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Post by shamwow on Apr 3, 2018 8:17:06 GMT -5
If the expectations are not clear, then it is both of your fault. If he sets boundaries that are unacceptable to you (he gets to set some too) then it is not his fault. It is your choice. Likewise if you set boundaries he chooses not to respect it is his choice. Note the difference between "choice" and "fault" here. Until the boundaries are clearly stated and both sides understand them and agree to respect them there is fault. Once things are clearly laid out and agreed to, not living up to one's end is a choice. And choices have consequences. It is wise to discuss what the consequences are too so nobody is caught by surprise. shamwow and baza - this boundary advice is so helpful and valuable. In my childhood my mother didn’t overstep my boundaries- they weren’t even allowed to exist. And my Dad played peacekeeper, encouraging me to back down whenever I protested a serious infraction. Thus boundaries for me are murky and blurry. I think part of me believes I’ll be rewarded by giving in. H learned to disregard boundaries from his mom who could make an Olympic sport of it. The two of us certainly have a big challenge ahead of us if we’re going to establish healthy boundaries at this late stage in the game. Working for us is the fact that a divorce would have a big financial impact for him. He’d be hard pressed to find another partner who would work so hard at building a healthy relationship. Working against us is his ingrained attitude of contempt and criticism and an adversarial stance. And the fact that it’s really hard to communicate with him. I think I’m going to do some work on my boundaries. And then find a good time and manner to explain them to him. I’ve still got a lot to process and internalize with understanding my boundaries. Listening to what I want. What I need and what I demand of a partner. "Working for us is the fact that a divorce would have a big financial impact for him. He’d be hard pressed to find another partner who would work so hard at building a healthy relationship." What makes you think he is interested in a healthy relationship? Sounds like he doesn't even know what one looks like. Respectfully, it sounds like you might not either from your past. I sure as hell didn't until I met ballofconfusion. And on finances? My divorce cost me about 300k. 240k of that writing a check. Life finds a way.
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Reset?
Apr 3, 2018 8:30:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by greatcoastal on Apr 3, 2018 8:30:59 GMT -5
I want to ,again, highly recommend the book " Boundaries in Marriage".
I took that book with me on one of my then w's reset vacations with all 6 of the children. I soaked it up like a spounge! I highlighted and folded back 90% of the pages.
I also remember calling an old H.S. friend that night, standing outside in a Fl. Lightning storm and seriously talking suicide. My w was being that cold, evasive, and controlling. ( my friend was there for me. He had gone through a similar divorce)
The first chapter defines and addresses what it's like to set boundaries when dealing with a " manipulative controller". (I cant quote it, I loaned my book away) I rember the words" they will run over your boundaries like a tank"
Boundaries are meaningless without consequences. That to me was one of the biggest issues in our marriage and final years of raising the teens.
My ex would constantly critizise my consequences. Telling me that I was angry, they are not going to work, you cant do anything about it anyways.. etc.."
During therapy I came to realize that my ex was good at setting boundaries. A very management oriented person. A good arm chair quarterback. Controlling with words and money, but very little backing of consequences and praise. Hardly any in her actions and words.
She definitely had HER boundaries. Most every reply of hers starts with the word "NO". HER BOUNDARIES WHERE LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE . A ONE WAY STREET PAVED WITH DOUBLE STANDARDS. Others boundaries where meaningless.
To this day my kids use the excuse " so and so says you get angry". The next time I here that "avoidance tactic" I am going to use it as a learning experience. I will ask " what did I do or say that showed I was angry? What was done to me or someone else that could have made me angry? Do you get angry about things when people do wrong? Do you like it when someone holds that against you for years, and won't admit that what they did was wrong and woukd make anyone angry? Are there plenty of things that I could be angry about that your brothers or sisters do to me? Do I forgive them and love them unconditionally? ( yes I do, and they need to learn that)
There is still a lot more restoring to do. It will be easier to do without a manipulative controller involved. Hope this helps.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Apr 3, 2018 8:49:16 GMT -5
elynne - you would make a great counselor for him, in the event he says he’d like to work towards changing his attachment style. Is that your obligation? No. You would make a great parent to him, too. Is that your job? No. I’m not sure anyone could make a great partner to him because it doesn’t sound like he knows what “partnering” actually IS. I had an H who became very much the way your H sounds. In my case, I didn’t spend many months of effort trying to facilitate him “changing back” to the old him. Because it’s not my place. And I didn’t have the patience for that, anyway. Even if he could have, and wanted to, I was convinced that the process would have taken too much time, and too much of my own effort- which could & should be applied to my own growth rather than his. Life is not a dress rehearsal nor do we get a Redo button. Is coaching and retraining H really how you hope to spend the rest of your years? Because the way things sound, that is what it would take to have the relationship YOU are hoping for. I’m not sure but it seems like this dysfunctional state IS the relationship he hopes for, so I can only guess he will be resistant to actual deep change. Good luck figuring out what is best for you & your kids. Because really- you & the kiddos are your only responsibilities. His psychic mental emotional health is NOT your responsibility. I hope you find what makes you happy, in a deep and healthy sense.
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Post by nyartgal on Apr 3, 2018 9:03:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but please read the articles here by Cathy Mayer on Passive Aggressive men....there is a great book on it too you can download or buy from Amazon written by a man. Literally, this explained everything about my ex and our problems, it set me free from the constant wondering, analyzing, parsing if his behavior that I see you doing. They keep you doing that on purpose, it's a form of control. Being married to a PA spouse is like death by a million cuts, constant confusion. www.liveabout.com/what-kind-of-woman-marries-the-passive-aggressive-man-1102897You said something about your mom not even allowing you to have boundaries---mine was/is the same but I learned to construct them. She is NPD/BPD and I understand now how that allowed me to not see my ex's controlling behavior or emotional games. Love shouldn't be so much work!
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 3, 2018 9:38:13 GMT -5
A boundary is not something that magically forces your spouse to do what you want. A boundary is something that you believe in, impose and maintain. It fits into your values. If your spouse doesn't adhere to it, you either change the boundary (which may mean your failing to support your own needs) or you end the relationship.
For example if you believe that parents should equally participate as much as possible in raising their children, then if you by mutual agreement are a SAHM, you might view your spouse's time away from work as his opportunity and his obligation to fully participate in child rearing. This would include his doing not just the fun stuff, but also feeding, changing, bathing, going to medical appointments with, putting the kids to bed, getting them up., etc. You would not view his responsibilities as beginning when he walks out of the door to take them to see his mom.
If he and you seemed to view this differently, then this would be something for both of you to discuss and negotiate. For instance, you might decide it's reasonable for him during the time he is not at work to have some alone time or time with friends before shouldering the full responsibilities of child rearing. Together, you would negotiate when that time would occur and how it would be done (such as who would be responsible for taking care of the kids during that time. A babysitter? If so, who has put the time into lining up that sitter?).
Just because you want a boundary and want to discuss and maintain it doesn't mean your spouse will agree to discuss, negotiate it, and/or maintain it. Then, it's up to you to figure out how important the boundary is to you. If it's important, what lengths will you go to impose it? Is it so important that divorce is the only option? Is it so trivial to you that you are wlling to completely bow to your spouse's wishes? Is there any other way you can get your need met?
If your spouse refuses to discuss these sorts of things -- if they resort to the silent treatment or other behaviors that ignore your wishes and values -- you have to decide whether this is a marriage that's worth keeping. You can not change your spouse. You can not make someone engage if they refuse. You can, however, choose to terminate the marriage. To make such a decision, you need to be clear about what are deal breakers. If you have difficulty figuring what is and is not acceptable behavior, then therapy can help.
You've said that your parents didn't allow you to have boundaries. Many people had parents who tried not to allow them to have boundaries. I know people who did drastic things to escape parents who were that controlling. Some did healthful things such as moved in with caring adult friends or relatives. One friend ended up having to -- as a high school student -- go to court to successfully divorce her biological mother., a narcissistic, controlling, emotionally abusive woman with borderline personality disorder. Others did things such as moved out of the house the minute they became legal age. Some got married to escape controlling parents (Typically not the best solution, but at least they got away). Others, unfortunately, turned to drugs, gangs or other dysfunctional ways of escaping their parents.
It is not too late for you to learn to recognize and respect your values and desires, and to learn to impose boundaries as well as appropriate consequences if those boundaries are violated. Just realize that your creating a boundary doesn't mean your partner will adhere to it.
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Post by WindSister on Apr 3, 2018 10:28:09 GMT -5
Lots of good stuff on boundaries here. So I am probably just saying what is already said but wanted to chime in anyway.
I also have had to learn boundaries. I love my husband with all my soul but I do have boundaries with him and we have had to work on things together. I have shown him through my actions how I want to be treated and he has as well. This was done through serious discussions, "in the moment" learning/teaching (like when something tweaked one of us, etc.) and just as we have gotten to know each other. We still learn and will have a life time of learning together because an important thing to remember is people change.
Direct, honest communication is key (without being sarcastic or "joking" or passive aggressive). It's the best skill I have learned and use in my relationship. My husband actually thanks me for this with a huge sigh of relief because he KNOWS what I want/don't want because I SAY IT. Clearly. "When you talk to me like this, I feel disrespected." BAM.... pretty damn clear. I don't get moody or cry or shut off talking with him, I say it... "When you talk to me like this, I feel disrespected." Then he comes back calmly with his explanation, "Well, it frustrates me when you put off things that are important." BAM. Pretty clear. No attacking, just communicating. We learn, we do better next time and our relationship is a calm, happy place where we can trust each other. Once we circle an issue and address it, it is usually fixed and we move on never needing to return to it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 3, 2018 11:59:48 GMT -5
Post Options Post by elynne on Apr 1, 2018 It’s good to keep your eye on the goal in couple’s therapy – the measure of progress. It is entirely a probable outcome to objectively “improve your relationship” and to “improve your communication” in couples’ therapy, but to still have that relationship lacking desire and the expression of it at the completion of that process. A good relationship is not necessarily a sexual one. With that said, it’s not without value if it ends there, because it’s helpful to have a good relationship with your ex-spouse (and is often seen as an attractive trait among the post marriage singles). Bullshit fights over “nothing” are skirmishes against another monster just below the surface. They are about a massive, fundamental impasse – the thing you should likely really be talking about. You established yourself as a person separate from him, rather than orbiting his whim, and you became more interesting again. Regardless of how this story ends, this is a lesson to keep in mind about your duty to remain an independent person with your own interests and desires. In the single world, it’s desirable. And, as Baza correctly points out – you’ve established that he is capable and willing when inspired by desire or fear. Once the third option (the thought of another partner, or of leaving the relationship) enters, there is a period of re-evaluation of one’s own efforts. It’s worth noting from my “open a crack” relationship phase, that when one starts a simultaneous relationship with someone else, it becomes easier to re-evaluate the minimum acceptable behavior I expect from a partner, as well as the level of effort I am putting into relationships I valued. This is likely why some people having affairs end up putting more into their primary relationship, and why others start having more fights with their spouse, even though it risks exposure. My armchair view of this is that in his mind, this isn’t out of the blue, and that perhaps he believes your lack of investment in household social obligations is a recurring motif – and likely a kind of disrespect that he doesn’t share but is forced to answer for, or apologize for, to others. Would that surprise you? What is your relationship to his family? Also, in your dynamic and division of household labour, does he believe that kid prep is your role? Before you accept that as being in your domain, in your new marriage to him – perhaps that’s something that needs to be negotiated, just as you would if you were moving in with someone new. You can agree that what happened was undesirable (and from your end, unexpected – though it sounds like HE expected it). Going forward, maybe you need to step into each other’s roles a bit (you would also need to do this as ex-spouses). I also maybe get a bit of him subverting your authority with kid bedtimes. That’s a serious, correctable foul. As bad as my marriage got, as parents, we established a norm early on that if one parent asserted authority and imposed a limit, the other would immediately be onboard, even if the other parent was wrong. The rationale was that the long term consequences of a fault between us on authority would have far worse long term consequences as both parents and spouses than if either of us was wrong on minor matters of authority – such as an ice cream here or there, or a bedtime. Structural and recurring disagreements – such as nutrition and dessert, or overall bedtimes – would be taken offline and discussed privately, apart from the kids, and checked in with each other. Maybe – and yes – they obviously need to actively renegotiate roles and expectations here. He may handling all kinds of other responsibilities that she doesn’t handle, or that are important to him but that she doesn’t value. Just like he likely didn’t value the hair brushing relative to being late for their appointment. I recall one bullshit fight in which my ex complained about me dirtying the pots and pans in creating an elaborate meal for our family to eat, for example. Sometimes couples don’t notice or value each other’s contributions to the household enterprise, and I’ve seen many situations where one spouse is continually critical when the others performance isn’t up to the standard of the other (ie. Getting the kids presentable, cooking dinner, timing of laundry, loading a dishwasher etc). Gradually, those roles get ceded to the other, but it’s not necessarily because of laziness - it can just be a matter of difference in the standard of performance (ie time needed to make dinner, or how often the lawn is cut. For example, would you have been ok loading the kids in the car “as is”? Would he? What if the conflict wasn’t really about running late (sure it was, but only at its most shallow, surface level), but rather it was about his anger at feeling continually disrespected and disregarded in his priorities, and that this likely isn’t an isolated incident but sits in a much larger and deeper context between you? It might even be the source of anger that has caused him to be turned off you. Is that possible? I think, especially in cases where desire has been lost, that this is the result of an anger that is rooted in something structural and that has grown into a permanent resentment that prevents desire. That anger might be entirely a case of misinterpretation or crossed wires, but if it's settled in - it doesn't matter whether it's real or not. It feels the same. As an ex-husband of an avoidant, this sounds bang on to me. I’d add to that, the spouse of the avoidant WILL STILL PAY one way or another for the conflict that the avoidant spouse is avoiding. Run that program for a few years and it destroys all trust of the avoidant spouse – because the non-avoidant spouse must always second guess what the avoidant spouse really wants and cannot ever rely on what the avoidant spouse says. It ends up with the avoidant spouse passively exerting enormous control over the relationship, and the non-avoidant spouse ceding all agency willingly, but still getting it wrong. It’s just devastating. When this miasma finally all crystallized for me, what helped was the separation in my mind of “co-parent” from “husband” and “love” from “marriage”. I don’t marry everyone I love, and I presume that it is possible to have a good co-parent who is not my married intimate partner. With those notions decoupled, it became MUCH easier to decide on my threshold for what constitutes a married relationship. In my “open relationship” phase, I also had the minor advantage of being able to compare how I treated and was treated by my paramour, and even on first dates, with how I was treated by my wife (as well as how I treated my paramour vs how I treated my marriage and wife, and apply those lessons learned, immediately). It gets really tempting to confuse oneself with a vague and amorphous “progress” – in which one’s relationship with a spouse is objectively and dramatically better, and it feels like the reward for difficult work. And it’s not wrong. But you have to decide though, that better – even GREAT – does not necessarily mean “married” or “husband”. You might have a great relationship with a sibling. You might have a great relationship with an ex-spouse. In fact, in the post marriage singles scene, many people boast of this. That’s its own kind of thing. You need to decide what a marriage is, though, and whether on its best day, what you have qualifies, and then on whether the average day qualifies. Is it a good relationship, or does it meet the threshold of investment required for a marriage, knowing what you know now?
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Post by elynne on Apr 3, 2018 15:58:09 GMT -5
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but please read the articles here by Cathy Mayer on Passive Aggressive men....there is a great book on it too you can download or buy from Amazon written by a man. Literally, this explained everything about my ex and our problems, it set me free from the constant wondering, analyzing, parsing if his behavior that I see you doing. They keep you doing that on purpose, it's a form of control. Being married to a PA spouse is like death by a million cuts, constant confusion. www.liveabout.com/what-kind-of-woman-marries-the-passive-aggressive-man-1102897You said something about your mom not even allowing you to have boundaries---mine was/is the same but I learned to construct them. She is NPD/BPD and I understand now how that allowed me to not see my ex's controlling behavior or emotional games. Love shouldn't be so much work! My mom was (is) also NPD. I have a freakin’ masters in psychology and I just figured out that she was a narcissist this past year! When something is too close it’s so difficult to see clearly. I knew she made me feel bad. I knew she hit me and that was wrong. But throughout my childhood I thought if I could just do better, be better that I could make her love me. Finished high school cum laude, national honor roll, with 9 college credits, varsity swimmer and state champion, varsity tennis, lead in the school play, homecoming princess, cheerleader. But that didn’t change the fact that I wasn’t good enough to make her love me. Boundaries growing up with an NPD Mom? Not only do we not learn healthy boundaries, we’re punished when we have them. It’s really no wonder we stay for so long and it takes a crisis to open our eyes to being unhappy. It’s all too familiar and what we know. I’ve looked up a few articles on PA men, but I’ll read some more. Now that I’m finally figuring this sh*t out, I’m determined to clean it up, handle it, heal from it. And damned if I’m going to let it screw up the rest of my life. And there is no way in hell I’m going to let it impact my kids more than it already has. The buck stops here and I need to ‘man up’ or ‘woman up’ 😉 and prevent unhealthy patterns from being passed down to another generation. A bit of a ramble... one more glass of wine and then to bed. Thanks for reaching out nyartgal. You’re a good egg.
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Post by nyartgal on Apr 3, 2018 19:30:50 GMT -5
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but please read the articles here by Cathy Mayer on Passive Aggressive men....there is a great book on it too you can download or buy from Amazon written by a man. Literally, this explained everything about my ex and our problems, it set me free from the constant wondering, analyzing, parsing if his behavior that I see you doing. They keep you doing that on purpose, it's a form of control. Being married to a PA spouse is like death by a million cuts, constant confusion. www.liveabout.com/what-kind-of-woman-marries-the-passive-aggressive-man-1102897You said something about your mom not even allowing you to have boundaries---mine was/is the same but I learned to construct them. She is NPD/BPD and I understand now how that allowed me to not see my ex's controlling behavior or emotional games. Love shouldn't be so much work! My mom was (is) also NPD. I have a freakin’ masters in psychology and I just figured out that she was a narcissist this past year! When something is too close it’s so difficult to see clearly. I knew she made me feel bad. I knew she hit me and that was wrong. But throughout my childhood I thought if I could just do better, be better that I could make her love me. Finished high school cum laude, national honor roll, with 9 college credits, varsity swimmer and state champion, varsity tennis, lead in the school play, homecoming princess, cheerleader. But that didn’t change the fact that I wasn’t good enough to make her love me. Boundaries growing up with an NPD Mom? Not only do we not learn healthy boundaries, we’re punished when we have them. It’s really no wonder we stay for so long and it takes a crisis to open our eyes to being unhappy. It’s all too familiar and what we know. I’ve looked up a few articles on PA men, but I’ll read some more. Now that I’m finally figuring this sh*t out, I’m determined to clean it up, handle it, heal from it. And damned if I’m going to let it screw up the rest of my life. And there is no way in hell I’m going to let it impact my kids more than it already has. The buck stops here and I need to ‘man up’ or ‘woman up’ 😉 and prevent unhealthy patterns from being passed down to another generation. A bit of a ramble... one more glass of wine and then to bed. Thanks for reaching out nyartgal. You’re a good egg. Very happy to help if I can! Something about your posts felt eerily familiar...especially the wondering "why does he do x? How come he won't do y? Would things be better if I did z?" That was my inner monologue for many years. I think I was conditioned to accept this as normal by growing up with someone whose moods were completely unpredictable and volatile. I didn't figure out until my late 30's (I'm 43 now) that my mom is like a volcano. I can do a dance to try and stop it, but in reality it erupts when it erupts and my dance has no impact whatsoever. Making things even more complex, my ex's mom was a textbook NPD and I figured it out from a book I picked up at Barnes and Noble when she became so toxic I couldn't stand it anymore---and he and his family acted like it was normal. But EVEN THEN I didn't figure out my mom was undiagnosed NPD/BPD until I went to therapy. It's so hard to see things that are so close!! Glad to say also that learning how to build and enforce strict boundaries is totally doable AND a skill that helps in every area of life. It's so liberating to know in your bones that you have the power to define how people are allowed to treat you. And if they can't or won't, bye bye. All of this is incredibly empowering, even if it doesn't feel like it in the moment you're figuring it out! But you will, and you will be much better for it.
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Post by carl on Apr 3, 2018 20:00:02 GMT -5
Don’t look back only forward. Why not take the opportunity to tell him how good he is in bed - can’t hurt.
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Reset?
Apr 10, 2018 7:17:14 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by greatcoastal on Apr 10, 2018 7:17:14 GMT -5
Oh Dear. Here we go again. Another bullshit fight over nothing. And things had been going so well. This time the argument was about the kids being ready ‘on time’ to go with h to visit his father, mother, and then with his mother to his step dad in the hospital. I’m delivering a bunch of paintings to a gallery tomorrow morning and need to package the artwork - agreed that I’d skip this trip since we’re hosting his whole family for a party here next weekend. Kids weren’t out of bed. I got them up, hurried them along, made their breakfast. All was relatively good. But h was getting anxious about being on time. I suggested- you can always call and say I’ll be a 1/2 hour later. Move everything back 1/2 hour. Come home a 1/2 later. It’s all ok. Or suggest meeting your mom at the hospital to visit her husband and make 2 visits out of the 3? No. His mom needs a social visit away from the hospital to relax. Ok. Your choice. But then as I was brushing the girls hair, getting their things together for the car, drawings for Opa, etc. h gets very agitated. “I’m leaving NOW. You can do whatever you want with the kids.” I’m like “What? That’s a strange reaction. What do you mean by that?” He blusters out the door. I hurry the kids into the car and he peels out of the driveway. <sigh> Again and again and again, I relate a different story, different details, same exact theme. I’m getting stuck here. I know something is off. I know because I feel agitated. Guilty but angry that I’m made to feel guilty. The ‘waking up’ part of me is saying “hey! Red flag! Take notice” but I’m still struggling to really see the dynamic clearly. I’m going to get another silent treatment. I know it. I don’t know if it’s a reaction to being closer over the last few days. I don’t know if it’s the stress of visiting his narcissistic mom and dealing with her crazy since her husband is sick with an uncertain prognosis. He’s got to reach deep to be supportive. I don’t think it comes naturally to him. Is it just being 9 minutes later out the door than he intended that got under his skin? If that’s what set him off than perhaps he should have made sure the kids were out of bed earlier, backed me up when I wanted to send them to bed on time rather than letting them stay up late. I’ve got to figure out what’s going with me when I shoulder all the blame for his upset. There’s a glitch in the system there. ---------------------------. How did your weekend go with hosting the family? Especially with your new insights towards your marriage?
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