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Post by doneanddone on May 3, 2017 12:30:43 GMT -5
All that lovey-dovey stuff alone is definitely not "intimacy." It's something happy couples, who also value and need affection, might participate in naturally, but it's not "in place of sex" nor is it necessarily needed to get someone in the mood for sex. Some people need that affection (me and my husband); others do not. It doesn't necessarily mean intimacy/connection (but it helps if it's your love language, which I DO believe in - "love languages."). Sex is sex - if sex is off the table because one person decides it, the marriage is doomed. If sex is had and one is still not satisfied, does not feel close to, nor trust their partner - the marriage is doomed and all the "showmanship" stuff in the world won't fix it, sadly, neither will regular sex. Lack of sex is the symptom not the issue. It seems like there are much bigger issues at play; lack of trust, lack of connection, lack of respect. Without those it's tough to create a happy, fulfilling marriage. Yeah, I know that. I understand that. I want to get to the bottom of whatever is causing all of those issues. She is resentful about something but hasn't come forward with it yet. She also gets pretty bad mood swings so the big M might be approaching sooner than later....
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Post by doneanddone on May 3, 2017 12:15:50 GMT -5
"Intimacy is a connection. It's knowing and feeling that you aren't alone. You know they will be there if you need them." When I say to her face, looking in her eyes "I am here for you, I love you." how can she not take that for the words they are. "Intimacy is feeling that your partner needs sexual contact as well as the nonsexual. It is being open to their needs and making an effort to meet them there." She cut off the sex, so there was no meeting her anywhere. She knows the sexual needs aren't being met, a SM can't get anymore nonsexual as it is. "Intimacy is respecting your partner. It's allowing them to be who they are and appreciating them." I do appreciate her. I allow her to do what she likes, her hobbies, her interests..... It's the level of excitement and appreciation that I display about her that bothers her. If I'm not doing back flips every time I see her I'm shit. "Intimacy is when you are able to read each other's expressions and communicate non verbally. It's when you are at a party and look across the room and see that your partner needs to be rescued from some babbling idiot." I'm at the point now where if she got herself into a conversation with someone like that, she can get her way out of it. Bailing her out of situations like that tells me she can't handle awkward social situations and that's just another issue to deal with. "Intimacy is finishing the private joke the other hinted at. It's laughing at the same things or trying to find the humor." We have completely different views of comedy. There is a happy medium were we find some of the same things comical but very rarely do we agree on whats funny and when its time to be funny. She hates when I try to lighten a bad situation with a mild joke or pun. I used to apologize for the timing of my jokes but I've stopped apologizing. "Intimacy is understanding what they are trying to say and helping them say it." I've tried this one too. But she thinks I cut her off before she gets a chance to say it so I just sit there and wait a full 45 minutes before I get a chance to respond but she gets mad because she can see I want to say something but hasn't finished her thoughts in words so she proceeds to get pissed and quickly and in a very angry voice finishes her thoughts and says sarcastically "i know you want to say something so what is it, geez, I can't even get my thoughts out before you want to respond. I can't even think when you try and but in." blah blah blah blah blah blah... and that's why I just sit there for 45 mins and respond with a two liner response. "Intimacy is looking and seeing, touching and feeling, listening and hearing, giving and taking, holding and letting go." She let go alright. She also stopped looking, she doesn't want me to see her naked or changing clothes, she doesn't touch me and doesn't want me to touch her, and all I do is listen because talking goes nowhere. I appreciate the feedback and views. It does give me something to think about. TY! Oh. That is bad. So very bad. Why are you still there? You know exactly where you stand. You know there is no hope for sex or intimacy. If you're staying for the kids, they are better off with two happy parents that are living separately. I get everything except the sex. It's such a mindfuck. No wonder I'm such a mess. No sweetie your not the mess. And my situation is similar but different than just about everyone else who is here on this site. I love my wife even though she doesn't want to have sex. We do have a daughter and I do put up with a shit ton of crap from my wife to try and keep the peace for our daughters sake. She is 6 and still too young to not be completely jacked up later if we were to split now. I know that, wife knows that so we try to even each other out on everything else involving family. The thing that really bothers me is if hinted at the possibility of me leaving or us separating she would flip out and think there was another women I have my eyes on or I already have moved on to someone else emotionally and want to get away from her and into another relationship so why would I want to leave or separate. She'd want to go to counseling or try to work through it. She may even give in to a couple of night so sex and "intimacy" in her eyes. But it would be just a band-aid. We are really close to that point of this marriage and that probably will be the next item in our next serious conversation....
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Post by doneanddone on May 3, 2017 10:30:20 GMT -5
I get that. And yes she has to know what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, what's going on in my head, where I'm at mentally, physically, physiologically..... And it's not like I don't communicate those things with her, we're married so it kinda comes with the territory. Maybe Im odd, but I have never asked my husband or lovers or past boyfriends what they were thinking. Some have put me on the spot and asked me to share my innermost thoughts. I hated that. I don't mind sharing my thoughts or feelings with anyone. My wife sees that as a problem because I should only want to share those with her. Ok i can see that but also, I'm not going to be that guy who doesn't have friends based on his wife's interpretation of "friends". Accept them for who they are and not what she thinks they are or be mad I have them as friends in my life. If i asked her what her inner most thoughts were she wouldn't have a single word to say.
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Post by doneanddone on May 3, 2017 10:26:29 GMT -5
Intimacy is a connection. It's knowing and feeling that you aren't alone. You know they will be there if you need them. Intimacy is feeling that your partner needs sexual contact as well as the nonsexual. It is being open to their needs and making an effort to meet them there. Intimacy is respecting your partner. It's allowing them to be who they are and appreciating them. Intimacy is when you are able to read each other's expressions and communicate non verbally. It's when you are at a party and look across the room and see that your partner needs to be rescued from some babbling idiot. Intimacy is finishing the private joke the other hinted at. It's laughing at the same things or trying to find the humor. Intimacy is understanding what they are trying to say and helping them say it. Intimacy is looking and seeing, touching and feeling, listening and hearing, giving and taking, holding and letting go. "Intimacy is a connection. It's knowing and feeling that you aren't alone. You know they will be there if you need them." When I say to her face, looking in her eyes "I am here for you, I love you." how can she not take that for the words they are. "Intimacy is feeling that your partner needs sexual contact as well as the nonsexual. It is being open to their needs and making an effort to meet them there." She cut off the sex, so there was no meeting her anywhere. She knows the sexual needs aren't being met, a SM can't get anymore nonsexual as it is. "Intimacy is respecting your partner. It's allowing them to be who they are and appreciating them." I do appreciate her. I allow her to do what she likes, her hobbies, her interests..... It's the level of excitement and appreciation that I display about her that bothers her. If I'm not doing back flips every time I see her I'm shit. "Intimacy is when you are able to read each other's expressions and communicate non verbally. It's when you are at a party and look across the room and see that your partner needs to be rescued from some babbling idiot." I'm at the point now where if she got herself into a conversation with someone like that, she can get her way out of it. Bailing her out of situations like that tells me she can't handle awkward social situations and that's just another issue to deal with. "Intimacy is finishing the private joke the other hinted at. It's laughing at the same things or trying to find the humor." We have completely different views of comedy. There is a happy medium were we find some of the same things comical but very rarely do we agree on whats funny and when its time to be funny. She hates when I try to lighten a bad situation with a mild joke or pun. I used to apologize for the timing of my jokes but I've stopped apologizing. "Intimacy is understanding what they are trying to say and helping them say it." I've tried this one too. But she thinks I cut her off before she gets a chance to say it so I just sit there and wait a full 45 minutes before I get a chance to respond but she gets mad because she can see I want to say something but hasn't finished her thoughts in words so she proceeds to get pissed and quickly and in a very angry voice finishes her thoughts and says sarcastically "i know you want to say something so what is it, geez, I can't even get my thoughts out before you want to respond. I can't even think when you try and but in." blah blah blah blah blah blah... and that's why I just sit there for 45 mins and respond with a two liner response. "Intimacy is looking and seeing, touching and feeling, listening and hearing, giving and taking, holding and letting go." She let go alright. She also stopped looking, she doesn't want me to see her naked or changing clothes, she doesn't touch me and doesn't want me to touch her, and all I do is listen because talking goes nowhere. I appreciate the feedback and views. It does give me something to think about. TY!
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Post by doneanddone on May 3, 2017 8:02:10 GMT -5
Is she one of those women that wants a symbiotic relationship? Does she always want to know EVERYTHING you are thinking or feeling about every single thing you do together? If you don't tell her what she wants to hear, the way she wants to hear it, she feels you are not being intimate. I don't believe that is intimacy. It's something else. I promise that not all women are like that. I'm not. I get that. And yes she has to know what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, what's going on in my head, where I'm at mentally, physically, physiologically..... And it's not like I don't communicate those things with her, we're married so it kinda comes with the territory.
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 15:20:17 GMT -5
DAMN!!!!!!! True so very true......thanks for sharing....
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 14:58:22 GMT -5
If a restaurant no longer served a bone in ribeye then it's not where I'm going for steak anymore. If I have to I will cook my own ribeye but I'm not ordering a cut of meat I don't like or am attracted to. It's up to the restaurant to attract me. How's this for an analogy: A Sexless Marriage is like the best restaurant in town beautiful linens, flatware, ambiance and music in the restaurant, friendliest host and food servers, they seat you at the table but there's no food to fill your stomach. A SM is like that no intimacy and affection to feed your heart and soul. Longhorns better never take that ribeye off their menu! "If a restaurant no longer served a bone in ribeye then it's not where I'm going for steak anymore" That's my point, I never stopped serving the bone in rib-eye. The steak my wife wants doesn't exist and hasn't been on the menu since ever. She made the decision to stop ordering whats on the menu and went rogue and has been trying to order things that aren't on the menu. When she first stopped ordering her steak, I made a conscious effort to get her the steak she wanted or anything she tried to order. I went out of my way to try and give her what she ordered but she still refused it....said it was too cold, said it was over done, said she waited to long for it, whatever the reason was her M.O. has always been deny, deny, deny no matter what was put in front of her. We've probably all seen it, that one person in the store at the customer service counter or in a restaurant that no matter how kind and nice the manager tries to treat them and deescalate an already hostile and tense situation they are going to make a spectacle of the situation and everyone standing/sitting around is looking like - "Damn, poor manager. He/She is doing everything for this rude ass customer but this jackass dick/bitch is just acting a fool and being rude for no rational reason." "It's up to the restaurant to attract me." I get this as well, that is really where I am at now. If I want sex then I have to work for it. That's just a slap in the face IMO. I'm not the one who made the decision for both of us not to have sex. At this point she doesn't deserve to be served anything from my kitchen. She's knows what's on the menu, she knows how to order it, refills aren't free here anymore, I don't do call ahead seating or reservations, and to-go orders are thrown from that side door with the sign "take-out only" over it so she better hope her window is down other wise it'll make for a big mess. I'm just over the woe-is-me petty AF attitude she presents when using the intimacy card. It's got more holes than swiss cheese at this point in our SM. I still love the comments though. Good feedback, different perspectives....ty!
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 13:48:44 GMT -5
Does anyone ever feel that intimacy is on the over rated side of SM? I get the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus b.s. We as humans, especially opposite sex humans, see, feel, think differently about EVERYTHING. Just because I like chocolate isn't the same reason my wife likes chocolate but we both like chocolate. She wants the hold my hand, rub my back, cuddle with me intimacy, which I have tried, attempted, gone the extra mile to go out of my way to do but yet here I am in a SM. Multiple reason but the wanting more intimacy from her point of view is another on the list of reasons why we don't have sex. She doesn't feel a closeness, she doesn't feel comfortable with her body, too tired, stresses....so on so forth. But when it comes to the intimacy reason, it is a rather weak and outdated reason to throw up on the wall and hope it sticks. Do you remember those kid toy octopus that you would throw on the wall and it would take like forever to crawl its way down just so you could throw it on the wall again but after time you would throw it on the wall and it would just bounce off because the stickiness had worn off. That's what I feel about the intimacy clause in my SM. It shouldn't even be on the table as a reason to withhold sex. I mean look at it from the simplest view point. Sex in and of itself is being intimate with someone. The physical act is as close to someone as you can get. And if anyone wants to compare holding hands, back rubs, foot massages, cuddling to getting oral, having intercourse, hand stimulation and orgasm, I'm sure there is an opinion to be had but all in all both sides of the equation there is physical contact. So if her definition of "intimacy" is some form of physical contact but I am not offering her the exact physical contact she is asking for BUT I am offering physical contact and she refuses it, that is all on her not me. It would be like if you went to your favorite steak restaurant and asked them for your favorite steak and they said they were out but had 15 other steaks to offer you. Would you refuse their steaks and never return to the restaurant or would you order one of the other steaks simply because you were in the mood for steak and it didn't matter which one you got as long as it came from your favorite restaurant. Sex is the steak, we the denied are the restaurant, and our refusers are the ones ordering. They say they like steak, want steak, but if it's not the steak they want when they want it and how they want it, don't bother offering. As the matter of fact they get upset when we ask them if they want steak. In this analogy, the customer is not always right and me being the restaurant owner and manager I feel like I can kick anyone out of my place that is being a disruptive customer and advertise to new customers who will appreciate my steaks.
Just my humble opinion but my wife's perspective of what she considers intimacy is complete and utter bullshit and holds no more weight a cup of air.
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 13:28:50 GMT -5
My husband was raised Mormon - as far as I'm concerned this "religion" is a cult. The body shaming, moral strictness, ingnoring of the self and the identity and the general idea that sex is dirty and bad did a BIG number on him. My apologies if this view of the LDS church is offensive to anyone.... He stopped believing as a preteen and left the church as a young adult but I am convinced that he was already sufficiently brainwashed enough to have a really damaged, sad (and boring) view of sexuality. I am 7 years into a mostly sexless marriage. We only have sex maybe once every 6-8 weeks. He never touches me, not even cuddles an snuggles, is uncomfortable with intimacy and is incredibly closed down. I still do love him dearly - he is my best friend. However, it's all coming to a head. Has anyone else dealt with a spouse's sexually dysfunction caused by a cult or religion? My wife was raised in Florida. Would you consider Floridian's a cult? And she has red hair. That alone should tell you how F'ed up I am. Red head, from Florida = Pale women with a short fuse. lol
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 13:21:07 GMT -5
Just read through all the posts from the last time I hit this chain of posts up from a few days back. Had yet another long sleepless night of wondering what the fuck did I do to deserve this. Night started out just fine, wife and I made dinner, wife and I watched some television, played go fish with our daughter, read bedtime stories together as a family, then wife and I watched more television before going to bed. Had great conversation about work, talked about family..... But the moment, the exact moment I reach my hand out to her and touch her back while lying in bed, literally, and I mean literally, I counted in my head, 60 secs later she's deep breathing and sighing as if she is already in REM.
Fun fact for all....in REM sleep there is a lot more active eye movement and body movement, small twitching and occasional jerks. Here is a fun thing to do, if your spouse is the refuser and acts like they are asleep, lick their face......yup, lick their face and you'll know instantly if they are faking it or not. Especially if you get any part of the nose and eye all in one lick. I did that to my wife one night and caught her dead to right, and ever since if she tries that shit she knows she's going to get my tongue on her face just for shits and giggle on my part. And it's at this point I don't give a shit if she wants to have sex or not, the fact that she acts like she's tired to avoid it....yeah she deserves to be licked on the face.
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 13:00:24 GMT -5
Anyone who takes time to actually go through and analyze this pic has way too much time on their hands and probably could've had sex in the time it would take to figure it all out.... Way to busy Guess I'm one of those people... Just poking at ya.....lol
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 12:53:35 GMT -5
I remembered this graphic titled "The Varieties of Intimate Relationship". It categorizes all intimate relationships in to three broad categories: - Celibacy (pink) - Monogamy (green) - Non-monogamy (grey) Note there are a wide variety of non-monogamous relationships: - Polygamy (one man, multiple wives) - Polyandry (one woman, multiple husbands) - Polyamory (multiple spousal-like relationships in a cluster) - Swinging - Open marriage None of these non-monogamous relationships are called "cheating"; not in the graphic, not in general usage. However, one form of non-monogamy is fundamentally different: - Non-consensual non-monogamy (additional sexual partners without the consent of your first one) This is -- in this graphic -- labelled "Cheating". This is the very sense I was getting at in my post: the key element of "what make cheating cheating" is the LACK OF APPROVAL of your spouse. They are "not consenting" if they 1) don't know about it, or 2) know about it and disapprove. Original link: s3.amazonaws.com/infobeautiful2/940_intimate_relationship.pngAnyone who takes time to actually go through and analyze this pic has way too much time on their hands and probably could've had sex in the time it would take to figure it all out.... Way to busy
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 11:08:52 GMT -5
I'm sure this has been asked before but what exactly what behavior do you all think crosses the line into cheating? Is it the physical act of sex with another person or more when you become emotionally distant to your refusing spouse? The reason I ask this is it's been a long 14 years since I've had sex with anyone and I've been lusting over another man for over a year now. There has been no physical contact between us, not that I wouldn't welcome it with open arms. Now I wonder if I've been emotionally cheating on my H all along? I was going to ask you to flip the script and tell me how you would feel if your H was emotionally vested in another women as you are with this other man, but I won't because you are not the refusing spouse your H is. He isn't in your shoes and neither you in his so it wouldn't be fair of me to ask the question. But I have always come back to this particular circumstance, would I be ok with my spouse doing this? If the answer is yes, then I wouldn't consider it "cheating" but if I say no, then it's more like a double standard.....do as I say not as I do and still not "cheating". Cheating has different meanings and perceptions for everyone. What I think is cheating, you may not think is. For a teenager, looking at another person probably constitutes as cheating. Holding hands, hugs, flirting, kisses on the cheek....the list can go on and on. I guess what I would concentrate on is trying to figure out how the H feels about your "emotional" connection with this other man and go from there. That will answer your question for your situation.
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 28, 2017 8:58:32 GMT -5
I've tried every approach imaginable to open the lines of communication about out SM to my wife. I don't think she really cares about sex anymore to be honest. How would anyone go about starting the conversation about the SM with your spouse if it hasn't already started? So, I imagine that you and your spouse don't talk about this too after, just judging from this post. One thing I regret, in my own debacle here, is not SPELLING it out to my H right as things started going south. I did the kind letters, sexy lingerie, suggestive remarks, god, you name it, I tried it. This has been going on for 11 years. Anyone that knows me KNOWS I'm not some shrinking violet. Well, why am I in this instance? I dunno, all I can offer to you is this- SPELL IT OUT. Lay your your cards on the table. I.e., "we need to be having ENTHUSIASTIC sex at least 3x per week. If not, we're getting divorced. Please do this. Ugh I would've saved so much time ETC had I laid my own cards on the table instead of all of my "sweet" little sentiments, lovely, heartfelt letters, scented candles, whatever. A simple, "F*CK ME or WE ARE DONE" may have worked. Hindsight is 20-20. God, I hate that saying. I am slowly approaching that mark. The "talks" we have had, at least recently, have seen slight.....I mean slight subtle change in not really behavior but rather attitude towards what you would call ENTHUSIASTIC sex but in my case it was just simple contact, like cuddle or her laying with me on the couch. She claims she wants all that touchy feely stuff, holding hands, back rubs, foot massages.....but without all the other leading into foreplay and sex whether it's intercourse or otherwise. So she gets hesitant anytime I get close and withdrawls. But recently the conversations we've had, I do see a very subtle change in her attitude when we do lay on the couch or riding in the car and I reach my hand over and lay it on her leg, things like that. We are at a tipping point with the SM and to lay out the descriptive 3x a week deal, she would see that as an ultimatum and skip out before I even had the opportunity to make a move first. But I do appreciate the feedback and thank you for sharing. This place is a great outlet to vent and cope and share with others and I'm glad you chimed in on my thoughts. Appreciate it very much.....
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 13:55:31 GMT -5
Ok, I can see how wanting her to openly say what many are thinking are hurtful and disrespectful things would be torture on my part and torturous to me. But here is where i may not explaining it well enough. By her openly saying all those things with the words coming out of her mouth and her actually meaning them, in turn without a shadow of doubt in my warped mind and thought process, it would be at that moment that very moment she uttered the words she would see and have an atom sized glimpse of the exact same mountain sized boulder of emotional destruction she has been putting me through since our SM began well over 6 years ago. She wouldn't be able to hide behind whatever round about way of saying what she feels anymore and the self destruction of her own flaws will be in countdown mode. As of right now I don't care about the SM anymore, I'm going to have sex again in my life and it will be healthy, and with someone who loves me and respects me enough to tell me what I need to hear and what they truly feel and think. So with my wife, she needs to know and feel the pain and the embarrassment and the shame and the guilt and the everything else that she has put me through from making a married couple decision for herself without consulting with me first. She broke the ultimate marriage rule, making a life changing decision without consultation from the other half. So the happy ending to my story here would be (ha ha happy ending just saw that) she feel the same as i have for the past several years and end up with someone who does what she did to me....to her.....that's what I want next. I just have to execute it.... I don't know your wife, but i don't think that the result here is what you think it will be. Like you, i am waiting for my wife to just admit that she doesn't want to have sex with me (and never did, but that is my story). I feel like this would give me some closure, notwithstanding that it isn't important like my decision to go or stay. It would be my way of healing, i guess. But i don't think for a moment that my wife is ever going to feel anything of what i feel and have felt as chronically refused - in her mind she is perfect, and she has no fault in this. She didn't want to have sex with me because in her mind i am a loser, or at least unworthy of someone so flawless like she thinks she is. Her admitting anything would only be another means of her describing my shortcomings to me. My point is that if your wife was ever going to empathize with your pain, wouldn't she have already done so? Wouldn't she have wished against all not to have put you through what she has put you through? If you need her admission that is well, but i would not expect there to be too much feeling or personal responsibility to accompany the admission. She wants to empathize with me but because there is nothing I have that she wants there isn't anything for her, in her mind, to empathize with. But she is a very complex and psychological person. She wants to get inside and find out 'the root' of all problems and not just 'the surface' as she like so often to say. So repetition until comprehension works well with her. She has tap danced around saying it, she has tip toed through the field of daisies swooning to the tune of it so for her to actually bring herself to say the words would break her and that is where she will begin to feel it. That's her crutch. When it is something so uncomfortable for her she won't even hint verbally discussing the words so having her say the words and have her hear her own voice say it.....call me crazy or psycho but that's the kind of wife i married.....we are just f'ed up people.... Word to the wise out there reading.....if your wife or husband is a psych major or has a psychology degree or masters in psychology or is in mental health....RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN far far away. They will mess you up for life. No matter the best of intention. They will crush you for everything you are worth. I apologize for anyone out there in that profession or college career path. I am a tainted by product of a person in a long term relationship with someone with that knowledge, education and background and it f...ing sucks a$$..... Get out now.
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