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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 20, 2017 13:04:50 GMT -5
Can you grasp that their actions aren't aimed at you? They affect you, but you're not the reason they're doing it. In all honesty no I can not. Unless they had a stroke that changed their whole brain. I can grasp on a percentage bases an understanding, forgiveness, and compassion for someone with such problems. That is when my gifts of mercy, and service come in. This is how and why I am cable of working child care with special needs children, adopting children with special needs, and in the past dating woman who are blind. But I know that going in, there is no deception. You are comparing apples to oranges. When someone manipulates you by putting on a false mask that is based on self -gain due to their actions, words, and thoughts, they are taking from you. When they demonstrate through there actions that they know how to give, when to give, and the benefits to themselves and everyone around them by giving, just long enough to get what they want (like getting the ring on the finger) It proves, demonstrates, shows, What a mind game you are dealing with. You can live with that. My parent did, (many others on here did to) they took it to there grave. It is possible. After your aware of it, have time to fully understand what you are up against, then comes a never ending choice. Hard to find peace in that. hence the divorce to end the intentional mind games and manipulation, and the consistent avoidance of seeing any other side of the relationship other than their own. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 13:04:55 GMT -5
Can you grasp that their actions aren't aimed at you? They affect you, but you're not the reason they're doing it. Maybe the intent isn't to harm you. But if that is the outcome, they are not 100% innocent, either. I get a bit frustrated with people who take "personal responsibility" to an extreme - every time you're in pain, it's your own fault for "choosing" to feel that way. I get that too. But the point here isn't about assigning blame for what happened. Not to be nice, or patient, or to empathize. Maybe your spouse is a total douche. It's about you deciding what to do next. You can't decide what your spouse will do next. That's for them. You know that for you, you don't want to commit to a lifetime of celibacy and fraught sexuality. Every day, you choose hope and rather than folding cards and accepting that you just lost your shirt, your car, your house, and your spouse. It might not be your fault that that's the hand that's dealt, but that's what it is, and you are losing your shirt in this game. Do you keep playing? Do you yell at the dealer to deal you better cards? What are your options? |
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Post by Lithium92 on Jan 20, 2017 13:29:57 GMT -5
It's either a crooked dealer, or mostly, it's just bad luck and you'd be a paranoid narcissist to blame the dealer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 13:41:10 GMT -5
Maybe the intent isn't to harm you. But if that is the outcome, they are not 100% innocent, either. I get a bit frustrated with people who take "personal responsibility" to an extreme - every time you're in pain, it's your own fault for "choosing" to feel that way. I get that too. But the point here isn't about assigning blame for what happened. Not to be nice, or patient, or to empathize. Maybe your spouse is a total douche. It's about you deciding what to do next. You can't decide what your spouse will do next. That's for them. You know that for you, you don't want to commit to a lifetime of celibacy and fraught sexuality. Every day, you choose hope and rather than folding cards and accepting that you just lost your shirt, your car, your house, and your spouse. It might not be your fault that that's the hand that's dealt, but that's what it is, and you are losing your shirt in this game. Do you keep playing? Do you yell at the dealer to deal you better cards? What are your options? Well, I think anybody who knows me would say I yell at the dealer about the crap cards he's dealing me, LOL! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 20, 2017 13:46:59 GMT -5
I get that too. But the point here isn't about assigning blame for what happened. Not to be nice, or patient, or to empathize. Maybe your spouse is a total douche. It's about you deciding what to do next. You can't decide what your spouse will do next. That's for them. You know that for you, you don't want to commit to a lifetime of celibacy and fraught sexuality. Every day, you choose hope and rather than folding cards and accepting that you just lost your shirt, your car, your house, and your spouse. It might not be your fault that that's the hand that's dealt, but that's what it is, and you are losing your shirt in this game. Do you keep playing? Do you yell at the dealer to deal you better cards? What are your options? Well, I think anybody who knows me would say I yell at the dealer about the crap cards he's dealing me, LOL! You got to know when to hold em', and when to fold em". (and yes you can always blame the dealer! LOL!) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 13:47:17 GMT -5
Apocrypha said: " A refuser is someone who refuses sex. Ok - we ALL choose not to have sex with people every day. We all have people and relationships that are not sexual. Whether or not it is appropriate due to the fantasy that we are in a monogamous relationship (when in fact we are celibate) we encounter people every day who we wouldn't have sex with. Some of those might want to have sex with us. Some of those might be good people, who "deserve" to have sex in their lives, who treat us well. But we don't and we wouldn't even with we were single - because - we don't desire sex with them. That's not "abuse". It's absurd, of course, to even think that one is deliberately harming another in this situation - that sex might be owed to someone who doesn't desire sex with you. So where does that leave us in a marriage though - because they promised? How do you promise to desire someone for the rest of your life? IT'S ABSURD. It might happen - you both might intend it. But it might end up here, instead. So the solution is to have sex with a person who you don't desire for the rest of your life? Think about that. It sounds like the kind of fairy tale contractual horror that evil princes inflict on maidens, and that is exactly how these spouses feel." And this is why, IMHO, the whole idea of marriage is fucked up (pun intended.) In an ideal world, marriage licenses would come up for renewal every so often, like drivers licenses. Or, people would get to take a sabbatical every few years - instead of being locked into one relationship *forever* with no respite. In my case - my ex seems to have decided to live the lifestyle of a person in their 70s. We are in our 50s. I feel, at most, about 35; I am nowhere near ready to live like an old lady. If only he and I could reconvene in the future, on my 70th birthday. Probably by then, I'll be ready to settle down and be a nice old lady. We might be perfect for each other then!
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 13:51:49 GMT -5
Apocrypha isn't always wrong. I think maybe he takes fair-mindedness to an extreme sometimes. But there are worse flaws. And I think he's right about a lot of things. I appreciate this. I would want everyone to understand though, whether I'm fair or not, my intention in understanding my spouse's perspective isn't to be fair or nice to her. It's not out of some sense of outward obligation. Understanding her perspective allows me to to see the future. I can see her nature, the story she's invested in telling, the trajectory of her energy, the weight of her justification. I can compare her perspective with similar times I've felt the same way with someone I've been dating. Then I know what I'm dealing with, choose my priorities and let the chips fall. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 20, 2017 13:56:22 GMT -5
sunniedays, Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm. It's perfectly normal to desire and even evolutionary to have a desire for sex. What is abnormal is the lack of desire for sex. Lack of sex drive can be physical but it also happens often with people who are unhealthy emotionally. Most people in this forum have been criticized by their spouses because they want sex. Remember wanting sex is perfect natural and normal. You're correct. There is something wrong with us. Why we would stay with someone who does not care enough to meet our physical needs? Sexual withholding is a form of abuse. It's much worse than physical abuse because it's unseen and goes much deeper. Maybe a better term would be abuser instead of refuser. I had a epiphany the day I broke down balling in my car one day. It was then that I took an honest look at myself. I begin to fix myself and told the wife that she needs to start changing or I'm leaving. My refuser started giving me what I needed. I stood up for myself and demanded to be treated with respect. I got tired of taking the emotional beating and being a pathetic person who accepted this kind of treatment from someone. Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm? I believe lack of ANY sex drive is a deviation from the norm. Do you believe Low/lower sex drive is a "deviation" from the norm? I don't believe anyone should be criticized by anyone, especially a spouse, because they want sex. Honestly, you don't have to educate me that wanting sex is perfectly natural and normal. But low/lower libido is perfectly natural as well. (I'm not speaking about low libido due to physical or emotional factors) YOUR sex drive may seem "normal" to you. But it may seem low to your next-door neighbor. It may seem high to the neighbor on the other side of you. I fully agree that neither spouse should withhold sex out of spite, manipulation, or control; and that healthy relationships will be able to find a compromise solution. You and others here strive to make others hear and accept that people who want sex - want as much sex as they want - is normal, and are not to be criticized. I agree with that. But can you agree that a person who has a lower libido than you is normal, and not to be criticized? I mean, if not, then who gets to set the bar for "normal?" Please know that I'm not criticizing you or anyone here for wanting sex. And if a spouse is withholding maliciously, then I would agree that it could be considered abuse. I just get a little prickly when a person with a low/lower libido, is described as "not normal." Just as you would be, if someone were to describe you as deviant, or "not normal" because you want more sex. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2017 14:02:45 GMT -5
In an ideal world, marriage licenses would come up for renewal every so often, like drivers licenses. Or, people would get to take a sabbatical every few years - instead of being locked into one relationship *forever* with no respite. LOL I love it! At the same time, it's not in an ideal world. Every single person on this forum has a marriage license that is up for renewal, every day. Or, if not the legal document, then the decision to identify as married. Mrs Apocrypha and I are still technically married, and still technically own the home in which the kids live, but we are not living or identifying as a married couple and do not have the expectations of each other that are consistent with a married couple. So, even without the work of invoking bureacratic and legal recognition, we are effectively not married, in a lived-reality way that has meaning in each other's lives. What's more, we really weren't either - during our celibate years - because we both take marriage to be a sexual union (which Mrs A grudgingly accepted). She admitted she would not have agreed to marry if a vow of celibacy was taken. Nor was she able or willing to do the work required to make a polyamorous marriage work for the two of us. So, really, all that changed was our intention for us to not feel married anymore. To REALLY feel like we aren't married. We are still fucked - divorce is expensive and disruptive - and have a whole massive set of easily anticipated consequences that are somehow surprising to her, but, I don't feel married. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 20, 2017 14:17:47 GMT -5
sunniedays, Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm. It's perfectly normal to desire and even evolutionary to have a desire for sex. What is abnormal is the lack of desire for sex. Lack of sex drive can be physical but it also happens often with people who are unhealthy emotionally. Most people in this forum have been criticized by their spouses because they want sex. Remember wanting sex is perfect natural and normal. You're correct. There is something wrong with us. Why we would stay with someone who does not care enough to meet our physical needs? Sexual withholding is a form of abuse. It's much worse than physical abuse because it's unseen and goes much deeper. Maybe a better term would be abuser instead of refuser. I had a epiphany the day I broke down balling in my car one day. It was then that I took an honest look at myself. I begin to fix myself and told the wife that she needs to start changing or I'm leaving. My refuser started giving me what I needed. I stood up for myself and demanded to be treated with respect. I got tired of taking the emotional beating and being a pathetic person who accepted this kind of treatment from someone. Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm? I believe lack of ANY sex drive is a deviation from the norm. Do you believe Low/lower sex drive is a "deviation" from the norm? I don't believe anyone should be criticized by anyone, especially a spouse, because they want sex. Honestly, you don't have to educate me that wanting sex is perfectly natural and normal. But low/lower libido is perfectly natural as well. (I'm not speaking about low libido due to physical or emotional factors) YOUR sex drive may seem "normal" to you. But it may seem low to your next-door neighbor. It may seem high to the neighbor on the other side of you. I fully agree that neither spouse should withhold sex out of spite, manipulation, or control; and that healthy relationships will be able to find a compromise solution. You and others here strive to make others hear and accept that people who want sex - want as much sex as they want - is normal, and are not to be criticized. I agree with that. But can you agree that a person who has a lower libido than you is normal, and not to be criticized? I mean, if not, then who gets to set the bar for "normal?" Please know that I'm not criticizing you or anyone here for wanting sex. And if a spouse is withholding maliciously, then I would agree that it could be considered abuse. I just get a little prickly when a person with a low/lower libido, is described as "not normal." Just as you would be, if someone were to describe you as deviant, or "not normal" because you want more sex. Low or lower can be acceptable. I agree with you. Marriage is about compromise. Honestly if my H would have had sex with me once a month for ten minutes I would not have known any better. I would have felt loved. That would have been a compromise to keep us both happy but he only cared about his own happiness. He knew I liked sex but in 12 years we had sex 14 times. So I think it boils down to communication and compatibility, as well as ultimately what we each want for our own lives individually. Divorce isn't the end of the world. I'm still friends with my ex and we talk on the phone about sports. I do still love him, I'm just not in love with him. I'm not sure if I'll ever meet someone and have a ltr with romantic love but at least I have a chance now and I can have sex when I want without sneaking around, I didn't really like that. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 14:21:35 GMT -5
Apocrypha, you say you dated a number of women who lost interest in sex, but regained it when they divorced. How many? And of those, how many were in a sexless marriage from the very beginning or shortly thereafter? Did the sexlessness start at the beginning of the marriage or near the end?
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Post by beachguy on Jan 20, 2017 14:33:57 GMT -5
Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm? I believe lack of ANY sex drive is a deviation from the norm. Do you believe Low/lower sex drive is a "deviation" from the norm? I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between lack of drive and low/lower drive. Where is the low end of low? |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 20, 2017 14:45:22 GMT -5
Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm? I believe lack of ANY sex drive is a deviation from the norm. Do you believe Low/lower sex drive is a "deviation" from the norm? I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between lack of drive and low/lower drive. Where is the low end of low? Or no sex drive - zero for your spouse but wacking off to porn is ok? I think Apocrypha hits the nail on the head about spouses no longer desire each other. To some degree the institution of marriage, kids, bills, a mortgage, busy schedules puts a strain on relationships. Some people are strong and giving and can handle all that comes there way and still want to cultivate a relationship with their spouse, others are weak and selfish and take the spouse and the relationship for granted. They think we will never leave and I can understand why after years and years of us enduring a SM they really think they have their cake and eat it too and some do. Some will never leave. However sometimes the chickens come home to roost and in the words of my ex, "yeah I was an asshole" is the only way to sum it up. I do not have room in my life ever again for takers or assholes. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 20, 2017 14:45:59 GMT -5
Lack of sex drive is a deviation from the norm? I believe lack of ANY sex drive is a deviation from the norm. Do you believe Low/lower sex drive is a "deviation" from the norm? I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between lack of drive and low/lower drive. Where is the low end of low? I guess the lack of ANY drive would be rock bottom; right? Then the rest is on a spectrum. I'm just thinking if you (not you personally) want society to believe you're normal. Ok. I do. I think your libido is perfectly normal. You're not strange or abnormal. You and your partner happily have sex three days a week. But your neighbor thinks YOU'RE abnormal because he and his partner have sex 6 days a week. Who's correct? Who gets to set the bar? There is no line. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 20, 2017 14:49:48 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between lack of drive and low/lower drive. Where is the low end of low? Or no sex drive - zero for your spouse but wacking off to porn is ok? I think Apocrypha hits the nail on the head about spouses no longer desire each other. To some degree the institution of marriage, kids, bills, a mortgage, busy schedules puts a strain on relationships. Some people are strong and giving and can handle all that comes there way and still want to cultivate a relationship with their spouse, others are weak and selfish and take the spouse and the relationship for granted. They think we will never leave and I can understand why after years and years of us enduring a SM they really think they have their cake and eat it too and some do. Some will never leave. However sometimes the chickens come home to roost and in the words of my ex, "yeah I was an asshole" is the only way to sum it up. I do not have room in my life ever again for takers or assholes. No sex drive for your spouse but masturbating to porn is not low sex drive. That's low sexual attraction for partner. And it's s*** behavior. And no partner should treat their partner like s***, whether it's withholding sex or withholding conversation or withholding mutual finances -- fill in the blank. |
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