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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2022 23:52:39 GMT -5
dallasgia , were you able to find some financial advisement there?
I found itemizing all assets helps (excel sheet) then determine what your pain tolerance level is to get the %$^# out. Then negotiation can be over by the time he thinks it is just starting as you can already have determined your "limit" to what you are willing to "not keep" to end the mess.
I look at LIASM as being unjustly imprisoned for years and you just have to conclude what you'd pay to be released. I found D lawyers are quite emotionally removed and can barely pretend to have empathy for the situation and just thinking of their hourly rate for serving you, thus too bias to be of good counsel to you. It puts the onus on us to plan this a bit in advance. I had a friend here in Florida who left her husband but she was in such a hurry she left WAY too much on the table and life had been more difficult than it really needs to be as a result. Meanwhile, greed is no good either when the mission is escape from the emotional mess the is a SM.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2022 6:31:54 GMT -5
All 15 questions in my questionnaire would be: Do You Like Sex? And it better damn well score 5 for every question. You get 15 attempts to tell me the truth. I mean, you gonna say you like it now and then pull the rug out from under my feet down the road? No? Good. Now that I know you are a sexual being, let's talk about ourselves, what we like and about our expectations. LOL...you made my morning!
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 6, 2022 22:00:48 GMT -5
capedadventurer: "where I will offer to build a house next door so she can have her "own" nest and I can have a life. " Why wouldn't you want to live your life without having her next door? Wouldn't you want your privacy? Even if you will be jointly raising children, it would be possible to do that collaboratively without living next door. How would you feel to see her dating partners (and, yes, many divorced/separated refusers have sex) or to have her see yours? You are on the mark here. My thinking is this for today anyway; the next door is 2 acres somewhat shielded , I would own it and maybe offer life estate living but she's gotta work to pay her own bills. Our oldest has 3 grandkids who love "the farm" and it "could" work. What I'm planning is a way out without alimony forever. That'd be a prison sentence as a reward for enduring emotional prison...and I can't do it.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 6, 2022 20:27:17 GMT -5
....... Your wife seems to have a lot of unresolved trauma and self esteem issues that you are powerless to do anything about—they aren’t your issues to solve. She probably isn’t going to change, and therefore neither is your situation. The only question is whether you really can face more decades like this. I agree all of the hoops etc you need to jump through are not worth 5 minutes of missionary. Can you live with no hoops and no sex at all? Usually passive aggression like your wife’s comes from a lot of buried anger and self loathing, and it’s really hard for people with PA to change. I know this because my refuser ex was PA and after years of feeling like I was going crazy, like he had some kind of secret scorecard for my behavior and I could never score high enough, I realized it was never going to change, and I ended it. I really thought that I was helping my ex by enabling all of his PA bullshit by trying to actually find my way through the constant maze of confusion he set out for me. Turns out, I wasn’t helping, protecting him, saving him, boosting his morale or anything else. He was playing me! And he seems perfectly fine without me. Regardless, I am a billion times happier with a person who actually knows how to love and wants to! Thank you nyartgal for this; perfectly stated. YES to: unresolved trauma and self esteem issues that you are powerless to do anything about—they aren’t your issues to solve. She probably isn’t going to change, and therefore neither is your situation. The only question is whether you really can face more decades like this. I agree all of the hoops etc you need to jump through are not worth 5 minutes of missionary. Can you live with no hoops and no sex at all? Usually passive aggression like your wife’s comes from a lot of buried anger and self loathing, and it’s really hard for people with PA to change. I know this because my refuser ex was PA and after years of feeling like I was going crazy, like he had some kind of secret scorecard for my behavior and I could never score high enough, I realized it was never going to change, and I ended it. And YES to me being the enabler for so long: I really thought that I was helping my ex by enabling all of his PA bullshit by trying to actually find my way through the constant maze of confusion he set out for me. Turns out, I wasn’t helping, protecting him, saving him, boosting his morale or anything else. He was playing me! And he seems perfectly fine without me. Regardless, I am a billion times happier with a person who actually knows how to love and wants to!
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 6, 2022 18:43:29 GMT -5
... I have so many plans. I want to move from our condo to an apartment in the biggest nearby city. I found a place and its expensive but the location and amenities are amazing. I can literally walk everywhere including work. It's going to be great. I want to travel and see and do all the that I've always wanted to do but she didn't. Every trip is where she wanted to go. Not anymore! If I can suggest....She's heavy on the homebody, nesting, creature comfort things My W has the same attributes with no interest in trekking too far from home and in by dark. I am sure a myriad of reasons but she does live for the banal tasks of life centered around clean floors, laundry, grocery shopping but demonstrates very little interest in anything "exciting" outside the home. I am currently liquidating assets and will remove the leverage items of a Divorce conversation, where I will offer to build a house next door so she can have her "own" nest and I can have a life. I concluded that I have been an enabler of perpetuating dysfunction which I see spreading across the children and I have to stop. I am technically in a T minus situation but action plans are still unilateral until all ducks are in a row.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 3, 2022 22:15:33 GMT -5
I just played Toby Keith's A Little Too Late in your honor! Congratulations on the great escape
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 11, 2022 22:24:35 GMT -5
So your wife has splitting (black and white lightswitch thinking) and whipsaw attachment/rejection? Favorite people she abandons due to perceived betrayal? Mistakes taken as slights?
[/quote]
YES YES YES, including her younger sister YES, everything is a slight and an attack on her value as a person, then she stands on a platform of pride as in how anyone dare mess with me and my dignity.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 9, 2022 22:34:43 GMT -5
A sign of BPD? I do enjoy conversations and interacting with others. I feel I understand what a "normal" person sounds like and behaves. Yet somehow my W is this live-in anomaly where it is just opposite land from all my other experiences. Yet I am always an oppressor or just a jerk, and pervert if sex were of interest.
In my experience we never can just have a normal conversation with ideas, thoughts, followed by an outcome or conclusion; rather a need to be right, an original idea-ist, doubt raiser but never an informed rational meeting of the minds. I do see BPD as these traits are revealed regardless of the other party, (e.g. arguing with my 12 year old whether the ice cream container was 3/5ths full or maybe 2/3rd's). I observe that kind of nonsense and realize...something is not right. Yet I had been the one trying to change to please for 3 decades. As you say Baza, it's a sh#*show regardless and no fixing it.
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Post by cagedadventurer on May 9, 2022 13:25:12 GMT -5
Good day. Can you elaborate as to her inaction as well as actions that lead you to this conclusion? I see similar with my W, but seems to derive from low self confidence and few accomplishments compared to her peers.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Apr 19, 2022 22:10:09 GMT -5
This year we will be married 24 years and I am so lonely. We have a twenty year age difference. His testosterone levels are just fine, great physical health, no issues with ED. About 10 years ago he stepped out of our marriage. He took this women out on a few dates and I found out about it. He claims he didn’t sleep with her but it really didn’t matter to me. In my eyes he did because at the end of the day he wasn’t sleeping with me. He talked about our marriage to this women and told her we weren’t having sex. I remembered laughing at him, saying you’re the one with the “not having sex with your spouses” it was never me. In the 24 years of our marriage I have never turned down sex to my husband on the rare occasion he would ask. It was normally me asking him and begging. Do you have any idea what it’s like for a women to beg a man to sleep with her. In my past relationships I never had a problem with sex and never thought in a million years this would be the type of marriage I would have. I have brought it up to my husband so many times that I don’t even mention it anymore. I remember telling him that one of these days, I won’t be crying, I won’t come to you, wanting you. Those days are here. I can’t remember when I had a real kiss. Aside from the no sex we actually have a good relationship. We get along very well, we laugh, go out, have date night etc. However, my needs haven’t been met at all in our marriage and I feel at times I want to just be with someone. To feel the weight of a man on top of me, his hands on me. The loneliness is deafening at times, sometimes it’s all I think about. I’ve even thought about stepping outside my marriage with someone who isn’t married (I don’t want to be the cause of ruining someone's marriage) Even when I type these words, “stepping outside” of my marriage pains me because that is not who I am but I feel like my husband has pushed me into that direction and I resent him for it. I’m 50, our kids are grown and I’m in the last chapter in my life. The thought of not having sex is not ok with me. I have put everyone’s needs before mine and now I want my needs met, even if that means looking outside my marriage. Withholding sex from your spouse basically during our whole marriage is one of the cruelest things you could do to a person. Needless to say, this rejection has damaged me in so many ways. terriblylonely, you have covered much in a relatively short post actually. Much of what you have shared I could as well. All was great up to the wedding day. Suddenly sex was optional until final day of the honeymoon and once our son was born, it was 8 months until she finally initiated. Thereafter only a few initiations when pregnancy was desired. And that is part of the cruelty is KNOWING they KNOW what to do and when but refusing year after year with a ridiculous number of "plausible reasons". Somehow they either cannot comprehend the damage their refusals inflict or they really cannot bring themselves to care because love is not really in their hearts. In my wife's case, I surmise she built walls as a pre-teen to protect against a hurtful, harsh mother in addition to significant fatherly rejection(s). This trait seems to prove out with most any relationship including small kids as I watch her defensiveness and overall lack of genteel. What I learned is that they cannot "give" from that which they do not have. She never shares in my work efforts or successes and is so keen on remaining in the shadows regularly threatened to leave if I ever ran for public office which I felt I might have done years ago and even today it still interests me to some degree though I enjoy my life as is - except for the sex begging of course.
I do also think of looking outside marriage though it is not an easy thing to state or write here either. Since June, I commute between WI and FL by plane and actually enjoy myself so much better without the in-house tension. When I return after a week, it is same ole'; that is her pride waiting for me to do something or become someone else. Or regular disappointment if I do not take care of her priorities.
It has been 34 years of emotional chaos and I do much better at becoming indifferent almost not caring if I ever really spend time with her again. It is a sad state of events for sure. But I like adventure, travel, new experiences, etc. none of which she has a use for. No sharing of life successes or future planning. I am 54 and I have been weening myself from the situation as I see no joy and no reason to expect it in the future. Therefore no sense in planning a joint retirement. Lastly, I say you have been amazingly patient and likely hopeful as most of us are but the frustrations remain unfortunately. This is the reality for which once accepted, you begin to navigate around.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Mar 9, 2022 23:26:02 GMT -5
and it effects me psychologically. I'm the only who drives amd is licesned so I take the kids to the doctors/dental appointment and stuff like that in addition to where ever she goes... I feel like she's cheating on me again but I have no proof. What do I do???!!! You ask What do I do?? I am concerned how you are affected psychologically and I assure you it only gets worse as you are being used and it's hardest to see or understand when you are they spouse "in it". 1- Do a few things for you asap even if you have to dig deep to remember what you even like - and don't feel guilty if it feels selfish which it will at first. 2- Watch Evan Almighty and watch how Lauren Graham's character looks at and supports her husband. Know that there is real partner material out there. 3- take a drive and listen to music taking you to places when you had hope and were excited for life. Then go see a movie by yourself and do not apologize for not being home for everyone. 4- Watch Shawshank Redemption and be inspired to conspire toward getting busy living versus your state of being busy dying inside 5- Make the plan and just do it after you've taken Baza's advice. Your W has passed the point of no return and that ship sailed. You need new hope; an impossibility under this situation.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Mar 9, 2022 0:37:43 GMT -5
You've tried everything onempty but I am sure it is as futile as pushing a rope. I bought a property near our son and his 3 kids so now I am on my own 5-7 days and up there 7-9 at a time. I keep busy with "farm work", piddle and work from home as best I can, sleep on the couch with no apology and it is not discussed, then I am back to Florida.
I see myself as weaning from the marriage without doing anything official yet because dang if I am going to continue the stressful job and pay 1/2 as alimony as additional pain for my 3 decades of torture or for the sake of an empty nest future that does not even make sense. There's no retirement fun to look forward to so I do things now, trips, events, etc. with my boys and she is content to stay home and just go through the motions of safe living. And now her dogs are a great excuse to have to stay behind. She is pleasant, makes dinners, keeps inside of house clean but that's pretty much the end of it. I cannot have a conversation that is enjoyable or stimulatingly and I cannot share too much about work or life because as is the case with most refusers, I do not feel I can trust her; our words will be used against us with a refuser. So ambiguity is my specialty. So DO take the advice here from Baza and know your options but for me I am so spent I have to break this cycle before I lose interest in all the things I barely recall being interested in including proverbial 86 degree summer days versus the 64 degree hottest summer days I get within this marriage.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Mar 7, 2022 21:34:35 GMT -5
“She never joined the marriage”. This is deep Apocrypha yet should have been obvious. I admit I never quite mentally articulated it this way. During one of our talks, my wife admitted that the evening of our wedding (probably 5 hours following our vows and we were making final preparations to head to Jamaica) that she knew this is not what she “wanted”. Never actually joining the marriage is exactly what occurred here. It explains the continual resistance to doing anything together unless kids are involved. Her sister early on surmised that we were “catdog” in honor of a cartoon from the 90’s. The character and imagery speaks for itself. The sex had been regular then the ring swap and sex was delayed until day 3 of the honeymoon. Then the spring was sprung once our first was born and sex became something NOT to do anymore. The more secure life became, house, job, cars, money, etc. the less sex was available just as ironhamster surmised.
Trips, excursions, or adventures I planned (had to plan) were typically met with quiet resistance where I once asked her why she had to always be a hostile passenger analogous to a hostile witness, not actually hostile but certainly not cooperative or too willing without significant coercion. Early on she opened her own checking account and I was a house mate that she really couldn’t run from because of my relationship with our son. I’d say the same for me but at 5 years I DID give her divorce papers with a monthly stipend telling her I had plans for life and I could not function like this anymore. She cried and agreed to get help. Same ‘ole – reset sex, get pregnant again sex but not sex for “us”. At the 15 year mark, I again told her how we were splitting up and how it would work. She again remembered how to take off her clothes and bide more time. But as was mentioned on another post "Being refused in a marriage does not compute with the brain" yet so many things she has stated over the years tells me she cannot wrap her head around why sex even needs to be part of marriage. It’s a reality of polar opposite, non-redeemable mindsets but now thinking of it as “she never joined the marriage” I need not try to pretend the marriage actually exists or existed. Still frustrating but it helps. I can sleep on the couch and she won't beg me not to. I sleep better and less frustrated and feel better not pressing to do what she has worked so diligently to avoid. I am pleasant, we carry on but I keep busy doing what I want and with the kids or my side of the family and she knows not to have any expectations on me and it's okay for me to have my emotional wall up now. She reinforces daily that she'd rather forfeit all the benefits of a solid marriage in order to avoid touch. It must be important to her so I'll respect it until I move on.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 12, 2021 1:39:15 GMT -5
Carl, I actually agree with your sentiments which could describe my own W quite well. Though she'll oblige, she's just maintaining status quo. Your snarky remarks personally directed to well meaning, experienced men of wisdom are what my post was about. You do not converse well without getting defensive or snarky. Otherwise, yes I've seen them go off sex...HOWEVER it is fascinating to watch how many go "back on" when it suits them.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Nov 10, 2021 4:17:08 GMT -5
Thank you deadzone75 for the clarity of what is really happening due to what is not happening."Being refused in a marriage does not compute with the brain"....brilliant and thank you!
I used to wonder the same thing: am I depressed because my brain is out of whack, or is it an eternity of refusal? Is my brain out of whack that much because I don't have sex? Do I really hate my job this much, or am I bitter and seething and blinded from my failed M? Do I really hate that couple walking down the street holding hands? That question will only be answered when you break away from the oppression, that much I know. I'm out of my SM now, but I still worry...a lot. I'm worrying right now. But you know what I don't have to worry about? Not getting sex or intimacy in any way, shape or form. Not that I'm scoring, but because I don't have the expectation to worry about. Granted, for many in a long-running SM, expectations are out the window. Except they aren't, not inside our minds. Being refused in a M does not compute with the brain. What refusers do defies the law, defies reason and logic, human behavior, basic needs.
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