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Post by Venus Erotes on May 7, 2017 11:03:37 GMT -5
There is so much wonderful advice in this thread! There are also no easy answers.
Good on you h for confronting her having a plan in place. Communication is key in all relationships, no matter what the topic. It's when we haven't had those more intimate conversations (probably a red flag right there) that makes them more difficult to approach.
I brought the subject up on a number of occasions, After years of him side stepping the subject and declining my advances, I finally realized I didn't have to leave my need for intimacy and sex behind. Like you, it's part of me and my identity.
I can't wait to hear how it goes.
Do what is best for you!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 18:19:52 GMT -5
My goal in all this is to force the issue. If she decides to try counseling then maybe we can both benefit. If she refuses to deal with her past then I will have all the justification I need for a clean exit and still be able to maintain the few relationships with my friends and family that I do have left. That is what I was looking for. If I was you, the key question is - if she refuses, is your exit plan thorough and fully thought out?
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Post by baza on May 7, 2017 18:51:57 GMT -5
Brother @teer makes the key point.
The talk has to be conducted from a position of strength and certainty. By necessity this means you have to have a clear and do-able exit strategy in your pocket ready to enact if the talk spins off out of control.
If the talk goes well, then you don't need to enact your do-able exit strategy. But believe me, if the talk goes badly - and you do not have an do-able exit strategy - you will shred your cred. And propel yourself backwards by months.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 19:07:57 GMT -5
Last night after work my W decided that she wanted to clear the air. In the long car ride out to dinner, she reiterate that she believes that love is separate from sex. A high school boyfriend was getting ready to break up with her and thought that sex would fix their relationship problems but ended up breaking it off anyway. Right off, her first experience with sex was negative so her mind is made up forever... Add to that the fact that both of her parents cheated on each other and she has a very difficult set of mental issues to deal with. She told me that she won't apologize for her beliefs and that I had no right to tell her that her beliefs were wrong. She told me again that sex is still painful for her and that she is afraid of getting UTI's for which she is prone. She made some excuses about us being on our phones all the time and that was why we were never intimate in other non-intercourse ways. She made the suggestion that the bedroom be a technology free area. She seemed open to trying more to do things other than intercourse but has said similar things before with little follow through. She will be gone to work this afternoon and evening and I plan to use that time to write a response so that she can't get me sidetracked with rebuttal in the middle. Some points I will make: She said I have no right to tell her that her beliefs are wrong. It works both ways. She blamed her past for forming her beliefs. I refuse to spend the rest of my life being punished for the mistakes of every other male in her life. I have always been faithful to her and never asked her for sex until after we were married. I demand that she go to individual counseling and that we go to a marriage counselor together to sort through all this. She blames the physical issues. I demand that she see a doctor and I want to go with her so I can hear what is said. Lastly, physical and sexual intimacy is a huge part of what makes me the man I am . By her saying that it's not important, she is saying that a huge part of ME is not important to her. It's not just rejecting sex, it's rejecting the person I am. Sex is important to me. I felt it was such a special and personal part of my identity that I made the decision to save that part of myself for the woman I was going to share the rest of my life with. Now, when I offer to share that special and personal part of myself, I am told that it is worthless and undesirable. These are my beliefs and she has no right to tell me I am wrong. If anyone here sees something I left out or something from another thread that I forgot, please let me know. You knocked it out of the park! Great job. She now can decide if she wants to hold onto her beliefs about sex, or stay married to you.
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Post by lyn on May 7, 2017 19:22:44 GMT -5
hHmmm one thing, I would give her an ultimatum. I honestly can barely believe that I'm saying this, but, these sm's need something huge to really shake the refuser if there is any chance to turn things around. Ultimatums are the worst idea normally, but, you are planning to lay your cards on the table quite clearly. What are the repercussions if your "demands" are not met? More sm? Status quo? If you don't tell her the repercussions, she can't know what they are. That being said, if you give the ultimatum with the consequences, you really have to be ready to follow through or these words - these efforts that you have made mean nothing. Personally, I don't believe a long term sexless marriage can be rehabilitated to the mutual satisfaction of BOTH parties. But, that's just my opinion. In any case, Good Luck h! I hope you find some resolution - whatever that means.
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Post by h on May 7, 2017 22:02:30 GMT -5
h Hmmm one thing, I would give her an ultimatum. I honestly can barely believe that I'm saying this, but, these sm's need something huge to really shake the refuser if there is any chance to turn things around. Ultimatums are the worst idea normally, but, you are planning to lay your cards on the table quite clearly. What are the repercussions if your "demands" are not met? More sm? Status quo? If you don't tell her the repercussions, she can't know what they are. That being said, if you give the ultimatum with the consequences, you really have to be ready to follow through or these words - these efforts that you have made mean nothing. Personally, I don't believe a long term sexless marriage can be rehabilitated to the mutual satisfaction of BOTH parties. But, that's just my opinion. In any case, Good Luck h! I hope you find some resolution - whatever that means. The first consequence would be not keeping up the facade any longer. For her, appearance is a big deal. Right now, everything looks fine to our friends and family. My own family likes her. Me going public with our issues to my family would put her in a spotlight that she wants to avoid. She has been telling everyone that we have been trying to have children for years. Big time lie since we rarely have intercourse. Even her own close friends that she talks to about everything have made comments about her not being physically intimate with me more often. If they were to find out how long this has gone on and the true state of the relationship, they would be calling her out for some outright lies she has fed them. It would run some of her oldest friendships. As of right now, neither of us have brought up divorce. She won't because she is financially dependent on me. That's why I'm not saying that word until absolutely last.
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Post by h on May 7, 2017 22:12:08 GMT -5
Brother @teer makes the key point. The talk has to be conducted from a position of strength and certainty. By necessity this means you have to have a clear and do-able exit strategy in your pocket ready to enact if the talk spins off out of control. If the talk goes well, then you don't need to enact your do-able exit strategy. But believe me, if the talk goes badly - and you do not have an do-able exit strategy - you will shred your cred. And propel yourself backwards by months. I haven't gotten that far yet but I have done some checking into our credit accounts. Although we both have access to use everything, all of them have either one of us or the other as a primary holder. It's an even split with the balances and if we did break up, she couldn't cover hers on what she makes. I could cover my half over time and eventually get past it. Her student loans would bury her though. I am definitely in a position of strength as it stands now. I don't have to worry about her taking me to the cleaners either. She's the type to just walk away if she gets in over her head. Very emotional and impulsive.
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Post by wom360 on May 7, 2017 22:18:40 GMT -5
It sounds like you're frustrated but not really willing to enforce boundaries. What will happen is your strength and credibility will diminish each time you talk without actions backing it up. That goes double for letters. On your current path it's going to get worse before it gets better. Good luck. You'll need it.
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Post by h on May 7, 2017 22:27:23 GMT -5
It sounds like you're frustrated but not really willing to enforce boundaries. What will happen is your strength and credibility will diminish each time you talk without actions backing it up. That goes double for letters. On your current path it's going to get worse before it gets better. Good luck. You'll need it. After writing it, I actually changed my mind. I still wrote it all down just to organize my thoughts but this will happen face to face. When I got done writing, it was too long. I realized she would just get angry and quit reading. I have written letters before but usually a page was enough to get my message across. The issues we have to cover will take more than that. I have to wait until we will have enough uninterrupted time to get through it all. Both our work schedules have been leaving little time in the evenings.
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Post by DryCreek on May 8, 2017 0:27:54 GMT -5
Hmmm one thing, I would give her an ultimatum. I honestly can barely believe that I'm saying this, but, these sm's need something huge to really shake the refuser if there is any chance to turn things around. Ultimatums are the worst idea normally, but, you are planning to lay your cards on the table quite clearly. What are the repercussions if your "demands" are not met? More sm? Status quo? If you don't tell her the repercussions, she can't know what they are. That being said, if you give the ultimatum with the consequences, you really have to be ready to follow through or these words - these efforts that you have made mean nothing. I think ultimatums are a catch-22... Forcing their hand is something one does to an adversary, not to someone who's supposed to be an intimate, trusted partner. Can you really depend on them in the future when you won't always have the upper hand? If you have to threaten nuclear annihilation to motivate your spouse to be intimate with you... they *really* didn't want to be intimate with you. If they change now, was it really a wake-up call? Or have they been forced to become a chameleon for the sake of survival? And how could you know? Suddenly, the tables are turned - now you're the one living a happy marriage, and they're miserable but putting up a façade. Which, as we all know, takes its toll on a person and it can't last. Until one day when *they're* the ones who press the big red button to escape. Yes, philosophically, a person deserves to know the consequences of their actions / inactions. However, in today's society it'd be disingenuous for someone to claim they didn't realize the very high probability of divorce as an outcome. The refused spouse is obliged to be exceedingly vocal that they are very unhappy, and not stew silently or vaguely. The refusing spouse owns a big piece of responsibility for closing that gap, and maybe this needs to be made painfully clear too. But chasing them down with a stick and clubbing them into submission will not yield a long-term partnership. Just my two cents, DC
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Post by McRoomMate on May 8, 2017 3:02:06 GMT -5
h Let's assume you give a brutal and credible Ultimatum and your W submits / agrees to it. Now the thorny part . . . per most statistics "Reset Sex" or "Reset intimacy" if you will . . . how long before the "default" SM situation returns? 1 month? 3 Months? Other? Here you seem to be struggling/ fighting / or how ever you describe it . . . a lot of ENERGY and focus to just get where what should be natural. Why is that? I think that is why SMs - many of them - go on and on and on . . . Cycle is something like this: a few years of frustration in SM, Spouse takes action / ultimatum, Other spouse wakes-up and good Sex/Intimacy results, time goes by (a matter of months usually) and default SM situation returns, rinse and repeat ad infinitum. This is only a mere observable trend - not an absolute truth in all cases. In any event, respect and I wish you courage and strength in this endeavor.
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Post by nolongerlonely on May 8, 2017 3:27:30 GMT -5
H reading this thread, what comes across to me is that you have an overwhelming desire to make things work,while she does not. I'm (very sadly) of the opinion that no amount of counselling arguing or discussion will change the fact that a. she does not respect you enough to consider your needs and b. if any of the 'work' produces a fix, it will probably only be a short term one. I've not been on this forum very long, but what I have learnt is that you are probably wasting your time, either in the short term, or the long term. So the action plan should be as lyn says, have an ultimatum to move towards achieving whats best for you're future. I think people who enjoy sex are givers. The refusers are takers. We probably all just need to find other givers. I hope I am wrong, and your ultimatum works. If it doesnt, we are all here for you
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Post by h on May 8, 2017 5:32:41 GMT -5
In my own circumstances, I hope that things work out. I see everyone's possible outcomes.
1. If nothing changes and it all blows up, she will probably move into the other bedroom. At that point, I can finally open up to my family and tell them the truth. Many of them have been through a divorce and would have advice and contact info for good attorneys. Financially, we are deep in debt but my income could cover my half. The sale of our house would barely break even.
2. If the changes are temporary and things slip back into the old SM then I revisit the discussion. My W easily frustrates over things that get brought up repeatedly. If it becomes clear that I will not let it go, she will have a different opinion to break the stalemate. Either one extreme or the other. As mentioned, this could be a few months after reset. I can still use this time to work on getting our finances into a better place for a clean divorce if it comes to that.
3. If she changes her behavior but she isn't feeling any different and putting on a show, it is her responsibility to speak up. If she only meets my needs to stay married and doesn't really want me then she has made her choice.
4. If she does change for real and gets the help she needs, then we will be fine. I still don't hate her. I still care about her. In either of the last 2 cases, my response would be the same. I'm still going to put my all into showing her the change was worth it. Even in the temporary case, I will have the same response until she shows me she really isn't committed to long term change.
The temporary change with a relapse is really the worst situation I have to consider. Choice 1,3,&4 are all going to be much more direct.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 8, 2017 9:24:51 GMT -5
This is not an argument that can be won through a discussion. How does a person debate this?
She has clearly indicated that she does not wish to be intimate with you. She has offered a chaffe cloud of unresolvable reasons for this that are intended to argue YOU out of the position you have taken, by showing YOU to have unreasonable expectations.
Whether she agrees to have sex with you or not, she doesn't WANT to, and is strong in that belief, so even if she complies with the behavior you have requested, you have already seen her cards. She's willing to risk your feelings, override her own libido (for now, later she may choose to exercise it with someone whom she doesn't avoid), appear unreasonable and stubborn, and risk the marriage to avoid sex with you. If she DOES have sex with you, how do you suppose she is going to do it, to ensure that her goal of discouraging you from wanting it is met? She isn't going to speak up - she would have already. It doesn't serve her purpose. The most common response to this is a temporary minor change in behavior, while subverting your victory. You two are already in the spiral - you can't unknow that she doesn't want you.
Do you think if you were to divorce in a month or even separate, that it would be the end of sex for her for the rest of her life? How fast do you think she'd have an ad up? When you want to have sex with a person, you find a way, under the riskiest and most unlikely circumstances. People do it all the time.
This thing about your "stalemate" seems to falsely equivocate your positions, except that either person can unilaterally end the marriage. There is no balance of power and you don't need to agree on your course of action (it's very unlikely that two people ever agree here at the same time). Getting her to "see your side of it" isn't going to compel her to want you in a romantic way. It might, possibly, get her to see your justification in leaving - but even then it's a long shot - AND DOESN'T CHANGE THE RESULT.
My sense in all of this is that once you come to the realization that is coalescing, and accept it, that you are really just seeking absolution. That, I understand. By being the one who is "right", you feel that you will get a social advantage.
The way this goes down, though, is that she will make up her own narrative that justifies her stance, and she will explain it in company when you aren't there. Your friends will pick, and in many cases, you might feel uncomfortable being around mutual friends, let alone discussing your intimates with them. Most bystanders look at these kinds of things like a black box of private affairs that they won't dare open. It won't change anything.
At the end of the day, no matter which way you slice it, you have a partner who actively avoids a romantic interest in you - who has told you this and reasons why. Those reasons are nothing that you can affect. She has not seen fit to do anything about them (indeed, she feels morally righteous in investing in them), and whether you are morally right or wrong will change nothing in how it all ends.
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Post by doneanddone on May 8, 2017 10:26:18 GMT -5
Last night after work my W decided that she wanted to clear the air. In the long car ride out to dinner, she reiterate that she believes that love is separate from sex. A high school boyfriend was getting ready to break up with her and thought that sex would fix their relationship problems but ended up breaking it off anyway. Right off, her first experience with sex was negative so her mind is made up forever... Add to that the fact that both of her parents cheated on each other and she has a very difficult set of mental issues to deal with. She told me that she won't apologize for her beliefs and that I had no right to tell her that her beliefs were wrong. She told me again that sex is still painful for her and that she is afraid of getting UTI's for which she is prone. She made some excuses about us being on our phones all the time and that was why we were never intimate in other non-intercourse ways. She made the suggestion that the bedroom be a technology free area. She seemed open to trying more to do things other than intercourse but has said similar things before with little follow through. She will be gone to work this afternoon and evening and I plan to use that time to write a response so that she can't get me sidetracked with rebuttal in the middle. Some points I will make: She said I have no right to tell her that her beliefs are wrong. It works both ways. She blamed her past for forming her beliefs. I refuse to spend the rest of my life being punished for the mistakes of every other male in her life. I have always been faithful to her and never asked her for sex until after we were married. I demand that she go to individual counseling and that we go to a marriage counselor together to sort through all this. She blames the physical issues. I demand that she see a doctor and I want to go with her so I can hear what is said. Lastly, physical and sexual intimacy is a huge part of what makes me the man I am . By her saying that it's not important, she is saying that a huge part of ME is not important to her. It's not just rejecting sex, it's rejecting the person I am. Sex is important to me. I felt it was such a special and personal part of my identity that I made the decision to save that part of myself for the woman I was going to share the rest of my life with. Now, when I offer to share that special and personal part of myself, I am told that it is worthless and undesirable. These are my beliefs and she has no right to tell me I am wrong. If anyone here sees something I left out or something from another thread that I forgot, please let me know. What's your end goal? Do you want to continue in this marriage? Do you want your wife to have sex with you? Do you want your wife to speak with counselors? I get that the physical and sexual intimacy is big for you but what I am not understanding is what is the outcome you are looking for? Just like most of us here, our spouse of partner has refused our initiating of intimacy or close physical contact. So, I just wanted to ask that up front.
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