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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 20:22:34 GMT -5
Ah, Ted. I'm so sorry. She's as scared as you are but for different reasons. She's keeping you bound to her with empty promises. Breaking free will be like sawing off one of your own limbs. Sometimes, you need to do the exact opposite of what makes sense. Sometimes you need to enter through the back door and then dance out the front. First, keep the divorce moving. Do not under any circumstances call it off. Try doing the opposite of what everyone says or thinks. Start dating her again. Treat her like a new girlfriend. The wait three months before sex and no kissing on first date. Shake hands or give her a chaste hug as you drop her at her door. Hold her back. Don't let her lure you into bed. Make her play the game. You are in control. Don't let her lure you into bed. No matter how much you think you want her. Continue the dating process until you figure it all out. Don't let her lure you into bed. Do I need I say that again? rhapsodee Sorry, I agree with Rhapsodee that it would be okay to see her, but do not do anything until you understand exactly, is she only just considers you as the giver and she wants to be with that person. She has to change. You both have to change. Good luck again!
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 10:59:03 GMT -5
1. You aren't living together and haven't for more than two years. 2. She hasn't change in more than 15 years. What is the probability of her changing once divorce proceedings are underway? Only one way to find out, turn the lawyers loose. I'm not a betting man, but I'm betting that she won't change. [....] What change is fair for me to expect? What I've hoped for is that she'd start doing something, initiating things that make me think "Oh, she likes me. Oh, she wants me. She can use her sexuality to communicate with me." I don't have an exact thing for which I'm looking. I'm thinking I'll know it when I see it TM. I've given many examples in many past conversations: drop by unannounced, look me in the eyes and say something nice, call to say something nice, drop by instead of hanging out with my mom (long story), wear the perfume you know I like when we trade the kids, drop by instead of hanging out with your friends, sympathize and talk about one of the many things I brought up in counseling, etc. If she "got it," if she really wanted me or at least her marriage, wouldn't she do something, anything? Even if she didn't understand it, wouldn't she rack her brain for one of the things I've said over the years and at least try it? Even if she were hurt. Even if she thought I had a lot of fault too? If she's been listening, she'd know my core complaint is that I can't see and feel that she loves me. Love tries stuff, right? Even before a commitment?
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 11:20:30 GMT -5
Ted - If you split up and she goes on with her life with a different attitude - then - so be it. Staying will not make her be what you want and it will not love her out of her attachment or emotional issues. That's not how recovery works. IF she feels she has an issue AND she wants help with it, then she would begin with a therapist/counselor. She would do the emotional work that she needs. [....] The agonizing part is that she says she's done work with her therapist, and by reading. She says she will be living with a different attitude, that she wants attachment, that "of course I want sex," and that I'd see that if only we were "trying" together. I guess I've been hoping I'd see some signs from the outside: she'd talk about concrete things she's learned or read, she'd talk about things from her past she never talked about before, she'd talk about some of our past relational falterings and how she could now see how it must have been for me, or whatever. The only things I've observed are: she hung curtains and bought some throw rugs for the house, and she's said, a few times, "Before, I was afraid to feel feelings, good or bad, but now I'm not." Oh, and maybe three instances of reset behavior or whatever---throwing herself at me physically after conversations where she's way angry and says we're done. Gosh that makes things confusing. So her offer and my dilemma: Commit, and suddenly you'll see a new me. And, I don't feel like I love you or want you right now, but if we were committed and "tried," as God intended, hopefully that would develop. For her, the right thing is to stay committed and trying, regardless of how she feels about it. For me, I don't get why this hasn't been "trying" all along. My door's been open; I haven't changed my phone number. We run across each other while trading kids multiple times per week.
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 11:32:03 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that doesn't get you a pass on choice. No-one gets a pass on that. I do appreciate the reminders that I'm an active party here and have a choice. It's easy for me to get stuck endlessly, trying to divine what path fate has already decided I take, as if my life's history has already been written, and I'm just feeling my way around in the dark trying to stay on that path. Too much scifi and astrophysics?---Oh, wait, I almost totally forgot about growing up in a God-has-one-plan-for-you family and church. If you don't figure out what he wants and do it, I don't know what happens, but it ain't good. I think you leave the rails and have shipwrecked you life. You know, like most all those people out there in the world---especially divorced people, I think. </sarcasm> (As an aside, I'm really sorry for what the church has done to fuck everything up. I do believe there's a God, and he's quite disappointed with his misrepresentation.)
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 19, 2016 11:36:37 GMT -5
Ted - If you split up and she goes on with her life with a different attitude - then - so be it. Staying will not make her be what you want and it will not love her out of her attachment or emotional issues. That's not how recovery works. IF she feels she has an issue AND she wants help with it, then she would begin with a therapist/counselor. She would do the emotional work that she needs. [....] The agonizing part is that she says she's done work with her therapist, and by reading. She says she will be living with a different attitude, that she wants attachment, that "of course I want sex," and that I'd see that if only we were "trying" together. I guess I've been hoping I'd see some signs from the outside: she'd talk about concrete things she's learned or read, she'd talk about things from her past she never talked about before, she'd talk about some of our past relational falterings and how she could now see how it must have been for me, or whatever. The only things I've observed are: she hung curtains and bought some throw rugs for the house, and she's said, a few times, "Before, I was afraid to feel feelings, good or bad, but now I'm not." Oh, and maybe three instances of reset behavior or whatever---throwing herself at me physically after conversations where she's way angry and says we're done. Gosh that makes things confusing. So her offer and my dilemma: Commit, and suddenly you'll see a new me. And, I don't feel like I love you or want you right now, but if we were committed and "tried," as God intended, hopefully that would develop. For her, the right thing is to stay committed and trying, regardless of how she feels about it. For me, I don't get why this hasn't been "trying" all along. My door's been open; I haven't changed my phone number. We run across each other while trading kids multiple times per week. Oh she's a master manipulator! If you have the spine and can stomach the gall it would require, pitch the hardball back to her - She may no longer be afraid to FEEL feelings but she is scared as the devil to talk about them and/or to make her behavior match what she is feeling. "Of course she wants sex" sounds as hollow, to me, as hearing my mom tell me when I was young "you know your Dad & I love you" (no - I did NOT know that and saying it in words in between treating me like a nuisance is not very convincing either!) Tell her you want to see her change, hear some "from the heart" discussion and then you may be willing to try but that you do not understand how the past X period has NOT been trying. By you not retaining representation YET and initiating formal divorce proceedings, you have apparently been the only one still trying - what the hell has she thought you were still doing...hanging on because you're afraid to be alone? (Oh - I guess that is HER tactic?) Maybe I'm just projecting but she is fearful of losing something - namely her control over you. IMO. Sorry Ted - you're up against a fairly strong demon here. She's may keep lobbing reset sex at you with a vengeance but I don't believe her heart and spirit are even related to her control tactics. Good luck, man.
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 11:39:10 GMT -5
[....] ted I knew from the beginning that my H had issues with emotions and I even confronted him about it before we got married. He acknowledged that he struggled with expressing his emotions and said he wanted to change. That was like lighting a fuse under my desire to "help" him become comfortable with his feelings. I was determined to be the woman who opened him up [....] Gosh, this is going to make me look stupid, but: I honestly didn't see it coming. That's probably because we met when I was 16 and she was 15, and were married just before I turned 21. Don't get married young, kids! People would occasionally ask me, "So do you think her past (orphan in Russia till teens) will have any affect on your relationship?" I'd say, "Well, you'd think, right, but I honestly don't see any problems. Maybe they'll come out later in life---shrug and nervous chuckle---but it sure seems fine now." I kid you not, that's darn near verbatim.
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 11:41:43 GMT -5
ted , that sounds like a cron job (sorry, nerd reference) Or these days, a systemd timer.
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 11:54:00 GMT -5
ted I must admit I am curious. After being separated for some time, and all your conversations being apparently very superficial, and with your wife unwilling to talk about it and saying, 'It's your job to pursue me; you're the one who left.', why is it that you want this relationship back? What are you looking for/expecting? What do you honestly think this relationship is going to look like? And why do you think you have not been able to shift your mindset and at least start looking at other options? I want to answer you, unmatched, but I'm not sure I know the answers. I've always thought that life was going to turn around, tomorrow. She'd somehow heal or finally see a therapist (she refused till we split), and then she'd be past whatever barrier there was to our connecting intimately---in all the ways we know a marriage should be. We've always gotten along, except when she gets angry. We've made fine business partners; I work and she stays home with the kids. We're pretty good parents together---well, okay, I have some concerns about how controlling and angry she is with the kids. So all we're missing is the connection. (I realize I've weakened my case a bit.) But we're both good people, so there must just be something in the way. I just gotta keep hacking away till I find and clear it. That's what my dreams tell me can happen, the dreams I think were necessary to survive 15 years. That's what my upbringing tells me---any two people can be happily married if they just try hard enough, otherwise God wouldn't make it this one-shot-can't-back-out kind of deal. That's what my family tells me---I must have done something wrong, she's such a sweet girl, "the husband sets the tone for the relationship." I'm not so sure what reality is telling me. But all my subculture has taught me says that bad stuff in reality is just a sign you're not trying hard enough or doing something right enough.
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 12:15:35 GMT -5
God Ted, I am so sorry you have gone through so much. It is difficult to know what the solution is but there is a lot of good advise here. I found out there was a personality disorder possible for people who are "caregivers, rescuers, or fixers". Let me tell you about my first marriage. I married the first (and only) girl I ever kissed. Looking back on it now I can say what attracted her most to me is I am a nice, solid, give the shirt off my back if you needed it guy. She was really emotionally screwed up by her family, mostly her mother, and needed a nice, solid, give the shirt off your back guy. She confided her problems in me and I felt I could so help her and she would love me so much for it. I did not know it but I was the rescuer in my first marriage. Because you used the term above, have you considered you may also have this problem? Gosh, there really is a lot of good advice here. I deeply appreciate it, everyone. If I seem thick, it's probably that half of me agrees with you but there's a big, thick part of me I'm fighting with. Wow, boulderbob, holy cow, this fits like a glove. (She never confided much in me, all of that's locked up deep inside where even she tries to pretend it doesn't exist. But I don't think that's a critical ingredient.) What a great set of resources, thank you. There's a lot to learn there. I thought the rescuing was a part of love. I'm not sure what I actually did to try and "rescue" her. I don't think I ordered her around or anything. I tried to be there, available, kind, dependable. I did ask, though not too frequently, that she consider counseling, given her history and our problems. (But she mostly denied we had problems, at least problems that weren't my doing. I was the monster who just wanted sex all the time and nothing else---you all know that drill, I assume.) I definitely enabled her to avoid her issues. Her MO really was to bury the past, and pretend problems didn't exist. Every morning she woke with no memory of the previous day, apparently. Like Dory. Nothing was ever resolved. And I had a choice---play along so as not to upset her, thereby having a chance at happiness, kindness, and maybe even affection that day; or stir up trouble and guarantee we'd be as distant as the US from Russia. Most times I chose to play along and hope. After all, it was closeness I was after, right? So, whatever it takes to get there must be the right thing, right? This is probably the #1 thing I've learned---with the help of counseling and friends---that I got wrong, badly wrong. But yeah, the force is still strong within me. Telling healthy love apart from codependency, appeasing, rescuing, etc. remains very hard. I'm scared I'll never figure it out, and I'll just keep hurting myself over and over.
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Post by wewbwb on Aug 19, 2016 13:38:21 GMT -5
ted Please do not feel "thick". Please do NOT beat yourself up. Speaking only for myself, I can see the solutions for others much clearer than I can see my own. I have, and continue to make, a staggeringly large number of mistakes. "I should have know better" is a reoccurring theme. I have contributed much to my own situation and NO ONE is solely responsible for state of our relationships. The question is this - "Are BOTH partners willing to put in the effort to make it work?"
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 19, 2016 14:13:55 GMT -5
ted, some perhaps obvious / lame suggestions... Coffee talk. Date nights. She should be able to have deep conversations with you about meaningful revelations from her therapy and studies, not just "commit and you'll see". And, short of moving back in to experiment, dating her again would set the stage for her to start exhibiting some of the changes she claims, in a setting that's free of household activities and kids. (And ideally, a setting where she can't jump straight to sex in lieu of demonstrating any real changes.) Those are my thoughts on how you might test the waters and see if any real change is to be had. Otherwise, it doesn't sound like she has much to lose by perpetuating your current arrangement. Being pessimistic, I'll observe that the alimony hole is being dug deeper with every year you let this arrangement continue.
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 16:13:37 GMT -5
ted , some perhaps obvious / lame suggestions... Coffee talk. Date nights. She should be able to have deep conversations with you about meaningful revelations from her therapy and studies, not just "commit and you'll see". And, short of moving back in to experiment, dating her again would set the stage for her to start exhibiting some of the changes she claims, in a setting that's free of household activities and kids. (And ideally, a setting where she can't jump straight to sex in lieu of demonstrating any real changes.) What would you do with the request for a six-month commitment? She wants my guarantee that I won't stop the counseling sessions, won't stop the three texts per week , won't proceed with the divorce, and won't have a relationship with someone else until at least six months have elapsed. Those are my thoughts on how you might test the waters and see if any real change is to be had. Otherwise, it doesn't sound like she has much to lose by perpetuating your current arrangement. Being pessimistic, I'll observe that the alimony hole is being dug deeper with every year you let this arrangement continue. In my state, it works in five year tiers. On the downside, I just crossed into year 16. On the upside, the next tier don't start until year 20. Now, considering the time value of money, our finite lifespans, the fact the clock hasn't started yet and I'm supporting her completely now, etc.---your point is very valid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 16:21:36 GMT -5
ted, I think the fact that you are not just blindly accepting "self-sacrifice" or "rescuer" as the solution in your relationship dilemma means you are going in the right direction. It is not only sex but her withholding intimacy that is very troubling. Especially for the length of time it has gone on. You must be certain that she proves that she understands the hell she put you through and will not resort to this tactic again. Ted, I felt that even though you may be in this category (caregiver/rescuer) that you are far from the only one on ILiASM, based on all I have read. It took me years to figure out how to ask for what I wanted and not automatically give her what I knew would please her. And that is okay to want to please, it is wonderful if two people try to please each other.(Physically, spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, etc.) Stay strong!
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Post by ted on Aug 19, 2016 17:38:40 GMT -5
It is not only sex but her withholding intimacy that is very troubling. Especially for the length of time it has gone on. You must be certain that she proves that she understands the hell she put you through and will not resort to this tactic again. If only I knew how to fully communicate that in a way she could understand. Ted, I felt that even though you may be in this category (caregiver/rescuer) that you are far from the only one on ILiASM, based on all I have read. It took me years to figure out how to ask for what I wanted and not automatically give her what I knew would please her. And that is okay to want to please, it is wonderful if two people try to please each other.(Physically, spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, etc.) Stay strong! I appreciate your encouragement. It is as helpful to know I'm not alone in what I'm learning as it is to know I'm not alone in my miserable circumstances. I wish you strength and peace too, my friend.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 18:11:39 GMT -5
"What would you do with the request for a six-month commitment? She wants my guarantee that I won't stop the counseling sessions, won't stop the three texts per week , won't proceed with the divorce, and won't have a relationship with someone else until at least six months have elapsed."... What is she committing to during these six months?
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