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Post by greatcoastal on May 8, 2017 10:33:38 GMT -5
"At the end of the day, no matter which way you slice it, you have a partner who actively avoids a romantic interest in you - who has told you this and reasons why. Those reasons are nothing that you can affect. She has not seen fit to do anything about them (indeed she feels morally righteous in investing in them), and whether you are morally right or wrong will change nothing in how it all ends."
I would like to add on to that. Being morally right does change a lot of how it ends. I know who I'd rather be, the one who was morally right, and will press forward with my life. Compared to the one who is a controller, a taker who decides to live behind a fake mask, and live a life of falsely blaming everyone else. Playing the victim card when all along they where the deceiver. No thanks! I'd rather move forward knowing I was morally right.
Someone who actively avoids a romantic interest in you, is also actively avoiding being open, honest, truthful, and vulnerable. This spills into all other aspects of the marriage as well. She wants to do nothing about them, but you can. Leave and start over, with new circles of people. Knowing you have gained much wisdom from it. I believe ,this does give you a "social advantage". You will understand what it is to be a giver, and to now look for another giver.
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Post by csl on May 8, 2017 10:55:06 GMT -5
Brother h,
In your list of four possible outcomes, you reach four logical results. But one thing that I don't see anyone taking into consideration is the change in dynamics that your ultimatum could/would produce, and the salutary effects of the restoration of a sexlife.
Four years ago, almost to the day, a wife registered and started posting on another forum that I read. She told of how she had been a gatekeeper/refuser for nearly 20 years, but that she realized just how stinkin' she had been, how she had damaged her husband and marriage, etc., and decided that she would quit refusing cold turkey. She told her husband that she would never say "no" again. The first post that she made on that forum was her attempt to keep herself locked into her commitment and seek support from folks on that forum.
Since it had been a month since she had made that promise to her husband, she made that first post not only an announcement of her presence and her commitment, but a report of what they had experienced in that month's time, and I am pulling out three items for you to read.
It is in these three observations where the change dynamics reside, that aren't/can't be accounted for in the four options you present. This wife, to her surprise, found that frequent, joyous sex changed the dynamics of the marriage, with tension gone and laughter and enjoyment restored.
What I'm saying is that in your options, there is the possibility that changed dynamics can change attitudes.
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Post by csl on May 8, 2017 11:11:51 GMT -5
At the end of the day, no matter which way you slice it, you have a partner who actively avoids a romantic interest in you - who has told you this and reasons why. Those reasons are nothing that you can affect. She has not seen fit to do anything about them (indeed, she feels morally righteous in investing in them), and whether you are morally right or wrong will change nothing in how it all ends. But it's not the end of the day, yet, is it? Yes, at the end of TOday, you do have a partner who actively avoids you. But at the end of tomorrow? Who knows? While I am turned off by their need to monetize every insight, Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo, of One Extraordinary Marriage, do have a story and outcome that shows that what is ain't necessarily what will be. At one point, Alisa was beginning to work on her exit strategy (to use ILIASM's term); recently they celebrated their 20th anniversary and have the #1 podcast on iTunes in the Kids and Family category. I suggest listening to their very first podcast to get a glimpse of what CAN happen. |
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Post by h on May 8, 2017 12:13:15 GMT -5
Brother h, In your list of four possible outcomes, you reach four logical results. But one thing that I don't see anyone taking into consideration is the change in dynamics that your ultimatum could/would produce, and the salutary effects of the restoration of a sexlife. Four years ago, almost to the day, a wife registered and started posting on another forum that I read. She told of how she had been a gatekeeper/refuser for nearly 20 years, but that she realized just how stinkin' she had been, how she had damaged her husband and marriage, etc., and decided that she would quit refusing cold turkey. She told her husband that she would never say "no" again. The first post that she made on that forum was her attempt to keep herself locked into her commitment and seek support from folks on that forum. Since it had been a month since she had made that promise to her husband, she made that first post not only an announcement of her presence and her commitment, but a report of what they had experienced in that month's time, and I am pulling out three items for you to read. It is in these three observations where the change dynamics reside, that aren't/can't be accounted for in the four options you present. This wife, to her surprise, found that frequent, joyous sex changed the dynamics of the marriage, with tension gone and laughter and enjoyment restored. What I'm saying is that in your options, there is the possibility that changed dynamics can change attitudes. Thank you csl. Deep down I really hope that we can make it work. I don't like the idea that I may have wasted half of my admittedly short life in a hopeless failure of a relationship. I would like to see my efforts rewarded. I appreciate the positive possibility you bring to the discussion. |
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Post by csl on May 8, 2017 13:14:50 GMT -5
Thank you csl. Deep down I really hope that we can make it work. I don't like the idea that I may have wasted half of my admittedly short life in a hopeless failure of a relationship. I would like to see my efforts rewarded. I appreciate the positive possibility you bring to the discussion. Nothing is a given, Bro. h, so I cannot/will not make any promises. I have read some tell of transformations, and I've read others who tell of divorce due to intransigence. You do what you believe is right, and your wife will respond, one way or another. One of the words I see in my sphere is "generous"; it will all come down to this: is your wife good-willed enough to be generous, or not. You can't make that choice; heck, you can't even know that choice before she jumps one way or the other. But what you can do is make the choice necessary. |
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Post by baza on May 8, 2017 22:02:45 GMT -5
Quoting Brother csl here - "what you can do is make the choice necessary". That's a major truth. That is to say, *you" must do what is in your longer term best interests. That, will compel your missus to make her own choice about her own longer term best interests. Her choice will in turn put the onus for the next choice right back on you. Then your choice will put the onus for the next choice right back on her. And by this process of choice, the truth will emerge. Where the process is most likely to break down, is when one of the parties tries to duck out of their responsibility to choose. That might be her, it might just as easily be you. Failure to choose - by either party - plunges the situation back into the status quo. And if that happens, then someone has to act unilaterally to bring the situation to conclusion. In most examples in this group, that "someone" is likely to be *you* |
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Post by h on May 10, 2017 6:10:33 GMT -5
So, in the end, I gave her the letter instead. I decided to avoid the face to face confrontation because I know that when I feel strongly about something, sometimes it comes across as yelling and I didn't want to do that. To her credit though, she did read it all and actually sat down to have a discussion about it last night. Almost all of my concerns were addressed. We agreed to continue talking more on a regular basis. She agreed to move up her doctor appointment to sooner but she is nearly out of sick days at her job so summer is as soon as possible. She said no to the counseling but I agreed. My reason for wanting it wasn't based on all the facts. We discussed her beliefs and she went back to her Facebook post that sparked last week's argument. She admittedly misread the quote and interpreted it based on words she thought were there but weren't. Re-reading it led her to understand why it bothered me in the first place. The a-hole old boyfriend of her's isn't really on her mind like I thought he was. She took my response as being like his attitude because of her own misreading of her post. It's a non-issue now.
We are going to try to make it work and she promised to make more of an effort to meet my need for connecting with physical intimacy. While she doesn't feel the same need that I do, she values the relationship enough to be more accepting of me as I am. I haven't gotten so bitter yet that I can't give her a chance to prove her commitment to try. Time will tell but for now I am hopeful.
Thanks to everyone here for giving me the courage to make my feelings clear to her.
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Post by wom360 on May 10, 2017 8:19:54 GMT -5
Seen this a hundred times. Great talk. But you still didn't get laid. There will be no long term action backing the talk up.
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Post by h on May 10, 2017 9:55:01 GMT -5
Seen this a hundred times. Great talk. But you still didn't get laid. There will be no long term action backing the talk up. While it's possible you may be right about the long term, you are incorrect on one count... |
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Post by Apocrypha on May 10, 2017 10:57:24 GMT -5
While she doesn't feel the same need that I do, she values the relationship The relationship that she values is one that has no sexual expectation. She does not share your desire. |
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Post by h on May 10, 2017 12:19:42 GMT -5
While she doesn't feel the same need that I do, she values the relationship The relationship that she values is one that has no sexual expectation. She does not share your desire. The relationship is important enough to her to make my needs more of a priority. I can work with that. |
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Post by Apocrypha on May 10, 2017 13:53:17 GMT -5
The relationship that she values is one that has no sexual expectation. She does not share your desire. The relationship is important enough to her to make my needs more of a priority. I can work with that. I thought I could too. My ex-wife thought similarly. Hindsight, in weighing the best chance of success - would have had me focusing on the l-o-o-o-ng term trajectory, resulting from the direction we chose when we each said "good enough". If sex is the product of desire and your partner does not desire you, then the sex you have will be (at least on one side of it), sex with a person who doesn't desire you. My ex and I engaged in various iterations to make that work for quite some time, and managed to make things very much worse. If the sex she has with you is depletive for her, and restorative for you - what do you think the prospects will be, sexually, say, a month out? 6 months? 5 years? 15 years? As you continue to grow together and know each other across a decade, do you think she will be able to hide her disinterest or aversion from you, during the act? How do you think you will feel, knowing that, and still expecting sex from her? How do you think SHE will feel about you, and the way you feel about her, when you still want sex with her despite her disinterest being established? I'm not suggesting to you to take one direction or another... More just encouraging you to consider the consequence of directions that I didn't at the time, mainly because I considered the issue to be a recent one (at the time) and more of an event to be overcome, rather than a fundamental misalignment between us. Intent to "save the relationship" still doesn't mean desire. I don't know what does, but that doesn't mean there's not an answer to that question. |
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Post by shamwow on May 10, 2017 14:50:25 GMT -5
The relationship is important enough to her to make my needs more of a priority. I can work with that. I thought I could too. My ex-wife thought similarly. Hindsight, in weighing the best chance of success - would have had me focusing on the l-o-o-o-ng term trajectory, resulting from the direction we chose when we each said "good enough". If sex is the product of desire and your partner does not desire you, then the sex you have will be (at least on one side of it), sex with a person who doesn't desire you. My ex and I engaged in various iterations to make that work for quite some time, and managed to make things very much worse. If the sex she has with you is depletive for her, and restorative for you - what do you think the prospects will be, sexually, say, a month out? 6 months? 5 years? 15 years? As you continue to grow together and know each other across a decade, do you think she will be able to hide her disinterest or aversion from you, during the act? How do you think you will feel, knowing that, and still expecting sex from her? How do you think SHE will feel about you, and the way you feel about her, when you still want sex with her despite her disinterest being established? I'm not suggesting to you to take one direction or another... More just encouraging you to consider the consequence of directions that I didn't at the time, mainly because I considered the issue to be a recent one (at the time) and more of an event to be overcome, rather than a fundamental misalignment between us. Intent to "save the relationship" still doesn't mean desire. I don't know what does, but that doesn't mean there's not an answer to that question. Truth. I wish I would have had this advice a decade ago. |
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Post by h on May 10, 2017 15:02:11 GMT -5
The relationship is important enough to her to make my needs more of a priority. I can work with that. I thought I could too. My ex-wife thought similarly. Hindsight, in weighing the best chance of success - would have had me focusing on the l-o-o-o-ng term trajectory, resulting from the direction we chose when we each said "good enough". If sex is the product of desire and your partner does not desire you, then the sex you have will be (at least on one side of it), sex with a person who doesn't desire you. My ex and I engaged in various iterations to make that work for quite some time, and managed to make things very much worse. If the sex she has with you is depletive for her, and restorative for you - what do you think the prospects will be, sexually, say, a month out? 6 months? 5 years? 15 years? As you continue to grow together and know each other across a decade, do you think she will be able to hide her disinterest or aversion from you, during the act? How do you think you will feel, knowing that, and still expecting sex from her? How do you think SHE will feel about you, and the way you feel about her, when you still want sex with her despite her disinterest being established? I'm not suggesting to you to take one direction or another... More just encouraging you to consider the consequence of directions that I didn't at the time, mainly because I considered the issue to be a recent one (at the time) and more of an event to be overcome, rather than a fundamental misalignment between us. Intent to "save the relationship" still doesn't mean desire. I don't know what does, but that doesn't mean there's not an answer to that question. Thanks for the insights. I can say that some of your concerns don't apply though. The issue hasn't been an aversion to or distaste for sex but rather an emotional indifference towards it. She enjoys it under the right circumstances and isn't unhappy after but has always placed it lower on the priority list than I would like. Life got in the way easily and she never saw it as a big deal. The physical discomfort is also a deterrent but she has committed to finding a solution. The reason I am hopeful is that (I hope at least) she now understands that it is a big deal for me. She understands the lonely feeling even though lack of sex wouldn't cause her to feel that way. She was receptive when I compared it to her need for shared activities and time together in other ways. Of course, I won't know for sure right away, but there were enough signs to lead me to believe such. |
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Post by Apocrypha on May 10, 2017 15:39:26 GMT -5
I can say that some of your concerns don't apply though. The issue hasn't been an aversion to or distaste for sex but rather an emotional indifference towards it. She enjoys it under the right circumstances and isn't unhappy after but has always placed it lower on the priority list than I would like. Life got in the way easily and she never saw it as a big deal. Some questions. If you are in the same marriage as her, how is it that life didn't "get in the way" for you? If she is truly "indifferent" to having sex with you, why is it so important that she does NOT have sex with you, when it's been important? If marriage is a romantic/sexual union, then it is a big deal on the face of it. Are you sure it isn't just that SHE WISHES it wasn't a big deal, or that YOU wouldn't make it into a big deal? A big deal = something that she needs to account for or address. What did she imagine would be the long term result of avoiding sex with you, going forward? Aside from the actual sex itself, how do you feel about her "indifference" or antipathy towards sex with you (knowing that you can have sex with people who you don't wish to have sex with). Mrs. Apocrypha also enjoyed sex "under the right circumstances." Most of those circumstances had little to do with me. You enjoy sex with Mrs h, generally regardless or in spite of the circumstances. I'm bringing this up in this manner because it didn't dawn on me for years that I was taking Mrs. Apocrypha at her word (whichever reason she had to offer at the time) and holding her to a completely different standard than myself. As in, she would say things like "life got in the way" or she was "too busy or tired" etc, and then I would look at that as my problem to solve. But it took a long time for me to realize that I was also busy, that I had the same or a similar "life", chores, kids, responsibilities etc. And that I still wanted sex with my partner as a joy and benefit - something to make it all worthwhile. Took a long time for me to see that she saw it as another chore or responsibility.Worth considering that as you move forward with a plan to have sex t hat she does not desire to have, and that she places as a priority lower than, say - whatever takes priority at your house. |
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