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Post by seekinganswers on Mar 28, 2019 8:34:17 GMT -5
Everything and anything by Esther Perel. Mating in Captivity is one of her books, and she has a TED talk you can find on YouTube. I’ve watched basically all her interviews and listened to all the podcasts (the woman appears in my dreams haha), you can’t go wrong with anything you find of her.
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Post by seekinganswers on Mar 8, 2019 8:26:26 GMT -5
I find it to be a really warm, welcoming gesture on his part. @rockandroll, if you’re somehow offended by it you can always ask him directly to not use the term with you. I’m sure he’s deduced as much from your comment, but my guess is he’d happily oblige.
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Post by seekinganswers on Feb 4, 2019 6:37:00 GMT -5
Wow, thank you guys so much. What you’ve said really resonates with me to the point of tears. Probably because I know deep down what you’re saying is the truth.
Elle, first congrats on your new found freedom and happiness! That’s so amazing and inspiring. You articulated how I feel better than I could about tiptoeing around the elephant in the room and just living a farce. It’s such an uncomfortable way to live, and a terrible example for my son. Ugh. It’s definitely a process for me to understand putting myself first, it’s not my instinct. But I get it, and I get how it can make me a better parent in the long run. I’m glad you said that when it’s time I’ll know, I’m not quite there. There’s just so much to weigh. I wonder if I can ever be as brave as you guys are..
Thank you!!
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Post by seekinganswers on Jan 31, 2019 12:53:08 GMT -5
Hi all, it’s your resident refuser here 😊 I haven’t made any hard decisions about my deal and am still trying to work through everything...so no real update to share unfortunately. But I wanted to reach out to you all with a question: can those of you who divorced with young children just tell your story of how that went and how they are now? My son is 7, and I am so stuck when it comes to considering divorce and the impact it would have on him. I’m in a low conflict marriage, so I can’t fall back on him being better off if we divorced. I think he must pick up on things to a certain degree, but for the most part my husband and I get along well as far as what my son sees. I’d love your insight.
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Post by seekinganswers on Sept 1, 2018 8:50:23 GMT -5
Thanks, baza. What you said really struck a chord. I definitely have an issue with putting my needs out there. Certainly with putting my needs first. I realized I have codependent tendencies in my last relationship with the narcissistic/borderline guy (my personal diagnosis of both). That was the most severe example, but I can look back and see how I haven’t put my needs first. I haven’t had a strong sense of self. I’m super laid back, was always a good kid, got good grades, did what was expected of me, etc. But I can see how there’s something deeper going on. I started to read an article on codependency that greatcoastal posted. I need to go back and finish it, but there was a part about being a good baby and not crying for your needs. This was so me. And to the idea of this thread- the example my mom set was to put others needs first. So it’s already an uncomfortable notion to put my needs first, made even more difficult by the fact that this is all based on my own feelings. My own mistakes. There is no one to blame but myself. No one is treating me badly, disrespecting me, creating a toxic environment for my son. I’d be causing so many people pain merely based on my own selfish needs. But I hear time and time again what you said, baza. The advice is always to put your own oxygen mask on first, so to speak. At the same time, there are people in my life and on here, like @choosinghappy, who have such a strong sense of self and honor their needs. And I’m always like, hell yeah. Good for you. That’s how it should be. I admire that so much. I can see that for others, but somehow not myself. I feel like I’m rambling, but I’m just putting all this together. Thanks baza.
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Post by seekinganswers on Sept 1, 2018 7:42:20 GMT -5
@shynjdude, happy to hear your daughter is okay. What a scare. Hope you get some sleep!
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 31, 2018 16:14:21 GMT -5
It’s interesting to hear all the different back stories. Past relationships is another big influence, I know it was for me. I asked the question partly out of curiosity and partly because I’ve been wrestling with the idea of what is better for my son, under my particular circumstances. I definitely understand situations where it is far better for the kids to divorce. And despite so much advice against staying for the kids, I’m still not sure that applies to me. I wonder if the benefits of staying together outweigh the benefits of leaving for my son. We have a peaceful, respectful home. We have fun together as a family unit. I know I’ll never be slow dancing in the living room with my husband, but if we can get to a point where we either accept our deal or get to a more fulfilling place I think he won’t be seeing totally unhappy parents. Even now, he sees us happy. I’m happy around him. Actually, that’s the other piece. Staying for him is sort of staying for myself too, because I want that stability for him. I just don’t know if I’d have the assurance that this is better for him in the long run. If I felt that, I can see leaving a bit clearer.
In all of this, also in the work I’m doing with my husband, I’m wrestling with the question of: what is the line between honoring my vows/ making sacrifices and compromises/ being the best parent I can be, and betraying myself/ living for other people/ robbing myself of a fulfilling life.
I honestly don’t know what is selfish. Is it selfish to stay? Selfish to leave? I want to do what’s best for my husband and my son, even more than myself, and I don’t even know what that is.
And before I get pounced on, I’m not saying any of this DESPITE what my husband thinks and feels. I’ve been very transparent lately and we’ve had some really honest and open conversations. I’m just trying to figure out where I stand. The back and forth is exhausting...
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 21, 2018 22:54:02 GMT -5
How many of us here are children of parents who were in a SM? Have there been other posts about this (or even a baza poll??) I’ve seen it mentioned here quite a few times. 🙋🏼♀️ Me, for one. I actually didn’t put it all together until about a year ago when I opened up to my mom and sister about how I’m feeling about my marriage. In true fashion I was having a hard time getting the words out, and I said something like, “I’m trying to open up to you guys about something but I’m having a hard time.” And she said, “I know.” I was confused at first because I thought I was successfully putting a smile on the whole time. (A mother’s intuition is fascinating.) But, she went on to say, I know because I lived it. She said that she almost talked to me before I got married and was very conflicted about it. But that ultimately there was so much happiness and excitement at that time, and it’s all so personal, that she decided not to. My husband is also a great guy and gets along with my family really well. I guess it was hard for her to know at that point too. I wonder if I would have even listened. Or have been angry even? Hard to say. Once she explained her story and her decision to stay, I saw their marriage so differently than I ever had. I also saw the clear parallels to my marriage. I think I only subliminally picked up on it growing up - I don’t remember noticing anything overtly. They are both kind, loving people who always showed each other respect and who have always been very compatible. But I can see now that they lacked affection. However - my sister is in a relationship that basically only has passion going for it, and my brother and his girlfriend are very affectionate and have a great well rounded relationship. So who knows, I guess. But is there acorrelation for many of you here?
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 3, 2018 5:59:53 GMT -5
If I may tiptoe in on this conversation… I in no way underestimate the pain that is caused by being refused by your husband or wife. There is an innocence inherent to the refused because it was the refuser that initially pulled away and caused that pain. I know for me, it was my failure when I turned away instead of facing it head on when I first started feeling the disconnect. That is on me, along with a heavy weight of knowing I’m responsible for the problem in our marriage in terms of it being my emotions that set this ball rolling. At this point though, I think a dynamic has been created by our mutual avoidance of the issue. That said, I do think it’s a bit unfair to assume that a refuser is supposed to have this all figured out before he or she even gets married, and have perfect clarity on the situation when new feelings and realizations emerge, and throughout the process. Being a refuser doesn’t mean that we don’t have the same ability to stick our heads in the sand. To want to avoid conflict, to blame life events, to lie to ourselves, to need time for introspection, to be completely confused about what we even want, to hope things will change, to want to keep the peace, to be in denial, to feel paralyzed by it, to be depressed. The FOG. All things that I’ve heard many of you say and that I’m sure you can relate to. These things pull us away from the marriage, but they are not necessarily manipulative and selfish as it is sometimes automatically assumed here. Of course, in some cases there certainly is manipulation. Like shamwow, jeez. That stuff is crazy. And there are so many different scenarios and types of refusers. But some of the fireballs sent my way have suggested I am manipulative and selfish merely based on the fact that I am a refuser. People like beachguy point to the idea that I’m “unwilling to do the one thing that can solve it”. It’s just not that simple for everyone. It’s really not. Maybe if you’re zoomed waaaay out and standing where you stand. But not when you’re tangled in it. Like when someone said, well you should have told him before you got married. Of course. Me ten years later with a butt-ton ( DryCreek, you made it a thing) of introspection is on it. And that would have been for both of us, not just him. Some of you have gone years or decades until you’ve come to understand and stand up for how you feel. We’re not necessarily so different. I’m struggling in a marriage that is incompatible, struggling to make sense of it all, and battling a lot of heavy emotions. What I know now is that it boils down to being completely and utterly transparent about how you feel, and allowing your partner to make his or her own decisions based on the truth. That goes for everyone.
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 3, 2018 5:49:01 GMT -5
timeforliving2, thank you so much for weighing in on my situation and for all the valuable insight. I appreciate the concrete references you forwarded. I only have the Love Languages book out of everything you recommended, so I’ll look into everything else. You also asked some very direct questions that I don’t have clear answers for, but it will be a good exercise for me to try to answer them. It’s all so complicated and overwhelming. There are the very real, fair warnings from northstarmom and @tooyoungtobeold and others here, paired with your story of hope. I have some more soul searching to do. It's crazy you bring up the analogy of cancer. My therapist said the exact same thing in my individual session yesterday. We haven't been able to get in for a couples session in awhile, and I was defending my husband because he's been so busy with work, which is at least partly true because he's actually out of town a lot. But she said the same thing, if he had cancer he would find the time for treatment. And that he needs to understand the urgency of the situation, which is my job to express. So that makes me feel better about her as our therapist based on your warnings. I think I've grown with her personally, but there's only so much she can do when we don't talk. Also, I'm turning 40 this spring, and it would be great to not enter a new decade of life under these conditions...there's a pretty clear deadline for me.
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 1, 2018 7:06:41 GMT -5
I even get a vote, baza ?! Ha. Thank you. Thanks to all for keeping the insights coming, and for the actual words I can use from DryCreek . That really is the nutshell of the situation. I totally understand how this can go on and on for decades. Denial is a crazy thing. And FOG (haven’t heard this term greatcoastal , interesting), for some refusers as well. It's the perfect term because it really does cloud things. I think for that to lift for me, I need to see if there's anything else I can do. I know my attraction problem may be at my core, but I don’t feel like we’ve done all the trying we could do. What we’ve been doing to this point can’t be considered trying. It would start from here with conversation. Maybe it would be for not, as I’ve heard a lot of you say. Part of me does accept that reality. To answer your questions (I’ll try my best to incorporate them all…) I have had strong sexual chemistry with someone before. It was with the person I dated right before getting back together with my husband when we got married (my husband and I dated on and off starting in college). It was a really unhealthy relationship, narcissistic type guy. The highs were really high and the lows really low. It was passionate with a lot of great sex, but he was manipulative and well, an asshole, and I dodged that bullet in the nth hour. I think that may have fed into marrying my husband a bit, who is the opposite of him. Like, look what passion did for me. I started dating my husband at 21, with a couple relationships during the break up periods. I enjoyed sex more so in those relationships, but I can’t say I truly explored my sexuality with them. Reflecting back, I feel like I aimed to please and didn’t put myself out there for my own pleasure as much as I should have. I did with the a-hole, and I was much more playful and open with him. But with my husband, I was much more reserved. I didn’t do the initiating. I’m not sure where my mind was during the time of getting pregnant, probably very excited. I don’t remember that translating to better sex necessarily. It was really fast for us, I think it was only a month or two before I got pregnant. But I feel like more than ever, perhaps because of the deprivation, I’m coming to understand myself as a sexual being. I would love to explore my sexuality more (beyond masturbation, yes). If I do end up divorced, it would likely be a sexual revolution of sorts for me. I want that kind of connection again, not only sexual but romantic, intimate connection as well. I don’t have a great answer as to how I’ve been coping with the impossibility of getting that with my husband. It’s a big pill to swallow. Maybe because we are the king and queen of avoidance. Maybe because that point has existed within a jumble of confusion. But if I can improve things with him, maybe I can still experience some exploration. I know I’d ever have it to a level I could with someone I have more natural sexual chemistry with, but maybe it can get to a point where it’s fulfilling enough for both of us. Sounds unlikely based on the collective experience here. Is there anyone on here who did come back from this? Any threads to share on that? I guess if they’re better, they’re not on here anymore… shamwow, northstarmom - I'm a good mother. Please don't take that away from me on top of it all. I'm aware of what you're saying, I've spent some therapy time on the issue. I'm not worried about it.
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Post by seekinganswers on Jul 31, 2018 16:48:19 GMT -5
Wow. This was A LOT to take in, but exactly what I was hoping for when I decided to walk into this lion's den and post here. Direct, honest, wise, challenging input and advice. Boy are you all delivering! As brutal as it is, I'm really grateful for this dialogue and am learning and growing from it. I even uttered a few “wow”s out loud as I was reading through. Tears are streaming. There are so many points taken. @choosinghappiness, thank you for your kind reply. Your circumstance does sound similar. I really admire your strength. flashjohn, thank you for recognizing that I didn’t see this as an issue when I was getting married. I think it’s easy to think from where we stand now, that I should have known these things then. I admire those of you who had it all figured out before you got married, but sadly that wasn’t me. I couldn’t have given him a choice back then because I wasn’t aware of it. There was no intention of manipulation or hiding of anything, because I didn’t have it to hide at that point. I’ve definitely done a “metric butt-ton” ( DryCreek) of introspection since. My understanding of myself and of marriage is so much deeper now. My shortcomings are crystal clear, trust me. I actually think my bigger mistake was turning away from it when these feelings started to emerge. It needed to be nurtured and worked on immediately. I failed there. One thing I want to mention is, I haven’t left my husband totally in the dark about this. I need to be much more candid than I have been, I know I tend to pad my words in hope to soften them. I know that isn’t helping. But I have expressed the way I feel for a few years now. In those moments he hears that he feels like a friend/ coparent to me. That I don’t feel connected to him beyond that. And obviously he’s aware we haven’t had sex in many years… Therapy was my doing – he never mentions it unless I ask to schedule it. If I never mention it again, I feel like he never would. We would go on forever like this – I think he just doesn’t want to face it. He is an eternal optimist and sees this as a phase, and that it will get better. We’ve had about 6 sessions and every time he goes right back to pretending that nothing is wrong, nothing happened. Same with any other conversation we’ve had in the past. It makes me feel a little crazy sometimes, like did he not hear me? But I don’t say anything either. I don’t pretend that everything is peachy, but I also don’t address things I should address. baza, you’re totally right that he is not as far down the path as me. I need to be more candid, and he needs to be more honest with himself. And we both need to put forth more effort if there is any chance of things getting better. I hear a lot of you feeling like that is not possible at this point. But I do wonder. Like for example, I completely see what a lot of you are saying about the whole topic of feminism/ duty and how it relates to vows. (@ihadalove, thank you for sharing your thread. It was really interesting to read through that as well as everyone’s posts here on the topic.) It’s a mindset I haven’t had, but I do wonder what flipping that mindset would do for me. Along with more conversation and effort. Or maybe I’m just holding on to anything because this is fucking brutal and the reality is UGLY. I understand it’s clear from your point of view, but there’s so much going on in my head. So many moving parts, so much sadness. But I know where to start, with a candid conversation. THANK YOU.
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Post by seekinganswers on Jul 30, 2018 22:26:44 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! That made me laugh.) @workingonit, this struck a chord: "being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years." As did your comment about kids picking up on more than you think. So true. Confirmed by beachguy, which totally made me tear up. I could personally never have an open marriage, but I can see an amiable divorce that puts my son’s needs first. I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. He's traveling these next few days, but I'll talk to him when he gets back and start there. bballgirl - I'm so glad you mentioned that book, Mating in Captivity. I heard about it awhile back and it sounded interesting, but I haven't read it yet. It will be the next book I read. shamwow - without this turning into a post about feminism, it was an interesting challenge you presented. I think we agree more than we disagree. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? At any rate, if you don't consider that an aspect of feminism, then perhaps it's at least an off shoot, or empowerment stemming from feminism. I imagine you can see the connection. I do think it's a bit of stretch to say I entered the marriage dishonestly though. I think we all wish we could have known then what we know now. Thank you all so much. Truly.
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Post by seekinganswers on Jul 30, 2018 9:46:56 GMT -5
Hi all, I just registered and have been reading through many of the posts which I am finding really helpful, thank you. Still, I'm not sure I'm in the right place because I read enough to wonder if I'll be booed out of here as I am technically a "refuser". But I have to say, I relate so much to a lot of what is said here. There is some really sage advice from you all, and I'm hoping that you can understand where I'm coming from and give me your two cents on my situation. My mind is such a jumbled mess, I don't even know where to begin. Here's my story:
I have been married for 9 years and have an amazing 7 year old son. My husband and I have been totally sexless for about 4 years now, but I think we'd qualify as sexless in terms of frequency since the conception of my son. And likely before trying to conceive, but it's hard to say. We never had a strong sexual connection. And that is where I can see, from where I stand now, that I underestimated the importance of that connection in my decision to marry him. There were so many wonderful things about him that made me want to marry him and have a family with him - and I was right about all of them. He's kind, hardworking, and a great father. I think I was so driven by the idea of having children (I got married at 30 and was feeling very ready for children at that point), that I wasn't seeing that part (the romantic/sexual part) of our relationship clearly. This is my first fuck up. I was definitely aware, but I was not understanding the importance.
After the birth of my son, I would say it was among the happiest times of my life. But all in terms of being a mom, and a family. When it came time to remember my name again, and to connect as husband and wife, I started to feel the disconnect. But of course I blamed having a baby, then a toddler, then me, then this, or that. We took some trips, date nights, I read some books, etc. None of that was helping. I just plain saw him as a friend. It wasn't just the sex. It was any romantic connection. Here comes my second major fuck up. I didn't communicate well about it. Not even to myself. I tried to pretend that it wasn't happening. I couldn't face it. I hid from it, from him. I would fall asleep in my son's room so that I didn't have to feel him touch my body when I didn't want him to. And to hurt him. I know it's so so painful to be on the other side of that, when you get refused. It's also a rather violating feeling to have someone touch you when you don't want them to. If that was something I could control, trust me I would. But I'm feminist enough to not feel the need to have sex with someone to be a dutiful wife. I know he, men, don't even want that. And my husband hid too. We had very little communication for a long while. We proceeded as great coparents and roommates, and that's about it.
So after a few years of this, I started to come to terms with the severity of the problem and started therapy. I had a hard time finding a match for me and for us (including finding one I loved and him passing away after a few sessions, which is so sad and just my luck). About a year ago I started seeing a therapist who has been really helpful. She sees me individually and both of us together. Through therapy, and even a bit through this forum, I started to see that it wasn't just our dynamic. He was, is, really hurt and sad as well. We both win for the worst communicators ever, my therapist is floored. Even with therapy, we only talk about things in the therapy office and go right back to pretending it's not a grave issue. Anyone peering in on our lives would think we have it really good. And in a lot of ways we do. But both my husband and I are incredibly sad inside. I feel like I freeze rather than communicate because what I have to say is so hurtful. I have been clear about how I feel over the years, but I'm learning that my silence on an every day basis is just as hurtful.
For me, it's not that I don't need or want sex/ intimacy. I do. Sometimes desperately. I just don't feel the connection with my husband. And it's not the same for him. He wants that with me. It was far easier when it felt like our dynamic, and it felt like something I could potentially sustain for our son. But to know that I'm hurting my husband so much in this marriage, and if I leave I'll hurt my son so much... What do I do with that? Well, we'd all be hurt by me leaving. I feel like I've been living for my son, and honestly would. He's my world. And because our marriage is low conflict, my son isn't affected negatively by it. He isn't seeing a loving romantic relationship, but my husband and I are compatible and nice to each other in all ways non-romantic. But I don't know how much longer this can go on. I don't think my husband would ever say that he wants out, despite me being clear about how I feel. He's optimistic things will change. But they aren't. And I don't know if there's anything I can do to change how I feel. I feel like an absolute failure. Not only to myself, but to people I love the most in the world.
What can I do?
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