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Advise
Jan 23, 2018 14:36:53 GMT -5
Post by cagedadventurer on Jan 23, 2018 14:36:53 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying, I just don't see how to fix it. I guess its not good to tell your partner how you feel in my case. Its not that I do not like her or do not find her attractive. Its more like... I like Starbucks coffee with lots of sugar and no milk. I have nothing against dunkin donuts it just not my cup of coffee I will drink dunkin donuts when Starbucks is not in my area and will enjoy it. Regardless of whether she actually says so or not, nobody feels good about not being good enough. On top of that, there's nothing she can do to become your preferred type. She can't win. My wife knows we married due to being pregnant. She has made quips over the years seeming to KNOW my type when she sees "her" on TV or out in public. And she pegs it perfectly! Your wife cannot win - as stated here - and she's likely doing her best as mine is. But this does not matter, if you are early 40's, you do need to make a plan. This situation does not evolve in a positive direction. Bottom line, the more lonely she feels, believe it or not, she will be an eventual target and succumb to an affair, Then it all goes bad except on her terms now. And under the influence of serotonin at that. No good luck will help you now. And yes she has gotten complacent and lazy. This is common, we all do if we are honest but time will not fix it.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jan 23, 2018 14:17:28 GMT -5
Hello lostintime. Your heading conveys a request for advice and I read some good comments in this thread. You are in a common scenario, one that exists EVEN IF SHE WERE YOUR TYPE from the beginning. So erase that guilt if it even remotely exists.
Does she participate in helping you prepare for and work those 75 hours? Does she wake up with you and see you out the door with breakfast and coffee, car warmed up maybe? Clothes ready for the day? Does she ever set the alarm clock to wake and screw your brains out before work? Is she an asset to you beyond the kids? I hate that term but if no sex then it's now an arrangement so asset applies.
Advice from a late 40's and at this for 31 years. Let's play a little Shawshank redemption here and plan well ahead just in case... You're trapped so here it goes:
1- Stop the 75 hours - I repeat this 100X. There is no point in it. And earning less is okay even if you have to move elsewhere. Almost welcome losing your job which will force change.
a) We work these hours for our families and a future with our spouses. Kids are happy with less stuff and more Daddy anyway. Wife - well your vision of your future (retirement) is translucent at best. b) They take your hours and income for granted - we allow it but quietly resent it or die from exhaustion. c) You need to reduce the alimony potential. Let a couple years go by of living on much less to create new standard of living. d) Don't be ashamed to say the pressure is just too much and you cannot do it anymore. e) $150,000 in New York is no way to get ahead in life anyway; And 75 hours will wreak havoc on your health soon.
2- Plant the idea and make it happen - domicile in a state such as Florida where 20 years (of marriage) is required before a lifetime of alimony is law. a) NEVER do web searches that could clue her in to your thinking. You have to be careful and covert. Never get sloppy.
3- Unload debt, sell expensive car, etc. now. Get living costs down and further down. She'll support you. Buy and blame a good financial book for the change. (e.g. Dave Ramsey)
4- Play your part well, real well. Never allow any suspicion that you have a plan. Keep begging as usual so status quo is maintained.
NOTE: Because she is likely to help you and support you as finances change, etc. you do not want to be vindictive. So once set up in another state, if you move for the favorable laws, you can make your move. A duplex, 2 modest town homes where you each have a place but the kids are nearby can work. She can have a job. BUT You PAYING for everything for everyone for many, many years is not required. But believe me, if you do not act, you'll become an indentured servant in NY and maybe watch another man living off your efforts spending time with your kids! You don't want that.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 10, 2017 18:29:36 GMT -5
In many businesses where employees chat amongst themselves in front of customers, I commonly hear them discussing how long they’ve been there, when they are due for a break and how much longer before closing as they cannot wait to get out or how hard they work but go unappreciated. I muse as I consider that not so long beforehand, there was intense job hunting and when the right one came along, he/she was almost ecstatic and couldn’t wait to apply. Then how nervous for that first meeting (i.e. the interview). They are accepted and feel wanted! Yea. Everyone in their circle knows in short order about this new chapter in life. A job! Work! Daily routine! And yet it is all glee! The circle of family and friends was supportive. New clothes, new car, new, new, new…… it’s all exciting. Is it exciting because it is new or just because it is needed? Or is it a rebound job just adequate until something better comes along that really interests them? People, in the U.S. change “careers” an average of 5 times in life (according to a study I never actually validated). They all start off nearly the same with nervous excitement and high expectations - just as in the early stages of dating. Eventually though and for many reasons it is time to move on and we can and do. Because..... 1- I have plateaued and the challenge is gone 2- It’s the same day to day 3- I don’t like the people I work with or a specific person 4- I’m better than this and deserve more 5- I no longer relate to those I work with, I have grown and they have not 6- I just need a change 7- I feel taken for granted 8- I’m just being used here 9- I work too hard compared to everyone else around here. 10- I’m tired of the boss coming onto me so often, even if I did screw his/her brains out for the first couple of years. Leaving is relatively easy in the job - there are no ties that bind. No real emotional ties and even a sense of “good riddens” in many cases. Then onto the next job and often times the same feelings are aroused then they fade and then onto the next. Repeat until…..?
Imagine if employers had counselors on standby for anyone displaying issues of 1-10 above. Would there be much less turnover? Would many be convinced to stay for not so compelling reasons all the while secretly yearning for something else anyway? Would many stay because it is “expected? They might but just to do no more than maintain status quo with no desire to really make it work – that early passion is gone and very rarely expected to return.
My analogy is just for the sake of revealing how 1-10 happens in a very important aspect of our lives (our work) but we know how to deal with these concerns and yes, separate from them by quitting. But marriage has these additional and unique ties that bind and we cannot so easily separate. I can see all the parallels to marriage in 1 through 10 above. However, the “Leaving” part is a much different consideration. It is an unwritten contract that binds heart and soul. The sexual aspect has a way of cementing the relationship as it should and thus it becomes emotionally and even physically impossible to go. The blessings of children are anchors that hold us in place even if all of 1-10 are apparent. Does it reveal our human nature to tire of routine or a perceived injustice and entice us to go where we can thrive or at least think we can thrive? Do our refusers share a common trait where they easily tire of their “job” (marriage) and would go elsewhere if the right opportunity presented itself and it were an easy transition? I vote yes as I myself certainly would. If so, how does marriage as we know it "should be" today stand much of a chance regardless of the players?
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 10, 2017 17:59:13 GMT -5
apocrypha: I don’t know what I am going to do. I was grateful for any occasional scraps of sex I got. I am a counter refuser now. We have a good bond in every other respect. I have been with him for 22 years. I can’t contemplate a life without him. I want him to give me permission to look elsewhere but I am too scared to ask. Chris2020: I think I have gone beyond that stage now. I don’t think I want sex with him anymore after being rejected so many times. Problem is that I tasted proper desire with someone else, and that made me temporarily happy but ultimately plunged me into further depression as it gave me a taste of what is no longer in my lfe. I can no longer think logically about this whole thing anymore.
Yea, I hear you. Though I want her to want me, I have gotten hopes up for many years now and let down - when would I learn? this does NOT change but we keep hoping it will! I was gone 3 days this week and returned Wednesday - I was disappointed she was home and I had to speak to her. I faked it but not too well. She just came home today at 4:30 and I had no interest in talking. I know I am easy pickin's for a new relationship - just even a gentle touch might clear all the fog.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 10, 2017 17:52:47 GMT -5
What evidence do you have that the lack of sex is a result of lack of empathy over "how important sex really is to a relationship" vs. the aversion being the result of not wanting to have a sexual relationship with you, for reasons? apocrypha - The evidence - it is so difficult to get enough truth from enough admitted refusers to adequately provide evidence I suppose. But in my years, I have discovered that I can open (personal) dialogue with almost anyone and this issue comes up. In almost every case, the couple screwed each other's brains out before the marriage and even some time into the marriage. No obvious sign that desire did not exist. So it would appear that the desire was there. But as time passes, comfort level grows, the lower libido weans from that desire until point of - well where we are with either duty sex, "meh" sex, or no sex. My evidence would be that many refusers will respond when they feel it all slipping away but it remains unimportant to them thus the duty sex and avoidance. I have seen my wife appear empathetic to my desire and need but I'd say really does not quite understand why I have the desire and need (she avoids close contact with most anyone). She admitted to not understanding that this was an ongoing need! - Crazy to me but she tries for my sake. I am here because I know this is not from desire, is not the sex I want and yes I agree, she would have sex with another who turned her on again. But maybe the evidence leans toward they "just lose interest and desire for us" when so many jump into bed with new partners. And eventually that new partner is of low interest as the cycle repeats - these are selfish controlling people. In closing, there are many who do not want to hurt their spouse but once married seem incapable of participating in intimacy and think it alright - unless shown clearly by oftentimes 3rd parties that it is not. Either way and to your point - the desire IS GONE and it ain't comin' back. My next post will be an analogy I typed up last week.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 2, 2017 14:52:28 GMT -5
Apocrypha - it is like being with an ex spouse. It is amicable. I read someone describing it on this forum as roommates. That’s what we are. He will make me a cup of tea, do household chores, be a good father but that’s it. We go to our separate rooms every evening. He treats me well, and is kind, generous and supportive. It makes it harder to leave as I am not being treated badly. But then I am being treated badly because he ignores my desires and needs. He is now saying I refused sex because when he offered it, I said what’s the point anymore? And that I have given up. I didn’t even bother to argue with him He does not WANT to fuck you. Actively Avoids it. At the risk of his marriage and lifestyle. It would be easy to do it if he was neither here nor there, or just tired. This is different than that. You can't change how he feels. So it comes down to what are you going to do? If you both play your cards right, you might be able to have one of those occasional amicable partings where you are able to keep the most positive aspects of your bond with your friend, while seeking a partner elsewhere. It is interesting, even the story linked a while back here of the Jewish girl and her somewhat sickly husband where she and he both became quite okay with having sex outside the marriage but avoided each other but claimed to be in love! It is hard to find the logic and of course it is driving us crazy.
I have never shared this but in 2011, my W (conservative to the Nth degree) eventually caves to the restaurant owner where she was helping out a few nights per week. The affair went on for about a week as I had to obtain evidence so that it could not be disputed (I became a P.I. in very short order) before I told her that I knew. My point is that he is not handsome, he is vulgar and just plain uhhg yet she WANTED TO HAVE SEX! Then a patron, Old guy Bob with his swinging wife wanted her and she was disgusted ........then flattered! So back to Apocrypha's wisdom, they just don't want to have sex with us. But it is stimulating to be wanted by someone new and we can never again be someone new!
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 2, 2017 14:17:21 GMT -5
Apocrypha - it is like being with an ex spouse. It is amicable. I read someone describing it on this forum as roommates. That’s what we are. He will make me a cup of tea, do household chores, be a good father but that’s it. We go to our separate rooms every evening. He treats me well, and is kind, generous and supportive. It makes it harder to leave as I am not being treated badly. But then I am being treated badly because he ignores my desires and needs. He is now saying I refused sex because when he offered it, I said what’s the point anymore? And that I have given up. I didn’t even bother to argue with him I understand that - it's a common motif, including in my own former marriage. So, you make good roommates. I don't mean that to be flip. I'm agreeing with and acknowledging a true benefit shared in your existing relationship. The problems come from the disappointment and frustration that you have - in that you happen to be MARRIED to this person - and your relationship does not meet the defining criteria of what a marriage is. You are living the fantasy of a marriage, and you haven't given up. Your despair over his failure to act according to the reasonable definition of what a marriage is, is proof of that. I don't despair that my relatively amicable ex-wife doesn't fuck me. I don't think it at all unusual that I don't sleep with her. That's because I gave up, and renegotiated the nature of my relationship with her. Check my original post again in response to what you said. The whole point of it was to show you that he is well aware of your desires and needs - it's not ignorance or indifference or carelessness. He does not WANT to fuck you. Actively Avoids it. At the risk of his marriage and lifestyle. It would be easy to do it if he was neither here nor there, or just tired. This is different than that. You can't change how he feels. So it comes down to what are you going to do? If you both play your cards right, you might be able to have one of those occasional amicable partings where you are able to keep the most positive aspects of your bond with your friend, while seeking a partner elsewhere. So well said Apocrypha, They don't want to have sex with us for reasons that will never be clear. So yes, you renegotiate the relationship in your mind. But living in the same house is too much pressure on our libido's and we for get quickly what we negotiated. So as long as I have decided to stay in the house I am pushing the issue, taking the "eh" sex while preparing for an eventual break. Every day I make a little progress toward unloading stuff, no joint accounts, very little debt.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 2, 2017 14:07:35 GMT -5
"He offered sex, and I told him no. I don't know whether I just wanted to punish him for rejecting and ignoring my desires for years. He has just pretended nothing has happened and it is back to sexless marriage again" THIS IS THE CYCLE!
There is a, "yet to be sufficiently diagnosed" disconnect, lack of empathy or lack of understanding as to how important sex really is to a relationship. It is a mental scramble for us all, though this forum really helps with understanding the reality we are in.
I have spent so many years "fighting" for the marriage with little reciprocation. I begin looking back and wonder how intense is the fog I may be in even to this day, as I know I am not doing the things I expected to in life. This has taken such precedence for years, I have neglected dreams and wasted many hours waiting for "sex to arrive".
"thinking I should just accept this is my life now. Keep telling myself sex is for other people, not for me. If I keep wanting it, it will just destroy me. But this is making me die inside as well."
For the past year, my W has been much less controlling in all respects. And will acquiesce to my request for sex when I initiate. But the sex is just "eh" as ironhamster describes it. It is me doing all the work and with little else allowed other than "the deed". To that, I am constantly between staying and leaving which makes the future a daily unknown.
But as mentioned in previous posts, when we frame the situation with how things could be worse as they are for so many people, it seems to keep us going another day.
So even with sex this morning, I am not sure I'd say no to the neighbor if she were to knock on the door right now. And actually, I think my W would endorse it as along as her life didn't have to change.
Sarah, when you say "thinking I should just accept this is my life now. Keep telling myself sex is for other people, not for me. If I keep wanting it, it will just destroy me. But this is making me die inside as well".
I find that not wanting it does not last and we do keep dying inside. If he is nothing more than an Acquiescer (my new word), maybe just give him a calendar for NOVEMBER as to days for sex. It is not much, but it puts him on notice for which days to be available and you'll at least have an immediate better outlook knowing you may have a better month. My point is, if you can make some sex occur regardless of how "eh" you'll feel somewhat better about how you plan your days and maybe an eventual break. I and your circumstance are similar with kids,..... a duplex is the best solution.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 2, 2017 13:04:13 GMT -5
What I find is that I don't hate my job because of no sex BUT when there is no sex I get resentful. I often ask myself why am doing this higher stress job even if to earn more $ than a less stressful job? Why should I earn a good income and go through issues many others don't have to with lower stress jobs. No sex makes me just want to quit and provide the minimum - all the extra is not appreciated.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Sept 11, 2017 19:43:00 GMT -5
Honesty yep Thanks for this thread Caris I was mulling over this issue earlier this week. It's been so long since I lived honestly - lying to my wife, lying to myself, lying to my friends/family/work colleagues etc. - with regards to my marriage, that I've realised two things: 1. It's great to be able to tell the truth and live honestly - it is so refreshing. In fact it's one of the best things about living separate from my wife. Forget about sex, right now the possibility of that is remote (indeed may never happen) but being able to be honest about my circumstances and to live life accordingly is wonderful. 2. I have to learn to tell the truth, to use this new found freedom. It's like exercise - painful at first but it gets easier. So, just in case any of you ladies are interested - I'm 59, six foot tall, overweight, bearded and bald. All my own teeth and I'm solvent. Ah... it feels good just saying it. I suppose I should add that based on feedback for the last 25+ years, I'm probably really bad in bed... You know, this could get addictive! Dinnaken,I have concluded id be fine getting another place ...my own with room for the kids too. I don't even care about a legitimate divorce BUT please elaborate on your W attitude and willingness to let you leave because if her inability to be there as a real spouse. Is she so dysfunctional that she didn't fight it? Didn't offer any solution? Is apathetic to the arrangement? Has she thought of lonely retirement? Is she in denial? Does she ever reach out to you?
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Post by cagedadventurer on Sept 9, 2017 17:12:07 GMT -5
lyn, how did the performance go last month? Getting back to doing the things we love and of course enjoying that nice summer with your fwb sounds like you are making great progress - feeling alive again I would guess.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Sept 9, 2017 7:47:49 GMT -5
Rehearsing this madly to perform in two days - just me and an acoustic 🙄
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Post by cagedadventurer on Sept 7, 2017 9:45:38 GMT -5
flyingsolo - oh the door is definitely open for the future. For me, a fwb situation would make the most sense when I happen to be visiting the area - as long as we're both otherwise unattached. I'm just not sure when, or if, I'll be willing honestly to invest enough of my self into another to call it a relationship. Not bitter at all - just want to get myself back in tact - figure out who I am now. Be whole. Be authentically me with the next guy. Not there yet😉 Good question VERY well stated "I'm just not sure when, or if, I'll be willing honestly to invest enough of my self into another to call it a relationship.
Not bitter at all - just want to get myself back in tact - figure out who I am now. Be whole. Be authentically me with the next (girl for me) guy. Not there yet😉That is the reality. I am a very positive person (maybe a little lovesick) who wants to live and enjoy regular adventure. But I could not commit to another relationship after so many years of wanting to "get myself back" first. lyn, I am up for a hike, bike, paddle board or kayak anytime.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Aug 29, 2017 8:32:42 GMT -5
My W does not need to work but will take opportunities offered to her. The principal at the Kids' new school asked her to hire on and assist and she said "yes" of course. The pay is not worth mentioning and she will give 10 hours a day to this from preparing in the AM to home at 4:00. She won't even tell them that she wants 4 days, etc. even though this is an easy option. The alternative however is that she might be home alone with just me when I work from the house some days. Though she is behaving sweet and patient these days and will have sex when prodded she is avoiding once again. This IS the future of an empty nest. Lonely. BTW - I am flying to Vail, CO tomorrow BY MYSELF! She shows zero interest in going anywhere and never just the two of us. I am going to all the paces I'd like to see now. No more waiting for her for anything. Sure wish I had a travel partner though to share in the experiences.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Aug 29, 2017 8:24:10 GMT -5
bballgirl - I remember your tales of anger at being patronized, not listened to, ..... there was a lot of stuff that pissed you off; it wasn't just the no-sex thing. But the thing is: we go on and a lot of bad memories fade. (I had better not tell the story about how I allowed my parents back into my life and regretted it for 25+ years - although it worked out well for THEM). Absinthe makes the tart grow fonder. I thought we might work something out. As if. Nope - what was I thinking? They were still the same people although it looked mellower from half a globe away. I think also it's in our nature: we are the ones who hang on and hang on and hang on in a relationship that is ... um ... well, you know ... not really all that good for us because we hang on to fantasies full of treacherous hope. I wouldn't dare speculate on why you are feeling the way you say. I can see parallels however. These days I have a policy: when I am done, I am done. I can stay friends, I can be polite and courteous - but once the trust has been broken I keep my distance emotionally. I am sick of betraying myself. I am sick of getting burned. I just won't let them back in my heart. Even if it sometimes hurts me to see myself being so hard. {sigh} I still long for things, unlike you, I don't seem to be able to meet anybody with chemistry and a naughty side. It's depressing - working hard on trying not to let it get me down. Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree with everything you say and yes there was so much anger over so many issues. I like the part you wrote about betraying myself and you are right. I must give myself a chance in Oppositeland. I read and so relate to your heart-felt post bballgirl. My wife refers to us as the unit and gets sad as the kids grow and begin doing their own thing. As stated above, it is so true, we forget the daily pain so quickly. There is a reason people across the whole world strive for a strong, healthy and loving family unit. It is worth striving for. Everything else is temporal-though we want to share that temporal with those we love and who love us. It just seems like the perfect paradox where what we have and love can also run with this attached pain of rejection -continuous rejection. No easy answers as we all know. But meanwhile, the time spent as a unit without expectations may make for a new beginning and maybe a new maturity in him. Take it a day at a time and enjoy each moment as a unit.
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