating and most who go this route are miserable. Most people have a breaking point. And I can tell you that if and when you reach that breaking point the look in her eyes won't be "I'm losing this man I desire" but, instead, "I really fucked up". At least that was the look I got when I announced time of death on my marriage to my former roommate. |
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Post by M2G on Oct 1, 2017 15:18:54 GMT -5
Thanks for that - only problem is that, if she did say OK, it would feel like manipulation IE: she'd have sex for me, not with me. Maybe I'm hiding behind my own issues on that point (and maybe I should seek counseling on that score). In short: I gotta believe my sexual partner really wants me or it just more masturbation. That's the rub, isn't it (pun intended)? You want someone to desire you but you have no control over that. By asking you to "woo" her, she has set a target for you to strive toward. But the target is intentionally being moved. <snip> You really hit that one square on the head - thank you. |
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Post by baza on Oct 1, 2017 23:07:47 GMT -5
If your missus wanted to be "wooed", then she would be behaving in woo-able fashion. And clearly, her behaviour is about as far as you could imagine from woo-able. So you can heavily discount - or ignore completely - what she *says* as having any particular relevance. She likely loves what being married to you brings to the table (financier, child minder, social prop etc) but it doesn't follow that she regards you - the individual - particularly highly at all. If you look at her actions and behaviours in that context, then her position makes perfect sense. There are aspects of the marriage she obviously likes - but having a robust sex life with you is not one of them. But if she was to level with you, and say "look M2G , I don't want sex with you, never really did, and I don't see that changing in the future" it would likely bring the whole deal crashing down around your respective ears. And that is NOT what she wants. Like most refusive spouses, she does not want you, but she does want you around. So it suits her agenda to spin you lines of bullshit, to get you "why chasing" and get your focus off the core issue. As mentioned above, if you can put her actions / behaviour into that context, it might make more sense. At this point you appear to be putting her actions / behaviours into a context of her actually harbouring a desire to fuck you six ways to Sunday *if only you could find the key* I think that context is somewhat inaccurate. There's no evidence to back it up. |
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Post by shamwow on Oct 2, 2017 1:03:29 GMT -5
One quote stood out at me a long time ago.
"She doesn't love YOU. She loves the CONCEPT of you."
It's hard to beat a concept, brother.
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Post by iceman on Oct 2, 2017 13:42:34 GMT -5
My take on this is that it's a diversion tactic by your wife. She won't tell you what 'wooing' means and if she did I'm betting she'd suddenly come up with something else for you to do before she'd be willing to have sex.
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Post by wanderlust on Oct 2, 2017 13:45:31 GMT -5
Think about that for a minute... SHE CONSIDERS SEX WITH YOU AS UNPLEASANT SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU That hit like a fist in the gut - and I thank you for it. I suppose I'm going to try to satisfy this one - then see what else may "pop up" afterward what comes next - or maybe just ask her point blank if the above statements are indeed the case (which I expect they are). I see your point too RE: "but you do it because it is meaningful to your partner." Maybe I'm being too hard-headed on that point, because it causes performance issues which, I must admit, probably contributed to this whole mess way back at the start. I am really not in the position to give advice. I don't know what will work. I am experiencing similar issues. This is my first attempt at resoloution. I understand that odds are against us. If this is a person that you really love and want to have in your life you must be commited to bring about change. Address the issue of intimacy, not sex. Sex after all is just... sex. Intimacy is the bond that separates a marriage from all other relationships and what binds 2 soles together as one. All that we want is happiness and fulfilment within our marriages. It is not too much to ask. Communication is key. If your spouse loves you they will be receptive. If she is not, it is time to weigh the stay, cheat, leave option. |
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Post by M2G on Oct 3, 2017 5:35:44 GMT -5
That hit like a fist in the gut - and I thank you for it. I suppose I'm going to try to satisfy this one - then see what else may "pop up" afterward what comes next - or maybe just ask her point blank if the above statements are indeed the case (which I expect they are). I see your point too RE: "but you do it because it is meaningful to your partner." Maybe I'm being too hard-headed on that point, because it causes performance issues which, I must admit, probably contributed to this whole mess way back at the start. I am really not in the position to give advice. I don't know what will work. I am experiencing similar issues. This is my first attempt at resoloution. I understand that odds are against us. If this is a person that you really love and want to have in your life you must be commited to bring about change. Address the issue of intimacy, not sex. Sex after all is just... sex. Intimacy is the bond that separates a marriage from all other relationships and what binds 2 soles together as one. All that we want is happiness and fulfilment within our marriages. It is not too much to ask. Communication is key. If your spouse loves you they will be receptive. If she is not, it is time to weigh the stay, cheat, leave option. Thanks Wanderlust, I appreciate that and hope you (and everyone else here) make progress toward a positive solution. Before I got wound up to take immediate action (as I must sadly admit I am prone to doing in many areas of my life) I decided to take a step back and think really hard about my own negative contributions to this SM situation. There are many. Maybe I will detail them later once it's sorted. I went to take a few personality tests (RE: disorders, not type) and very frankly the consistency of the outcome across multiple tests scared the living shit out of me. I could be an asshole (joking, but really not completely.) As I mentioned before - I am not always easy to live with. There's never been any physical abuse, but for sure I've played a huge part in bringing our relationship to where it stands at the moment. Words at times can be like bullets. Time to take a really good hard look at myself, before I do something that I will regret for the rest of my like - too much of that, already. Thanks again for all the help and support. I'll you all know how it goes. |
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 3, 2017 6:31:33 GMT -5
"I suppose I'm going to try to satisfy this one - then see what else may "pop up" afterward what comes next - or maybe just ask her point blank if the above statements are indeed the case (which I expect they are)."
Most refusers will not admit the truth that they are not sexually attracted to their mates nor do they have any desire to fuck them. They know if they admit that, it would end the marriage, a marriage that for nonsexual reasons -- finances, companionship, childcare, prestige-- they want to keep.
So refusers avoid sex by setting unrealistic goals, avoiding the subject, making themselves scarce or unappealing, inserting kids sometimes literarly between themselves and their mate. And the refused hang onto hope and a marriage that never will be what they want.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 3, 2017 6:36:47 GMT -5
Miles2go if you have been verbally or emotionally abusive what have you done to change? Have you gotten therapy to learn to deal with your desires and emotions without hurting another? Have you sincerely apologized and offered to go to counseling with her to heal the wounds you inflicted on her and your marriage?
Victims of verbal abuse say the wounds are worse than physical abuse. I grew up in a house with verbal abuse. It was hell to live in. I wish my parents had divorced.
I think that verbal abuse is so caustic that it is probably impossible for a person who has been victimized by it to develop the sense of trust to welcome physical or emotional intimacy with the person who inflicted it. It wounds to the heart and soul.
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Post by M2G on Oct 3, 2017 23:03:37 GMT -5
Miles2go if you have been verbally or emotionally abusive what have you done to change? Have you gotten therapy to learn to deal with your desires and emotions without hurting another? Have you sincerely apologized and offered to go to counseling with her to heal the wounds you inflicted on her and your marriage? Victims of verbal abuse say the wounds are worse than physical abuse. I grew up in a house with verbal abuse. It was hell to live in. I wish my parents had divorced. I think that verbal abuse is so caustic that it is probably impossible for a person who has been victimized by it to develop the sense of trust to welcome physical or emotional intimacy with the person who inflicted it. It wounds to the heart and soul. It was always a 2-way street, our fighting. We were both brought up by abusive parents, so both of us cultivated a tendency to fly into defensive mode when perceiving a threat, however small, or only imagined. On my part, a hard headed asshole, especially when alcohol was a factor. Never though, did I demean her as a person; no picking at weaknesses or personal insults or put downs - just that i always had to be right. And loud about it. All that pain over basically nothing. What a waste. Oh her part, oh boy. Insult city. Nothing was sacred, I will tell you. What I did, was to stop drinking. Was given an ultimatum, and I chose my wife over alcohol. First no drinking at home. Then after a few to six months or so I just gave it up when away from home also, as a "no more fun" thing. That was a little over 2 years ago. Apologized many times. For sure will apologize again. The apologies ( I hope) gradually get taken more seriously the longer we go without an "eruption." Also it never hurts go out of ones way to be nice. Last spat, two weeks or so back - she'd stayed up drinking all night and went off screaming at me over getting up when it was time for work. I didn't answer shit, nor say anything at all. Refusal to engage or escalate. W taught me that. I just went to shower without a word. She shouted her way up the stairs to bed. When I got home that evening I was greeted by an apology, which I accepted without condition. W is heavily into her online therapy group. Been so for a few years. Its helping a lot. As I mentioned before she's become quite good at helping others in there. I read books. 3 hours driving minimum every day gives one a lot of time to listen to audio books, and think. This board is helping also. Thanks. PS: yeah, we kind of take turns using the bed. PPS: thinking all this stuff through and writing it down in here, truthfully, is helping a great deal as well. |
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Post by baza on Oct 3, 2017 23:36:05 GMT -5
The concept of sorting out your own shit first is a very sound basis to work from Brother M2G . And you appear to be well underway this challenging process. What your missus might do is a matter over which you have no control whatsoever. That is her responsibility, and no-one but her can do it. But, if you get *your* shit sorted out, you have then done *your* job. Your marriage might survive this process, or it might not, but if you come out the other end of the process as the authentic M2G , then you will be well placed to deal with whatever your life circumstances might be at that time. |
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Post by baza on Oct 4, 2017 0:34:12 GMT -5
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Post by M2G on Oct 4, 2017 4:55:27 GMT -5
Excellent post and thanks for the link Baza. If anyone else is interested in some online self improvement, or just want to find a better way to deal with abusers (wife, family, co-workers or whatever) I would highly recommend this one: outofthefog.net I'm not going there; seems to me it would be a betrayal, and I don't want her thinking I'm just spying on her because that would likely lead to disaster. Long as she keeps trying, I will stick with it. |
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 4, 2017 6:36:34 GMT -5
"she'd stayed up drinking all night and went off screaming at me over getting up when it was time for work. I didn't answer shit, nor say anything at all. Refusal to engage or escalate. W taught me that. I just went to shower without a word. She shouted her way up the stairs to bed. When I got home that evening I was greeted by an apology, which I accepted without condition."
Sounds like alcohol also is a problem for her.
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