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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 20, 2017 14:50:05 GMT -5
Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm? I believe lack of ANY sex drive is a deviation from the norm. Do you believe Low/lower sex drive is a "deviation" from the norm? I don't believe anyone should be criticized by anyone, especially a spouse, because they want sex. Honestly, you don't have to educate me that wanting sex is perfectly natural and normal. But low/lower libido is perfectly natural as well. (I'm not speaking about low libido due to physical or emotional factors) YOUR sex drive may seem "normal" to you. But it may seem low to your next-door neighbor. It may seem high to the neighbor on the other side of you. I fully agree that neither spouse should withhold sex out of spite, manipulation, or control; and that healthy relationships will be able to find a compromise solution. You and others here strive to make others hear and accept that people who want sex - want as much sex as they want - is normal, and are not to be criticized. I agree with that. But can you agree that a person who has a lower libido than you is normal, and not to be criticized? I mean, if not, then who gets to set the bar for "normal?" Please know that I'm not criticizing you or anyone here for wanting sex. And if a spouse is withholding maliciously, then I would agree that it could be considered abuse. I just get a little prickly when a person with a low/lower libido, is described as "not normal." Just as you would be, if someone were to describe you as deviant, or "not normal" because you want more sex. Low or lower can be acceptable. I agree with you. Marriage is about compromise. Honestly if my H would have had sex with me once a month for ten minutes I would not have known any better. I would have felt loved. That would have been a compromise to keep us both happy but he only cared about his own happiness. He knew I liked sex but in 12 years we had sex 14 times. So I think it boils down to communication and compatibility, as well as ultimately what we each want for our own lives individually. Divorce isn't the end of the world. I'm still friends with my ex and we talk on the phone about sports. I do still love him, I'm just not in love with him. I'm not sure if I'll ever meet someone and have a ltr with romantic love but at least I have a chance now and I can have sex when I want without sneaking around, I didn't really like that. Hey bballgirl! Pardon if i go off on the side here a bit. Maybe better for another thread? Will see. Marriage is about compromise. I read, and hear that a lot. That's a pretty broad statement. Right away I think about the red flags when it comes to compromising with a controller. How they can take advantage of you. Some of us compromise a whole lot, others barely give an inch, then the whole thing is considered a compromise? Then there's the question, "why do you have to compromise?" An example. $400,000. is the marked price. As is. No bartering, bargaining, dealing,, that is the price. Take it or leave it. The deal is made and both parties are satisfied. You can also start upping the price the more they try to lower it. Like setting boundaries. There has to be an agreement. Then their has to be an agreement and an understanding of the consequences when those boundaries are broken.Then comes stronger boundaries, and stronger consequences. If this has no effect, either the consequences are wrong or it's time to retreat. Here's were I may be totally wrong, your example of ten minutes. Suppose those ten minutes are him burying his head under the pillow, staying completely dressed, you have to unzip his pants remove his penis get on top of him and have sex. No communication, no touching. You have to clean him, zip his pants, and then wait a month. (might as well have a dildo) You and I both know that you would have known better, and would not do that again. Your self worth would be lower than a snake full of buckshot! What if he just called it, "his low libido?" and that you need to compromise? This is were communication, and boundaries come in, not compromise. This IS the marked price, take it or leave it, or the price goes up, and there are plenty of other buyers out there. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 20, 2017 15:02:40 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between lack of drive and low/lower drive. Where is the low end of low? I guess the lack of ANY drive would be rock bottom; right? Then the rest is on a spectrum. I'm just thinking if you (not you personally) want society to believe you're normal. Ok. I do. I think your libido is perfectly normal. You're not strange or abnormal. You and your partner happily have sex three days a week. But your neighbor thinks YOU'RE abnormal because he and his partner have sex 6 days a week. Who's correct? Who gets to set the bar? There is no line. [ Since we are talking about normal and abnormal - I can only say having sex less than ten times a year with one's spouse is not normal. I did outsource at the end of my marriage and I was careful to be discreet but I did not care if I was caught. Celibacy in marriage is not normal. We didn't even sleep in the same bed, that's not normal either. Honestly it wasn't a marriage. We were roommates and roommates don't usually have romantic relationships. So it's not even about frequency of sex which I think is the focus here and probably shouldn't be. The focus should be on the quality of the relationship, all of the things you do together kissing, hugging, holding hands, a massage, dining out, watching a program together, cooking together, a small gift, a love note, etc. those are the things that make you want to have sex with each other. Forgetting your wife's birthday is not normal. I'm a believer in quality vs quantity and I will never settle again. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 20, 2017 15:26:39 GMT -5
Low or lower can be acceptable. I agree with you. Marriage is about compromise. Honestly if my H would have had sex with me once a month for ten minutes I would not have known any better. I would have felt loved. That would have been a compromise to keep us both happy but he only cared about his own happiness. He knew I liked sex but in 12 years we had sex 14 times. So I think it boils down to communication and compatibility, as well as ultimately what we each want for our own lives individually. Divorce isn't the end of the world. I'm still friends with my ex and we talk on the phone about sports. I do still love him, I'm just not in love with him. I'm not sure if I'll ever meet someone and have a ltr with romantic love but at least I have a chance now and I can have sex when I want without sneaking around, I didn't really like that. Hey bballgirl! Pardon if i go off on the side hear a bit. Maybe better for another thread? Will see. Marriage is about compromise. I read, and hear that a lot. That's a pretty broad statement. Right away I think about the red flags when it comes to compromising with a controller. How they can take advantage of you. Some of us compromise a whole lot, others barely give an inch, then the whole thing is considered a compromise? Then there's the question, "why do you have to compromise?" An example. $400,000. is the marked price. As is. No bartering, bargaining, dealing,, that is the price. Take it or leave it. The deal is made and both parties are satisfied. You can also start upping the price the more they try to lower it. Like setting boundaries. There has to be an agreement. Then their has to be an agreement and an understanding of the consequences when those boundaries are broken.Then comes stronger boundaries, and stronger consequences. If this has no effect, either the consequences are wrong or it's time to retreat. Here's were I may be totally wrong, your example of ten minutes. Suppose those ten minutes are him burying his head under the pillow, staying completely dressed, you have to unzip his pants remove his penis get on top of him and have sex. No communication, no touching. You have to clean him, zip his pants, and then wait a month. (might as well have a dildo) You and I both know that you would have known better, and would not do that again. Your self worth would be lower than a snake full of buckshot! What if he just called it, "his low libido?" and that you need to compromise? This is were communication, and boundaries come in, not compromise. This IS the marked price, take it or leave it, or the price goes up, and there are plenty of other buyers out there. I agree with you that might as well be a dildo and it's not sex. Sex is a shared activity and my ex never just laid there. We usually had 2 or 3 positions in an average of 15 minutes but of course 15 minutes of sex in 365 days in the year did not work for me. All I'm saying is if I want sex twice a week and the spouse wants it once a year then once a month i would have stayed. Also I would never have known any better because I would not have outsourced. So I could have compromised with once a month. I am better off that I did outsource because it opened my eyes to what a selfish partner my ex was. Life in general is better for me since the divorce. Heck last year 2016 was a leap year and I got to have sex for the first time on Feb 29th and it was effortless to make that happen. Also I believe in quality was quantity. If I have two men I'm seeing and one I can see twice a month and the sex is amazing, mind blowing, passionate, kissing while we're fucking and multiple orgasms for both of us. Then the other man I can see twice a week but it's just fucking and one orgasm for each of us but no kissing or great connection. So I can only have one man I have to make a choice. I will pick man one every single time even if it's once a month I would pick him maybe even once every two months. It's about quality vs quantity. All of this is about sex but really it's about connection. Anyway, I do believe in life nothing is free and everything comes with a price or a sacrifice of some sort. So if this IS the marked price for an item (sex once a year) and I don't have it in my wallet (libido) to pay or sacrifice my life for that price then I leave the store go to another store and find an item I like even better! There are plenty of fish out there and why we imprison ourselves to an unhappy life forever breakers my heart for people living in unhappy marriages. |
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 20, 2017 15:41:17 GMT -5
Hey bballgirl! Pardon if i go off on the side hear a bit. Maybe better for another thread? Will see. Marriage is about compromise. I read, and hear that a lot. That's a pretty broad statement. Right away I think about the red flags when it comes to compromising with a controller. How they can take advantage of you. Some of us compromise a whole lot, others barely give an inch, then the whole thing is considered a compromise? Then there's the question, "why do you have to compromise?" An example. $400,000. is the marked price. As is. No bartering, bargaining, dealing,, that is the price. Take it or leave it. The deal is made and both parties are satisfied. You can also start upping the price the more they try to lower it. Like setting boundaries. There has to be an agreement. Then their has to be an agreement and an understanding of the consequences when those boundaries are broken.Then comes stronger boundaries, and stronger consequences. If this has no effect, either the consequences are wrong or it's time to retreat. Here's were I may be totally wrong, your example of ten minutes. Suppose those ten minutes are him burying his head under the pillow, staying completely dressed, you have to unzip his pants remove his penis get on top of him and have sex. No communication, no touching. You have to clean him, zip his pants, and then wait a month. (might as well have a dildo) You and I both know that you would have known better, and would not do that again. Your self worth would be lower than a snake full of buckshot! What if he just called it, "his low libido?" and that you need to compromise? This is were communication, and boundaries come in, not compromise. This IS the marked price, take it or leave it, or the price goes up, and there are plenty of other buyers out there. I agree with you that might as well be a dildo and it's not sex. Sex is a shared activity and my ex never just laid there. We usually had 2 or 3 positions in an average of 15 minutes but of course 15 minutes of sex in 365 days in the year did not work for me. All I'm saying is if I want sex twice a week and the spouse wants it once a year then once a month i would have stayed. Also I would never have known any better because I would not have outsourced. So I could have compromised with once a month. I am better off that I did outsource because it opened my eyes to what a selfish partner my ex was. Life in general is better for me since the divorce. Heck last year 2016 was a leap year and I got to have sex for the first time on Feb 29th and it was effortless to make that happen. Also I believe in quality was quantity. If I have two men I'm seeing and one I can see twice a month and the sex is amazing, mind blowing, passionate, kissing while we're fucking and multiple orgasms for both of us. Then the other man I can see twice a week but it's just fucking and one orgasm for each of us but no kissing or great connection. So I can only have one man I have to make a choice. I will pick man one every single time even if it's once a month I would pick him maybe even once every two months. It's about quality vs quantity. All of this is about sex but really it's about connection. Anyway, I do believe in life nothing is free and everything comes with a price or a sacrifice of some sort. So if this IS the marked price for an item (sex once a year) and I don't have it in my wallet (libido) to pay or sacrifice my life for that price then I leave the store go to another store and find an item I like even better! There are plenty of fish out there and why we imprison ourselves to an unhappy life forever breakers my heart for people living in unhappy marriages. Bballgirl is dead right. Sex 3 times a week which is nice or sex 3 times a month which is amazing. Amazing every time for me please. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 15:42:27 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between lack of drive and low/lower drive. Where is the low end of low? I guess the lack of ANY drive would be rock bottom; right? Then the rest is on a spectrum. I'm just thinking if you (not you personally) want society to believe you're normal. Ok. I do. I think your libido is perfectly normal. You're not strange or abnormal. You and your partner happily have sex three days a week. But your neighbor thinks YOU'RE abnormal because he and his partner have sex 6 days a week. Who's correct? Who gets to set the bar? There is no line. You avoided my question, and I know why you did. Instead you reply with a rather absurd and extreme hypothetical about how many times per week is normal. Whan ALL the discussion here is about how many times, if any, per year, that can be counted on fingers. And you well know that. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 16:08:15 GMT -5
I think Apocrypha hits the nail on the head about spouses no longer desire each other. To some degree the institution of marriage, kids, bills, a mortgage, busy schedules puts a strain on relationships. Some people are strong and giving and can handle all that comes there way and still want to cultivate a relationship with their spouse, others are weak and selfish and take the spouse and the relationship for granted. The plain thing I missed for so long was that I was in the same marriage with kids, bills, mortgage, busy schedules etc, and I still wanted to be sexually intimate with my spouse. That's because the sex I wanted was the result of my desire for her. It would have been a restorative, fulfilling feeling, that would make me feel better about all those other things. It wouldn't be a situation where I could "handle" them better than her. Think of when you are a teen, or in an affair, the lengths and risks you will go to, to have sex that you want with a person you desire. You might lack privacy, a place to shag, you have the stress of everyone who disapproves or who stands to lose. You still have that sex. When asked to account for choosing not to have sex with me, she blamed all the likely things - kids, bills, mortgage, busy schedules etc. It's a pile of bullshit and self-delusion. Do you really think your celibate spouse will not bust their ass to have sex with a different partner after you separate? That's it for them? It's not necessarily or even probably about all that claptrap, nor is it about strength, weakness or selfishness. They might share in the calamity with you, and hope you won't leave them. But he or she doesn't want to have sex with you. If they DO have sex with you when they don't want to, unless you are a sociopath, you are going to know it. You can argue effectively that celibacy is not compatible with your intention in a married partnership, that it makes you feel badly - but it isn't going to make desire spring from the grave. THat's not how desire works. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 16:18:33 GMT -5
Low or lower can be acceptable. I agree with you. Marriage is about compromise. Honestly if my H would have had sex with me once a month for ten minutes I would not have known any better. I would have felt loved. That would have been a compromise to keep us both happy but he only cared about his own happiness. He knew I liked sex but in 12 years we had sex 14 times. So I think it boils down to communication and compatibility, as well as ultimately what we each want for our own lives individually. Divorce isn't the end of the world. I'm still friends with my ex and we talk on the phone about sports. I do still love him, I'm just not in love with him. I'm not sure if I'll ever meet someone and have a ltr with romantic love but at least I have a chance now and I can have sex when I want without sneaking around, I didn't really like that. Hey bballgirl! Pardon if i go off on the side here a bit. Maybe better for another thread? Will see. Marriage is about compromise. I read, and hear that a lot. That's a pretty broad statement. Right away I think about the red flags when it comes to compromising with a controller. How they can take advantage of you. Some of us compromise a whole lot, others barely give an inch, then the whole thing is considered a compromise? Then there's the question, "why do you have to compromise?" An example. $400,000. is the marked price. As is. No bartering, bargaining, dealing,, that is the price. Take it or leave it. The deal is made and both parties are satisfied. You can also start upping the price the more they try to lower it. Like setting boundaries. There has to be an agreement. Then their has to be an agreement and an understanding of the consequences when those boundaries are broken.Then comes stronger boundaries, and stronger consequences. If this has no effect, either the consequences are wrong or it's time to retreat. Here's were I may be totally wrong, your example of ten minutes. Suppose those ten minutes are him burying his head under the pillow, staying completely dressed, you have to unzip his pants remove his penis get on top of him and have sex. No communication, no touching. You have to clean him, zip his pants, and then wait a month. (might as well have a dildo) You and I both know that you would have known better, and would not do that again. Your self worth would be lower than a snake full of buckshot! What if he just called it, "his low libido?" and that you need to compromise? This is were communication, and boundaries come in, not compromise. This IS the marked price, take it or leave it, or the price goes up, and there are plenty of other buyers out there. Your analogy, in the context of the real world of SM... You believe the market price is $400K and you have statistics to back it up. You ask 400K. You are offered $10K as a "compromise", and take it or leave it. Even worse it is suggested that any negotiating you do to try to raise that 10K offer is in very bad form and culturally disapproved. And the weird thing is that all of us here took the offer instead of walking away from the deal to get our $400K or something very close, from someone else. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 20, 2017 16:22:47 GMT -5
I think Apocrypha hits the nail on the head about spouses no longer desire each other. To some degree the institution of marriage, kids, bills, a mortgage, busy schedules puts a strain on relationships. Some people are strong and giving and can handle all that comes there way and still want to cultivate a relationship with their spouse, others are weak and selfish and take the spouse and the relationship for granted. The plain thing I missed for so long was that I was in the same marriage with kids, bills, mortgage, busy schedules etc, and I still wanted to be sexually intimate with my spouse. That's because the sex I wanted was the result of my desire for her. It would have been a restorative, fulfilling feeling, that would make me feel better about all those other things. It wouldn't be a situation where I could "handle" them better than her. Think of when you are a teen, or in an affair, the lengths and risks you will go to, to have sex that you want with a person you desire. You might lack privacy, a place to shag, you have the stress of everyone who disapproves or who stands to lose. You still have that sex. When asked to account for choosing not to have sex with me, she blamed all the likely things - kids, bills, mortgage, busy schedules etc. It's a pile of bullshit and self-delusion. Do you really think your celibate spouse will not bust their ass to have sex with a different partner after you separate? That's it for them? It's not necessarily or even probably about all that claptrap, nor is it about strength, weakness or selfishness. They might share in the calamity with you, and hope you won't leave them. But he or she doesn't want to have sex with you. If they DO have sex with you when they don't want to, unless you are a sociopath, you are going to know it. You can argue effectively that celibacy is not compatible with your intention in a married partnership, that it makes you feel badly - but it isn't going to make desire spring from the grave. THat's not how desire works. I agree. I did everything around the house, paid the bills, worked full time, etc. All he did was work full time, come home, eat dinner, watch tv, coach bball on the weekend. Even I ran the kids to their practices during the week. I still wanted to have sex with him. Honestly he and I were not compatible if I had slept with one other man prior to meeting him we probably would not have made it to a third date. Ultimately we were compatible in the end we no longer desired each other, celibacy was not an option for me and outsourcing wasn't the best scenario either for my moral compass, so the only option that worked for me was to end the marriage so I didn't have to be celibate. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 16:27:22 GMT -5
Apocrypha , you say you dated a number of women who lost interest in sex, but regained it when they divorced. How many? And of those, how many were in a sexless marriage from the very beginning or shortly thereafter? Did the sexlessness start at the beginning of the marriage or near the end? It started somewhere in the middle in most of them. In my own case with Mrs A, the first change began abruptly on the wedding day - which says a lot. I've written about early signs on another thread yesterday. In this forum, the question is framed first as a sexless marriage issue. In the divorcee dating circles though (and I've encountered maybe a dozen of these in 3 years that I would know about), celibacy is a condition that is arrived at sooner or later in a marriage that's toast and that later ends in separation. Usually - in almost every case - there is an unresolved and fatal relationship issue that might be decades old. I have COMPLETELY changed the way I frame this question, now that I'm out of the fog. Reading this forum feels like I'm sitting in an emergency ward and parents are bringing their children in to see me. Their children are pale, cold, stiff, not breathing. The desperate parents are asking "What is wrong with my child? I don't know how to treat this and I don't know what to do." Well, the first problem is that the child is not alive. An autopsy might help with a diagnosis of what killed them, but the most horrible and difficult task ahead for the parent is to adjust to a Godzilla-sized truth. |
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Post by lyn on Jan 20, 2017 16:36:02 GMT -5
Well, they can be aimed at spouses, if it's manipulation or control. But if it's illness or menopause or hormonal or whatever, it's just not aimed at anyone. It just is. I only want to interject this concept: If the spouse not wanting sex has an illness, menopause (early, medically induced, or natural), hormone issues, etc., yet doesn't seek any and all potential treatments for their lack of desire and/or libido leaving no stone unturned, isn't that a "breach" of the marital contract? Whether the "un-well" person WANTS sex or not should be irrelevant imho, IF this person wants to truly uphold and honor their marital vows and all that is implied when making this pledge and taking these vows. Sure, in sickness and in health is common to most vows, however, isn't the onus on the "sick" spouse to do everything humanly possible to uphold the rest of the vows which will surely crumble if sex is taken off the table? Otherwise, one would seem to "pick and choose" which sections of their marital vows they will honor based on what they do or don't want. There are a lot of remedies for a lot of maladies that do not cause further illness - sometimes one just needs to look in different places (natural & holistic medicine comes to mind) - if one thing doesn't help, keep looking, And yes, there is an argument to be made for the "sick" spouse - like, "Shouldn't the 'healthy' spouse honor the 'in sickness and in health' bit? Sure, that's reasonable, but, it seems to be reasonable only if the "sick" spouse has literally tried everything and the 'healthy' spouse is OK with the amended marital contract. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 16:44:44 GMT -5
Well, they can be aimed at spouses, if it's manipulation or control. But if it's illness or menopause or hormonal or whatever, it's just not aimed at anyone. It just is. I only want to interject this concept: If the spouse not wanting sex has an illness, menopause (early, medically induced, or natural), hormone issues, etc., yet doesn't seek any and all potential treatments for their lack of desire and/or libido leaving no stone unturned, isn't that a "breach" of the marital contract? Whether the "un-well" person WANTS sex or not should be irrelevant imho, IF this person wants to truly uphold and honor their marital vows and all that is implied when making this pledge and taking these vows. Sure, in sickness and in health is common to most vows, however, isn't the onus on the "sick" spouse to do everything humanly possible to uphold the rest of the vows which will surely crumble if sex is taken off the table? Otherwise, one would seem to "pick and choose" which sections of their marital vows they will honor based on what they do or don't want. There are a lot of remedies for a lot of maladies that do not cause further illness - sometimes one just needs to look in different places (natural & holistic medicine comes to mind) - if one thing doesn't help, keep looking, And yes, there is an argument to be made for the "sick" spouse - like, "Shouldn't the 'healthy' spouse honor the 'in sickness and in health' bit? Sure, that's reasonable, but, it seems to be reasonable only if the "sick" spouse has literally tried everything and the 'healthy' spouse is OK with the amended marital contract. There is another problem: TRUST. I know for a fact my STBX hid behind a number of supposed "medical" issues. But then when I gave her a more serious Talk, and she knew I was serious, she threw herself all over me to reset me. And most of the usual medical issues cannot be verified by anyone else, in terms of its affect on having sex. And in fact, many women have told me that my wife's favorite medical excuse was not legit. And in my case that TRUST issue had a history going back to the honeymoon. |
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Post by lyn on Jan 20, 2017 17:01:27 GMT -5
I only want to interject this concept: If the spouse not wanting sex has an illness, menopause (early, medically induced, or natural), hormone issues, etc., yet doesn't seek any and all potential treatments for their lack of desire and/or libido leaving no stone unturned, isn't that a "breach" of the marital contract? Whether the "un-well" person WANTS sex or not should be irrelevant imho, IF this person wants to truly uphold and honor their marital vows and all that is implied when making this pledge and taking these vows. Sure, in sickness and in health is common to most vows, however, isn't the onus on the "sick" spouse to do everything humanly possible to uphold the rest of the vows which will surely crumble if sex is taken off the table? Otherwise, one would seem to "pick and choose" which sections of their marital vows they will honor based on what they do or don't want. There are a lot of remedies for a lot of maladies that do not cause further illness - sometimes one just needs to look in different places (natural & holistic medicine comes to mind) - if one thing doesn't help, keep looking, And yes, there is an argument to be made for the "sick" spouse - like, "Shouldn't the 'healthy' spouse honor the 'in sickness and in health' bit? Sure, that's reasonable, but, it seems to be reasonable only if the "sick" spouse has literally tried everything and the 'healthy' spouse is OK with the amended marital contract. There is another problem: TRUST. I know for a fact my STBX hid behind a number of supposed "medical" issues. But then when I gave her a more serious Talk, and she knew I was serious, she threw herself all over me to reset me. And most of the usual medical issues cannot be verified by anyone else, in terms of its affect on having sex. And in fact, many women have told me that my wife's favorite medical excuse was not legit. And in my case that TRUST issue had a history going back to the honeymoon. Of course! beachguy Without trust and honesty - the marital contract/vows are pretty meaningless. Unfortunately, many "honest" people never realize they're actually lying. Or, they know they're lying, but good luck getting them to admit it. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 17:10:59 GMT -5
Apocrypha , you say you dated a number of women who lost interest in sex, but regained it when they divorced. How many? And of those, how many were in a sexless marriage from the very beginning or shortly thereafter? Did the sexlessness start at the beginning of the marriage or near the end? It started somewhere in the middle in most of them. In my own case with Mrs A, the first change began abruptly on the wedding day - which says a lot. I've written about early signs on another thread yesterday. In this forum, the question is framed first as a sexless marriage issue. In the divorcee dating circles though (and I've encountered maybe a dozen of these in 3 years that I would know about), celibacy is a condition that is arrived at sooner or later in a marriage that's toast and that later ends in separation. Usually - in almost every case - there is an unresolved and fatal relationship issue that might be decades old. I have COMPLETELY changed the way I frame this question, now that I'm out of the fog. Reading this forum feels like I'm sitting in an emergency ward and parents are bringing their children in to see me. Their children are pale, cold, stiff, not breathing. The desperate parents are asking "What is wrong with my child? I don't know how to treat this and I don't know what to do." Well, the first problem is that the child is not alive. An autopsy might help with a diagnosis of what killed them, but the most horrible and difficult task ahead for the parent is to adjust to a Godzilla-sized truth. I also have a circle of divorced friends. In my case all of them that I've talked to basically said that the sex ended late in the marriage, and was really a litmus test that the marriage was over. In most cases the marriage ended within 6 months of the cessation of sex. In many cases they considered their ex's very abusive yet still had regular sex for most of the marriage. You and I both had a problem starting at the wedding. I know you don't believe asexuality can coexist with sexual behavior. I no longer have that problem because I read about too many self identified asexuals that acknowledge using sex to manipulate sexuals into relationships. Which is a perfectly rational (if abhorrent) and simple strategy. If you believe that sex stops because of some hurt that festers, as you said earlier today, then you are forced into some tortuous rationalization that runs something like this: 1. Your partner is and always was sexual. If they are truly sexual they won't squander their life in celibacy to marry you for other reasons. If they would, I don't call that sexual. 2. They happily fucked their way into the marriage 3. The day after the wedding, they now realize they are so hurt by something that happened yesterday during the wedding or during the courtship that they no longer desire you Occam is my hero, I'm a KISS kind of guy. I don't buy that tortured logic. Now, in the case where the sex is great to good for 10 years or more and then falls flat, yes, I would believe your "hurt theory". Occam would approve. As to your wife, I'll repeat what I said a few days ago. First, you surely don't know how much sex she's having and you don't know how satisfied her lovers are on a LT basis. And it sounds like she is basically looking for no strings ONS. Unless you are on good terms with them and talk about this frequently. And I don't think any of them have married her yet. Your ex would have to go through 2 or 3 marriages to prove she really is sexual, and not just fucking her way into relationships for reasons you don't understand. There is a pattern here, many or most members here had a couple of good years of sex, and two years or less after the wedding and then things fell flat. Many of us saw a huge negative change the day after the wedding, you and I were far from unique. And if you go over to AVEN and read the stories of self-identified asexuals you see the same theme, where they fucked their way into a marriage and then "suddenly discovered their (asexual) identity". You may not believe in the concept of asexuality, you may not believe your wife is "asexual", but I don't see ANYTHING in your stories that suggest she wouldn't feel comfortable over there. And if she self identifies as asexual, it is very likely she does spend a lot of time over there, and identifying with that group. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 20, 2017 17:13:04 GMT -5
There is another problem: TRUST. I know for a fact my STBX hid behind a number of supposed "medical" issues. But then when I gave her a more serious Talk, and she knew I was serious, she threw herself all over me to reset me. And most of the usual medical issues cannot be verified by anyone else, in terms of its affect on having sex. And in fact, many women have told me that my wife's favorite medical excuse was not legit. And in my case that TRUST issue had a history going back to the honeymoon. Of course! beachguy Without trust and honesty - the marital contract/vows are pretty meaningless. Unfortunately, many "honest" people never realize they're actually lying. Or, they know they're lying, but good luck getting them to admit it. Call them out on their lies and watch the DARVO. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 17:23:51 GMT -5
Of course! beachguy Without trust and honesty - the marital contract/vows are pretty meaningless. Unfortunately, many "honest" people never realize they're actually lying. Or, they know they're lying, but good luck getting them to admit it. Call them out on their lies and watch the DARVO. You really can't. Try telling your wife she doesn't really have painful sex. My solution was to come to my own conclusion and make her an STBX. |
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