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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 16, 2016 9:59:40 GMT -5
Sounds to me that this marriage is pretty much universally understood to be toast, including by your therapist, who is just waiting for one or both of you to have the guts to officially end it. Meaning you, since your wife never will, she's too busy feeling sorry for herself and crying in the corner from the safety of her old pizza boxes. My ex and I went to two couples therapists. One I loved, he was great and it was fascinating to hear my ex say things in therapy---like admitting he had erectile dysfunction---that he never admitted to me. Then I had a brief but torrid affair and said we had to address the sex issues pronto which therapist #1 felt we should see a specialist for. So we found a sex therapist who was completely useless. I mean, this woman inspired zero confidence. I don't know if she was acting dumb or just was dumb, but the whole thing was a complete waste of time and money. Both therapists said that 9 times out of 10 people come to them when it's already too late. I don't think this is just an excuse for not being able to fix marriages. My experience and that of others I know who have gone to couples counseling are of two groups: 1. People like us where the marriage has been dead for a long time and we've just been trying to keep the body warm and 2. People who have essentially solid marriages but need help getting though a rough patch. The vast majority are in group #1. Sex is the thermometer that tells you what the temperature of your marriage is---it in itself is not the temperature. If your sex thermometer reads "stuck in a giant block of ice," that means the marriage has been dead for a long time. My conclusion from all of the above and years on EP and here is very simple: once the sex is dead, so is the marriage, and there is no bringing it back. Well, I've only seen my personal therapist three times now, and Friday will be our third session with this couples counselor. I don't know that I think they have the full picture in their minds yet. But I do know that the majority of my friends are sure that it's over. I have no clue what her friends think, but then again, I don't know what she's told them either. I think, deep down in places I'm only starting to allow my mind to dwell for any length of time, that I've felt for a while that the lack of sex and affection has meant that this marriage is long over. But also still struggling with the "done everything I can" part a bit. I guess I need hear a strong enough affirmation from one of the therapists that I've done everything that was expected of me. In my mind, that would let me know I am now absolved of any further responsibility. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 16, 2016 19:17:28 GMT -5
"When was the time you were last really, truly happiest in your marriage? What did it look like to you? What was your home life like?"
This was about halfway through my individual counseling session today, after I'd unloaded about everything that had happened since last Friday. The answer was easy- that lovely Memories feature on Facebook had been reminding me, no, mocking me about it for the last several months.
"Three years ago. 2013, right around this time... Before we were married...and before I moved in with her."
I paused, as everything clicked in my head for me. Thinking of phrases she's repeated so many times that I've become desensitized to them, lest I let them make me angry or frustrated again.
"Go on..."
"I was elbows deep in school, and she was working crazy long hours at her last job, before it started getting bad. We were seeing each other 2-3 times a week, and mostly keeping up via text or Gchat..."
The more I talked, the more sense everything was making. The same lines she's been throwing at me for a couple of years now, since quite shortly after I'd moved in with her, two years ago this month:
"This was so much better when you weren't always here. I feel like I can't get away from you. And you used to not be nearly so needy."
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Post by baza on Aug 16, 2016 19:35:31 GMT -5
That's interesting Brother CT.
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Back in the day, when my missus and I started living together, we didn't see a lot of each other due to her profession involving a significant level of night work and weekend work.
And, this seemed to work out pretty well, although we both thought it would be even better if we were together more, in "normal" sort of hours.
But after our first kid, she only worked part time, during the day, for a few hours and consequently we saw as much of each other as a "normal" sort of couple would.
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We thought this would be good.
It turned out to be the opposite.
We were NOT good together over extended periods.
We had limited tolerances for each other.
It turned to shit.
No-ones "fault" really (although we didn't have too much trouble in finding faults in each other to point out !!!!)
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Where we went wrong was that having discovered the incompatibility, we ought have ended it.
But we did not.
It dragged on for another couple of decades.
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 16, 2016 19:51:42 GMT -5
That's interesting Brother CT. - Back in the day, when my missus and I started living together, we didn't see a lot of each other due to her profession involving a significant level of night work and weekend work. And, this seemed to work out pretty well, although we both thought it would be even better if we were together more, in "normal" sort of hours. But after our first kid, she only worked part time, during the day, for a few hours and consequently we saw as much of each other as a "normal" sort of couple would. - We thought this would be good. It turned out to be the opposite. We were NOT good together over extended periods. We had limited tolerances for each other. It turned to shit. No-ones "fault" really (although we didn't have too much trouble in finding faults in each other to point out !!!!) - Where we went wrong was that having discovered the incompatibility, we ought have ended it. But we did not. It dragged on for another couple of decades. That sounds very familiar. I think it honestly worked out more in her favor during that time. I *wanted* to see more of her, but I was so distracted, stressed, and exhausted all the time with being a full-time engineering student and a part-time intern, that I was ok with the seeing each other a couple of times a week, and once a week (or every couple of weeks) sex. When school finished and I started working, and I had all this free time and lower stress level, I wanted to go *do* things, and I wanted her to come along. And I wanted to make up for the lost time when I'd been in school. It wasn't that my needs had changed, it was that I was suddenly able to fully realize them, instead of pushing them aside for the future "payoff." Suddenly, it was the future, and I was ready to jump back into it head first. She felt like I was all of a sudden around all the time, I was needing too much of her, and she'd lost the ability to keep me at arm's length that work and school had conveniently created for her. I'm bringing this up in counseling on Friday; I honestly don't think she's ever thought about it that way, or really seen what the whole thing has looked like from my side. Any time we've talked about it previously, it's always been about how it's bugging *her.* |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 16, 2016 23:55:08 GMT -5
So, quick update. She came back Sunday, and we've slept in separate rooms the last two nights. I've been doing my own thing like I established last week, and it's been going just fine for me- prepping meals, walking the dogs, etc. She's having a much rougher go of it. She told me last night that she feels like we're strangers (welcome to my world), and that she'd had a panic attack and was taking Xanax. I asked her if it was anything she wanted to talk about and she said no. I asked her if it anything she wanted to write down to talk about later (as recommended by our counselor), and she thought for a minute and said no. Not knowing what else to do, I went back to doing all the things I needed to get done, when she abruptly got off the couch and went to the bedroom, in tears. I knocked on the door to ask if she was OK, and she told me she just wanted to be alone. Several times she's told me that she hates this. So far, I've avoided the temptation to remind her that this didn't just happen overnight. I slept in the spare bedroom last night. I see my therapist this afternoon- this should make for one hell of a discussion. This girl just doesn't know what she's letting go of Tiger. She's looking for something with, well, less passion and love really. She can't handle the Tiger in you. It's a good job there are women who can. Xxx |
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 17, 2016 8:17:53 GMT -5
This girl just doesn't know what she's letting go of Tiger. She's looking for something with, well, less passion and love really. She can't handle the Tiger in you. It's a good job there are women who can. Xxx Thanks, sweetie.  Wife was in a workshop for work all day a couple of hours away. From her Facebook, it sounded really cool, and it looked like she was really excited about it- I was genuinely interested in hearing about it when she got home last night. She got home, I asked her how it went, got two words in response as she made a beeline for the bedroom. Shortly after I heard the TV fire up. I slept in the spare bedroom again last night. |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 17, 2016 8:44:50 GMT -5
Sounds like she exhausted herself bullshitting the world  |
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 17, 2016 8:46:41 GMT -5
Sounds like she exhausted herself bullshitting the world She does often. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 18, 2016 9:42:15 GMT -5
Worked till midnight, got home and she was still awake. I said hello and she might've muttered something back as I changed, but her eyes were firmly glued on the Real Housewives of Wherever when I tried to make other remarks about things.
Another night in the guest room.
I got up this morning to pack my lunch, and had to work around a full pizza box and salad box wedged in the fridge.
Three days ago she told me she needed to be better about eating cleaner, and I told her there were chicken, rice and two different kinds of cooked vegetables, both on the short list of vegetables she'll eat, in the refrigerator. And even though I'd been working 10-12 hours a day, I'd managed to go grocery shopping, prep, cook, and clean up all those things, and have them stored and ready for the week.
Oh, and I'd made a salad and stuck it in the fridge like she'd asked, right before she asked me to also pick up cookies, crackers, soft drinks, chocolate milk, and buttery microwave popcorn. You know, because clean eating.
Nice to know my efforts are being appreciated.
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Post by cagedtiger on Aug 18, 2016 20:39:42 GMT -5
Wife had the second part of that workshop a couple hours away. I'm working late to meet a deadline, but I went home, ran the dogs around, fed them, and took care of the cat and cleaned up some in the kitchen before I came back to work. Texted the wife to let her know the animals are taken care of.
Half an hour later:
Her: "okay."
Me: are you on the way back?"
Her: "yes."
Me: "drive safe."
Her: "okay."
Couples counseling is gonna be a blast tomorrow.
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 18, 2016 21:35:02 GMT -5
It's gonna be tough going I think Tiger!
X
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 21:45:17 GMT -5
Worked till midnight, got home and she was still awake. I said hello and she might've muttered something back as I changed, but her eyes were firmly glued on the Real Housewives of Wherever when I tried to make other remarks about things. Another night in the guest room. I got up this morning to pack my lunch, and had to work around a full pizza box and salad box wedged in the fridge. Three days ago she told me she needed to be better about eating cleaner, and I told her there were chicken, rice and two different kinds of cooked vegetables, both on the short list of vegetables she'll eat, in the refrigerator. And even though I'd been working 10-12 hours a day, I'd managed to go grocery shopping, prep, cook, and clean up all those things, and have them stored and ready for the week. Oh, and I'd made a salad and stuck it in the fridge like she'd asked, right before she asked me to also pick up cookies, crackers, soft drinks, chocolate milk, and buttery microwave popcorn. You know, because clean eating. Nice to know my efforts are being appreciated. If she puts this much effort into eating better she's not going to put much more into making this marriage better. In fact from your reports I see about zero effort. I don't see a whole lot of enthusiasm coming from your side either. You're doing the homework, you're doing all kinds of things for her, you're putting forward effort, but I get the feeling that if she suddenly got the memo and genuinely desired a more intimate marriage, you'd balk. You're done, man. Your tank is empty. Which still leaves me wondering what you're hoping to accomplish. |
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Post by unmatched on Aug 18, 2016 22:12:06 GMT -5
It sounds like you are furious with her right now at the way she is behaving. I know I would be. And you are trying to balance making an effort to be civil and keep things together with feeling absolutely livid underneath. If you can find a bit of space to let go of all the anger for a bit (or beat the crap out of a punchbag for an hour!), I wonder what is left? You might find a calm place underneath it all where you know what you want to do next.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 18, 2016 23:47:49 GMT -5
I love NYG for this: Sex is the thermometer that tells you what the temperature of your marriage is---it in itself is not the temperature. If your sex thermometer reads "stuck in a giant block of ice," that means the marriage has been dead for a long time.
And CagedTiger - you want to be absolved by WHO exactly? Nobody but you two know the true experience of this marriage. There is no one outside the marriage who can tell you: you've done everything required by this "Decent Human Checklist" you are free to go.
I don't mean it harshly. I struggled around with "did I try EVERYTHING?" for quite a little bit. I finally had to lower the bar to: did I try everything that I have the tools for? Did I bring it up year after year (YES). Did I do so as patiently as I was able (YES). Does he engage when I cover this topic AGAIN (nah). Does he seem interested in changing (nope). Are we both as contented as HE is (Hell to the NO).
It came down to getting my exit plan together and when it was ready, then writing my missive (and getting feedback from one sister and a trusted sensei/advisor from this group - so both genders were represented in the input), then delivering the decision and executing the plan. There is a certain point where you can't count on the advice of a therapist - - that is, you need to know what you want to do given that you are not in charge of the spouse and she's shown no indication that she can or will meet your "constant neediness" with loving affection. You know? The outsiders don't know (even the ones that agree or disagree) - - they just can't know what it is like INSIDE the marriage. YOU have to decide what is right and if you gave it enough effort. (Be sure you've seen the lawyer before sharing a decision to leave...major things can be affected like shared assets, health insurance coverage, etc)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 0:31:05 GMT -5
Sounds to me that this marriage is pretty much universally understood to be toast, including by your therapist, who is just waiting for one or both of you to have the guts to officially end it. Meaning you, since your wife never will, she's too busy feeling sorry for herself and crying in the corner from the safety of her old pizza boxes. My ex and I went to two couples therapists. One I loved, he was great and it was fascinating to hear my ex say things in therapy---like admitting he had erectile dysfunction---that he never admitted to me. Then I had a brief but torrid affair and said we had to address the sex issues pronto which therapist #1 felt we should see a specialist for. So we found a sex therapist who was completely useless. I mean, this woman inspired zero confidence. I don't know if she was acting dumb or just was dumb, but the whole thing was a complete waste of time and money. Both therapists said that 9 times out of 10 people come to them when it's already too late. I don't think this is just an excuse for not being able to fix marriages. My experience and that of others I know who have gone to couples counseling are of two groups: 1. People like us where the marriage has been dead for a long time and we've just been trying to keep the body warm and 2. People who have essentially solid marriages but need help getting though a rough patch. The vast majority are in group #1. Sex is the thermometer that tells you what the temperature of your marriage is---it in itself is not the temperature. If your sex thermometer reads "stuck in a giant block of ice," that means the marriage has been dead for a long time. My conclusion from all of the above and years on EP and here is very simple: once the sex is dead, so is the marriage, and there is no bringing it back. Well, I've only seen my personal therapist three times now, and Friday will be our third session with this couples counselor. I don't know that I think they have the full picture in their minds yet. But I do know that the majority of my friends are sure that it's over. I have no clue what her friends think, but then again, I don't know what she's told them either. I think, deep down in places I'm only starting to allow my mind to dwell for any length of time, that I've felt for a while that the lack of sex and affection has meant that this marriage is long over. But also still struggling with the "done everything I can" part a bit. I guess I need hear a strong enough affirmation from one of the therapists that I've done everything that was expected of me. In my mind, that would let me know I am now absolved of any further responsibility. Even if you did everything you possibly could do, you'd be right where you are now, because you can't change another person. Go ahead, make a list of as many things as you can think of to try to fix your marriage, then do them all, every single one. And it won't make squat difference because the one thing you can't do is change her. The question to ask yourself is not, "What else can I do," but "What is she doing?" |
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