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Post by DryCreek on Apr 2, 2018 11:10:39 GMT -5
elynne, you've seen some fantastic positive signs recently, but he can't change his bad behavior overnight - it's deeply ingrained for years, and he seems to have stepped back into a familiar groove. Truthfully, if his behavior had changed consistently overnight, that would be more concerning. That's not to make excuses for him or put the onus on you. Rather, it's a caution that the road to recovery is long, even with progress. You'll have plenty of conflict to address along the way. This one incident doesn't encapsulate all the issues in your relationship, but it's a stark example that's ripe for discussion. In light of the very positive days prior, you'd be missing a grand opportunity if you didn't drill deep into this with him. He really needs to dissect this and identify what about that scene pushed his buttons, why it triggered him, and how he's going to address that trigger in his psyche. A la, "We made some amazing progress together this week, but Sunday morning shows that we still have a lot of work to do. We need to end those kinds of conflicts. I want to dig into that example and understand why the timing for that was so critical to you, and why it made you so agitated." Maybe he's just an intolerant ass who's obsessed with living a schedule. Maybe tardiness was a big point of shame from his Mom, and he still seeks her approval. Maybe there was some logistical challenge that made timing critical, and he failed to communicate that to you in advance (wrongly assuming that you'd shoot for a precision time without his asking for it). In the end, there was a reason for the urgency that he didn't share (or maybe isn't consciously aware of) - *that's* what he needs to get his arms around. i.e., was his reason for urgency legit, or does he need to identify what wound him up and get it in check? And did he expect something of you that he hadn't communicated, and is that really reasonable? "It's important that we leave on-time tomorrow morning." "OK, then we need to get the kids to bed on time tonight, which means we need to be home from today's activities by 7:00." A 10-second conversation. The 'why' doesn't even matter - this would have put you both on the same page, in a timeframe that enabled you to plan ahead, and a sense of urgency. "Oh, shit - we're going to be late!" is not effective communication. Yes, it's also a reminder for you to take stock in your reactions as well, and why you shoulder his unreasonable expectations. That's good work for you, regardless, but there's a lot of his behavior to explore here too. The heat of the moment is not always the time to tackle these issues - you'll be more effective dissecting this with him after the fact. Bearing through it doesn't mean you need to own it later. As a suggestion, in the absence of his over-communication, you might need to prompt him as a way to train him what kind of info he should be offering proactively. "We're heading to your Mom's tomorrow morning, and you wanted to leave by 9:00 - is that because the timing is sensitive, and are there any things we need to work around?" FWIW, DC
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Apr 2, 2018 11:14:45 GMT -5
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 11:14:45 GMT -5
“Maybe more why chasing- but I strongly suspect that my h was chastised and shamed as a child whenever he did something he was proud of and asked for recognition for it.
I think that’s why when I ask for a compliment, his reaction is to put me down. Funny, or maybe actually just sad and ironic, that if he gave compliments more freely, I wouldn’t ask for them!”
The why doesn’t matter. What matters is that he deliberately is refusing to do behavior — easy behavior — that would make you feel happier.
When I got to the point of realizing I deserved better, I divorced. I was 61 and had been with my ex for 36 years. I never expected to be in another romantic relationship but I knew I’d be happier single than remaining in a marriage in which I got no sex or affirmation. I also promised myself I would not settle for a man who gave me less than I wanted.
I am now 66, a tad overweight, with c section scars, stretch marks and 3 fingertips missing due to an accident 20 years ago. Post sm lover calls me, “gorgeous,” takes pictures of me and posts them on FB with captions saying, “isn’t she beautiful.” At home, he insists that I sleep nude so he can gaze at and feel my body. He tells me how lucky he is to be with me.
You deserve better. You can’t change your husband’s behavior. You can change your willingness to tolerate having a husband like him.
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Apr 2, 2018 11:19:49 GMT -5
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 11:19:49 GMT -5
“As a suggestion, in the absence of his over-communication, you might need to prompt him as a way to train him what kind of info he should be offering proactively. "We're heading to your Mom's tomorrow morning, and you wanted to leave by 9:00 - is that because the timing is sensitive, and are there any things we need to work around?"”
Seems like that leaves her stuck with all the thinking and planning. If he is taking the kids to his mom’s, he needs to be the one ensuring the kids are ready. That’s what it means to be a dad. He’s not paralyzed or stupid just lazy and underinvolved. She enabled his behavior by taking on all of the responsibility for getting the kids ready.
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 2, 2018 11:37:10 GMT -5
Seems like that leaves her stuck with all the thinking and planning. Of course he should be contributing to getting the kids ready, but that's not my point. Life is a 2-way street. Does he have issues? Yes. Is it his responsibility to fix them? Absolutely. Should she have to spoon-feed him? No, but it's certainly in her interest to contribute to his re-training if he's willing to change. To expect a drowning man to intuitively learn to swim isn't reasonable. One could stand back and say "not my problem"; it must suck to be him. Or one could toss him a life preserver as a chance at survival - that might be in everyone's interest. What a layman *shouldn't* do is jump in to save them, only to have them drown you in the process.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 11:44:28 GMT -5
My idea of a prompt: her Telling him that if just one of them is taking the kids out, it’s that parent’s responsibility to get the kids ready including getting the kids to bed and/or up in time. The parent taking kids out can request help from the other parent but not just stand by awaiting the kids’ readiness.
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Apr 2, 2018 12:41:53 GMT -5
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 2, 2018 12:41:53 GMT -5
My idea of a prompt: her Telling him that if just one of them is taking the kids out, it’s that parent’s responsibility to get the kids ready including getting the kids to bed and/or up in time. The parent taking kids out can request help from the other parent but not just stand by awaiting the kids’ readiness. Certainly. His behavior with respect to the kids is also an issue, and him owning a role in getting them ready. There's not just one issue to resolve with his behavior. I'm driving at the underlying point that he became very agitated about running late, regardless of why. Either he had an urgency that he failed to communicate in advance, or he's getting wound up because of some external / historical dynamic that's not obvious, or he's just OCD about punctuality. Any one of these three warrants investigation and correction. In the meantime, my suggestion is that (presuming he recognizes and wants to change this behavior) elynne could support him to their mutual benefit by showing him the kinds of info that would be useful, and when, in real-time. Think of it as providing feedback in advance; training proper behavior.
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 2, 2018 12:46:47 GMT -5
My idea of a prompt: her Telling him that if just one of them is taking the kids out, it’s that parent’s responsibility to get the kids ready including getting the kids to bed and/or up in time. The parent taking kids out can request help from the other parent but not just stand by awaiting the kids’ readiness. Certainly. His behavior with respect to the kids is also an issue, and him owning a role in getting them ready. There's not just one issue to resolve with his behavior. I'm driving at the underlying point that he became very agitated about running late, regardless of why. Either he had an urgency that he failed to communicate in advance, or he's getting wound up because of some external / historical dynamic that's not obvious, or he's just OCD about punctuality. Any one of these three warrants investigation and correction. In the meantime, my suggestion is that (presuming he recognizes and wants to change this behavior) elynne could support him to their mutual benefit by showing him the kinds of info that would be useful, and when, in real-time. Think of it as providing feedback in advance; training proper behavior. Or maybe he's just an asshole and likes to pick fights and assign blame.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 15:50:50 GMT -5
Controlling people set you up for further belittling and controlling and they do it naturally and easily. The behaviors you describe are so typical. Your approach and communications have been mature and straightforward and he is still pulling this type of nonsense. A willing, honest participant can learn to make changes to their relationship dynamic in pursuit of a better relationship. These base personality traits, in my opinion, do not change.
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Post by elynne on Apr 2, 2018 16:22:09 GMT -5
elynne, you've seen some fantastic positive signs recently, but he can't change his bad behavior overnight - it's deeply ingrained for years, and he seems to have stepped back into a familiar groove. Truthfully, if his behavior had changed consistently overnight, that would be more concerning. That's not to make excuses for him or put the onus on you. Rather, it's a caution that the road to recovery is long, even with progress. You'll have plenty of conflict to address along the way. This one incident doesn't encapsulate all the issues in your relationship, but it's a stark example that's ripe for discussion. In light of the very positive days prior, you'd be missing a grand opportunity if you didn't drill deep into this with him. He really needs to dissect this and identify what about that scene pushed his buttons, why it triggered him, and how he's going to address that trigger in his psyche. A la, "We made some amazing progress together this week, but Sunday morning shows that we still have a lot of work to do. We need to end those kinds of conflicts. I want to dig into that example and understand why the timing for that was so critical to you, and why it made you so agitated." Maybe he's just an intolerant ass who's obsessed with living a schedule. Maybe tardiness was a big point of shame from his Mom, and he still seeks her approval. Maybe there was some logistical challenge that made timing critical, and he failed to communicate that to you in advance (wrongly assuming that you'd shoot for a precision time without his asking for it). In the end, there was a reason for the urgency that he didn't share (or maybe isn't consciously aware of) - *that's* what he needs to get his arms around. i.e., was his reason for urgency legit, or does he need to identify what wound him up and get it in check? And did he expect something of you that he hadn't communicated, and is that really reasonable? "It's important that we leave on-time tomorrow morning." "OK, then we need to get the kids to bed on time tonight, which means we need to be home from today's activities by 7:00." A 10-second conversation. The 'why' doesn't even matter - this would have put you both on the same page, in a timeframe that enabled you to plan ahead, and a sense of urgency. "Oh, shit - we're going to be late!" is not effective communication. Yes, it's also a reminder for you to take stock in your reactions as well, and why you shoulder his unreasonable expectations. That's good work for you, regardless, but there's a lot of his behavior to explore here too. The heat of the moment is not always the time to tackle these issues - you'll be more effective dissecting this with him after the fact. Bearing through it doesn't mean you need to own it later. As a suggestion, in the absence of his over-communication, you might need to prompt him as a way to train him what kind of info he should be offering proactively. "We're heading to your Mom's tomorrow morning, and you wanted to leave by 9:00 - is that because the timing is sensitive, and are there any things we need to work around?" FWIW, DC DryCreek - your comments and suggestions are precisely what the best “secure attachment style” partners do. They’re not triggered by the emotional reaction, the blame, or the anger. They see through it and are able to let it roll past them. They can provide clarity to the distressed partner who is acting out their fear or anxiety or stress. They can defuse the situation and provide support, helping to maintain an ‘even-keel’. DC, you will make someone an awesome partner. Those relationship skills, the ability to step back and see the big picture, to be able to weigh the good and the bad fairly. That sh*t is pure gold. That, my friend, is what we all should hope we find in our spouse. I appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
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Apr 2, 2018 16:41:33 GMT -5
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Post by tirefire on Apr 2, 2018 16:41:33 GMT -5
shamwow " Please do not read this to mean I don't like tits. I like them a lot." You're killing me. That was awesome.
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Apr 2, 2018 16:46:49 GMT -5
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Post by tirefire on Apr 2, 2018 16:46:49 GMT -5
elynne "Oh Dear. Here we go again. Another bullshit fight over nothing. And things had been going so well." I will suggest you should change your vocabulary. It takes two to fight. It does not take two to have conflict. What you described is the latter. As someone with a w with an explosive personality, I self identify with parts of your situation. And how hard it is to sort it out when you are in the middle of it. Hang in there. Cheering for you.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 17:00:00 GMT -5
"DryCreek - your comments and suggestions are precisely what the best “secure attachment style” partners do. "
And if one is securely attached to an asshole, a narcissist, an abusive person, etc., the behaviors that were referred to will keep one securely attached to that dysfunctional person while that dysfunctional person remains dysfunctional. And that dysfunctional person Wlll Not Change. Because no one can change another person, and a person who is abusive, narcissistic, etc. does not want to change.
I''m in a study in which every month I fill out a survey about my relationships. Every month for the year or so this has been going on, I get a score that says I'm securely attached to my partner. It's a nice place to be -- because my post SM partner is a man who loves me back. I don't have to beg, plead, cajole, repeatedly explain as if to a toddler to be treated with respect, romance, love and sensuality. His actions don't include the 4 horsemen: stonewalling, contempt, defensiveness, constant criticism. Sure, as is the case with people who are normal, sometimes he needs coddling or some special handling or understanding just like I do. But it isn't something that either of us has to be constantly prepared to do. And it's something that goes both ways. Sometimes I get upset and I need some TLC and understanding and he gives it to me.
The problem I see in the OP's situation is that she is always the one who has to make the special effort. I don't see any point in attempting to be securely attached to a person who is a person whose actions are selfish, criticizing and stonewalling. Confident detachment would seem far more appropriate.
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Post by elynne on Apr 2, 2018 17:00:04 GMT -5
elynne "Oh Dear. Here we go again. Another bullshit fight over nothing. And things had been going so well." I will suggest you should change your vocabulary. It takes two to fight. It does not take two to have conflict. What you described is the latter. As someone with a w with an explosive personality, I self identify with parts of your situation. And how hard it is to sort it out when you are in the middle of it. Hang in there. Cheering for you. Yes. Agreed. It wasn’t a fight, ‘cause I didn’t get my dukes up. It was a conflict, because h was feeling testy about running late. I did ask him for clarification when his comment didn’t sit right with me. But I did it in a spirit of defensiveness. In the heat of the moment, as he was already stressed about being late probably wasn’t the time to ask for clarification. What might have been better, “Hmmm... Honey, it feels like you’re pretty stressed out about running late and that you’re blaming me for it. Let’s talk about that later tonight.” Geez! If I had put this much thought into our marriage in the early days instead of smiling when I felt like crying or telling him not to be such an ass, we might be in a much different place today.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 2, 2018 17:14:21 GMT -5
"Yes. Agreed. It wasn’t a fight, ‘cause I didn’t get my dukes up. It was a conflict, because h was feeling testy about running late. I did ask him for clarification when his comment didn’t sit right with me. But I did it in a spirit of defensiveness. In the heat of the moment, as he was already stressed about being late probably wasn’t the time to ask for clarification.
What might have been better, “Hmmm... Honey, it feels like you’re pretty stressed out about running late and that you’re blaming me for it. Let’s talk about that later tonight."
No! It's not your job to manage his feelings. If he wanted to take HIS kids to HIS mom's, it was his job to do more than wait for you to get them ready, and then criticize you when you weren't doing it up to his standards.
Consequently, the better answer would have been: "Here's what you can do to help get them ready."
Please, please talk to your counselor about this. A lot of the advice here is, unfortunately, from others who spend their time taking responsibility for their lazy, dysfunctional, narcissistic, selfish, manipulative refusers. You need help with boundary setting and expecting responsible behavior from your spouse when it comes to his being a parent. You've spent too much time why chasing and trying to see his point of view. Your feelings and reactions are valid. Time to spend time figuring out why the hell instead of telling him to pitch in, you redoubled your efforts to make sure the kids got ready. And why the hell you accepted blame and analyzed yourself instead of allowing yourself to feel very justifiably angry at how badly he was treating you.
Anger is appropriate when one is being blamed for something that is not your fault and that also is someone else's responsibility. Allowing yourself to feel angry doesn't mean that you'd have to allow yourself to curse him out or do something else that is over the top. But allowing yourself to feel anger would give you permission to expect him to step up to his own responsibilities instead of your bending over backward to please him. Hell, we aren't discussing here an emegency situation. It wasn't as if a child was hemorrhaging and needed to be gotten swiftly to the hospital. A visit with Grandmom isn't an emergency. If your husband gets out of wack for something that trivial, he has major problems that he needs to resolve, and if he can't or won't resolve them, he will never be the kind of husband who will make you happy. Your enabling him only prevents him from becoming a fully functioning father. It's the type of situation that all parents have to figure out.
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Post by elynne on Apr 2, 2018 17:15:31 GMT -5
"DryCreek - your comments and suggestions are precisely what the best “secure attachment style” partners do. " And if one is securely attached to an asshole, a narcissist, an abusive person, etc., the behaviors that were referred to will keep one securely attached to that dysfunctional person while that dysfunctional person remains dysfunctional. And that dysfunctional person Wlll Not Change. Because no one can change another person, and a person who is abusive, narcissistic, etc. does not want to change. I''m in a study in which every month I fill out a survey about my relationships. Every month for the year or so this has been going on, I get a score that says I'm securely attached to my partner. It's a nice place to be -- because my post SM partner is a man who loves me back. I don't have to beg, plead, cajole, repeatedly explain as if to a toddler to be treated with respect, romance, love and sensuality. His actions don't include the 4 horsemen: stonewalling, contempt, defensiveness, constant criticism. Sure, as is the case with people who are normal, sometimes he needs coddling or some special handling or understanding just like I do. But it isn't something that either of us has to be constantly prepared to do. And it's something that goes both ways. Sometimes I get upset and I need some TLC and understanding and he gives it to me. The problem I see in the OP's situation is that she is always the one who has to make the special effort. I don't see any point in attempting to be securely attached to a person who is a person whose actions are selfish, criticizing and stonewalling. Confident detachment would seem far more appropriate. This is where I’m waffling a little. Secure attachment style partners can calm and balance out anxious partners. Over time the anxious partner can move to a more secure attachment style. Avoidants present a bigger challenge. Their defense strategy is to avoid what causes them stress. The anxiously attached partner feels anxious and reaches for her partner. The partner can provide reassurance. There is an exchange. But the avoidant, feels a subconscious fear that they will be rejected and preemptively distances from the partner. Their stress level decreases because they’ve removed the stress inducing stimulus (the partner, intimacy, closeness, vulnerability). The “undesired” behavior is self-rewarding. But in theory, avoidants can move to a more secure attachment style. If he’s really trying to change, then the least I can do is be as clear as I can about what I want in a partner and to support his attempts to evolve into a more supportive and loving husband. If he tells me he doesn’t want to bother doing that work, that’s an obvious deal breaker. If he makes an honest effort but falls short - that becomes a trickier call. What amount of change is enough? What exact things am I unwilling to compromise on and with what things is there some wiggle room? Are there timelines? Deadlines? If you’re not a passable excuse for a good husband within a year, it’s over?
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