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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 25, 2017 15:15:19 GMT -5
all of the above seems like flogging a dead horse to me. That's my whole point. I'm not suggesting this as a course of action. I saying that the "at least I tried everything" is not a productive strategy. When considering options and accommodations, it's perhaps useful to consider it in terms of what you might be prepared to lose, like a gambling wager. So, how would one feel if they embarked on some path and it still didn't work out? |
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Post by WindSister on Apr 25, 2017 15:22:38 GMT -5
After a time, I came to realize simple wisdom. If a person's behavior and words seem confusing over time, sometimes the best way to make sense is to look at the result of their actions. Maybe THAT is their true intent. YES. That. 100%. Actions - That's where it's at (the truth, that is). When someone shows you their true colors, don't try to recolor them - believe what they show. |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 25, 2017 16:27:22 GMT -5
all of the above seems like flogging a dead horse to me. That's my whole point. I'm not suggesting this as a course of action. I saying that the "at least I tried everything" is not a productive strategy. When considering options and accommodations, it's perhaps useful to consider it in terms of what you might be prepared to lose, like a gambling wager. So, how would one feel if they embarked on some path and it still didn't work out? I see. I guess then it's a matter of weighing up if there really is anything of value to lose. But given everything that you DID do, from my perspective I know that I personally would be saying that at least I tried everything and your response goes to show that with each of us there really are so many aspects and approaches and responses to every situation. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 8:09:27 GMT -5
With your "Second Relationship" (I liked the way you put that very much - it is something new and different not restoring, the old one is gone, it is the new 2nd version at least), If I may ask did you and Mrs. Apocrypha succeed in intimacy and sex on a regular basis? Call me nuts but I think WE can do this and I have 100% the intention to do it and the will power and the feelings - well, I think the love will grow organically from the neglected roots that God willing will stir again from the almost daily sex and every day intimacy (holding her every night, sleeping naked, holding hands, morning kisses, lots of cuddling, etc.) For quite a time, while we ran Marriage 2.0, we had more regular sex. Eventually I had one of those M. Night Shymalan endings where I realized the whole endeavor was something else playing out entirely. @mcroommate, as I understand it, you have ALWAYS had 100% the intention, feelings, and willpower to do this - this being have a sexually intimate relationship with your partner. Of the two of you, was that really at issue? What's different in the facts on the ground? In my case, we had these things in our relationship: - lots of celibacy - periods of "duty sex" - eventually she used to put her arm, and later a pillow over her own head - her affair -removal of wedding rings - family counselling - for years - more celibacy - months (posed as "no pressure") - holding her every night, sleeping naked, holding hands, morning kisses, lots of cuddling (posed as "non-sexual intimacy at first, but later weaponized so that the expressed desire for this was code for "I don't want intercourse with you") - eventual celibacy again, though otherwise a communicative and amicable relationship. - sleeping in separate beds -hot/cold wavering - I tried my wedding ring again and got a hostile reaction to it. - a save the marriage Vegas weekend extravaganza - celibacy Here is where I pulled the plug. Within two weeks of that, she proposed Marriage 2.0 - open relationship, open a crack. - her original pitch was that it was open just on her side. I countered that both sides be open. She needed to fully grasp the cost of what she was asking. - this is where we both went through A LOT of difficulty, but where we also restored sexual relations with each other to a large extent - Over the course of 3 years, she repeatedly and constantly went out of our agreed bounds, causing enormous hardship, and I consistently fell to further fallback positions. - eventually she and I were celibate again - we did another save the marriage vacation - this one did not save it. - we tried therapy again, different counselor. This one discounted and disrespected me and the role of sexual intimacy for me as a route to ingratiating herself to my spouse - I ended that, and within a few weeks ended the marriage. Good Lord, You and W seemed to go to a massive effort over a decade of such painful scenarios. I will give this retry 6 months maximum - depending on how it goes. If my W proposed "open marriage" I would end it immediately. Both W and I agree we need to fix our couple and the SM scenario seems to have emerged because everything else got in the way of our couple (Work, Children, etc.). We neglected our couple. Both my W and I have libidos (mine is more frequent than hers), I told her sex probably every day (21 times per month average). Again, RESPECT to the massive effort you and Mrs. Apocrypha did - and mainly you to keep your couple (marriage) going. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 8:12:13 GMT -5
If nothing else is to be taken from this it's that you tried( the ultimate understatement). You were left with no other direction other than to walk away. Exactly - Tried until exhausted. Apocrypha should get the ILIASM "Medal of Honor" for going above and beyond in those massive long term and what seems very painful efforts over many years. Wow. Just Wow. Even my W said this next time is the LAST time / last chance. We are scheduled to get back together on Saturday. So far we are kissing and making-out but I am not allowed back in the house due to my instability on changing my mind and re-traumatizing the children (She has a valid point). |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 8:17:17 GMT -5
Thank-you Apocrypha Very much appreciate the sharing of your story. With your "Second Relationship" (I liked the way you put that very much - it is something new and different not restoring, the old one is gone, it is the new 2nd version at least), If I may ask did you and Mrs. Apocrypha succeed in intimacy and sex on a regular basis? Call me nuts but I think WE can do this and I have 100% the intention to do it and the will power and the feelings - well, I think the love will grow organically from the neglected roots that God willing will stir again from the almost daily sex and every day intimacy (holding her every night, sleeping naked, holding hands, morning kisses, lots of cuddling, etc.) What you're contemplating here is not true intimacy. You're trying to get sex, which is a byproduct of intimacy (sometimes). It's clear from your posts that you really have no idea what intimacy is. Again, I urge you to confess your affair to your wife. Stop being a coward. Give her the choice to reconcile with her eyes wide open. It's your only chance for true intimacy with your wife. Don't ask me how I know this. Your fellow coward, WOM360 My psychiatrist friend told me NOT to confess the affair to my W. Why should I confess this? I believe it will destroy any chance of reconciling possibly - because she will start probing possibly and then it will be Hell with the lid off. I won't ask you how you know this as you stated - but I would need some more convincing. Why confess the affair? I am all ears. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 9:02:27 GMT -5
I think you ought to keep your own place & get into individual counseling. A midlife crisis is a lot like any other growth spurt: painful, needed, healthy, leading to deeper authenticity if done right. YOU need some clarity, brother. I don't see that coming from W, who has (understandably) her own agenda & motivations. I'm a bit appalled at the way you wrote off your paramour - previously described in such wildly romantic "I know she's the one" language - in multiple posts over months now. Your heart is like a ping-pong ball, bouncing all over the place. No one outside of you is capable of telling you what is right for you. A therapist (if they're good) can help YOU decide what you want, what your heart needs, what your truth is. I wouldn't recommend looking to W for that. I wouldn't recommend "caving" just because of parental pressure. Yeah, the kids will cry - on the inside, & often on the outside. This back & forth seems more hurtful than helpful. This is just my opinion. Your choices are, obviously, up to you. But I really think you need a trusted sounding board to help you clarify, for yourself, what you are feeling & thinking & how YOU wish to proceed. Good luck with the whole enterprise, Thank-you for the specific points - I will keep the apartment - rent will be paid for next month and I have to find new tenants anyway. Therapist also a very good idea. |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 26, 2017 10:05:23 GMT -5
What you're contemplating here is not true intimacy. You're trying to get sex, which is a byproduct of intimacy (sometimes). It's clear from your posts that you really have no idea what intimacy is. Again, I urge you to confess your affair to your wife. Stop being a coward. Give her the choice to reconcile with her eyes wide open. It's your only chance for true intimacy with your wife. Don't ask me how I know this. Your fellow coward, WOM360 My psychiatrist friend told me NOT to confess the affair to my W. Why should I confess this? I believe it will destroy any chance of reconciling possibly - because she will start probing possibly and then it will be Hell with the lid off. I won't ask you how you know this as you stated - but I would need some more convincing. Why confess the affair? I am all ears. Sounds like he's been there and worn the tee shirt. Is there any chance that the lady you walked away from could contact your wife? What if she ever asks you? She will know by your eyes. My H has a mannerism when he lies. I've never told him what it is. It's subconscious on his part. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 10:29:14 GMT -5
wom360 My psychiatrist friend told me NOT to confess the affair to my W. Why should I confess this? I believe it will destroy any chance of reconciling possibly - because she will start probing possibly and then it will be Hell with the lid off. I won't ask you how you know this as you stated - but I would need some more convincing. Why confess the affair? I am all ears. Sounds like he's been there and worn the tee shirt. Is there any chance that the lady you walked away from could contact your wife? What if she ever asks you? She will know by your eyes. My H has a mannerism when he lies. I've never told him what it is. It's subconscious on his part. Minimal chance the two would ever meet face-to-face or hear of each other. Any how, if my W found out about I would almost be relieved. If she asked Oh yes - for something this big - I am a horrible liar - I would probably remain silent or evasive and possibly just say Yes - if it came to a direct confrontation I would have not hide it. Still she does not ask this at all. Really weird frankly. She has not asked about it and I just moved out and we agreed we should separate. My W's focus was if I still loved her or not. She probably knows or suspects but does not care or too afraid to ask. I think it is obvious really - If a 40s man is having a mid-life crisis (at least perceived as such) - what is the most common occurrence? It almost always involves another lady right? My W said "I ticked all the boxes" well she is very smart - very intelligent. I think she does not ask but the silence of her never asking this kind of question is deafening indeed. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 26, 2017 11:29:38 GMT -5
Dude, the term "mid-life crisis" is a neat little package that allows you to step outside of and diminish the importance of real-life relationship dysfunction, like it is some kind of flu you caught, or a life stage akin to puberty. Stop calling it that.
You don't wish to take an oath of celibacy for the rest of your life? That's what's being asked of you, and you are now being painted as "unstable" for not signing up for that. You think there might be significance in your wife overriding her libido to avoid sex with you - that this is just some kind of stage that you alone are going through, irrespective of your wife's feelings toward you?
Come on.
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Post by lyn on Apr 26, 2017 11:33:58 GMT -5
Don't tell her McRoomMate. Just no point in it. However, if you end up continuing this with your AP, or find another while "working on the couple", just stop with the marriage relationship. Nothing authentic will come from it - just prolonged B.S. Best of luck! |
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 26, 2017 11:34:01 GMT -5
I forgot to ad a year and a half of biweekly date nights, both before and during the open relationship thing. The neighbors seeing us walking out every weekend thought we were the most romantic couple on the block, and some quarreled that THEY didn't put as much effort in as we did for each other. Still didn't change her avoidance of me in the long run. Hard to be married to a single woman. At some point if comes down to, "Do you really want to be married to me?" I do want to say, that I wish you the best of luck. We all have to go through our process. I went through mine, and yours will arrive at a conclusion eventually as well. I wish you the best in that journey as you work it through. |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Apr 26, 2017 11:37:24 GMT -5
Dude, the term "mid-life crisis" is a neat little package that allows you to step outside of and diminish the importance of real-life relationship dysfunction, like it is some kind of flu you caught, or a life stage akin to puberty. Stop calling it that. You don't wish to take an oath of celibacy for the rest of your life? That's what's being asked of you, and you are now being painted as "unstable" for not signing up for that. You think there might be significance in your wife overriding her libido to avoid sex with you - that this is just some kind of stage that you alone are going through, irrespective of your wife's feelings toward you? Come on. Is it her libido or his behaviour? He said himself that they don't fit the typical SM mould. I'm sensing lack of trust from his wife in his ability to follow things through, plus he mentions his toxic habits( which could indeed be as a result of his SM) I think with McRoommate's case it would be beneficial to hear her side. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 12:15:32 GMT -5
Dude, the term "mid-life crisis" is a neat little package that allows you to step outside of and diminish the importance of real-life relationship dysfunction, like it is some kind of flu you caught, or a life stage akin to puberty. Stop calling it that. You don't wish to take an oath of celibacy for the rest of your life? That's what's being asked of you, and you are now being painted as "unstable" for not signing up for that. You think there might be significance in your wife overriding her libido to avoid sex with you - that this is just some kind of stage that you alone are going through, irrespective of your wife's feelings toward you? Come on. Is it her libido or his behaviour? He said himself that they don't fit the typical SM mould. I'm sensing lack of trust from his wife in his ability to follow things through, plus he mentions his toxic habits( which could indeed be as a result of his SM) I think with McRoommate's case it would be beneficial to hear her side. My W and I were so SM that I cannot really tell you with any clarity who is the Refuser because neither of us were asking. We have been kissing and holding each other outside our house at night like a high school couple hoping we do not get caught. Who is the "Innocent" one - W or Me`? Who is the "guilty" one? Who has white hat and who has black hat? Hmm, I don't freaking know . . . Right now it seems my W really still loves me but I am the one with doubts. Maybe I am the "Refuser" and in some Alice in Wonderland twist of self deception I blame the SM on her, after all I was outsourcing massively and it was me that fell in love with a new lady 5 months ago. This is not really known . . . I vaguely remember her laying there exhausted or at least not enjoying it about 12 years ago when I was insisting on daily sex and then lost patience really fast and started outsourcing - maybe that "vague memory" is really the heart and beginning of the SM . . . it very well could be. Now the key is go through the PROCESS (as you rightly say Apocrypha each his own process - oh Lord have mercy) - I am giving us 6 months maximum. I promised myself I would "make efforts" and have "willingness" to give Our Couple one last chance starting Saturday it seems. Clock ticking or will it be from here to eternity? Only the Lord knows now. seabr33z3 Yes - I am trying to be objective as possible - there are no innocent parties - she seems to have a lower libido in general than me but she does have one. As I said so long an SM that it is difficult at this point on who is the Refuser because neither of us really bothered asking for many years. Well on the rare occasion we would have sex and I would bother asking - she would not refuse - but not until after I threatened divorce a few months ago did she ever initiate. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Apr 26, 2017 12:18:16 GMT -5
Apocrypha Yes as others also have pointed out - not so simple to package this whole thing as a "mid life crisis" . . . Well and duly noted.
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