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Post by shamwow on May 10, 2017 16:08:39 GMT -5
I thought I could too. My ex-wife thought similarly. Hindsight, in weighing the best chance of success - would have had me focusing on the l-o-o-o-ng term trajectory, resulting from the direction we chose when we each said "good enough". If sex is the product of desire and your partner does not desire you, then the sex you have will be (at least on one side of it), sex with a person who doesn't desire you. My ex and I engaged in various iterations to make that work for quite some time, and managed to make things very much worse. If the sex she has with you is depletive for her, and restorative for you - what do you think the prospects will be, sexually, say, a month out? 6 months? 5 years? 15 years? As you continue to grow together and know each other across a decade, do you think she will be able to hide her disinterest or aversion from you, during the act? How do you think you will feel, knowing that, and still expecting sex from her? How do you think SHE will feel about you, and the way you feel about her, when you still want sex with her despite her disinterest being established? I'm not suggesting to you to take one direction or another... More just encouraging you to consider the consequence of directions that I didn't at the time, mainly because I considered the issue to be a recent one (at the time) and more of an event to be overcome, rather than a fundamental misalignment between us. Intent to "save the relationship" still doesn't mean desire. I don't know what does, but that doesn't mean there's not an answer to that question. Thanks for the insights. I can say that some of your concerns don't apply though. The issue hasn't been an aversion to or distaste for sex but rather an emotional indifference towards it. She enjoys it under the right circumstances and isn't unhappy after but has always placed it lower on the priority list than I would like. Life got in the way easily and she never saw it as a big deal. The physical discomfort is also a deterrent but she has committed to finding a solution. The reason I am hopeful is that (I hope at least) she now understands that it is a big deal for me. She understands the lonely feeling even though lack of sex wouldn't cause her to feel that way. She was receptive when I compared it to her need for shared activities and time together in other ways. Of course, I won't know for sure right away, but there were enough signs to lead me to believe such. Aversion, distaste, emotional indifference. Of these three, I would consider the last to be the most damning. Aversion or distaste (perhaps due to abuse or a previous bad experience) would be understandable, if maddening. Emotional indifference means she understands your needs, and yet doesn't give enough of a shit to make the effort. Actions, my friend, speak louder than words. And after this kind of talk, you will know the outcome within days. How you process that is up to you. I truly wish you luck. |
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Post by csl on May 10, 2017 20:58:44 GMT -5
Aversion, distaste, emotional indifference. Of these three, I would consider the last to be the most damning. Aversion or distaste (perhaps due to abuse or a previous bad experience) would be understandable, if maddening. Emotional indifference means she understands your needs, and yet doesn't give enough of a shit to make the effort. Actions, my friend, speak louder than words. And after this kind of talk, you will know the outcome within days. How you process that is up to you. I truly wish you luck. Wife #1 - "Sex? I hate sex! Never mention sex to me again!!!" Wife #2 - "Ew, gross? Sex is filthy and nasty! You're disgusting, you little pervert!: Wife #3 - "Sex? Meh. I can take it or leave it." And you think wife #3 is the monster? Emotional indifference does NOT mean she doesn't give a shyte about you. H's sentence was "emotional indifference towards it". IT, not ME. Indifference doesn't have to convey ill-will, but can simply mean ignorance, as in, "Oh, it means that much to you?" Maybe I'm too much of a Pollyanna (yeah, right!) but to make automatic assumptions of ill-will seems overly cynical. On my blog, I've been known to tell my readers "Just because you have a dick doesn't mean you have to be one." Maybe it's time to realize that just because you've experienced a SM sh*thole doesn't mean you have to be an asshole." (Yes, I'm a Christian, but I can speak Assholish tolerable well.) |
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Post by shamwow on May 10, 2017 22:43:28 GMT -5
Aversion, distaste, emotional indifference. Of these three, I would consider the last to be the most damning. Aversion or distaste (perhaps due to abuse or a previous bad experience) would be understandable, if maddening. Emotional indifference means she understands your needs, and yet doesn't give enough of a shit to make the effort. Actions, my friend, speak louder than words. And after this kind of talk, you will know the outcome within days. How you process that is up to you. I truly wish you luck. Wife #1 - "Sex? I hate sex! Never mention sex to me again!!!" Wife #2 - "Ew, gross? Sex is filthy and nasty! You're disgusting, you little pervert!: Wife #3 - "Sex? Meh. I can take it or leave it." And you think wife #3 is the monster? Emotional indifference does NOT mean she doesn't give a shyte about you. H's sentence was "emotional indifference towards it". IT, not ME. Indifference doesn't have to convey ill-will, but can simply mean ignorance, as in, "Oh, it means that much to you?" Maybe I'm too much of a Pollyanna (yeah, right!) but to make automatic assumptions of ill-will seems overly cynical. On my blog, I've been known to tell my readers "Just because you have a dick doesn't mean you have to be one." Maybe it's time to realize that just because you've experienced a SM sh*thole doesn't mean you have to be an asshole." (Yes, I'm a Christian, but I can speak Assholish tolerable well.) I still stand by my point. If someone has a physical or mental revulsion to sex (aversion or distaste) then there is at least a reason (albeit unsatisfactory to you) as to why they will not engage. Emotional indifference? Well there isn't a reason why. They just don't care enough about you to make the effort. I happen to think that is worse. I am not a Christian myself. However 1 Corinthians does list faith, hope, and love as being the most important things. And love is the most important of these. It's quoted at about 75 percent of Christian weddings. The inability to overcome revulsion is not necessarily the a absence of love. Indifference? That is a choice. And not a very loving one. But perhaps I am just an asshole (or maybe a dick.. Not sure if the exact assertion). It certainly would not be my first accusation of it. But thanks for letting me know what I am from the Christian perspective. Very Christ-like, brother. |
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Post by snowman12345 on May 10, 2017 22:45:46 GMT -5
Aversion, distaste, emotional indifference. Of these three, I would consider the last to be the most damning. Aversion or distaste (perhaps due to abuse or a previous bad experience) would be understandable, if maddening. Emotional indifference means she understands your needs, and yet doesn't give enough of a shit to make the effort. Actions, my friend, speak louder than words. And after this kind of talk, you will know the outcome within days. How you process that is up to you. I truly wish you luck. Wife #1 - "Sex? I hate sex! Never mention sex to me again!!!" Wife #2 - "Ew, gross? Sex is filthy and nasty! You're disgusting, you little pervert!: Wife #3 - "Sex? Meh. I can take it or leave it." And you think wife #3 is the monster? Emotional indifference does NOT mean she doesn't give a shyte about you. H's sentence was "emotional indifference towards it". IT, not ME. Indifference doesn't have to convey ill-will, but can simply mean ignorance, as in, "Oh, it means that much to you?" Maybe I'm too much of a Pollyanna (yeah, right!) but to make automatic assumptions of ill-will seems overly cynical. On my blog, I've been known to tell my readers "Just because you have a dick doesn't mean you have to be one." Maybe it's time to realize that just because you've experienced a SM sh*thole doesn't mean you have to be an asshole." (Yes, I'm a Christian, but I can speak Assholish tolerable well.) But HE is who SHE does IT with. You can't really separate the two. Knowing that he cherishes the sex with her makes her indifference all the more painful. Wives 1 and 2 have made their feelings known - they have made their choices and have announced them. You know exactly where you stand with either one. Wife 3 leaves her husband hanging while she makes up her mind (taking years to do). That makes her the asshole. I don't understand why you are calling the husband in this situation the asshole - it makes no sense. Christian or not. |
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Post by h on May 11, 2017 6:56:53 GMT -5
Aversion, distaste, emotional indifference. Of these three, I would consider the last to be the most damning. Aversion or distaste (perhaps due to abuse or a previous bad experience) would be understandable, if maddening. Emotional indifference means she understands your needs, and yet doesn't give enough of a shit to make the effort. Actions, my friend, speak louder than words. And after this kind of talk, you will know the outcome within days. How you process that is up to you. I truly wish you luck. Wife #1 - "Sex? I hate sex! Never mention sex to me again!!!" Wife #2 - "Ew, gross? Sex is filthy and nasty! You're disgusting, you little pervert!: Wife #3 - "Sex? Meh. I can take it or leave it." And you think wife #3 is the monster? Emotional indifference does NOT mean she doesn't give a shyte about you. H's sentence was "emotional indifference towards it". IT, not ME. Indifference doesn't have to convey ill-will, but can simply mean ignorance, as in, "Oh, it means that much to you?" Maybe I'm too much of a Pollyanna (yeah, right!) but to make automatic assumptions of ill-will seems overly cynical. On my blog, I've been known to tell my readers "Just because you have a dick doesn't mean you have to be one." Maybe it's time to realize that just because you've experienced a SM sh*thole doesn't mean you have to be an asshole." (Yes, I'm a Christian, but I can speak Assholish tolerable well.) Thank you. I guess I'm not good at choosing the right words to get my point across. My belief is that she doesn't know how much sex means to me because she doesn't have the same feelings about it. She doesn't get the same things from it that I do and so she hasn't understood why it was important. My hope is that even if she doesn't fully understand my need, at least she will care about me enough to see it as valid and deserving of her attention. |
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Post by h on May 11, 2017 7:37:53 GMT -5
Wife #1 - "Sex? I hate sex! Never mention sex to me again!!!" Wife #2 - "Ew, gross? Sex is filthy and nasty! You're disgusting, you little pervert!: Wife #3 - "Sex? Meh. I can take it or leave it." And you think wife #3 is the monster? Emotional indifference does NOT mean she doesn't give a shyte about you. H's sentence was "emotional indifference towards it". IT, not ME. Indifference doesn't have to convey ill-will, but can simply mean ignorance, as in, "Oh, it means that much to you?" Maybe I'm too much of a Pollyanna (yeah, right!) but to make automatic assumptions of ill-will seems overly cynical. On my blog, I've been known to tell my readers "Just because you have a dick doesn't mean you have to be one." Maybe it's time to realize that just because you've experienced a SM sh*thole doesn't mean you have to be an asshole." (Yes, I'm a Christian, but I can speak Assholish tolerable well.) I still stand by my point. If someone has a physical or mental revulsion to sex (aversion or distaste) then there is at least a reason (albeit unsatisfactory to you) as to why they will not engage. Emotional indifference? Well there isn't a reason why. They just don't care enough about you to make the effort. I happen to think that is worse. I am not a Christian myself. However 1 Corinthians does list faith, hope, and love as being the most important things. And love is the most important of these. It's quoted at about 75 percent of Christian weddings. The inability to overcome revulsion is not necessarily the a absence of love. Indifference? That is a choice. And not a very loving one. But perhaps I am just an asshole (or maybe a dick.. Not sure if the exact assertion). It certainly would not be my first accusation of it. But thanks for letting me know what I am from the Christian perspective. Very Christ-like, brother. I don't think he was calling you that, just that assuming the worst based on your experience wasn't nice. Can't we all just get along? |
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Post by Apocrypha on May 11, 2017 10:10:04 GMT -5
Thank you. I guess I'm not good at choosing the right words to get my point across. My belief is that she doesn't know how much sex means to me because she doesn't have the same feelings about it. She doesn't get the same things from it that I do and so she hasn't understood why it was important. My hope is that even if she doesn't fully understand my need, at least she will care about me enough to see it as valid and deserving of her attention. H, this is a really hard one for nearly everyone to understand at first on here, and I include myself in this. It sounds simple but it's a continent away from understanding sexual dysfunction and disconnection in a committed relationship. I'll offer this take on things - not for you, per se, but rather for the others lurking who see their own relationships in your model. People don't seek sexual intimacy out of a sense of duty. They don't seek sex because another person "deserves" to have sex. Unless they get a particular sexual rush out of seeing their partner aroused, pleased, or teased (which often ties into power play kinks and pecadilloes), they don't seek to create situations that will end in that result - unless they are attracted to that person.The kind of sustainable, long term integration of romantic, sexual expression that you seek within your intimate relationship is NOT going to come from a sense of obligation. When she has the sex she doesn't want to have with you, she is not going to suddenly remember "oh yeah! I totally forgot that I like sex!". It doesn't matter if you know the kama sutra forwards and backwards, or satisfy all her kinky threesome fantasies - she might dig those things - but you are not the source of sexual attraction to her. I'm sorry that this is such a harsh toke, because it's the worst thing to hear. You already know this. It's how you feel when she doesn't want to have sex with you. It hurts you and makes you feel inadequate, unattractive or undesirable. You say, "When you don't have sex with me, it makes me feel like XYZ". That's a reasonable and accurate response. Just as her response - which is not having sex with you - is a reasonable response to not wanting sex with you. Except, you (like me, and everyone else here) appear to assume that this is an oversight or error on her part. Like it's a big mistake. Like she forgot. I recall the magical thinking I had, knowing that I was the only person who had the technique and knowledge of my wife's body and sexual response, to do just the right things at just the right times, reading her just the right way, to MAKE her orgasm in spite of herself. Nobody else could. I recall thinking somehow that if she just had that, she would remember and want more. Bzzzzt. Of course she didn't "forget". It didn't matter how good I was, or that we were married, or that I'd hung in there and been supportive. Any argument that I "deserved" a partner who was into me sexually became her argument that I was better off with someone else (this was also biggest fear, articulated, that it would end a relationship that she valued). It's not a mistake to not have sex with someone who you aren't attracted to. It's not a mistake to feel hurt or disappointed by that - being in a situation of unrequited affection. Focusing on processes that schedule sexual activity in the absence of desire, does not recover desire. It produces resentment and disgust. Nor does it allow you to feel desired, because invariably - it will be YOU who calls attention to the sex schedule, and SHE who adapts to throw chaffe to obstruct the schedule. The dynamic remains the same. Your wife values the relationship that you have in its present form. You also value to the relationship that you have in its present form. You both value the relationship and are mutally invested in it. You stand to lose a lot by ending it. But, you also have an aspirational goal in your life to have a relationship with a person that includes sexual expression with someone you love, and that is not possible while you are committed to a celibate relationship. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on May 11, 2017 10:24:30 GMT -5
Thank you. I guess I'm not good at choosing the right words to get my point across. My belief is that she doesn't know how much sex means to me because she doesn't have the same feelings about it. She doesn't get the same things from it that I do and so she hasn't understood why it was important. My hope is that even if she doesn't fully understand my need, at least she will care about me enough to see it as valid and deserving of her attention. H, this is a really hard one for nearly everyone to understand at first on here, and I include myself in this. It sounds simple but it's a continent away from understanding sexual dysfunction and disconnection in a committed relationship. I'll offer this take on things - not for you, per se, but rather for the others lurking who see their own relationships in your model. People don't seek sexual intimacy out of a sense of duty. They don't seek sex because another person "deserves" to have sex. Unless they get a particular sexual rush out of seeing their partner aroused, pleased, or teased (which often ties into power play kinks and pecadilloes), they don't seek to create situations that will end in that result - unless they are attracted to that person.The kind of sustainable, long term integration of romantic, sexual expression that you seek within your intimate relationship is NOT going to come from a sense of obligation. When she has the sex she doesn't want to have with you, she is not going to suddenly remember "oh yeah! I totally forgot that I like sex!". It doesn't matter if you know the kama sutra forwards and backwards, or satisfy all her kinky threesome fantasies - she might dig those things - but you are not the source of sexual attraction to her. I'm sorry that this is such a harsh toke, because it's the worst thing to hear. You already know this. It's how you feel when she doesn't want to have sex with you. It hurts you and makes you feel inadequate, unattractive or undesirable. You say, "When you don't have sex with me, it makes me feel like XYZ". That's a reasonable and accurate response. Just as her response - which is not having sex with you - is a reasonable response to not wanting sex with you. Except, you (like me, and everyone else here) appear to assume that this is an oversight or error on her part. Like it's a big mistake. Like she forgot. I recall the magical thinking I had, knowing that I was the only person who had the technique and knowledge of my wife's body and sexual response, to do just the right things at just the right times, reading her just the right way, to MAKE her orgasm in spite of herself. Nobody else could. I recall thinking somehow that if she just had that, she would remember and want more. Bzzzzt. Of course she didn't "forget". It didn't matter how good I was, or that we were married, or that I'd hung in there and been supportive. Any argument that I "deserved" a partner who was into me sexually became her argument that I was better off with someone else (this was also biggest fear, articulated, that it would end a relationship that she valued). It's not a mistake to not have sex with someone who you aren't attracted to. It's not a mistake to feel hurt or disappointed by that - being in a situation of unrequited affection. Focusing on processes that schedule sexual activity in the absence of desire, does not recover desire. It produces resentment and disgust. Nor does it allow you to feel desired, because invariably - it will be YOU who calls attention to the sex schedule, and SHE who adapts to throw chaffe to obstruct the schedule. The dynamic remains the same. Your wife values the relationship that you have in its present form. You also value to the relationship that you have in its present form. You both value the relationship and are mutally invested in it. You stand to lose a lot by ending it. But, you also have an aspirational goal in your life to have a relationship with a person that includes sexual expression with someone you love, and that is not possible while you are committed to a celibate relationship. As one of the lurkers of which you speak, this was spot on. Thabk you. |
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Post by h on May 11, 2017 10:35:51 GMT -5
Apocrypha I fully admit that I may be wrong in the end. If it comes back to the point where she shows the disgust and resentment you describe, I can always change my mind later. I'm willing to give her a chance to prove me wrong though. csl had some good thoughts and I would like to try and fix things. Some people do forget and need reminding. I want to know if my W is one of those people before making a decision. Isn't it a good thing to have all the information when making life changing decisions? I'm not set in stone yet on staying or leaving but leaving is final. Staying is a choice that can be reviewed and changed.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 11, 2017 11:09:36 GMT -5
Apocrypha I fully admit that I may be wrong in the end. If it comes back to the point where she shows the disgust and resentment you describe, I can always change my mind later. I'm willing to give her a chance to prove me wrong though. csl had some good thoughts and I would like to try and fix things. Some people do forget and need reminding. I want to know if my W is one of those people before making a decision. Isn't it a good thing to have all the information when making life changing decisions? I'm not set in stone yet on staying or leaving but leaving is final. Staying is a choice that can be reviewed and changed. Yes, making a choice is your right. Nobody is going to make a different choice on here and end a marriage because some guy on the Internet told him so. That's not my goal here. My goal - for the benefit of the lurkers who are at a point where it is relevant - is to provoke the kind of thinking to assess their situation authentically, so that they can make an informed decision - whatever that decision is. For example, if a person decides to stay and work on it, like I did, I'd rather have started five years earlier working on the roots of the issue, rather than surface level bullshit like "time management", "age", "temporal proximity to menstruation or gestation" and any other endless trump cards drawn from the deck to thwart me. Who on this planet forgets that they are attracted to someone they see every day? I can see missing someone. I can see being surprisingly delighted and attracted when someone walks in the room. But I certainly don't see people forgetting that they are attracted to someone when they are in that person's presence. How is that different from not being attracted to them at all?
(noting that there is a difference between assessing someone as being attractive, and being attracted to them - as in desiring them). I guess my point is, most of us end up arriving at this point and end up poking around this level of conflict thinking it isolated from an otherwise benign relationship. Rarely is the scale of the disconnection realized at the outset, and we end up dueling Godzilla with a butter knife. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 10:55:02 GMT -5
Thank you. I guess I'm not good at choosing the right words to get my point across. My belief is that she doesn't know how much sex means to me because she doesn't have the same feelings about it. She doesn't get the same things from it that I do and so she hasn't understood why it was important. My hope is that even if she doesn't fully understand my need, at least she will care about me enough to see it as valid and deserving of her attention. H, this is the problem. When a normal person loves someone, that person's likes and dislikes become important. It is the same thing if your spouse likes Sirloin Steak. You know they like it, so you want to find someone so they will have what they like. Sex is even more basic in marriage than that. It is a normal expectation in marriage, and if one spouse is not willing to make it a priority, that spouse should not be married. I was refused on my honeymoon, and one of my nephews was as well. I have decided to tell anyone who is about to be married this: If your new spouse refuses sex on the wedding night, pack up and leave. Go to a lawyer & get an annulment or divorce as soon as possible. If your new spouse will refuse sex on the wedding night, this will NOT get better. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on May 12, 2017 12:14:01 GMT -5
Thank you. I guess I'm not good at choosing the right words to get my point across. My belief is that she doesn't know how much sex means to me because she doesn't have the same feelings about it. She doesn't get the same things from it that I do and so she hasn't understood why it was important. My hope is that even if she doesn't fully understand my need, at least she will care about me enough to see it as valid and deserving of her attention. H, this is the problem. When a normal person loves someone, that person's likes and dislikes become important. It is the same thing if your spouse likes Sirloin Steak. You know they like it, so you want to find someone so they will have what they like. Sex is even more basic in marriage than that. It is a normal expectation in marriage, and if one spouse is not willing to make it a priority, that spouse should not be married. I was refused on my honeymoon, and one of my nephews was as well. I have decided to tell anyone who is about to be married this: If your new spouse refuses sex on the wedding night, pack up and leave. Go to a lawyer & get an annulment or divorce as soon as possible. If your new spouse will refuse sex on the wedding night, this will NOT get better. Yes. This. I should have been out the door. To this day she denies that it happened. |
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Post by baza on May 13, 2017 21:03:11 GMT -5
I think that oftentimes in here, we operate on a completely wrong premise.
That premise being (that just like you) within your spouse lies a dormant wish to fuck you brilliantly 6 ways to Sunday - *if only you could find the key* for your spouse to "release the beast".
We really need to honestly examine what, if any, evidence exists to back up the premise that *secretly*, your spouse yearns to vigorously and enthusiastically fuck you.
The best confirming evidence you can get is, that your spouse IS fucking you brilliantly 6 ways to Sunday.
If that is NOT happening, then any premise based your spouse actually longing to fuck you is built on very very shaky ground.
So, the obvious question in an ILIASM shithole deal, is - "what is the evidence for that premise ?"
If there is no such evidence, then you REALLY need to challenge the premise that your spouse *secretly* wants to fuck you.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 13, 2017 21:57:40 GMT -5
I think that oftentimes in here, we operate on a completely wrong premise. We really need to honestly examine what, if any, evidence exists to back up the premise that *secretly*, your spouse yearns to vigorously and enthusiastically fuck you. The best confirming evidence you can get is, that your spouse IS fucking you brilliantly 6 ways to Sunday. I'll have a go at that, from my own experience. The premise was definitely there. When the other person throws themselves at you with everything they've got, except the actual undressing and intercourse, It's very easy to fall victim. It's not so much *secretly*, instead it's under the manipulation of " you mean that much to me, that I don't want to ruin everything else we have established , by treating each other as "only a sex instrument". So your tricked into believing that will not be a problem. In fact they are going to be eternally grateful that they have you to guide them through it, and share with them what a pleasure sex life is going to be. So the evidence that the premise is there. The confirming evidence that your spouse IS fucking you brilliantly 6 ways to Sunday Mentally, Physically, and Spiritually. Then come the cases where the spouse had sex every time they met and ended it on the wedding night. I think this covers that pretty well. shrink4men.com/2017/04/11/love-bombing-is-a-red-flag/ |
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Post by Apocrypha on May 16, 2017 16:15:13 GMT -5
I think that oftentimes in here, we operate on a completely wrong premise. That premise being (that just like you) within your spouse lies a dormant wish to fuck you brilliantly 6 ways to Sunday - *if only you could find the key* for your spouse to "release the beast". We really need to honestly examine what, if any, evidence exists to back up the premise that *secretly*, your spouse yearns to vigorously and enthusiastically fuck you. The best confirming evidence you can get is, that your spouse IS fucking you brilliantly 6 ways to Sunday. If that is NOT happening, then any premise based your spouse actually longing to fuck you is built on very very shaky ground. So, the obvious question in an ILIASM shithole deal, is - "what is the evidence for that premise ?" If there is no such evidence, then you REALLY need to challenge the premise that your spouse *secretly* wants to fuck you. I hung on so long, clinging to this false premise. |
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