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Post by theexplorer on Mar 16, 2022 18:19:05 GMT -5
I did not intend to be gone so long. My car needed some repairs. The shop said they had issues with obtaining the needed parts.... They blamed it on Covid-19 supply chain problems. I finally got the car back!! It's great to have wheels again!
Northstarmom, I like your idea of associating with gay friends. I hadn't thought of that idea! My wife probably would not mind that type of arrangement. She has worked with quite a few gay people over the years.
Baza, I do NOT have another woman in mind currently. I'm attempting to create a plan and figure out what is reasonable at this point.
Lightbeam3076, Your schedule idea might be helpful. We recently had a situation where my parents needed me, but no one could contact me. I changed my plans after leaving home that morning and did not tell anyone. This would be good time to volunteer such an idea.
I'll have to do some research on childhood abandonment issues. That is something I've heard of, but do not know much about.
Mirrorchid, you have some excellent thoughts. Hiking is one of my favorite leisure time activities. I love being out in nature and exploring new places! Many years ago, my wife made a big fuss about hiking with another woman. I had gone on a short walk / hike with a woman who had 4 young kids at home. I have NO desire to be a step father. My wife knew that, so it never crossed my mind that my wife would have an issue with us going for a 1/2 hour walk. She had a BIG problem with what I did. My wife never was much on hiking. Today, she has significant mobility problems, so hiking is out for her. I have suggested that we get her a scooter. She refused to even consider that option. I don't understand it, but she doesn't want me to go hiking with other people, particularly another woman!
As far as activities I was thinking of things like going to art galleries, museums, historical places, gardens, national parks and sometimes just taking a drive in the country. As I grow older, and the ol' joints hurt more, that last option is becoming more appealing!
Yes, I have given a considerable amount of thought to the ethics / morality of having another woman in my life. (Particularly a woman in a sexless marriage.) I finally concluded that the odds of being caught by my wife are high. I tend to show my emotions. She can tell if I'm happy, sad, tired, etc. I'll probably never take such a risk. If I were to do so, I would definitely be prepared to leave the marriage, as Baza has recommended!
I suggested the open, or partially open, marriage idea to my wife once. She completely refused to even consider that option. I suspect her real issue is pride. Before we met, she was with a man that cheated on her. She said that when she discovered what was going on, she felt very foolish. I'm guessing that means her pride was hurt.
My wife has been having sex with me semi-regularly for months now. I used to think the lack of sex was the only problem in the marriage. Now I realize that it was only one problem. There is a lack of intimacy. It feels like she is a rather casual friend with occasional benefits. I love a deep,intimate relationship. At this point, it is unclear if we could ever have a deep relationship again.
I am reluctant to even admit this, but there is a reason I'm concerned about being overly attracted to another woman. I am no longer deeply in love with my wife. I read a book recently that discussed how marriages end at different stages of life. When couples are young, marriages often end in a big explosion. Lots of anger, drama and pain. That author stated the marriages of middle aged couples often just fizzle out and die from a "thousand minor cuts". That is a fair description of my marriage. I still like my wife. I'm attached to her, but am unsure if I'm in love with her. It is difficult to admit this. When we married, I promised I'd love her "till death do us part." I'm questioning if I have kept that promise.
Anyone have any advice, or resources, on how to more deeply love my wife? Then there is the other question of should I even try to more deeply love her if she is incapable of deeply loving me. Anyone have thoughts?
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Post by theexplorer on Feb 24, 2022 13:44:56 GMT -5
Baza & Northstarmom, That is an excellent idea!!! A most superbly excellent idea actually!!! Thanks to both of you!! I will make that one the last steps though. Who knows how many friends the wife has at that law firm. Word could get back to her. I'm guessing that would not be legal, but the wife would NEVER tell me if they told her. She met the guy she knows back in college, so they have known each other for decades. He has told her things "off the record" in the past that could have placed him in serious trouble. So, there is a great deal of trust between the two of them.
I would like to go back to the questions regarding friendships outside the marriage. I have some real basic questions to ask. It may seem elementary to most folks. To understand what is behind my questions, I need to tell a little bit about my past.
I grew up in an ultra-conservative, ultra-religious environment. That specific religious group is quite small. To give some perspective though, they have a number of similarities to the Amish. Calling them conservative is nearly an understatement! I left that group as an adult, before marriage. (My wife has never had any connection to that group.) So my wife and I have come from very different backgrounds.
Growing up in such an environment, had a significant impact on my life. I no longer believe the teachings of that group, nor do I follow their practices. While I have left that group, there is no doubt that living in that environment affected me.
Within that religious group, it is customary for married men to primarily associate with other men and married women to associate with other women. Speaking to a married member of the opposite sex was allowed, but becoming much more than an acquaintance was discouraged.
Besides my background, I'm not a real socially astute guy either. I'm a classic example of a geek!
So my questions are regarding having female friends. If I had a female friend who lived in this area, would spending time alone with her be a bad idea? What would typically be considered appropriate or inappropriate activities with a female friend? I know that living in a mediocre marriage could make it easy for me to fall in love with someone else. How can this be prevented?
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Post by theexplorer on Feb 19, 2022 16:40:34 GMT -5
This is an excellent website / forum. Thanks for all of the advice and support. It means a great deal, since I'm uncomfortable talking about these issues with people I know in real life.
Just a quick follow up on my last post. The other reason to investigate divorce is that my wife's health has improved considerably. She was in very poor health for some time. At her low point, her doctor said she had about 6 months to a year left to live. The idea of abandoning her, when she obviously needed me so badly, really troubled me. I just couldn't do it. Financially it made absolutely no sense to leave at that point either.
I have no idea how long she might live now. It will probably be a number of years. She is not 100%, but she is growing stronger every month. From her point of view, her improving health is reason to celebrate. For me, it means the marriage will not be ending as soon as expected. I just can't continue in the current marriage for another 5, 10 or even 20+ years.
I'm planning on talking with a marriage counselor again. It may be possible to turn this marriage into a workable arrangement. I'm not real hopeful, but getting an expert opinion from someone who is more objective would be advisable.
As previously stated, I am also going to be consulting with a divorce attorney. Baza's last line is exactly what needs to happen. I need to know exactly where I stand. As far as my wife, one of her good friends just retired from one of the most prestigious law firms in this region. He was one of the big shots there, so she has access to great legal advice!!
There are a LOT of steps to take before I file for divorce. Like Northstarmom wrote, I need to get a much better support system in place. I strongly suspect my family will side with my wife. Most of my family are part of a religious group that is opposed to divorce.
(Northstarmom, I had not considered what you mentioned about your Mother despising your Father, even though she was his caretaker. That is something to think about! Wow!!)
In addition to a support system, I need to deal with finances, etc. It's going to be a very, very LONG road!!
Got to sign off for now.
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Post by theexplorer on Feb 17, 2022 14:08:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the thoughts, Northstarmom. You have some good advice.
I've thought about this matter a great deal over the last few days. I think the real issue is I need to be in a position where I could leave the marriage. My wife controls me by threatening to divorce me. She knows divorce would devastate me, while having minimal effect on her. (I would lose most of my retirement and could be stuck with life time alimony.) Knowing that leaving is an option would make me feel a LOT better!!!
I need to speak with a divorce attorney again. Several significant things in my life have changed since the previous consultation. It may be that leaving would be a more practical option now. Last time, I was told that it was guaranteed that she would be awarded lifetime alimony. Due to the changes that have occurred, It may not be that way now. The divorce laws in this jurisdiction are complicated!!
The other epiphany came one evening when I was at my parents home. They have been married for more than 50 years. For most of those years they have been unhappy with each other. For most of that time, they lived essentially separate lives. They have slept in separate bedrooms for decades. Dad would often come home and go straight to bed. In the morning, he would leave shortly after he awoke. After he retired, he started spending more time at home as his health declined. The more time they have spent together, the more miserable they have grown. The epiphany that struck me so forcibly is that in 20 some years, that will be me!!!
It's ironic that on several occasions, I've suggested that my parent separate. They haven't been willing to even consider that option. I suggested that they live in separate homes. That's not an option they will consider either. Then I look in the mirror and think, I'm just like them!! That was deeply, deeply disturbing realization!!
It's time to start preparing for divorce. No idea if I'll go through with it. Being in a position where I COULD divorce her would make me feel a LOT better. Then when she threatens divorce, I can confidently argue with her.
I have to sign off for now. Did not have time to proofread this, but hopefully it is understandable.
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Post by theexplorer on Feb 9, 2022 16:26:15 GMT -5
Thanks Jim for this explanation. I understand what you are saying now. I'll try it!!
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Post by theexplorer on Feb 4, 2022 16:39:46 GMT -5
Northstarmom, You are 100% correct that I have very little social support left.
My wife loves to run her mouth fussing and complaining for days I see a friend. If it's a female friend, she will accuse me of being romantically or sexually involved with the friend. She has made it far easier to just go along with what she wants rather than deal with results of NOT doing what she wants!
My wife is a controlling person. She has made the statement a few times that "marriage is all about dominance and subservience." No, she ain't going to even consider being subservient. (Not that I would want her to be!!) She has only said that a few times, but her actions tell a similar story far more frequently. (For whatever it's worth, the relationship that is all about dominance and subservience is the master / slave relationship.)
My wife has way to much power in our marriage. For example, she controls most of the money. So I have typically tried to appease her rather than fight her. I'm really not sure how to reach a more equal balance of power though. I'm NOT the kind of guy who interested in having power over other people. I'm a live and let live type.
Jim44444, You brought up the point that concerned me about having secret friends. I'm a lousy liar, so it's likely any friends would be discovered sooner or later.
I have to sign off for now.
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Post by theexplorer on Feb 1, 2022 13:32:15 GMT -5
The social isolation has been growing worse over time. I'm not sure what is behind the shift in her behavior. It began probably about 10 years ago. In the beginning, I did not realize what she was doing. At first, she tried to prevent me from having any female friends that were close to my age. Then it expanded to all women. Now she wants to keep me away from other men.
The reason for the this post is that I was recently decided to go to church. That was quite out of character since I had not stepped in a church door for years! Later that day when the wife returned home, I told her about the service. She got real mad about me going. I asked if she wanted to go with me. She wasn't interested in attending, but she did NOT want me to go either! I asked why it bother her that I went to the service. She refused to answer the question. Instead she kept talking about her feelings.
The funny thing is, the church I attended has a program at Christmas time to provide Christmas dinner for poor families. My wife mailed the church a donation for this purpose! Seems like she can't dislike the church too much if she is sending them money! Yet she got mad because I attended a service there! It seems completely illogical!!!
Another example: About a month ago, I called one of my childhood friends. I've known this woman for over 40 years! There has NEVER been kind of romance between us. She is not a blood relative, but she is practically a family member. Back when we lived in the same area, she would frequently join my family for holiday meals, etc. When we were teenagers, I spent a great deal of time at her home. Her Mother was like a second Mother to me!! I secretly wanted her parents to adopt me!! (Today she lives a considerable distance away, so we very rarely visit in person.) Over the years, I've typically called her 3 or 4 times per year and we send e-mails probably once a month on average. The wife has access to our e-mails! There are NOT any secrets. The wife has known this woman for almost as long as she has known me. The last few times I've called her, the wife has complained about that!
To answer Mirrorchid's questions: My wife does NOT allow me to socialize with her friends. Before we married, she include me. After the wedding, she has excluded me, completely!
More recently, my wife has been avoiding her own family. I really like several of her relatives. She has told me that she doesn't want me to see her relatives either. (Except for her immediate family)
She doesn't like any of my male friends. She hasn't taken the time to get to know them, but there is always something wrong with them! If she knows I'm planning on visiting them, she will frequently create some "reason" that I have to change my plans.
Back when the wife began this campaign to socially isolate me, I had made a few female friends in this area. When the wife was around them, she started treating them badly. Being snarky, rude, disrespectful, etc. She was doing whatever she could to make them uncomfortable. After their visit, she would tear into me about how my behavior was inappropriate, etc. (It wasn't inappropriate!!!) She made it miserable for me and the female friends.
Over the last 5 years or so, the wife has been socially withdrawing from everyone to a significant degree. Then Covid-19 happened and she has become a hermit. Unfortunately, she expects me to be more of a hermit than herself!!
Back to Mirrorchid's last question, I'm not certain how far I should take this. That is the very question I'm struggling with, and could use some advice on!! Part of me wants to just have some "underground" friendships. In other words, simply not tell the wife about the friends or activities I do with them. My wife doesn't monitor my time very closely, so that is an option. Part of me feels guilty about this idea. I dislike keeping secrets from her. Is this the best option though? Are there any other options for having friends I'm not considering?
How can I look up my old posts that Baza mentioned?
Tamara, Thanks for the thoughts. I will look up the website you mentioned later. Out of time at the moment!
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Post by theexplorer on Jan 29, 2022 16:29:56 GMT -5
Any advice on how to deal with a socially isolating partner? Most of the online advice seems to recommend leaving them. If leaving is not a very practical option, what else can be done?
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 30, 2021 17:41:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the additional explanation, Apocrypha. I understand it better now.
Jerri, Do you have a link to your story? Do you mind telling us about this mentor for your open marriage? Who are they? Where did you find such a person? etc.
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 22, 2021 19:18:42 GMT -5
I talk about this a fair amount because it's one of those things that's ridiculously hard to see when hidden in plain sight, and might prove useful to know. Look closely at the part I bolded. This strikes me as an illustration of how monumentally difficult it is to break out of old ways of framing things, even when you've been told, see the evidence, and have suffered the consequences for a decade, and when you are knowingly looking right at it. You all agreed that this was about how she feels about you as a person, but in the last second, it reverts back to instead be about the kind of person she is. Contempt.
I'm not real clear on what you mean in the above quote. Are you saying that she is not an unloving woman, she just doesn't love me?
My preference is to remain in the marriage. As time passes, I have had occasional second thoughts on staying. At this point, I'm still trying everything that is possible to make the marriage work. If the marriage is hopeless, I want to leave knowing I did everything possible to make it work.
The marriage has improved considerably in the last year. There are still some significant issues though. I don't want to try guessing the ultimate fate of the marriage at this point.
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 22, 2021 17:35:18 GMT -5
Handy, If you have a list of 50+ solutions could you please post it. I've tried that brain storming approach and couldn't come up with even a dozen ideas. (The brain storming list has been VERY HELPFUL on other problems in my life.)
Catlover, great to hear you were hugged by your wife and that you saw your lady friend! Being touched can mean so much!!
Perhaps you should talk with your wife about the lack of affection in your marriage. Different people have different desires. Some folks need to be touched to feel loved. If your wife is capable of hugging, kissing, caressing, massaging, cuddling, etc. then expecting that she would do these things seems reasonable. Perhaps she could explain to you why she is unwilling to do these things that meet one of your most basic human needs.
My wife's need for affection can be met by having me spend time with her and talking with her. Unfortunately, being touched is not important to her. It was extremely difficult to get her to even slightly understand how important touch is to me. Sometimes I have to literally tell her, "I want you to cuddle with me." At first, she was reluctant, but then she realized that she could talk while we cuddled. That made cuddling much more appealing to her! We recently spent an hour laying in bed cuddling. She talked the entire time! We both enjoyed it, but for very different reasons! (No, there was no sex that morning, she was in a LOT of pain that day!)
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 15, 2021 17:45:37 GMT -5
Apocrypha, There is a great deal of wisdom in what you write. You described over a decade of my marriage perfectly!!! You articulated my wife's viewpoint quite clearly. I had not considered it exactly as you described. Many, Many thanks for posting her viewpoint so clearly!!
Near the end of that miserable, sexless decade, I had a conversation with a retired marriage counselor about my marriage. After going through what I saw as the problems in the marriage, the counselor told me, "Your wife is NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU!" That statement stunned me! I couldn't even talk for a few minutes! After considering it, I had to agree that the counselor was 100% correct! My wife did NOT desire me. She was NOT attracted to me. She did NOT love me. She did NOT want me!!
The counselor advised me get very serious about self improvement. Self improvement sets one up for a better relationship with someone else. There is the (slight!) possibility that becoming a more attractive person will attract the refusing marriage partner as well.
A few weeks later, my wife was surprised when she discovered I was lifting weights again. She started snooping to see if I was having an affair. I told her I was trying to become a better man. She was uncomfortable with my self improvement plan. After a while she decided it was a passing fad and went back to being her typical unloving, unhappy self. She ignored all my self improvement efforts after that!!
It was only when my wife realized that my self improvement efforts were part of a much larger plan to leave her that she decided to participate in the marriage again. Only time will tell if she continues down this path or goes back to her natural inclination to be an unloving woman.
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 8, 2021 17:50:11 GMT -5
" I fully understand that many wish to stay in their marriages. I doubt that many would stay in their marriages if they had an outside lover whom they loved and who loved them.
You are probably correct in thinking that many (or perhaps most) would leave their marriage. On the other hand, some would probably have sufficiently strong reasons to stay.
I read a book about long term affairs some time back. The book contained stories of married women who had long term lovers. (The author arbitrarily chose 5 years as the definition of a long term affair.) One of the women profiled in the book had lived this "double life" for over 30 years! None of the women told their husbands about their lovers. The book was called, "To Love, Honor and Betray: The Secret Life of Suburban Wives." by Stephanie Gertler.
That book opened my eyes to the possibility of having a long term lover. I had never considered the idea before. After thinking about it for some time, I decided it would be a very risky choice in my situation.
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 4, 2021 12:29:57 GMT -5
As Handy says, the only thing that will cause this to be taken seriously, is a serious intention to end the status quo by whatever means are at your disposal. Separation papers, the discovery of an affair, informing them of an open marriage - with the full knowledge that the marriage as it was, is over, and acceptance of divorce as a possible and acceptable outcome. Nothing else will center this. My wife got real suspicious that I was doing something behind her back. (Based on how I was acting!) When she confronted me with her suspicions, she figured it out in less than 60 seconds! So in my case, it was a discovery of an emotional affair. There were several things which minimized the damage on my marriage. First, the deal with this other woman had just started. I was not emotionally attached to the other woman, so it was easy for me to walk away. I wrote earlier that I fell in love with the other woman. It would probably be more accurate to say I was infatuated with this other woman. Secondly, my wife is a very logical thinker. (Her thinking is often more like a man than a woman.) Once I explained how I viewed our marriage, she realized that the way she had been treating me contributed to what I did. Thirdly, I took responsibility for what I had done. I told my wife everything and answered all her questions. I did not lie or attempt to hide anything. (No point in that, because I'm a lousy liar!!) My situation could have turned out vastly worse!!! It was unplanned, unscripted and not even slightly planned out in advance! I do NOT want to divorce, because the jurisdiction where I live has life-time alimony. So, falling for another woman was an ultra dumb move! The main point I am attempting to make by telling this story is that asking about having an open marriage could turn a marriage around.
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 2, 2021 15:05:55 GMT -5
I had a talk with my wife once about opening our marriage. It was an unplanned conversation. If a person was to have this conversation, it would be wise to think about it ahead of time!! (Don't be an idiot like this writer was!)
The context of this conversation was that I had fallen in love with another woman. My wife realized something was up, so she began asking very uncomfortable questions. I tried ducking her questions, but she immediately recognized what I was doing. She started turning up the "heat". I did NOT want to talk about this other woman, or my relationship with the other woman. (My wife knows her!) So, finally, without thinking, I just blurted out, "Why would you have a problem with me having sex with someone else, I would NOT be taking any thing away from you that you want!"
That conversation got real heated immediately!!! After an intense argument, my wife finally asked, "So what do you want?"
I sat there in silence, thinking, for a long time. Then I finally replied, "I want what I can't have?"
"What is that", she asked?
"You", I quietly replied.
We had a very long heart to heart talk after that. For the first time in far to many years, she listened to me. Really listened. (Her listening skills typically suck!)
Bottom line: Since that time, she has been attempting to have meet my sexual needs. The marriage is not perfect by any means, but it has improved considerably. Asking the question about opening the marriage turned out good for us. I would NOT recommend going about it in the manner which I followed though!!!
I believe that falling in love with that other woman was what it took to get my wife's attention. I had voiced my frustrations about our marriage many times, but she always ignored me. She did not believe I would ever leave her for any reason. When she realized I was seriously considering exiting the marriage, that got her attention. That is what it took to bring about change.
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