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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 13:26:47 GMT -5
After hinting, and politely asking (leading to begging) for several years, I had "The Talk" #1, starting by saying I was leaving. She had legitimate (to me at the time) reasons to also leave, and we agreed to try to salvage. Well....I'm divorced now, so it didn't quite go as hoped. So The Talk #2 was a repeat of #1, with a different ending. But I did start with the nuclear option. So like Baz and many others here have said, I got my answers. And there wasn't a damn thing I could do but change myself. Give up the expectation of sexual intimacy in a marriage like I wanted? Or leave to relieve the angst and overwhelming resentments. As for your deal, there are a lot of very good things written from others already, so I'll speak to what stood out to me. Earlier you committed to intimacy and affection without the expectation of it leading to sex. And it seems you stuck with it. But the next time you talked, she said she was afraid to be intimate, to do other things besides PIV with you, because she expected you to carry it further. So she doesn't trust you. You also you want her to finally just be honest with you, yet she seems to equivocate on this very important topic. That you're disappointed she hasn't. You're asking for a big, Big, BIG thing here doneanddone . "Honestly doneandone, I don't want to have sex with you" "sweetheart, I hate the thought of fucking you" "You turn my stomach" "I regret marrying you, I never truly loved you". . Who wants to say any of those, or any other REAL reasons to their spouse? If she were to say the bedroom curtains are too bright, thats actionable. But I bet she'd have mentioned it by now. So she isn't being open and honest with you. My point: having looked at what's needed for successful, fulfilling relationships, marriage, and love since I divorced, I found two very essential ingredients HAVE to be present. 1. Trust 2. Open and completely honest communication. After reading your updates so far, Id say you neither. IMHO, I think you have your answers. So it returns to Baz's question. What do you do now? Ok, I can see how wanting her to openly say what many are thinking are hurtful and disrespectful things would be torture on my part and torturous to me. But here is where i may not explaining it well enough. By her openly saying all those things with the words coming out of her mouth and her actually meaning them, in turn without a shadow of doubt in my warped mind and thought process, it would be at that moment that very moment she uttered the words she would see and have an atom sized glimpse of the exact same mountain sized boulder of emotional destruction she has been putting me through since our SM began well over 6 years ago. She wouldn't be able to hide behind whatever round about way of saying what she feels anymore and the self destruction of her own flaws will be in countdown mode. As of right now I don't care about the SM anymore, I'm going to have sex again in my life and it will be healthy, and with someone who loves me and respects me enough to tell me what I need to hear and what they truly feel and think. So with my wife, she needs to know and feel the pain and the embarrassment and the shame and the guilt and the everything else that she has put me through from making a married couple decision for herself without consulting with me first. She broke the ultimate marriage rule, making a life changing decision without consultation from the other half. So the happy ending to my story here would be (ha ha happy ending just saw that) she feel the same as i have for the past several years and end up with someone who does what she did to me....to her.....that's what I want next. I just have to execute it....
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 11:35:13 GMT -5
I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... Your stated goal is to ...what... have her admit to not wanting sex with you? What happens after that? If you are confused about a person's intentions because they seem inconsistent or misaligned with the situation or the goals as you thought them (to be romantic partners), then instead consider the result of their actions. Consider that her goal is to not have sex with you. It's easy to complicate that by jumping to "how do I get her to want sex with me?". I think it's worth planting a flag on the first point - that the goal is not to have sex with you, and figure out what that means to you first, rather than how to change it. Why isn't SHE putting the effort into changing it? If her behavior shows an intent to avoid sex with you (and it does), then how will your plans and discussions turn out? Your last point indicates that she is already at a point where she is proposing non-sexual intimacy to pre-empt sexual intimacy. Carried farther, her logic will eventually cross to ALL intimacy so as not to "lead you on". She is also portraying you as the typical "all you ever think about is sex" role. It's an attempt to shame you out of pushing farther. It also telegraphs the way your sexuality is perceived and appreciated by her - as in "not at all". It's something to be managed. Not once, have I ever seen "the talk" result in any demonstrable change that lasts beyond two weeks. The only thing I have ever seen to move the needle once sex has gone off is a real, imminent consequence. Having an uncomfortable "talk" once in a while becomes a manageable cost that can be strung out for years and years. If you want it taken as serious as you take it, the only thing you can do is begin acting as if it is serious. It begins with the unpacking the idea that you DON'T have a romantic relationship with that woman. You have an intimate one, but not a romantic one that includes sexual expression. You've already "tried everything", so this is a good place to plant your camp. What do you DO with that? If you were living with someone with whom you don't have such a relationship, then how would you behave? Move out of the bed. It's not about "take that". It's about getting some restful sleep and helping you adjust to your reality vs the constant disappointment that is fixed to the expectation that the heavens will align and you will miss it. You don't sleep with your roommate. What is the reason you are sleeping in the same bed with her? Married? Take off the ring. See how you feel after a while. It's not about how SHE feels about it. It's how YOU feel as you aim to market correct your relationship back to its true value. Want sex? Ready for the nuclear option? With as much pain as I experienced, I think that nothing smacked the truth into our situation better than the sincere pitch to open the relationship. When meant seriously, with a date with a person imminent, it was a total game changer that cut through the "default celibacy" non-ownership of our choices more than anything else. Introducing the notion of "We don't need to choose celibacy" if we don't want sex with each other, really brings things to a head in a way that an affair doesn't until it is found out. It reveals the truth of the situation without the cluttering bullshit. She doesn't want to bang you? ok. So is it important that you don't bang anyone else, if she doesn't want you? Why is that? What's marriage bringing to the table here, as opposed to, say, amicable ex-spouses and co-parents? Finding much comfort in knowing i made the right choice to sign up and become a member of this site......!!!!!! Thanks....thanks
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 9:39:06 GMT -5
So a follow up to the beginning of this thread. Last night, I made another attempt to open the lines of communication about our SM. It seemed to be off to a good start with me simply asking the question, is there something going on now that has caused our sex life to become non-existent? She started off with what i would say are the best intentions. But as the conversation went on I became aware of the fact that not once did she outwardly say the words "I do want to have sex with you". She said several times that she does enjoy sex, she thinks about sex, she likes sex....but not once did she ever come out and say specifically that she wanted to have sex with me. She went on the explain about the interpretation of intimacy from a women's view point and a mans view point and we are more than likely on different ends of the intimacy spectrum. She wants the holding hands, cuddling, sneak a kiss in from time to time intimacy and her believe was my interpretation of intimacy was just getting in on every time I wanted to or felt like it. Couldn't be further than the truth. I picked up on this our last go round of conversations about SM. So, i made the adjustments. I do hold her hand, i do give back massages with out any intentions of wanting or initiating sex, i do cuddle next to her on the couch.....so where did i miss the part about her wanting to have sex with me. Oh yeah I didn't miss it because she never said it. Then she goes on to talk about the biggest hindrance which would be getting pregnant again and not wanting to. And she all but admitted that she has never been in a position to enjoy sex without a purpose, meaning when we were trying to get pregnant she enjoyed it because that was the reason for having sex, before we were trying to get pregnant we were having sex and she enjoyed it because she was on birth control so for her now she can't enjoy it without thinking omg what if i get pregnant. When i pressed her for the option of 'there are other things we can do that don't involve the D in the P' she all but avoided that as well saying that we were to do that what would stop me from wanting to go all the way which then she says that's what she thinks about when it comes to sex. I guess the point to this follow up is that it is slowly becoming more clear to me that I am not the reason but she is and will never take ownership of it. I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... It sounds as though you feel this was a very unsatisfactory conversation. But in reality you are both communicating your positions very clearly. She doesn't want to come out and say 'I don't really want to have sex with you', but nor does she want to lead you on or suggest that she does. So she is telling you exactly how she feels. So the next question is why do you need her to come out and say it explicitly? And what difference will it make to your situation? If she were to openly say the words then i guess it would be like the huge sigh of relief not just for me but for her as well. I am still vested in the relationship enough to want to have the conversation and to figure out what can be done if anything to fix it. One of my biggest concerns in all of this SM issues is the complete and utter honesty about it from her side. Other than all but saying it continues to give her the out of continuing down the same road whereas if and when she finally openly can say it, IF, that is truly her honest answer and position in this whole issue then we can start the next stage of either rebuild or go our seperate ways. But until she can stop tip toeing around and sugar coat things or speak in generalizations then we will spin on the wheel.
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 8:51:38 GMT -5
It sounds as though you feel this was a very unsatisfactory conversation. But in reality you are both communicating your positions very clearly. She doesn't want to come out and say 'I don't really want to have sex with you', but nor does she want to lead you on or suggest that she does. So she is telling you exactly how she feels. So the next question is why do you need her to come out and say it explicitly? And what difference will it make to your situation?You know, having her admit it or even say it makes it real not just for me but for her as well. And that would be at the point that I know she was being 100% honest with me and herself.
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 26, 2017 13:06:46 GMT -5
It's hard to interpret content and intent with written words. Let me try it like this. She is one of my longest and best friends and I would drop everything if she needed me, but in no way would there ever be anything sexual between me and my friend. Besides, I respect her to much and then.......euh.... no way. Dropping my wife comment was just a jab at her now than before early on in our marriage. It's a brother sister type friendship i have with her and my wife knows that, believes that, and trusts that. Unfortunately, that is the on thing my wife hangs onto and throws around in arguments just because she doesn't any other excuse to bail her out of taking and accepting responsibility in whatever the argument is about. I may not be married for long if things don't change. I get we all think differently but this is one of those situations that you just have to be in my shoes to understand the type of friendships I have. And don't f-off, I like the feedback. lol Okay -- I did figure that would be the direction you would go. Just giving something to think about. Sexlessness takes a toll and the relationship does start to suffer and our priorities, rightfully so, do change. A SM is not a healthy one so I was off for stating my thought on it like I did in the first place. Yes, if she was taking ownership she could use that comment that appears to have hurt her to learn more, grow, instead of just blame you or "use it" to punish you or shut you down. Now we're on the same page.....!
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 26, 2017 12:52:15 GMT -5
One of the women, one of my best friends in the entire world that I would drop everything for, including my wife but not in a sexual nature, was a little tipsy and told my wife that we needed to have another baby before I ended up getting someone else pregnant.....all joking.....my wife knows this women and knows how she jokes like this all the time. But ever since that one time, she will always throw that into whatever argument we are having just as a reminder and to use as an excuse for no sex. Can I ask why you are married then? What is the point of having a wife if you put this best friend of yours BEFORE her? I guess I don't get that. And that comment DOES hurt your marriage. It certainly doesn't protect it. Your friend doesn't seem to protect your marriage or respect it. If my husband's co-worker said that we would be having one serious fucking conversation and it wouldn't be based on "jealousy" but an uber red flag. You would drop your wife in a heartbeat for this friend of yours. How can you have a long lasting loving marriage? That is a powerful intention underlying everything. Sorry -- just my crazy opinion. I will feel horrible for stating it as soon as I hit submit. You can tell me to f'-off. I just think really differently than some, I think. It's hard to interpret content and intent with written words. Let me try it like this. She is one of my longest and best friends and I would drop everything if she needed me, but in no way would there ever be anything sexual between me and my friend. Besides, I respect her to much and then.......euh.... no way. Dropping my wife comment was just a jab at her now than before early on in our marriage. It's a brother sister type friendship i have with her and my wife knows that, believes that, and trusts that. Unfortunately, that is the on thing my wife hangs onto and throws around in arguments just because she doesn't any other excuse to bail her out of taking and accepting responsibility in whatever the argument is about. I may not be married for long if things don't change. I get we all think differently but this is one of those situations that you just have to be in my shoes to understand the type of friendships I have. And don't f-off, I like the feedback. lol
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 26, 2017 12:12:08 GMT -5
My first wife was so suspicious about everything I did. Let me give you a little back story here. I was in the military when I married my first wife. The career field I was in I did a ton of traveling and the job was on the medical side and anyone who can surmise this knows that the medical profession by nature and history is predominately female. More women in medicine than men not necessarily doctors but nurses and specialist. Anyways, because I traveled a lot (2-3 times a month for minimum 3 days) I was always around women. So my first wife was always looking over her shoulder and mine. Needless to say there were other reasons that marriage ended but it did. But she would go through my phone, my computer, my laptop, my suitcase....she would even go as far as to pack my bag for when I was traveling and take note of what she packed and if I wore something or didn't, if i used all my toothpaste or bought new shaving cream, or why I had a different razor.....that took it toll but wasn't the deal breaker for the marriage. Fast forward to my current wife. She knew going into the union what was up with my traveling and core group of friends, predominately women, and was cool with it. Then it happened. One time when while I was traveling I skyped her while at dinner, this was just after or few months after our daughter was born. Everyone wanted to see my little girl so I skyped my wife and said show them our little girl. She did we talked, she talked to who is now friends with her good friends of mine, girls, women....no worries right. One of the women, one of my best friends in the entire world that I would drop everything for, including my wife but not in a sexual nature, was a little tipsy and told my wife that we needed to have another baby before I ended up getting someone else pregnant.....all joking.....my wife knows this women and knows how she jokes like this all the time. But ever since that one time, she will always throw that into whatever argument we are having just as a reminder and to use as an excuse for no sex.
Privacy is important in any relationship and if there is a reason of any doubt, that needs to be addressed right away without hesitation. Stop the train, find the conductor and get it resolved before you move any further. Otherwise it will be a long long long long ride to where ever that train goes. I've never been the jealous type. As the matter of fact that reminds me of a new thread to start..... Bottom line, I hate people who pry into the privacy of others. It shows their true selfless character.
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 26, 2017 11:50:09 GMT -5
I've tried every approach imaginable to open the lines of communication about out SM to my wife. I don't think she really cares about sex anymore to be honest. How would anyone go about starting the conversation about the SM with your spouse if it hasn't already started? So a follow up to the beginning of this thread. Last night, I made another attempt to open the lines of communication about our SM. It seemed to be off to a good start with me simply asking the question, is there something going on now that has caused our sex life to become non-existent? She started off with what i would say are the best intentions. But as the conversation went on I became aware of the fact that not once did she outwardly say the words "I do want to have sex with you". She said several times that she does enjoy sex, she thinks about sex, she likes sex....but not once did she ever come out and say specifically that she wanted to have sex with me. She went on the explain about the interpretation of intimacy from a women's view point and a mans view point and we are more than likely on different ends of the intimacy spectrum. She wants the holding hands, cuddling, sneak a kiss in from time to time intimacy and her believe was my interpretation of intimacy was just getting in on every time I wanted to or felt like it. Couldn't be further than the truth. I picked up on this our last go round of conversations about SM. So, i made the adjustments. I do hold her hand, i do give back massages with out any intentions of wanting or initiating sex, i do cuddle next to her on the couch.....so where did i miss the part about her wanting to have sex with me. Oh yeah I didn't miss it because she never said it. Then she goes on to talk about the biggest hindrance which would be getting pregnant again and not wanting to. And she all but admitted that she has never been in a position to enjoy sex without a purpose, meaning when we were trying to get pregnant she enjoyed it because that was the reason for having sex, before we were trying to get pregnant we were having sex and she enjoyed it because she was on birth control so for her now she can't enjoy it without thinking omg what if i get pregnant. When i pressed her for the option of 'there are other things we can do that don't involve the D in the P' she all but avoided that as well saying that we were to do that what would stop me from wanting to go all the way which then she says that's what she thinks about when it comes to sex. I guess the point to this follow up is that it is slowly becoming more clear to me that I am not the reason but she is and will never take ownership of it. I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts......
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 26, 2017 9:18:32 GMT -5
Or maybe........ You're just not as good as you think you are in bed Maybe not but at least my self confidence, love, and emotions are truthful enough for me to want to initiate the physical contact between us...... And as long as we are being honest here, when's the last time you told your partner that he/she was not as good as they think they are face to face.....? And if you did actually tell someone that then you are a cold cold person, even if it were true from your perspective and experience. That's just cold hearted and not right..... just say'n
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 25, 2017 14:34:10 GMT -5
I've tried every approach imaginable to open the lines of communication about out SM to my wife. I don't think she really cares about sex anymore to be honest. How would anyone go about starting the conversation about the SM with your spouse if it hasn't already started?
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 25, 2017 13:30:52 GMT -5
it can be one of the worst roller coaster rides i have ever been on. One day I'm good and the next it's all that consumes my thoughts throughout the day. Most days are meh, and then I get home and the routine starts. Hug, hug, how was your day? How was school? Good, good, uh huh, uh huh. Me too. Yeah it was busy. No, I was in meetings....blah blah blah blah.....pour a drink, try and kick of the shoes but am met with not one but two bags of kitchen trash sitting on the kitchen floor against the side of the kitchen island.....what the F were you SOOO busy with that during your entire day off not one but two bags of garbage couldn't find their way to the trashcan outside...? Are you kidding me I know for a fact that the trash was empty from last night because I took the sh**t out last night before locking up the house and cleaning up your f...ing mess. Then the wife attempts to talk to me from the kitchen OVER the volume of whatever kids show or kids movie is being blasted from my television that my daughter is watching in the living room. I say I can't hear you can you please say it again, I turn down the television, wife repeats herself louder saying she can't hear herself think, I ask why she didn't tell daughter to turn it down, wife gets made thinks I'm telling her how to be a parent, fight breaks out, daughter runs to her room to avoid the yelling......now i have to play the guilty party here since I haven't been here all day to see or be a part of any of what she's had to deal with. But when I'm off and have my daughter there isn't the first issue or problem all day. I don't get it. I just don't get it.....smh
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 25, 2017 12:45:09 GMT -5
For those of you who don't know me, I was in an ILIASM deal for many years, got out in 2009. And I've been in the relationship of my life since 2010. Just wanted to make that point as back story. My relationship really resembles more "2" than it does "1". In as much as Ms enna and I have very different careers, hobbies, etc etc. And that, has not had any great downsides. I like that Ms enna has interests outside of "us", and I like that I have interests outside of "us". I see that as healthy and balanced. I don't want to be "joined at the hip" with Ms enna 24/7, and she doesn't want to be joined at the hip with me. But when the party is over, or when I return home after the drag races, or she returns home from her book club meeting, well then, then, it's just us. And at that point, everything else in our lives gets shoved onto the back burner. Those outside interests we individually have assume their rightful place, 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th in the pecking order. #1 is "us". And part of that is getting "joined at the hips" in a good way. Personally, I think that a great relationship needs a few core values common to both parties. I do NOT think that a great relationship necessarily needs a lot of common interests. maybe this is type 3 This is all well and good and i have to think and believe that everyone's circumstances and situations are different. We are individuals first and together we can become one. I like that you both have things separate and then have things together. That is balanced and healthy. When you live with a hermit crab and all she wants to do is stay in and do nothing, or only do what she wants to do, then it becomes lonely and it is at that point when I am in the #2 place. I could care less if she is at home when i get there or vice versa. As long as my daughter is taken care of and safe I'm good.
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 25, 2017 12:28:04 GMT -5
Ok.... I found this on youtube and found it hilarious..... you gotta give it a watch...
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 25, 2017 12:01:03 GMT -5
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 25, 2017 11:55:24 GMT -5
Everyone here has their own way of dealing with their individual issues and circumstances. I think what i have found awesome about this site is within the first couple of days visiting and sharing my particular set of circumstances are that it kind of has lifted a weight off my shoulders. This is a form of communication that people tend to forget about and even if no one reply's to you and all you do is post what's on your mind, hey at least you aren't beating your dog, or taking 10 shots of Fireball and getting behind the wheel, both I do not recommend at all. This has been a stress reliever for me. Makes it that more easy for me to handle my SM.
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