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Post by baza on Apr 2, 2018 17:21:10 GMT -5
*Deadlines* are really for oneself Sister elynne ...not ones spouse. And the aim of a deadline is to keep yourself accountable, not the other person. Further, the question is not "which particular neurosis my spouse has" but is rather "how long am I going to keep exposing myself to it".
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Post by elynne on Apr 2, 2018 17:21:36 GMT -5
"Yes. Agreed. It wasn’t a fight, ‘cause I didn’t get my dukes up. It was a conflict, because h was feeling testy about running late. I did ask him for clarification when his comment didn’t sit right with me. But I did it in a spirit of defensiveness. In the heat of the moment, as he was already stressed about being late probably wasn’t the time to ask for clarification. What might have been better, “Hmmm... Honey, it feels like you’re pretty stressed out about running late and that you’re blaming me for it. Let’s talk about that later tonight." No! It's not your job to manage his feelings. If he wanted to take HIS kids to HIS mom's, it was his job to do more than wait for you to get them ready, and then criticize you when you weren't doing it up to his standards. Consequently, the better answer would have been: "Here's what you can do to help get them ready." Please, please talk to your counselor about this. A lot of the advice here is, unfortunately, from others who spend their time taking responsibility for their lazy, dysfunctional, narcissistic, selfish, manipulative refusers. You need help with boundary setting and expecting responsible behavior from your spouse when it comes to his being a parent. You've spent too much time why chasing and trying to see his point of view. Your feelings and reactions are valid. Time to spend time figuring out why the hell instead of telling him to pitch in, you redoubled your efforts to make sure the kids got ready. And why the hell you accepted blame and analyzed yourself instead of allowing yourself to feel very justifiably angry at how badly he was treating you. Anger is appropriate when one is being blamed for something that is not your fault and that also is someone else's responsibility. Allowing yourself to feel angry doesn't mean that you'd have to allow yourself to curse him out or do something else that is over the top. But allowing yourself to feel anger would give you permission to expect him to step up to his own responsibilities instead of your bending over backward to please him. Hell, we aren't discussing here an emegency situation. It wasn't as if a child was hemorrhaging and needed to be gotten swiftly to the hospital. A visit with Grandmom isn't an emergency. If your husband gets out of wack for something that trivial, he has major problems that he needs to resolve, and if he can't or won't resolve them, he will never be the kind of husband who will make you happy. Your enabling him only prevents him from becoming a fully functioning father. It's the type of situation that all parents have to figure out. Can we set up some sort of 007 earpiece for me, and you can give me live coaching when h and I have a ‘conflict? That would be awesome. There’s a bit of a conundrum here. I’m not so good at conflict in an intimate relationship, but it’s something you can only work on within the confines of a relationship.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 17:27:19 GMT -5
"This is where I’m waffling a little. Secure attachment style partners can calm and balance out anxious partners. Over time the anxious partner can move to a more secure attachment style."
Your partner's history has been that when he gets angry at you, he stonewalls you by giving you the silent treatment -- for a few days! That's also a very manipulative way of keeping you in your place. You stress and stew and second guess your reactions. And by the time he starts talking to you again, you are so relieved that the issue -- his behavior -- never gets addressed. You continue picking up the ball that he has dropped.
This is also an example of why I find the attachment theory to be unhelpful when it comes to these SMs. The refused typically are the only ones taking action and thought to improve the marriages, and striving to be securely attached only keeps the refused thinking and acting as if they can finally do whatever is needed to cause their partner to become the kind of spouse they desire. YOU CAN"T CHANGE ANOTHER PERSON. It is dysfunctional to be securely attached to a person who is treating you like shit. The more effort the refused place in honoring their own feelings and reactions, and figuring out why they selected and stay with a person who isn't meeting their needs, the sooner the refused will be able to create a situation that allows more happiness in their own life.
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Reset?
Apr 2, 2018 17:43:12 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by surfergirl on Apr 2, 2018 17:43:12 GMT -5
northstarmomI can’t speak for elynne, but the problem I run into with “you can’t attach securely to someone who treats you like shit,” is that they breadcrumb you after an episode and then I loop into wondering if I am overreacting. And in some cases, I DID overreact (throwing things, etc).....
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 17:44:32 GMT -5
"I’m not so good at conflict in an intimate relationship, but it’s something you can only work on within the confines of a relationship."
You can't change another person but you can figure out what you find acceptable in your relationship. Then, you can act accordingly.
My refuser ex only stopped talking to me (except for the very basics) once. We were in therapy for our SM, planned a romantic getaway. On the drive there, I asked some kind of innocuous question and he used that as a reason to shut down. The rest of the weekend, he said only what needed to be said to me. Of course there was no lovemaking. He had never acted like that and I was wondering what the hell was going on. Then, when we went to our counseling session, he said that he had stopped talking to me and he blamed me. I knew very well I had done nothing wrong. The question I had asked was an ordinary question. That was my ding-ding-ding moment. Finally, I saw what kind of man I'd married, and I realized there wasn't a thing I could do about it. I got up and walked out of that counseling, and spent the next couple of years focusing on myself -- finding hobbies I enjoyed (without him), friends I enjoyed (without him), surrounding myself with people whom I could really connect with. And one day I woke up and realized that I didn't want to be married any more, and I divorced with no angst.
Before that, whenever I'd try to talk about or SM, my refuser would get a deer in the headlights look, suggest that I was badgering him and needed to give him more time to figure things out. He'd do a more subtle stonewalling, and my response was to wait years for his answer, an answer which never came.
What I learned from that marriage was that I will never again be with someone who won't talk to me when something is bothering him. His thinking it over overnight or for a few hours would be fine. The silent treatment or his avoiding the subject indefinitely is not fine. Any person who does that to me is not someone whom I will choose to be in a romantic relationship or a friendship with (and I did end a friendship with a woman who did that to me). If someone has such a low tolerance for conflict that they can't discuss issues that are important to me or our relationship, I don't need a relationship with that person. I'm not going to waste my time trying to manage their anxiety. I'm going to move on to be available to someone who's compatible with me.
I have the right to my feelings and desires. Someone who can't tolerate discussing with me and negotiating with me things that I find important is not the person for me to be with.
When you learn to honor your feelings and desires, you'll be able to handle conflict in relationships. This doesn't mean you'll be able to solve all of the conflicts or get everything your way. You will, however, learn to set boundaries, and when a person doesn't adhere to your boundaries, you will move on. In the situation that led to this discussion, setting a boundary would have been not taking all of the responsibility for getting your kids ready to go out with your husband. It could have been letting him know that if he allowed them to stay up late, he'd be the one getting them up in the morning. It could have been giving him tasks to do when he started complaining about the kids' being slow.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 17:55:18 GMT -5
"And in some cases, I DID overreact (throwing things, etc)....."
Then, it would be appropriate to find better ways of handling your anger. Those ways may include speaking up or taking productive action early instead of when your anger gets out of control. Therapy can help you with that.
Anger isn't a bad thing. It's a signal that something is bothering you. Learning how to respond appropriately to the signal is something that would help you.
And if you are --as I was for years in my SM-- angry all of the time, then that's a big signal that your spouse isn't the right person for you. It's also a signal that you need to take actions under your control that will allow you to be happier. For me, those actions were doing virtually everything without my spouse. I made new friends who treated me well. I got an exercise program that made me feel good. I pursued other hobbies that made me happy. After a while, I lost the sharp anger toward my spouse. His presence did, however, irritate me, and I did my best to avoid him. Finally, I realized, I'd be happier single than with him and I ended our relationship.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 2, 2018 18:31:25 GMT -5
"DryCreek - your comments and suggestions are precisely what the best “secure attachment style” partners do. " And if one is securely attached to an asshole, a narcissist, an abusive person, etc., the behaviors that were referred to will keep one securely attached to that dysfunctional person while that dysfunctional person remains dysfunctional. And that dysfunctional person Wlll Not Change. Because no one can change another person, and a person who is abusive, narcissistic, etc. does not want to change. I''m in a study in which every month I fill out a survey about my relationships. Every month for the year or so this has been going on, I get a score that says I'm securely attached to my partner. It's a nice place to be -- because my post SM partner is a man who loves me back. I don't have to beg, plead, cajole, repeatedly explain as if to a toddler to be treated with respect, romance, love and sensuality. His actions don't include the 4 horsemen: stonewalling, contempt, defensiveness, constant criticism. Sure, as is the case with people who are normal, sometimes he needs coddling or some special handling or understanding just like I do. But it isn't something that either of us has to be constantly prepared to do. And it's something that goes both ways. Sometimes I get upset and I need some TLC and understanding and he gives it to me. The problem I see in the OP's situation is that she is always the one who has to make the special effort. I don't see any point in attempting to be securely attached to a person who is a person whose actions are selfish, criticizing and stonewalling. Confident detachment would seem far more appropriate. This is where I’m waffling a little. Secure attachment style partners can calm and balance out anxious partners. Over time the anxious partner can move to a more secure attachment style. Avoidants present a bigger challenge. Their defense strategy is to avoid what causes them stress. The anxiously attached partner feels anxious and reaches for her partner. The partner can provide reassurance. There is an exchange. But the avoidant, feels a subconscious fear that they will be rejected and preemptively distances from the partner. Their stress level decreases because they’ve removed the stress inducing stimulus (the partner, intimacy, closeness, vulnerability). The “undesired” behavior is self-rewarding. But in theory, avoidants can move to a more secure attachment style. If he’s really trying to change, then the least I can do is be as clear as I can about what I want in a partner and to support his attempts to evolve into a more supportive and loving husband. If he tells me he doesn’t want to bother doing that work, that’s an obvious deal breaker. If he makes an honest effort but falls short - that becomes a trickier call. What amount of change is enough? What exact things am I unwilling to compromise on and with what things is there some wiggle room? Are there timelines? Deadlines? If you’re not a passable excuse for a good husband within a year, it’s over? "Over time they can move to a more secure attachment style". Theoretically let's say that miriacle happens. There's another huge factor that's being left out of this equation. How long will it last? Who is responsible for making it last? ( It should be the one who had to do the most changes) Then after it crumbles in a few months, or a year, where are you now? Who controlled it all again? The controller.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 18:40:24 GMT -5
"If he makes an honest effort but falls short - that becomes a trickier call. What amount of change is enough? What exact things am I unwilling to compromise on and with what things is there some wiggle room? Are there timelines? Deadlines? If you’re not a passable excuse for a good husband within a year, it’s over?"
This is where to place your effort: Into figuring ou your own boundaries.
Mine are that if my man cheats on me, I leave; if he hits me or threatens me, I leave; if he uses the silent treatment: I leave; If he is sexually capable but frequently refuses to have sex with me: I leave; If he is an alcoholic or drug addict: I leave; If he treats me with contempt: I leave; If he is controlling or emotionally or verbally abusive: I leave; If he is a selfish lover who puts no effort into satisfying me: I leave; if he is controlling or very emotionally dependent: I leave.
I'm not going to sit around waiting for an incompatible man to transform himself into the man of my dreams. Life is short. I want to enjoy mine.
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Post by tirefire on Apr 2, 2018 19:07:54 GMT -5
elynne "Oh Dear. Here we go again. Another bullshit fight over nothing. And things had been going so well." I will suggest you should change your vocabulary. It takes two to fight. It does not take two to have conflict. What you described is the latter. As someone with a w with an explosive personality, I self identify with parts of your situation. And how hard it is to sort it out when you are in the middle of it. Hang in there. Cheering for you. Yes. Agreed. It wasn’t a fight, ‘cause I didn’t get my dukes up. It was a conflict, because h was feeling testy about running late. I did ask him for clarification when his comment didn’t sit right with me. But I did it in a spirit of defensiveness. In the heat of the moment, as he was already stressed about being late probably wasn’t the time to ask for clarification. What might have been better, “Hmmm... Honey, it feels like you’re pretty stressed out about running late and that you’re blaming me for it. Let’s talk about that later tonight.” Geez! If I had put this much thought into our marriage in the early days instead of smiling when I felt like crying or telling him not to be such an ass, we might be in a much different place today. Would it, though? Respectfully, I don't think you are the problem here so what you did or didn't do might not make a difference. This is a real question: does he spend even a small fraction of the time you do analysing how to make things work better? I have nothing but respect for you grabbing the problem by the balls, acting like an adult and having those tough convos regardless of their effectiveness. I just worry that you are looking at "what can I do differently" when you aren't what needs to change.
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Post by baza on Apr 2, 2018 19:31:27 GMT -5
This "boundaries" caper is a hugely important thing. Here's something from the other side of the fence. I *know* what Ms enna's dealbreakers / boundaries are. And, co-incidently, my dealbreakers / boundaries are pretty much the same and she knows what they are. This does NOT hang like some depressing pall over our relationship creating an atmosphere where I feel anxiety and stress and a need to constantly watch my P's and Q's lest I tread on her boundaries. Rather, it is a framework we put in place early on in our deal, making our needs and expectations of a relationship crystal clear to each other. Indeed it wasn't even negotiated as such. She, by her behaviour, showed that she was not violent, emotionally abusive, addicted, sexually refusive, controlling or emotionally dependent. And she has continually shown the same behaviour through out our deal for close on 8 years now. And (in my opinion) so have I. These dealbreakers / boundaries are pretty much a non-event in our day to day life. I don't spend much - if any - time thinking about them, but I guess the way we try to treat each other tends to constantly re-affirm them, if you follow what I mean. Lest I fall off my high horse here, I do need to note that so far, my willingness to "enforce" my boundaries has not really arisen in any significant way, in the baz/enna dynamic, so far. Were that to happen (by Ms enna choosing to take up extra-marital rooting or something similar) I might well find that my resolve to defend my boundaries might not be so hot in practice as it is in theory !! I know from my ILIASM experience that trying to re-establish boundaries once they have been walked all over is no simple task. Indeed I am none too sure that it is even possible to do so. Further, if you are in a situation where you have never had boundaries, and are now trying to institute them - after your deal has plummeted south - all I can say is "good luck with that one". Tagged - northstarmom elynne
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Post by elynne on Apr 3, 2018 2:17:27 GMT -5
I need some time to process this. I think this gets to the very heart of the issue I’m dealing with.
The boundaries have been trespassed from the beginning. Trying to fix it now may be a long and bumpy road.
I think the only way forward may be to sit down with h, and make the end goal very clear. Clear boundaries, clear expectations from both sides.
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Post by baza on Apr 3, 2018 4:12:25 GMT -5
This "setting of boundaries" thing is very much a solo pursuit Sister elynne . You both set them, but as individuals. If your relationship is pretty functional, the boundaries you set (for you) will actually align pretty much with the boundaries your partner sets for themselves. If your relationship is pretty dysfunctional, then the boundaries you set (for you) and the boundaries your partner sets (for themselves) will be very different...probably fundamentally different. And usually, in a functional relationship, both partners expect "their" boundaries to apply to themselves as much as the partner. That is to say, they don't have one rule for themselves and another rule for their partner. Some obvious examples would be say, - - cheating. It is bullshit for you to hold your partner to monogomy, but not hold yourself to the same standard - it is bullshit to expect civility and respect from your partner if you don't exhibit these traits toward them. - it is bullshit to expect financial responsibility from your partner if you don't display the same discipline. In a dysfunctional relationship, these "one boundary for me but another boundary for you" things appear a lot. (Lots of them in your run of stories here so far) You Sister elynne , are as entitled as anyone else to set your boundaries, and to set them where YOU want. The setting of YOUR boundaries is down to YOU and no-one else. Same for your spouse. He is just as entitled as you or me to set his boundaries exactly where he likes. If your independently established boundaries, are pretty closely aligned, then chances are you have a functional situation on your hands - and you are probably not a member here. If your boundaries are waaaay different (and / or that double standard mentioned above is evident) then you have a dysfunctional situation on your hands, a relationship on a downward spiraling trajectory.
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Post by shamwow on Apr 3, 2018 6:56:52 GMT -5
This "boundaries" caper is a hugely important thing. Here's something from the other side of the fence. I *know* what Ms enna's dealbreakers / boundaries are. And, co-incidently, my dealbreakers / boundaries are pretty much the same and she knows what they are. This does NOT hang like some depressing pall over our relationship creating an atmosphere where I feel anxiety and stress and a need to constantly watch my P's and Q's lest I tread on her boundaries. Rather, it is a framework we put in place early on in our deal, making our needs and expectations of a relationship crystal clear to each other. Indeed it wasn't even negotiated as such. She, by her behaviour, showed that she was not violent, emotionally abusive, addicted, sexually refusive, controlling or emotionally dependent. And she has continually shown the same behaviour through out our deal for close on 8 years now. And (in my opinion) so have I. These dealbreakers / boundaries are pretty much a non-event in our day to day life. I don't spend much - if any - time thinking about them, but I guess the way we try to treat each other tends to constantly re-affirm them, if you follow what I mean. Lest I fall off my high horse here, I do need to note that so far, my willingness to "enforce" my boundaries has not really arisen in any significant way, in the baz/enna dynamic, so far. Were that to happen (by Ms enna choosing to take up extra-marital rooting or something similar) I might well find that my resolve to defend my boundaries might not be so hot in practice as it is in theory !! I know from my ILIASM experience that trying to re-establish boundaries once they have been walked all over is no simple task. Indeed I am none too sure that it is even possible to do so. Further, if you are in a situation where you have never had boundaries, and are now trying to institute them - after your deal has plummeted south - all I can say is "good luck with that one". Tagged - northstarmom elynneIndeed. If you have to work hard to set up and enforce boundaries, you might not be with the right person. I'd be curious if 8.years ago this just fell into place with Ms Emma or if there was a series of missteps and misunderstandings during which you learned each other's boundaries. Both ballofconfusion and I often deal with the effects our respective marriages have had upon us. Understanding what triggers hurt, panic, fear, and anger in each other helps us set those boundaries. Like you and Ms Emma, we talk about these things so as to be crystal clear as to where our boundaries are. You are close to a decade removed and may not remember this process as well (and that is a wonderful thing!). Going through the "post PTSD" phase right now, I just want to pipe in that it isn't easy. But I also totally agree that having never established boundaries in my SM, doing so after they had been trampled would have been impossible. The process of boundary setting is not clear cut and neat. And it requires an enthusiastic partner. But living in a relationship without boundaries where you are being constantly trampled is night and day different from one where you each know where you stand.
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Post by shamwow on Apr 3, 2018 7:04:55 GMT -5
I need some time to process this. I think this gets to the very heart of the issue I’m dealing with. The boundaries have been trespassed from the beginning. Trying to fix it now may be a long and bumpy road. I think the only way forward may be to sit down with h, and make the end goal very clear. Clear boundaries, clear expectations from both sides. If the expectations are not clear, then it is both of your fault. If he sets boundaries that are unacceptable to you (he gets to set some too) then it is not his fault. It is your choice. Likewise if you set boundaries he chooses not to respect it is his choice. Note the difference between "choice" and "fault" here. Until the boundaries are clearly stated and both sides understand them and agree to respect them there is fault. Once things are clearly laid out and agreed to, not living up to one's end is a choice. And choices have consequences. It is wise to discuss what the consequences are too so nobody is caught by surprise.
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Post by elynne on Apr 3, 2018 7:49:33 GMT -5
I need some time to process this. I think this gets to the very heart of the issue I’m dealing with. The boundaries have been trespassed from the beginning. Trying to fix it now may be a long and bumpy road. I think the only way forward may be to sit down with h, and make the end goal very clear. Clear boundaries, clear expectations from both sides. If the expectations are not clear, then it is both of your fault. If he sets boundaries that are unacceptable to you (he gets to set some too) then it is not his fault. It is your choice. Likewise if you set boundaries he chooses not to respect it is his choice. Note the difference between "choice" and "fault" here. Until the boundaries are clearly stated and both sides understand them and agree to respect them there is fault. Once things are clearly laid out and agreed to, not living up to one's end is a choice. And choices have consequences. It is wise to discuss what the consequences are too so nobody is caught by surprise. shamwow and baza - this boundary advice is so helpful and valuable. In my childhood my mother didn’t overstep my boundaries- they weren’t even allowed to exist. And my Dad played peacekeeper, encouraging me to back down whenever I protested a serious infraction. Thus boundaries for me are murky and blurry. I think part of me believes I’ll be rewarded by giving in. H learned to disregard boundaries from his mom who could make an Olympic sport of it. The two of us certainly have a big challenge ahead of us if we’re going to establish healthy boundaries at this late stage in the game. Working for us is the fact that a divorce would have a big financial impact for him. He’d be hard pressed to find another partner who would work so hard at building a healthy relationship. Working against us is his ingrained attitude of contempt and criticism and an adversarial stance. And the fact that it’s really hard to communicate with him. I think I’m going to do some work on my boundaries. And then find a good time and manner to explain them to him. I’ve still got a lot to process and internalize with understanding my boundaries. Listening to what I want. What I need and what I demand of a partner.
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