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Post by njsojourner on Oct 3, 2021 14:34:17 GMT -5
Maybe this is somewhere else and if so, I apologize, but I have been wondering what goes through the mind of those spouses who refuse/withhold sex? I wish some were on here and would share their experiences/thoughts. I know what some of us who have been refused sex say what their spouses say/think but it would be interesting to hear from the actual refuseniks themselves unfiltered by those living in sexless hell.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 3, 2021 16:02:16 GMT -5
Maybe this is somewhere else and if so, I apologize, but I have been wondering what goes through the mind of those spouses who refuse/withhold sex? I wish some were on here and would share their experiences/thoughts. I know what some of us who have been refused sex say their spouses say/think but it would be interesting to hear from the actual refuseniks themselves unfiltered by those living in sexless hell. In the case of my ex-H he didn’t intentionally withhold sex I don’t think. It was more of a case that he simply forgot it existed at all. He seemed confused and disorientated when I raised the topic like he was trying to remember what the concept was all about. In terms of his refusal- he probably believed his own BS excuses. Bottom line was he had zero libido, sex was forgotten and unimportant to him when reminded. The significant bit was that he knew this made me unhappy, and my feelings were also unimportant to him, as all was well in his world. Thus, it was not worth his while to go out of his way to put that motorbike magazine down for half an hour to put out and make his Mrs happy. It’s on me that I just kept making his world wonderful.
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Post by Handy on Oct 3, 2021 17:50:53 GMT -5
NJsojourner, there are posts by spouses that were sexual interested in their spouse but lost the desire for sex. seekinganswers posted not having sexual feelings towards her H You have to read the oldest posts first. iliasm.org/user/1297/recentsunniedays talks about breast cancer killing her sex drive. Again, read the oldests post first. iliasm.org/user/449/recent
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Post by baza on Oct 3, 2021 20:52:27 GMT -5
There's not a lot of content in here written by refuser spouses, so there isn't a real lot of information about - "what goes through the mind of those spouses who refuse/withhold sex". And, of the few examples that there are (like Brother Handy linked) they may or may not be being truthful. And in truth, when you get down to the core problem, the reasons for sexual refusal don't actually matter a real lot. Whatever the reason (or the "why") might be, you are still equally disenfranchised. So any reason/why is pretty much as good as another. The fact that you are disenfranchised is important - vitally important. "Why" you are being disenfranchised, not so much.
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Post by Handy on Oct 3, 2021 22:52:42 GMT -5
I found another refuser's 3 posts. It boils down to the inability to feel pleasure,
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 4, 2021 13:31:42 GMT -5
Maybe this is somewhere else and if so, I apologize, but I have been wondering what goes through the mind of those spouses who refuse/withhold sex? I wish some were on here and would share their experiences/thoughts. I know what some of us who have been refused sex say their spouses say/think but it would be interesting to hear from the actual refuseniks themselves unfiltered by those living in sexless hell. When I was the refuser in a serious relationship, prior to marriage, I felt that I loved my partner and feared the end of the relationship and the benefits it brought. I loved my partner but did not feel "all in". I feared losing the person I loved. So did she. For a period of a few years even prior to that relationship (in my twenties, at peak testosterone), I was "funny" about sex, developing odd habits. I was a generous and skillful lover when I meant to be, but I felt that completion of the sexual act on my end of it would somehow sign me up for something I wasn't quite ready to commit to. Like I was promising something I couldn't really deliver. This feeling extended for a few years. It made it worse when my free-spirited girlfriend posed a "let's move in together or break up" ultimatum to me. "it's just moving in together," she said. But for me, it was a marriage I hadn't signed onto yet. I did it anyway. We reached sexless crisis with me as the refuser. Tears, threats, why? I went away on a corporate retreat for a few days and on the way back on a long highway ride, I noticed a feeling that I had. A feeling that I was looking forward to coming home and couldn't wait to see her. And instead of seeing her as a door shutting on the possibility of everything else, I looked at her as the door opening to a whole new world. I fell in love with her again when I already loved her. But I didn't love her like THIS. She became home, the world - everything. I was all in. I asked her to marry me later that year and she said "yes" Things changed pretty quickly. Then on the wedding that night, and again on the honeymoon, we traded positions. She was now the refuser. We were never really in synch. It's funny, when I read the wedding speeches we both wrote, given the day our dysfunction and tension returned. Mine was full of admiration for her chutzpah and many qualities. Hers was about how she'd never wanted to get married - and to this day she still poses it as a self-evident compliment to me - that if she had to get married the only person she'd ever be married to was me. But it's never posed - even then - that she actually wanted to be married to me. That aversion to sex with me, in the circumstance of marriage - unfolded across the span of a decade, gradually intensifying the more trapped she felt. Eventually she had an affair, and justified it to herself as discovering that she did indeed have a libido and that this hero- her affair partner - had helped her discover it. I think that celibacy within a relationship is almost always evidence of a failure to buy in. Either to the person, or to the responsibility of the relationship. Like, sex with your captor might feel like it legitimizes something you know to be wrong.
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Post by njsojourner on Oct 4, 2021 18:37:01 GMT -5
Thanks for this post. Clearly, there are many reasons for refusing. You have provided a very different perspective. I hadn’t thought of it in the terms you put—a failure or inability to buy in. Sometimes I have heard people say it’s a power dynamic, sometimes they just fell out of love (or romantic love), sometimes it’s physical issues, and sometimes they have no idea why they no longer want sex with their partner.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 5, 2021 9:43:47 GMT -5
Thanks for this post. Clearly, there are many reasons for refusing. You have provided a very different perspective. I hadn’t thought of it in the terms you put—a failure or inability to buy in. Sometimes I have heard people say it’s a power dynamic, sometimes they just fell out of love (or romantic love), sometimes it’s physical issues, and sometimes they have no idea why they no longer want sex with their partner. At the time, I was not able to articulate my problem in such a clear way, despite many conversations with her about it. It should be noted - I did have a libido. I watched porn and had "personal" outlets as normal. These were not the cause of my aversion with her. There were times when I was especially randy, and on those occasions I initiated sex or didn't have an excuse. I still felt like I was having sex with my captor at the time though, signing onto something I couldn't follow through with. I'd suggest that people here would characterize that as "reset" sex. For me, it was more like I was horny - but not necessarily for HER in the context of our partnership. It all went away as soon as I jumped onboard the marriage train - when I embraced my relationship with her fully. When I joined. Funny enough - I've seen this happen the other way in my post marriage life. Often people who - themselves - have commitment issues - will seek out unavailable partners. Think of women who fall for gay guys or lotharios, for example. When it doesn't work out, they can blame the partner or the arrangement they helped build. This is why it's probably helpful when in a celibate deal to check oneself - even if you are the abandoned spouse. Mrs Apocrypha could EASILY have born some responsibility in chasing me for a couple years prior to marriage when I was ambivalent toward her advances. I'm suggesting that she chased me because I was was ambivalent, rather than in spite of it. The moment I ruined it by asking her to marry me and totally going for it with her, she said "yes" but pushed away.
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Post by Handy on Oct 5, 2021 11:47:26 GMT -5
Apocrypha, I can relate to being horny but thinking that having sex with a GF implies a lasting commitment that you were not certain that it you wanted a long term commitment or were thinking it would not work out long term. At one time I was the one holding back on my sexuality because I could not see the relationship working well in the next 5 years. My reluctance was mostly a financial restraint on my part. I knew it took a certain level of finance to make the romance work. I didn't have the finance part worked out.
I am guessing some people avoie sexual activities to prevent pregnancies and the expense and work of raising more kids but avoid talking about it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 5, 2021 12:40:23 GMT -5
Apocrypha, I can relate to being horny but thinking that having sex with a GF implies a lasting commitment that you were not certain that it you wanted a long term commitment or were thinking it would not work out long term. At one time I was the one holding back on my sexuality because I could not see the relationship working well in the next 5 years. My reluctance was mostly a financial restraint on my part. I knew it took a certain level of finance to make the romance work. I didn't have the finance part worked out.
I am guessing some people avoie sexual activities to prevent pregnancies and the expense and work of raising more kids but avoid talking about it.
Once deep into the celibate marriage game, the same thinking can end up spreading into other areas of intimacy. For example, no kissing, no cuddling, no unnecessary touching (this is actually a big tell) - because they don't want to "lead anyone on". The common thread in all of these is a lack of presence and commitment in the relationship. The partner is absent or is pushing away.
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Post by Handy on Oct 5, 2021 21:39:45 GMT -5
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 7, 2021 19:03:11 GMT -5
Once deep into the celibate marriage game, the same thinking can end up spreading into other areas of intimacy. For example, no kissing, no cuddling, no unnecessary touching (this is actually a big tell) - because they don't want to "lead anyone on". The common thread in all of these is a lack of presence and commitment in the relationship. The partner is absent or is pushing away. Mrs. Mirrororchid over the past three weeks has taken to flipping over from her cell phone to kiss me goodnight with what sure feels like passion and I've been pleased to respond in kind. She confessed worry that arousal was unpleasant for me, but I told her that I knew full well she doesn't seem to gather desire in as little as a week and had no expectation she would yet. A reversal of your buy-in hypothesis is an interesting possibility of "why chasing" for the sudden spike in intimacy, if not sex. (which has stayed at the same much higher level than in the past.) It may have been a heartfelt appreciation for a trip I planned for us that we just finished and she's wanted for a very long time but did not plan herself. (clinical depression can make such planning daunting.) Was it the anticipation of the trip that got her grateful for my efforts? Don't want to jinx it.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 7, 2021 19:12:24 GMT -5
I had some luck searching reddit's dead bedroom forums. Just one example: www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/8w7akb/how_i_we_fixed_my_dead_bedroom/
I laid it out for her. We will agree that our marriage requires intimacy and sex, and we will COMMIT to scheduling it. That requires being intimate a certain number of times per week. We settled on two times per week (but start with whatever works best for you).
I MUST initiate once on either Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday. She MUST initiate once on either Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. When the other partner initiates, there is NO REJECTION. You must initiate during your days. Saturday is a "bonus" day, and if both of us are up for it we do it.
Her affection (touch, kissing, etc) has come back in a big way...and this is important for me as it is my #1 love language. She admitted (after starting this) that she would hold back affection because every time she touched me or kissed me (real kiss) I would try to turn that into sex. But now that it is off of the table (either being her days or I've already initiated on my days), she knows it won't turn into my trying to have sex.
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Post by csl on Oct 8, 2021 7:30:20 GMT -5
I had some luck searching reddit's dead bedroom forums. Just one example: www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/8w7akb/how_i_we_fixed_my_dead_bedroom/
I laid it out for her. We will agree that our marriage requires intimacy and sex, and we will COMMIT to scheduling it. That requires being intimate a certain number of times per week. We settled on two times per week (but start with whatever works best for you).
I MUST initiate once on either Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday. She MUST initiate once on either Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. When the other partner initiates, there is NO REJECTION. You must initiate during your days. Saturday is a "bonus" day, and if both of us are up for it we do it.
Her affection (touch, kissing, etc) has come back in a big way...and this is important for me as it is my #1 love language. She admitted (after starting this) that she would hold back affection because every time she touched me or kissed me (real kiss) I would try to turn that into sex. But now that it is off of the table (either being her days or I've already initiated on my days), she knows it won't turn into my trying to have sex.
Sounds like someone was accessing the Di Lorenzos over at One Extraordinary Marriage. The 2x a week initiation, one from each spouse, was the key for turning the Di Lorenzo marriage around, and Wife and I used it, back in 2011 to restart our bed. The early series "The Why and How of our Now" on my blog explains how that worked for us. csl
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 8, 2021 16:09:59 GMT -5
Once deep into the celibate marriage game, the same thinking can end up spreading into other areas of intimacy. For example, no kissing, no cuddling, no unnecessary touching (this is actually a big tell) - because they don't want to "lead anyone on". The common thread in all of these is a lack of presence and commitment in the relationship. The partner is absent or is pushing away. Mrs. Mirrororchid over the past three weeks has taken to flipping over from her cell phone to kiss me goodnight with what sure feels like passion and I've been pleased to respond in kind. She confessed worry that arousal was unpleasant for me, but I told her that I knew full well she doesn't seem to gather desire in as little as a week and had no expectation she would yet. A reversal of your buy-in hypothesis is an interesting possibility of "why chasing" for the sudden spike in intimacy, if not sex. (which has stayed at the same much higher level than in the past.) It may have been a heartfelt appreciation for a trip I planned for us that we just finished and she's wanted for a very long time but did not plan herself. (clinical depression can make such planning daunting.) Was it the anticipation of the trip that got her grateful for my efforts? Don't want to jinx it. When I was sexually averse, I did get naturally horny once in a while. I still got tangled in my thinking about the range of not wishing to commit totally though, so I managed to hold something back.
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