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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 18:29:35 GMT -5
Well, they can be aimed at spouses, if it's manipulation or control. But if it's illness or menopause or hormonal or whatever, it's just not aimed at anyone. It just is. I only want to interject this concept: If the spouse not wanting sex has an illness, menopause (early, medically induced, or natural), hormone issues, etc., yet doesn't seek any and all potential treatments for their lack of desire and/or libido leaving no stone unturned, isn't that a "breach" of the marital contract? Whether the "un-well" person WANTS sex or not should be irrelevant imho, IF this person wants to truly uphold and honor their marital vows and all that is implied when making this pledge and taking these vows. Sure, in sickness and in health is common to most vows, however, isn't the onus on the "sick" spouse to do everything humanly possible to uphold the rest of the vows which will surely crumble if sex is taken off the table? Otherwise, one would seem to "pick and choose" which sections of their marital vows they will honor based on what they do or don't want. There are a lot of remedies for a lot of maladies that do not cause further illness - sometimes one just needs to look in different places (natural & holistic medicine comes to mind) - if one thing doesn't help, keep looking, And yes, there is an argument to be made for the "sick" spouse - like, "Shouldn't the 'healthy' spouse honor the 'in sickness and in health' bit? Sure, that's reasonable, but, it seems to be reasonable only if the "sick" spouse has literally tried everything and the 'healthy' spouse is OK with the amended marital contract. Thank you, lyn. I need to hear stuff like this. I *still* feel guilty that I just couldn't hold on any longer, when my ex spoke of health problems but then would not make a serious effort to solve them. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 20, 2017 19:11:29 GMT -5
Call them out on their lies and watch the DARVO. You really can't. Try telling your wife she doesn't really have painful sex. My solution was to come to my own conclusion and make her an STBX. You are certainly correct. I remember my W being to tired. But offer to comb her hair, rub her back, massage her feet, that she's awake for, with zero return. My w. never played the pain card, only during insertion, all the rest was enjoyable. She seemed to want to deny it but couldn't, until it was over. Then it was, "see ya next year, back down to zero." There are things you can call them out on. Turning on the tv, bringing there book, or computer into the bed, going to bed early, going to bed late, talking on the phone etc... Then comes my favorite, an hour later when her daddy calls out her name.(this has ocured multiple times) She was not asleep, she jumps to her feet and goes running to check on him, spending hours with him, taking to him to the hospital, making phone calls, getting his things ready etc... Too tired,? yea!! |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 19:54:53 GMT -5
You and I both had a problem starting at the wedding. I know you don't believe asexuality can coexist with sexual behavior. I no longer have that problem because I read about too many self identified asexuals that acknowledge using sex to manipulate sexuals into relationships. Yes, beachguy , there are certainly people like that. I'm going to cede the point that there may well be aesexuals who bang the hell out of their partners. I'll cop to going on about "sexual anorexia" a lot in the old days, and going like Sherlock into figuring how her issues with control might also relate to her eating disorder. I'll go one farther and say that borderline personality disordered people are notorious for using sex to manipulate people into hanging around. I could take it farther and imagine some derpy video or a Chatelaine article authored by some 20-something "content creator" who parses out 10 different kinds of aesexuals who f$ck the hell out their partners. There may be people with some disorder of sexuality, or sexual identity if you sit in that camp. "Aesexuality", demisexuals, I often get approached by the sapiosexuals, and maybe there's some other behavior of people who don't have sex with their partners, and I'll call it "zerlingturmbowitz". No matter what I call the behavior of avoiding sex with me, or what her reasons are, I still end up with a person who doesn't want to have sex with me. The diagnosis "aesexual who has sex" is still an autopsy, because I don't have a sexual relationship with that person. My relationship with her is not a sexual one, irrespective of the causes of the habit, or of the behavior or lack thereof with other people. The effect of her banging her paramour 6 ways to Sunday while we're still "together", or chasing me around the bedroom a decade ago before I got married, or putting out craigslist ads for sex the day after we agree to separate - doesn't change the fact that she doesn't want to bang me. Any way you slice that pie, that's the berry I'm going to get. I think the better question is really more aimed at "what is the nature of my nonsexual relationship"? |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 20:03:07 GMT -5
Well, they can be aimed at spouses, if it's manipulation or control. But if it's illness or menopause or hormonal or whatever, it's just not aimed at anyone. It just is. I only want to interject this concept: If the spouse not wanting sex has an illness, menopause (early, medically induced, or natural), hormone issues, etc., yet doesn't seek any and all potential treatments for their lack of desire and/or libido leaving no stone unturned, isn't that a "breach" of the marital contract? Nobody wants to have sex because of a contract or obligation. YOU don't want sex that comes from obligation. You want sex with a partner who wants you. This discussion about contracts and obligation completely steps around the core issue. What is the nature of a close, non-sexual unrequited relationship? |
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Post by baza on Jan 20, 2017 20:14:13 GMT -5
Take this out a stage further.
The avoidant spouse has an airtight, watertight, ace in the hole, incontrovertible, inarguable, absolutely genuine bonafide, sworn on the bible, fully notarised reason for not engaging you sexually.
What fucking difference does that essentially make ?
The refused spouse is just as disenfranchised as ever they were.
The choices of the disenfranchised spouse do not change.
They remain exactly the same as they would be if the avoidants reason is complete bullshit.
Addendum (I have used a couple of members names here - NOT to take a cheap shot at them, but to make a point)
I think it is Brother obofla who has a certifiably mentally ill spouse.
Sister darktippedrose on the other hand seems to have a spouse who is just a cunt.
Their respective options are identical - as they are for all disenfranchised spouse.
Stay.
Cheat.
Leave.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 20, 2017 20:26:20 GMT -5
I only want to interject this concept: If the spouse not wanting sex has an illness, menopause (early, medically induced, or natural), hormone issues, etc., yet doesn't seek any and all potential treatments for their lack of desire and/or libido leaving no stone unturned, isn't that a "breach" of the marital contract? Nobody wants to have sex because of a contract or obligation. YOU don't want sex that comes from obligation. You want sex with a partner who wants you. This discussion about contracts and obligation completely steps around the core issue. What is the nature of a close, non-sexual unrequited relationship? This has merit! The marriage contract comes with a highly valued, highly sought after, "trust factor". This "trust factor" involves respect, obedience, boundaries, control, and submission, I could keep going. All parts of a working relationship. I can't speak for everyone, I can assume most spent a year, or two getting to know each other, and building up the "trust factor" covering all aspects that come with a marriage- including intimacy and sex. These are things that are part of our society, heritage, upbringing, and get ingrained in our core being. Not something you can easily just push aside. So, what I mean is I want to have sex because of a contract, or obligation, ALONG with my desire. Don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. Then again, maybe not. Intimacy and sex can easily be taken as a given. How many of us were taught about a SM? or all these other asexual behaviors? We were advised about roles, finances, trust, job security, children, family, housing, etc.... It's easy to find all these other things as a new and upcoming challenge. Sex and intimacy? egh.... not so much. Boy was I wrong!!! |
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Post by Lithium92 on Jan 21, 2017 5:10:23 GMT -5
My wife has tried, in good faith, many medical approaches. For years. None has worked, and libido-nuking is a common and recognised effect of both chronic pain and menopause with no real medical solution. Not in everyone, hence the people who say 'well it didn't stop me', but in a high proportion of cases (from my research, about a quarter to a third of women's libidos are hit by menopause, and chronic pain seriously affects a good majority of libidos). Telling someone in those circumstances they're putting it on and using it as an excuse, especially when it doesn't fit with the rest of their behaviour in the relationship is just vile.
So then as a partner you're left with what to do about it. I don't think saying 'yeah I know you have a chronic degenerative autoimmune disease but you're not putting out, so kthxbi' is the moral response.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 15:33:04 GMT -5
telecaster,
I understand your situation is different than mine. My wife is going through menopause right now but it does not mean I have to suffer. I take care of my health and do those things that are going to make me an easier person to deal with.
My wife told me the other day her libido was very low that day. We still had sex that day and once she started she was into it. Sometimes, you just have to start having sex even if you do not feel like it. My wife is finding this out. I don't feel like doing some things for my wife but I still do them. I should say that I do them happily because I want to make her happy.
Maybe you are fine with lack of sex. I'm not. If I had some condition where I could not take care of my wife, I would encourage her to find someone to meet those needs. It's quite selfish of the refusing partner to deny their partner's sexual needs. If they can not meet them, then they should encourage them to find someone else who will.
What works for my relationship might not work for you. I wish you well in your relationship with your wife.
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Post by csl on Jan 22, 2017 15:41:46 GMT -5
Your wife demo'ed the classic 'desire follows arousal' pattern, great!
As to being in a condition to not take care of your wife? The late Christopher Reeve, a quadriplegic, while not going into details, hinted that he and his wife still found a way for intimacy. You've pretty much got to be in a coma to not be able to do something, if you're willing.
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Post by lostsomething on Jan 22, 2017 18:01:15 GMT -5
My husband is a passive aggressive so his refusal was his control over me because I had a high libido and I needed physical attention to feel safe. Now that I've moved away from that need for the time being, he's getting more desperate as I refuse him doing ANYTHING for me. He's getting nervous by my discovered non-dependence as I see him struggle to ask simple questions about things like what food we want to eat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 20:31:38 GMT -5
My husband is a passive aggressive so his refusal was his control over me because I had a high libido and I needed physical attention to feel safe. Now that I've moved away from that need for the time being, he's getting more desperate as I refuse him doing ANYTHING for me. He's getting nervous by my discovered non-dependence as I see him struggle to ask simple questions about things like what food we want to eat. Isn't it interesting how things change when we start to loose our unhealthy dependance on our spouses. The day I stopped begging and pleading was when the chains came off. My wife took notice and your husband is taking notice now. There has been a major turn around in my marriage. It's taken months now and I'm still not a 100% sure I want to stay. Right now I'm just working on myself and becoming a detached observer to my relationship. I'm treating my wife like a good husband should, but still observing her actions but not putting emotion on them. Walk with your head held high and demand respect from your husband. Now is the time to start taking care of yourself emotionally and physically. He'll really begin to sweat. You'll grow more strong and want care what he thinks. There are plenty of men who would appreciate a wife who wants an intimate sexual relationship. |
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Post by lostsomething on Jan 23, 2017 0:32:46 GMT -5
. "Now is the time to start taking care of yourself emotionally and physically." I couldn't agree more which is why I joined a Dave Ramsey class tonight to get my bills paid on his dime. Then when I start feeling better, I'll go back to work and start saving for my escape. I've spent 8 years in this mess and I have no hope that it's going to change. Any changes he makes will be temporary to quiet my anger. There's another kink in my situation; my husband attaches himself emotionally to other women and then creates drama in our marriage. He has yet to have an affair but leaves the option open for himself should he become too uncomfortable. Luckily for me, the universe has been in my favor and I find out long before it becomes something more. He quit his job in November because he started an inappropriate emotional affair with his manager at work and I found out by accident; or was it. I'm surprised how your able to be that loving husband even though your needs aren't being met. Kudos to you. I can't pretend anymore. I want to stay mad in a healthy way so I can get to the other side of this. We deserve to be loved and to have our hierarchy of needs met to the fullest. This is some BS. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 23, 2017 9:15:51 GMT -5
You really can't. Try telling your wife she doesn't really have painful sex. My solution was to come to my own conclusion and make her an STBX. You are certainly correct. I remember my W being to tired. But offer to comb her hair, rub her back, massage her feet, that she's awake for, with zero return. My w. never played the pain card, only during insertion, all the rest was enjoyable. She seemed to want to deny it but couldn't, until it was over. Then it was, "see ya next year, back down to zero." There are things you can call them out on. Turning on the tv, bringing there book, or computer into the bed, going to bed early, going to bed late, talking on the phone etc... Then comes my favorite, an hour later when her daddy calls out her name.(this has ocured multiple times) She was not asleep, she jumps to her feet and goes running to check on him, spending hours with him, taking to him to the hospital, making phone calls, getting his things ready etc... Too tired,? yea!! This sounds ridiculous and awful. Amazing how there are some people whose selfishness and seems boundless, isn't it? |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 23, 2017 9:18:16 GMT -5
My husband is a passive aggressive so his refusal was his control over me because I had a high libido and I needed physical attention to feel safe. Now that I've moved away from that need for the time being, he's getting more desperate as I refuse him doing ANYTHING for me. He's getting nervous by my discovered non-dependence as I see him struggle to ask simple questions about things like what food we want to eat. Isn't it interesting how things change when we start to loose our unhealthy dependance on our spouses. The day I stopped begging and pleading was when the chains came off. My wife took notice and your husband is taking notice now. There has been a major turn around in my marriage. It's taken months now and I'm still not a 100% sure I want to stay. Right now I'm just working on myself and becoming a detached observer to my relationship. I'm treating my wife like a good husband should, but still observing her actions but not putting emotion on them. Walk with your head held high and demand respect from your husband. Now is the time to start taking care of yourself emotionally and physically. He'll really begin to sweat. You'll grow more strong and want care what he thinks. There are plenty of men who would appreciate a wife who wants an intimate sexual relationship. This is good advice for others of us (well, me at least) as well. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 23, 2017 11:01:09 GMT -5
I guess the lack of ANY drive would be rock bottom; right? Then the rest is on a spectrum. I'm just thinking if you (not you personally) want society to believe you're normal. Ok. I do. I think your libido is perfectly normal. You're not strange or abnormal. You and your partner happily have sex three days a week. But your neighbor thinks YOU'RE abnormal because he and his partner have sex 6 days a week. Who's correct? Who gets to set the bar? There is no line. You avoided my question, and I know why you did. Instead you reply with a rather absurd and extreme hypothetical about how many times per week is normal. Whan ALL the discussion here is about how many times, if any, per year, that can be counted on fingers. And you well know that. So bitter. It's good to know that you have the ability to know what I'm thinking. That's a unique talent. Here you go. Definition of LACK of libido: No libido. As in lack of money = no money. Lack of empathy = no empathy. Low/lower libido: Sexual urge once a month, twice a month, three times a month, four times a month, five times a month, six times a month... Depends on what any individual's idea of low/lower libido is, I guess? To a partner who wants sex 30 times a month, but their partner only wants sex twice a month, partner #1 would consider partner #2's libido low. (Since you're counting on fingers, that would be two fingers) |
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