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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 9, 2017 1:40:54 GMT -5
mrslowmaintenance Very tough situation. A lot in the balance. Ultimatums in Romance like this, very tough. I am dealing with ultimatums myself. I think it is worth highlighting that you are negotiating he amount of cuddles even you are allowed to get. Negotiating cuddles back into the marriage? Wow. Understood it is because he is angry with you but sounds like a negotiating point all the same. You know I am over in Europe and the Brothels in Germany some have standard prices: mechanical sex is EUR 50, change of positions EUR 80, Kissing and cuddling add another EUR 30, etc. I can understand an H with low libido not wanting pressure to have sex beyond his T level (we all take time to recharge biologically and psychologically) but negotiating cuddling? Option A for saving your marriage including for your daughter sake and over all situation. Who cannot be sympathetic to that. Couples go thru problems and maybe Option A is best for now but absolutely the right choice can and probably will change over time. Option A sounds like a negotiated settlement to save the deal, save the marriage, deals / contracts can later be annulled or broken, peace treaties can be violated or not honored. I was in a Psychotherapist office this week discussing all my romance madness and I walked in to her office and said I had a "DILEMMA" (two options to choose) and I walked out knowing I had a TETRA-LIMMA (4 choices - the other 2 I had not even thought of). I would agree with baza and ironhamster - there is a D and maybe even more options.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 9, 2017 1:19:13 GMT -5
Welcome. What a heart wrenching story and yet you showed courage and perseverance.
Just to be clear - you were "heading for sex" and felt guilty so did you actually have sex?
Would you say now you are "infatuated" or have"fallen in love"? Is it mutual with him too?
Have you talked to a doctor about your vaginismus? Apparently it can have psychological causes (fear of painful sex) and also actual biological causes?
If you had sex with your Lover - how way your Vaginismus during this experience?
Welcome and you are not alone anymore.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 8, 2017 17:09:05 GMT -5
That's assuming that you get caught. The term affair is really an ambiguous word. For me, I think if you are married, the worst thing to do is to get involved with an unmarried man/woman because you are attached going after an unattached person will mean trouble down the line. Married person going after another married person might be a little safer as long as both people understand that they will not leave their marriages. For me, I am developing a relationship with an outsourcer. She doesn't want to know where I live and she doesn't have my primary cell phone #. I use a burner phone to do these other kind of "activities" and have a separate email address for it too. Affair, outsource, cheat, all terms for the same thing. I was mainly using that term since it is the term @elle used. And yes, you may not get caught. But it would be prudent to assume you will and plan for that eventuality as well. I didn't outsource during my marriage for that very reason. I'm a crappy liar and wouldn't have been able to cover my tracks well enough I think. So I lived 3 years as a celibate monk. If I would have made it to 5 years? All bets would have been off. That's a huge part of the reason I left when I did. I wanted to go out with my head held high and was seriously entertaining the idea of cheating. I've got a weird set of scruples (and somewhat am also somewhat hypocritical at times...I'm human). Maury Povich once said he would only have an affair with a woman who had as much to lose as he would. He is still happily married (at least publicly?) FIIK anyhow - point taken. Getting caught overtly or what may also occur "spinning out of control" - We are not robots with binary libido switches - well at least most of us, and EMOTIONS will inevitably get involved including yes . . . gasp. Falling in Love and even falling madly in love - one or the other or even both. However, I know plenty of guys who have had repeated affairs/outsourced and NEVER got caught and they are for better or worse still married - a lot even do not have SM - just for whatever reason had something on the side and some of them a lot on the side. I know other guys for the "sex business" side of things and are consumers for porn, prostitutes, etc. I suppose that is an affair situation too - still a risk of getting caught, no risk of falling in love or spinning out of control generally speaking. Now as for walking the moral narrow ground - for example, one lives an SM and is handed an obligatory oath of celibacy because my W/H refuses me and then refuses the outsource option. Wow. Cudos and respect if you have that kind of moral character to walk the line - though that path must get very hard to stay on over time. Divorce would be expedited i would think to end the no win situation. Personally i have experienced all the "diversions" within the marriage realm: Outsource, porn addiction, and for a time celibacy. None of them did the trick, they were all "coping mechanisms" and the hole I had in my heart never left. In fact, my heart was so long dormant I even forgot I had one. That all changed one day.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 8, 2017 7:43:46 GMT -5
Funny enough - I had an informal date with a very nice lady yesterday - no sparks flew - but she shared her nightmare experience with a NARCISSIST.
She mentioned that he "lovebombed" her and one day was madly in love and she was on a pedestal being worshipped and the next horrible bad things - the term is from "Idealization" to "Devaluation" and this is also of course very common in BORDERLINE Personality Disorders.
From my researches it not unusual for someone to have both NARCISSIM and BORDERLINE personality disorders in varying degrees.
The 4 Personality Disorders are
1. Addictive (sort of self explanatory)
2. Narcissist (grandiose, self obsessed, lacks empathy, arrogant
3. Borderline (Idealization to Devaluation, extreme fear of abandonment, rages, self harm)
4. Anti-Social (aka "sociopath" - zero empathy, manipulative, conscious disregard from right or wrong - they know but they do not care).
And also what I gather "Codependent" personalities can be drawn into them.
Another thing is it seems many of us (i.e., humanity) have varying degrees or traits of all 4 - so these are cluster behaviors. That is what my ladyfriend said.
She told me in order to "escape" her Narcissist boyfriend she had to block his line and avoid even public places where he would go look for her and then he tried every hook and crook to get back into her life. She said she survived it and escaped because she had been thru worse (her H tragically died of a heart attack one night next to her) and had a very strong support network. She said she felt horrible for the first month - loving someone who was toxic but she got better. and over the debilitating heart break she was suffering. By 8 months she was "cured" and now is a comfortably distant friend with him.
She told me her ex-boyfriend Narcissist is dating a Russian lady and they "break-up" dramatically and get back together every 2 weeks.
In the Anti-Social, Borderline, and Narcissist they are all characterized often by an ability to get their romantic partner "Hooked" on their passion and love / excitement for them - though for different reasons. The technical term is "LOVE BOMBING" where they just saturate / hypnotize their partner with an intensity that is phenomenal.
Be on the Look-Out and Good Luck !!!
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 7, 2017 18:16:49 GMT -5
@feelingrejected So much very good advice and experience already in this thread. What more can be said?
Courage and Welcome!!!
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 7, 2017 7:07:03 GMT -5
I'm all for trying your best, but there will always be "one more thing" you could try. N more years that you could wait. I think the question to ask is, if you had known to put the stake in the ground N years ago, is there anything you would have tried by now that you haven't already tried? Before committing to N more years, how will that be different, aside from the passage of more time? A good friend is nearing the end of his divorce procedure - he too an SM and a wife that was impossible for him to continue with. We were talking about this "Did I try enough" question and he basically said to me, the only way you know you have tried 100% is the day you die. At some point, I think each of us has to call it. And at least for me, it was the MOST DIFFICULT call I ever had to make in my life (and revaluate and then recall and then switch and then ... well I made it to my first visit to Psychotherapist put it like that). Now in terms of "N + Years" - My W broke down in tears about 3 years ago and said we have no couple and we are room-mates. We both agreed to try and make it work and that we had neglected our couple. 3 years went by and NADA / NOTHING / ZIP happened. Neither of us made any effort. Well, let the facts speak for themselves.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 19:41:12 GMT -5
Comic relief of sorts or pretty good advice or both?
Warning: Foul Language.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 19:21:52 GMT -5
A lot of good advice. Really Good. I just ask a question
What will cause more psychological and other harm over the long run to you:
A) Denying your sexuality and need for intimacy and connecting (taking an involuntary oath of celibacy)
B) Risks of getting caught (all these risks can be managed by the way - find a trustworthy person, heck even get tested for STDs/HIV, use a condom, etc. cover your tracks, etc.)
I sit here and I cannot even imagine the level of hopelessness if I promised myself - No more sex, no more intimacy for the rest of my life indefinitely. What a nightmare.
Sorry that you seem to be in the club nobody wants to join. Welcome. Courage and Blessings!!!
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 19:08:58 GMT -5
I see I am not going to get any support here...just attacks on why everyone else is right.... Sorry for intruding on the space of all you high libido, great sex, had lots of and expects lots of great sex people.... Clearly this is not a place for me....unless I do and believe as the mom tells me..... I will take my leave of bring a part of the discussion.... solitarysoul You got my support. Yes the majority here I think are not just looking for sex per se but meaningful "intimacy" and a passionate love. In all sincerity your perspective of taking an alternative view and approach is damn worth adding to the discussion. I would hope that no one is really "judging" here. My experience has been reflecting off others experience and suggestions sometimes helps me sort through my own way. No judgment. Respect. Abide.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 19:05:30 GMT -5
tori Lord have mercy. Twink porn? I had to google it and now cannot "un-see" that. Thank you for taking one for the team so that the rest of us don't have to Google that. You may have saved us all. LMAO - Thanks for the team spirit.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 18:45:05 GMT -5
tori Lord have mercy. Twink porn? I had to google it and now cannot "un-see" that. Well I hope you know that you are NOT alone and man there are a lot of wise and experienced folks on here. I am sorry for your situation. I feel good that you are fully aware of the situation and taking measures to protect yourself health wise and future wise. Right now I am wondering if your only option is medicating with red wine and eventually crawling your way out. A lot of folks here have organized and planned and gotten their freedom back and chance for a real satisfying relationship. I would check your position and see if there are other options for you. I would suggest starting your own thread with your story and background about your H and see what good posts and help come out of it. The folks here can really help you consider ALL YOUR OPTIONS.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 10:37:05 GMT -5
@sexlessonthebeach In all my "interviews" with friends when I talk about my SM - I am astounded about how many in their 40s/50s are also SM. And yes, I have very good friends of mine who readily admit that they have low libido and have no desire to take pills or anything to improve it and are quite happy being in an SM. I know one wife of one of these guys who said in his face "be careful your days are numbered" and she seemed to mean it. If you peruse these threads, the gist of it seems to be: 1. Stay (accept the SM) 2. Cheat (outsource as best you can) 3. Leave I suppose another choice is attacking the fortified position uphill, I mean trying to force your Low Libido H to take pills and perform to you (regular "genuine" passionate love making). Personally, I think "forcing" an H or W to ramp up their libido aint going to work for nobody and is doomed. If your H genuinely wants to change and get his libido back somehow (pills counseling etc.) then maybe. Courage and blessings!!! And some people here give me flack when I make statements about how sexual activity seems to drop off at older ages ...and it's quite common....and I might leave only to find myself right back in the same place....with only half my stuff.... Yes there are Sexually active people in their 40s up to their 80s...but that segment declines as age goes up....maybe that's why it gets harder for many here to find good partners.... Just saying.... My own research and discussions have supported this conclusion... Hmm, younger partner? Not robbing the cradle - reasonable age difference. Just an idea . . .
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 10:32:14 GMT -5
Well, I can confirm my Libido is alive and kicking. The right lady is my natural viagra - proven and tested.
Everyone has their own way.
Another example, I have a very good friend who is 72 years old (into his 70s!!!) and he tells me with a big smile on his face - he is having the best sex of his life these days (I don't ask for details). I have another friend almost 60 and he averages 2 orgasms a day and he don't take nuthin but fine wine and a regular exercise of 10 km to half marathon runs.
And over there yes, my 40s/50s friends who are quite happy or at least accepting that libido is down and who cares.
Absolutely - no one size fits all - sex is subjective and libido is per individual.
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 7:35:19 GMT -5
2. In counseling, we learned what asexuality means and how it affects my h, and me consequently. I don't know how this happened. We have 2 kids. But at some point his libido took a nosedive. He doesn't have low T. But where does this leave me? I didn't fall in love with a life of celibacy. @sexlessonthebeach In all my "interviews" with friends when I talk about my SM - I am astounded about how many in their 40s/50s are also SM. And yes, I have very good friends of mine who readily admit that they have low libido and have no desire to take pills or anything to improve it and are quite happy being in an SM. I know one wife of one of these guys who said in his face "be careful your days are numbered" and she seemed to mean it. If you peruse these threads, the gist of it seems to be: 1. Stay (accept the SM) 2. Cheat (outsource as best you can) 3. Leave I suppose another choice is attacking the fortified position uphill, I mean trying to force your Low Libido H to take pills and perform to you (regular "genuine" passionate love making). Personally, I think "forcing" an H or W to ramp up their libido aint going to work for nobody and is doomed. If your H genuinely wants to change and get his libido back somehow (pills counseling etc.) then maybe. Courage and blessings!!!
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Post by McRoomMate on Sept 6, 2017 7:20:51 GMT -5
@mcroommate The options listed don't apply to me so I'll add a 4th...my spouse is bisexual may even be gay. He wants to have sex at times but the thought of sex with him makes my pussy close up. tori Wow. That is a heavy dose of reality. Courage and blessings!!! I know of one divorced couple where the H is now happily living with his new Boyfriend and his W is moving on. Back in my childhood, the family with 3 children down the street divorced and the H became soon openly gay. Another couple, the H was into anonymous gay sex as in fastfood restroom hook-ups via gay dating sites and things like that. The W busted him (I don't have the details but that must have been something). The H claimed it was "just a phase" and his W believed him - rightly or wrongly - I do not know. I am over in Europe and there are parts of town where gay married men with bushy mustaches troll the parks looking for other gay married men with bushy mustaches. Unfortunately it is in the park where I go running so I run by these guys pretty fast. I am reminded of "Kinsey sex scale" and the many degrees between absolute hetero and absolute gay - and lots of grey categories in between. Now back to you: if the thought of your H being bisexual and with another man has destroyed your attraction to him - and it is of course TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE and sympathetic if such is the case, now . . . What next? Is he just going through a "phase" and will return back to more or exclusively "heterosexual" and you in particular? Or is he having a break through and slowly coming out of the closet? We all have heard of "charade marriages" (e.g., Rock Hudson) where H gets married and has enough sex with W to have children so society buys into the fact he is heterosexual. And these days being gay is very mainstream so less need for the charade than old times. In any event, I hope YOU have the courage to know in your heart what is acceptable to you and not to tolerate what is not and if necessary the courage and discipline and support (you got it here for sure) to go forward into a brighter even if more uncertain future. PS - Gay and Bi-sexual men that are not monogamous are in a HIGH RISK of HIV infection and so be careful (I don't care if I take flack for not being politically correct, it is true - highest group: intravenous drug users, second highest risk group: Gay / Bisexual Men). It is also very easy for a man to infect a woman via unprotected Vaginal sex. You might want to abstain for your life's sake.
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